Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: 68DevilM on April 17, 2005, 06:34:33 PM
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heres the spec's
let me know if im makeing a good buy or not?
this is my first time puting one together from scratch.
motherboard. GIGABYTE "GA-K8NS PRO" nForce3 250 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU -RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU: AMD Athlon64 Processors(1600MHz System Bus)
Chipset: NVIDIA nForce3 250
RAM: 3x DIMM for DDR400/333/266 Max 3GB
IDE: 2x ATA 133 by chipset, 2x ATA 133 w/ RAID0/1/0+1 JBOD by GigaRAID IT8212 up to 8 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP 8X/4X, 5x PCI
Ports: 2xPS/2,1xLPT,2xCOM,1xLAN,8xUSB2.0(Rear 4),Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: Realtek ALC850 8-Channel Codec
Onboard LAN: Marvell 8001 Gigabit Ethernet
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x SATA by chipset, RAID 0/1 JBOD; 2x SATA by Sil3512, RAID 0/1
Onboard 1394: T.I. controller, 3 Ports
Form Factor: ATX
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113780561_13-128-241-07.jpg)
cpu.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113780581_19-103-464-04.jpg)
case.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113780532_11-147-006-25.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113780482_11-147-006-19.jpg)
plan on useing, my radeon 9800 pro 128mb, and a 80 and 120 gb hardrives, with my sound blaster audio 2zs gamer.
total price at newegg.com $481.47 us
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68Devil,
I can't give you advice about your system, but I can give you advice about asking for advice here - DON'T DO IT!
2 weeks ago I was ready to buy me a new system, then I asked about it on here, the same as you did.
Now, after all the advice from Skuzzy (thanks, by the way!) and everybody else, I don't know what to buy!
It seems like everybody has a different idea on what is the fastest, coolest, power saving, cheapest bang for the buck, system there is.
I think I'll just go back to PONG and my ATARI - life was so much simpler back then.......:(
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Originally posted by SKJohn
68Devil,
I think I'll just go back to PONG and my ATARI - life was so much simpler back then.......:(
lol:rofl
thats alrigtht sk, i just wanted to know if all this stuff was compatible with eachother, and i wasnt gonna have any problems.
ohh add 2 corsair 512mb DDR PC-3200 to the mix also:D
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Wow, I didnt know they made a 3700+ for the socket 754 board. Cool! That should rock!
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Everything looks compatable to me.
Just check to make sure you have enough power. At or over 300W should be good enough it seems.
Nice comp! :aok
-Paul
PS: is that 2 512 or 2 that add up to 512 RAM?
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rgr that..
yeah the tower comes with a 400watt PS
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What made you choose that board? Just curious if it was a money issue. If money is not an issue, I personally would go with a PCI-E video board (SLI preferably) and a better AMD 64 slot (900 series..forgot exact number).
If your not planning on upgrading than Im sure you'd be happy. I also have a friend that has told me on a few occassions that Gigabyte boards arent good quality anymore like they were years ago. Could be wrong..just passing that along.
MSI and ASUS make great boards..check em out
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im gonna go with the agp slot because my 9800 pro is only 4 months old, and im not ready to buy a new card yet,
ill check out the asus, and msi boards though...
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Originally posted by Ohio43
What made you choose that board? Just curious if it was a money issue. If money is not an issue, I personally would go with a PCI-E video board (SLI preferably) and a better AMD 64 slot (900 series..forgot exact number).
If your not planning on upgrading than Im sure you'd be happy. I also have a friend that has told me on a few occassions that Gigabyte boards arent good quality anymore like they were years ago. Could be wrong..just passing that along.
MSI and ASUS make great boards..check em out
Gigabyte is excellent, MSI has some great boards but not all. The best up and coming board is DFI. They snagged one of the best designers in the world...the 754 LanParty was his 1st board out and is the best overclocking board in the world. Anything from that one on should be great (older stuff I'd stay away from).
Gigabyte is good "stock" and easily overclockable. MSI is not as good "stock" (as a rule) but might have a bit of topend OC wise. ASUS is best "stock" but sucks to OC....LAN is worst "stock" but is rock solid OC'd and has highest component QC (basically designed to OC).....
So you need to know if your going to OC....if not
ASUS...maybe GB/MSI.....for sure DFI
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found this one humble for 108.00
DFI "LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb" NVIDIA nForce3 250GB Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 754 CPU -RETAIL
Model# LANPARTY UT nF3 250G
Item # N82E16813136147
Specifications:
Supported CPU: AMD Athlon 64 processor
Chipset: nForce3 250Gb
RAM: 3x DIMM Supports DDR266/333/400 Max 3GB
Slots: 1x AGP 8X/4X, 5x PCI
Ports: 2x PS/2, 1x COM, 1x LPT, 8x USB2.0(Rear 4), 1x RJ45, 1x 1394, 2x S/PDIF In/Out, Audio Ports
IDE: 2x ATA 133 up to 4 Devices
SATA/RAID: 2x SATA RAID with NVIDIA RAID 0,1,0+1,JBOD, 2x SATA by Marvell SATA PHY
Onboard Audio: Realtek ALC850(8-Ch)
Onboard LAN: Marvell 88E1111 GbE PHY
Form Factor: ATX
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113849783_13-136-147-02.jpg)
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as you can see it closely matches the GIG, except it has 4 slots for ram. and a little more expensive.
so wich one becuase im at the point where i stop researching and start typeing in creditcard #s:rofl
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Sigh...
Get the socket 939. Pay the extra little tiny bit, and just do it. Don't ask why, because if you've somehow rationalized the 754 over the 939 and you're not on food stamps and getting a second mortgage to pay for your upgrade, you're just not thinking straight. Read my lips. Don't get socket 754. Except for a couple of bucks right now, there is no benefit. Everything that works on a socket 754 works on a socket 939 board, except for the cpu. The only difference is that the socket 939 will be the same or faster in every possible measure, and it has many many more potential cpu upgrade possibilities in the future. If you're sticking with AGP as I did, being able to slap a fast new cpu in that sucker in a year or two may be even more important. Socket 754 = dead end, and to add insult to injury it's usually slower too.
If you're crunched on cash, start with a single 512 meg stick of memory and go for a second one later. Any pc3200 (ddr400) stick will work. If you already have DDR memory that you can reuse, just put it in and the mobo will detect the right speed even if it's slower than pc3200, and it'll work just fine. If possible, get an athlon 64 3000 or 3200 "winchester" 90nm cpu as well, because they run cooler. Get the retail cpu and heatsink because the retail A64 heatsinks work just fine even for mild overclocking, so you won't need to spend any more on a different heatsink and fan.
Work the rest of the parts according to your budget, but start out with a decent quality socket 939 motherboard. Unless you're on welfare, in which case buy a nice set of clothes for your next job interview instead.
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ugg 939 again!
i can find a agp with a 939 but i was told that 754 would be better for agp slots since everything will go pci-exp in a short time...
thank you for the info on 939's though, it has been in the back of my head, about the 754s being out of date sooner or later, but i justify it in saying to myself, that when its finnaly time to upgrade my video card again, that ill probably end up haveing to go pci-express, and will have to go with a new mobo cpu combo anyways...were talking a couple years down the road though.
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68Devil,
I warned you!!!!!!!!!:D
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Originally posted by SKJohn
68Devil,
I warned you!!!!!!!!!:D
:rofl :rofl so true:rofl :rofl
i dont mind though, im the one asking for advise.;)
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The only problem with your reasoning eagl, is that the man wants to stay with his AGP video card. And there IS a price difference, no matter how small you seem to think it is, between similar models of 754 vs 939. There is no real benefit to be gained right now (unless you can show me why I'm wrong) between a 754 vs a 939 motherboard other than the issue of future upgradability. Even that is still questionable IMO.
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Originally posted by eagl
Sigh...
If you're crunched on cash, start with a single 512 meg stick of memory and go for a second one later. Any pc3200 (ddr400) stick will work.
no way dude!!!:)
neweggs got a special running until tommorow...
2 corsair 184 pin 512mb pc3200 sticks for 89 bucks:D
im gonna grab them now
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
found this one humble for 108.00
DFI "LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb" NVIDIA nForce3 250GB Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 754 CPU -RETAIL
Model# LANPARTY UT nF3 250G
Item # N82E16813136147
Specifications:
Supported CPU: AMD Athlon 64 processor
Chipset: nForce3 250Gb
RAM: 3x DIMM Supports DDR266/333/400 Max 3GB
Slots: 1x AGP 8X/4X, 5x PCI
Ports: 2x PS/2, 1x COM, 1x LPT, 8x USB2.0(Rear 4), 1x RJ45, 1x 1394, 2x S/PDIF In/Out, Audio Ports
IDE: 2x ATA 133 up to 4 Devices
SATA/RAID: 2x SATA RAID with NVIDIA RAID 0,1,0+1,JBOD, 2x SATA by Marvell SATA PHY
Onboard Audio: Realtek ALC850(8-Ch)
Onboard LAN: Marvell 88E1111 GbE PHY
Form Factor: ATX
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1113849783_13-136-147-02.jpg)
Thats the board I have....best one I've ever owned by far.
It is a socket 754 board however, technically its a dead end. However, all those folks who bought best and brightest 18 months ago got hosed....same with those who bought "top end" 3 years ago. I figure in 18 months the 939's will be on the discount rack as well:)....but its a crap shoot for sure...
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The current difference between 939 & 754 is on the order of 1% according to all the benchmarks I've seen. If your going PCI-E I'd say go 939...for AGP 754 is fine. If you happen to pick the DFI board & hook it up with an overclockable GPU you can run rings around a 939/GPU running at stock...the DFI OC's better than any 939 board on the market and you can out perform even a OC'd 939 (personally see no need to OC either).....however the DFI isactually built to be OC'd so you can bump it 5% (or more) and its rock solid with stock cooling.
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im ordering now:D
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Star,
There are socket 939 AGP boards. Not that it matters apparently.
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finnal product.
MB DFI|NF3 LANPARTY UT nF3 250GB RT
CPU AMD 64 |3700+ ATHLON 64 754 RT
DDR CRSR 512MB X2 KIT|VS1GBKIT400
DVD-/+RW 16X RSWLL RD-162 BLK RT
THERMALGREASE MASSCOOL|STARS-700
CD MS|WIN XP HOME w/SP2
VIDEO RADEON 9800 PRO'
SOUND AUDIGY 2ZS GAMER
HDD 80GB & 120GB
400WATT PWR SUPPLY
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Originally posted by eagl
Star,
There are socket 939 AGP boards. Not that it matters apparently.
I think its a variable thing...I bought the "best" board last time figuring I'd skip a generation of MB and just up the CPU....so when my barton core 2500+ burned out..."TS"...either a sempron or upgrade...when the 64's came out all boards were 754...now they're obsolete....I hear rumblings the 939's will be gone in less than 2 years for 940's or other as well. I currently have 5 generations of AW/AH machines running in my house and none of em were really upgradeable...
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looks good 68....run some benchmarks and let me know what you get:)
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youll have to tell me how to do that?
i know im a newbie:o
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nevermind, i found a benchmark utillity.
but what am i looking for?
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Originally posted by eagl
Star,
There are socket 939 AGP boards. Not that it matters apparently.
I'm aware of that eagl. I wasnt trying to knock your post to make him aware of the 939's either, I was pointing out that even a similar board in 939 costs more than the 754 variant. I respect your opinion, you've helped me out more than once. I'm just saying, to you 50 bucks might not be a big deal, but to me it could make the difference in whether or not I make my car payment this month. This isnt my only hobby, and some of them are far more expensive than computer parts. For what I've spent on guns and ammo this year alone (and its only April), I could have bought a kick-ass system. Maybe 2 if I got a deal. I try not to assume that the other guy can necessarily afford to go up that extra little bit. I know there are advantages besides the PCIe for the 939, but it didnt really seem to matter to him. If you can show me a 939 board that is within 20 dollars of the equivalent 754 board somewhere, I'd jump on your bandwagon in a heartbeat. I simply havent seen one. For the money, and considering he will eventually have to upgrade again anyway, he might as well go with the 754.
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Star,
I wasn't trying to sound snippy so I'm sorry if it came off that way.
I just looked at the rest of 68's parts list... A64 3700... 2 sticks of memory... It's not a budget buildup by any definition of the term, so why get the older socket and single channel memory controller?
Yes, he'll have to eventually upgrade but AMD has said a few times that their dual core cpus *should* plunk into socket 939 boards with just a bios update. Time will tell, but with the release of the dual core opterons around a month away, right now seems like a silly time to put big money into a socket 754 board. Just going from an A64 3700 to a 3500 or 3200 would have saved enough cash to get a premium socket 939 board and have enough left over for a whole lot of beer.
But of course it's pretty much all opinion, so my last thought will be that every single major review site will recommend a socket 939 motherboard for gaming, because when you're putting together a gaming rig, $50 for socket 939 is a drop in the bucket compared to the price of the other parts. Socket 754 is a "value" part, just like the sempron. There's nothing *wrong* about that, but it's not the best part for the highest performance.
If 68 had dropped a sempron or A64 2800 into the rig, then maybe I could see some sense in it, but he didn't.
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Just spend the extra $$$, get one of these and be done with it.
(http://www.parlament-dental.hu/old/img/computer.jpg)
{of course all gaming hardware sold seperately}
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what the hell is that thing>?:confused:
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Originally posted by eagl
Star,
I wasn't trying to sound snippy so I'm sorry if it came off that way.
I just looked at the rest of 68's parts list... A64 3700... 2 sticks of memory... It's not a budget buildup by any definition of the term, so why get the older socket and single channel memory controller?
Yes, he'll have to eventually upgrade but AMD has said a few times that their dual core cpus *should* plunk into socket 939 boards with just a bios update. Time will tell, but with the release of the dual core opterons around a month away, right now seems like a silly time to put big money into a socket 754 board. Just going from an A64 3700 to a 3500 or 3200 would have saved enough cash to get a premium socket 939 board and have enough left over for a whole lot of beer.
But of course it's pretty much all opinion, so my last thought will be that every single major review site will recommend a socket 939 motherboard for gaming, because when you're putting together a gaming rig, $50 for socket 939 is a drop in the bucket compared to the price of the other parts. Socket 754 is a "value" part, just like the sempron. There's nothing *wrong* about that, but it's not the best part for the highest performance.
If 68 had dropped a sempron or A64 2800 into the rig, then maybe I could see some sense in it, but he didn't.
Dual core Opterons being launched Thursday (21st), expect socket 939 Dual Core around June. Yes they will drop into 939 boards with a BIOS update.
Big advantage will be being able to run 4 dimms at full speed at command rate 1.
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Correct me if Im wrong guys, but wasn't there some sort of quirky problem with NForce3?
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DOH! I had forgotten that. I just read an article last month on that too. I'll see if I can dig it back up.
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Well, this isnt the article I read, but it addresses the same issue. But it only appears to affect newer processors, not older ones. I know there were some performance issues with the nForce3 150 chipsets vs the 250, but I cant remember what the problems were. Anyway, heres the article. This one's from CeBIT.
PROBLEMS APPEAR to be affecting Athlon 64 revision E chips on some Nforce 3 and Nforce 4 motherboards. Symptoms include motherboard shut down and failure to boot, according to reports here from CeBIT.
Revision E chips from AMD are just released and brings stuff like SSE3 support inside a 90 nanometre die. AMD on the other hand didn't make a big noise about its announcement.
We learned that if you have this Athlon and already have Nforce 3 or Nforce 4 board that there is a big chance that you may encounter problems. We are told that AMD changed its thermal regulation protection and that's what makes it incompatible with at least some of the Nforce 3 and Nforce 4 boards out there.
In order to solve these problems, new motherboards might be necessary and there doesn't appear to be an instant fix. We are attempting to gather more details here in Hannover.
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This little upgrade writeup is a classic example of what's being recommended for gaming upgrades on a budget.
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU4
$500 towards higher framerates and highest potential for upgradability. If I recall correctly it's an nforce4 PCI-x board, but there are equivalent nforce3 AGP boards available for the same price.
As for problems inherent to NF3 and NF4, I know that some NF3 and older A64s have problems with running 1T command rate when all 4 memory sockets are filled, but I recall reading something about that being at least in part due to the cpu, not the mobo chipset and that the issue has been dealt with in the current generation of parts. I run 2 sticks of 512 so I haven't had to deal with it, but if I wanted to add more memory I'd just bump the command rate to 2T and not worry about it.
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I agree that the 939 board is the "most logical". However over the last 3 years almost all the "cant miss" thoughts have been end run. The "18 month" rule seems more like the "18 week" rule right now. Another issue is the OS behind the dual core. Myunderstanding is that the dual core will have no positive impact on gaming applications and that its possible the 2nd core wont even be accessable under most circumstances. Given the fact that current high end chips are still ~$700 the 1st couple of generations of dual core chips will be at a steep premium. I honestly think by the time I'm ready to upgrade I'll get the same killer deal on a MB/CPU combo I got on the 754....computers are fast becoming like cars....buy a year behind "new" and save 40%....
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Originally posted by eagl
This little upgrade writeup is a classic example of what's being recommended for gaming upgrades on a budget.
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU4
$500 towards higher framerates and highest potential for upgradability. If I recall correctly it's an nforce4 PCI-x board, but there are equivalent nforce3 AGP boards available for the same price.
As for problems inherent to NF3 and NF4, I know that some NF3 and older A64s have problems with running 1T command rate when all 4 memory sockets are filled, but I recall reading something about that being at least in part due to the cpu, not the mobo chipset and that the issue has been dealt with in the current generation of parts. I run 2 sticks of 512 so I haven't had to deal with it, but if I wanted to add more memory I'd just bump the command rate to 2T and not worry about it.
Interesting read....personally I wouldnt buy a VIA chipset but thats simply personal experience...obviously they feel its a good board for the bucks. I got my DFI lanparty with a 3200+ for less 6 months ago then the price they quote for both....back then a 939 board was much higher and so were cpu prices.
THe one point I agree with is the support for the "FX" chipset....a much more likely upgrade then a dual core CPU (IMO). I'm using my old PC3200 mem but basically got a DFI lanparty & 3200+ (754) X800 pro for ~$600
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yeah, the reason i stayed clear of via is becuase i heard in here that via has problems when useing creative labs sound cards....
by the way humble, my new system hardware arives today....:D
i fell like a kid the night before christmas:)
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hehe.....
Have fun :)
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hers some beachmarks so far
memory read = 2970mbs
memory write= 1100mbs
memory latency=56.3ns
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humble is there a way to bump up my memory read and write?
also what do these numbers mean if anything?
2.5-3-3-8
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68Devil, and the rest, even Humble (jk)
good stuff here.
Sooooo is Anticipation equal to Realization?
Comon,,,,, sweet huh! Happy hunting. Thanks for the great thread.
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
humble is there a way to bump up my memory read and write?
also what do these numbers mean if anything?
2.5-3-3-8
THis is where youneed eagl and the other guys who really understand OCing....the 1st number is the one I think Iunderstand....lower is better. 2.5 memoryis better than 3.0 etc.
The other numbers are memory "timing" in the bios I believe. Basically the faster the memorycan process the more efficient the CPU cycles are. You can alter memory timing and overclock it but youneed real good top end memoryoor its unstable....
Do I have that right guys??
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Humble is pretty much right. Those numbers deal with memory latency and how long the computer waits for the memory to sort out an answer after getting a query. Memory isn't instantaneous so if you measure the response from a memory stick when you give it an address, the initial response may be just random garbage. So the motherboard has to wait a certain amount of time. And then once the answer is there, the quicker it's read the quicker it can go to the next address, so you don't want the answer to be available longer than necessary to be read. Those latency times adjust the wait time before it's read, how long to expect the answer to be available, and the delays before the next address is requested.
The first number is the typical "CAS level" you hear about and is often advertised as the memory speed. Cas 2 is usually the best, although there may be CAS 2 memory rated at 2-3-3-8 and another cas 2 stick rated at 2-2-2-6. The main thing to remember is that in general, the lower the number the better. Really high speed memory might typically be rated 2-2-2-6. Some overclockers have noted that some memory runs faster with the last number set at a specific value, not just the lowest number. I've read that the crucial chips in my computer run best at 2-2-2-10, but people have had good results with the last number anywhere from 8 to 11.
In any case, probably more important than that is the command rate. It's usually either 1T or 2T, and 1T is faster. Some people claim that it makes a huge difference, but basically they all affect memory response latency and bandwidth so any one setting by itself shouldn't kill or add tons of performance. Most athlon 64 systems produced up to now have had serious problems running 1T command rate when there are 4 sticks of memory installed, so you just have to increase it to 2T to get it to work right. I've read that this issue is actually a problem with the cpu not the mobo or chipset, and that AMD has sorted it out with their latest cpu revisions.
2.5-3-3-8 is just fine for normal memory. If you want to push it lower, go ahead but test the crap out of it using memtest86 before you boot into windows otherwise you risk hard drive corruption. Memory errors often don't immediately crash your system but they'll cause random errors and eventually that will kill your operating system or just make things not work right.
Sucky memory will be rated at like 3 5 5 12 or worse, so cas 2.5 is just fine. Since you're running a single channel memory controller, you may get higher performance gains from fast memory than someone on a dual channel controller, because you're on half the bandwidth so latency on that one channel is a bigger deal. I wouldn't spend hundreds of extra dollars on faster memory though, especially if you got a socket 754 mobo just to save $30 or so.
As a final note, many motherboards have preset options for memory latency. "normal" might be 3-4-4-10, "fast" might be 2.5-3-3-10, and "turbo" might be something like 2-3-3-8. The way to check is to get a utility like cpuz because it can check to see what the memory is running at. I think memtest86 also reports memory settings.
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How do you keep a fellow techie in suspense?
how's it flying?
Does it render Video movies faster/better?
Are you past the painful setup everyting yet?
do you have to find the keycodes to re-install text twist and Tetrus 4000?
Are ya getting MORE KILLS! (now we are getting down to the good stuff.
So Let us know how ya doing bro!
p.s. thanks Star, humble, eagl,devil68
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Originally posted by daMIG
How do you keep a fellow techie in suspense?
how's it flying?
Does it render Video movies faster/better?
Are you past the painful setup everyting yet?
do you have to find the keycodes to re-install text twist and Tetrus 4000?
Are ya getting MORE KILLS! (now we are getting down to the good stuff.
So Let us know how ya doing bro!
p.s. thanks Star, humble, eagl,devil68
ohh sorry daMIG been busy bingeing on AH:cool:
Graphics are great! now that they dont slow down my computer.
ill put the video movies to test when i start filming again, but im confident about the results.:aok
heres a very large picture
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1114291290_picture001.jpg)
MB:DFI "LANPARTY UT nF3 250Gb 754pin
CPU:AMD 64 3700 2.4Ghz 754pin
OOD:DVD-R, CD-RW COMBO
MEM:1 GIG Corsair DDR 400 (PC3200)
PWR:400WATT PWRSUPPLY
VIDEO:RADEON 9800 PRO 128MB
SOUND:AUIDGY 2ZS GAMER
COOLING: 3X 80MM CASE FANS
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hey humble did you everhave a problem getting your ethernet to work when setting up this board?
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i've found with ah...at 1200+ res. in furball...
500 $ will buy 50fps stock or 60+ tweaked.
750 $ will buy 70+fps stock or 80+ tweaked.
1000 $ will buy ...not much more than that...so dont spend it.
...comp only.