Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FUNKED1 on April 18, 2005, 03:31:15 AM
-
Who woulda thunk it, they aren't actually rich. Their claims of affluence are just a mirage, a statistical distortion. I guess I'll move to that other utopia, Canada.
NYT Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/weekinreview/17bawer.html?ex=1271390400&en=44ea05b3e068feb5&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss)
-
Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.
There, It's not 50$. Maybe with extra cheese it might be...
-
Here you can get two pizzas delivered to your door with 10€.
-
What this article failed to realize is that the value of the scandinavian system is based on fair distribution of wealth.
Nobody questions the living standards of the higher class americans. The gap in US is just way higher than in most other countries. A huge amount of people are living below poverty level in the US. Not so in scandinavia. You don't see homeless people wandering around the streets. You don't see people struggling with 3 jobs to make a daily living.
What you do see however is a large amount of young people living on social security that find thier lives so easy that they won't even bother to find work. The state pays the rent, gas, electricity and basic necessities such as food and clothing. They get enough cash per month to invest in new tv's, amplifiers, speakers etc. (well, after some saving at least.)
The difference really is that in the US the wealth is concentrated heavily on the rich part of the population which does its best to forget they have millions of poor people around the country. As a result US has high crime and fully populated criminal systems. A US catholic priest put it interestingly; in the US the criminal system plays the part of european welfare system. Only difference is that the US system of penalizing creates outcasts where the european system of welfare focuses on keeping people socially fit despite thier problems.
This produces safety because nobody is really forced to rob anyone for food or much anything else for that matter. Drug addicts are an exception naturally, but luckily in scandinavia even that problem isn't that apparent yet.
In US a succesful person can end up homeless if he gets sick and has to expend his medical insurance (or lack of one.) That is very unlinkely to happen in scandinavia. Healthcare is quite cheap and the system protects the workers from unlawful actions during sickness or similar phases of life.
The scandinavian system is far from perfect. But it is much safer for an individual in so many levels.
-
nobody is really forced to rob anyone for food or much anything else for that matter.
Same here too. Where is this place that forces people to steal?
-
Dunno.. I heard this place had over 12 million people living below poverty level and a bunch of homeless people to boot. Oh and the highest inmate levels per capita in any western country.
-
(The Scandinavian establishment) serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system.
-
Yes, how dare those stupid Norwegians measure quality of life in terms other than ostentatious consumerism and availability of cheap pizza?!? Burn them!
-
http://europa.eu.int/comm/regional_policy/sources/docoffic/official/reports/p122_en.htm
You can't deny statistics Funked.
-
so it sounds like the plan is to go to scandanavia, open a restaurant & dont pay your taxes
-
I heard this place had over 12 million people living below poverty level and a bunch of homeless people to boot. Oh and the highest inmate levels per capita in any western country.
Question: What percentage of 300 million is 12 million?
-
With a 4 percent poverty rate your country is on par with scandinavia.
My guess is however that due to bigger differences in income the poor in US have it way worse than the poor in scandinavia. Housing and food is the minimum. Reversely the rich in the US have it way better than rich in scandinavia.
Edit: I just learned I've been fluffied.
-
Life expectancy is higher in Norway too. So are literacy levels too. Burn them I say! Damn communists, how dare they not conform to the US model. :mad:
-
Lol funked.. the price for a pizza is hardly relevant :D
A few years ago when the $ was worth more it cost maybe 10$, but its the low value of the dollar vs the NOK that make it seem expencive. We dont pay in $ when we buy our pizza.
-
According to that article a teacher makes $50k and a pizza costs $50. A teacher makes about the same here and a pizza costs <$10.
According to the pizza index we are doing 5x better than you lutefisk fiends.:)
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Lol funked.. the price for a pizza is hardly relevant :D
A few years ago when the $ was worth more it cost maybe 10$, but its the low value of the dollar vs the NOK that make it seem expencive. We dont pay in $ when we buy our pizza.
You're not reading it thoroughly.
(An economic study) indicated that when disposable income was adjusted for cost of living, Scandinavians were the poorest people in Western Europe.
-
When does a teacher make 50$? In an hour, a day? what?
You can get pizza here for 10$ too btw.
lutefisik :D
mmm... lutefiskpizza
-
Show me that study please and who made it.
-
Look it up yourself. I'm not the one with the low standard of living. :rofl
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
When does a teacher make 50$? In an hour, a day? what?
You can get pizza here for 10$ too btw.
lutefisik :D
mmm... lutefiskpizza
50k/year
mmmm.....:)
-
A teacher makes 50k a year? Maybe.. im not sure what they make.
-
That means a teacher in Norway can only afford 100 pizzas a year. How do you stay alive? Welfare?
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
That means a teacher in Norway can only afford 100 pizzas a year. How do you stay alive? Welfare?
You forgot one zero.
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
That means a teacher in Norway can only afford 100 pizzas a year. How do you stay alive? Welfare?
First of all its 1000 not 100.
Welfare? We work around here funked, can't get welfare to get pizza. Do you get welfare for pizza in Aztlan?
-
We may be poor funked but at least we are allowed to see nipples!
:p
-
I did some calculations, and a large pizza at a resturant costs 28$ and about 30$ delivered to my house. Last year I made 121666,- USD in wages and I got 8333,- USD from my shares in the family business.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
What do you do for a living Nilsen? :)
I work in the family business. Its a machine shop that makes lots of little wired bits in all kinds of metal and plastic that are not made in enough quanities that warrants mass production. usually 1 to 1000 copies of the same item. I have 10 thumbs so I dont do any of the manufacture myslef, I do office stuff.
-
I thought it was $50 per slice?
I guess if Norwegians want to have as much disposable income (aka economic freedom) as we do, they will "just have to learn to work for their wealth ... which may take some getting used to."
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
I thought it was $50 per slice?
I guess if Norwegians want to have as much disposable income (aka economic freedom) as we do, they will "just have to learn to work for their wealth ... which may take some getting used to."
Ok, now I know you are trolling. :D
Spits out the bate and moves along.
-
He breaks boats, threatens techno-listening neighbours... and wears funny hats.
-
I would not make that if it wasnt a family business GS..
I dont really work alot, but I can never take some real vacation either, The phone rings all the time and i have to answer e-mails. I cant turn the phone off and the e-mails and faxes keeps comming. At some point we may have to hire one more person so I can be able to get some real time off. Its the downside to working in a small business with few employees. We are 3 people working full time and another 2 that helps out from time to time with production and running arends.
Lol Saw :D
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
I did some calculations, and a large pizza at a resturant costs 28$ and about 30$ delivered to my house. Last year I made 121666,- USD in wages and I got 8333,- USD from my shares in the family business.
Not trying to pry but what did you gross and net? ie, what was your tax rate?
-
This is before tax. I payed just over 30% tax last year.
-
Funked, since they apparently cannot challenge the data, I think it comes down to the fact that they believe in equal mediocrity for all.
I guess that's their choice.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
This is before tax. I payed just over 30% tax last year.
You have no sales tax? On food? on items? on gas? No property tax either? Just wondering what the real number is, you ever keep close track to see where its going?
-
You got it spawn. The ones who want to get rich always have the option to move to US and then come back home with thier tail between thier legs if they dont make it.
It's nice to know you have a safe haven to come home to.
-
There has been no data posted really. The article in question has not put up _any_ evidence or linked to any sort of source. Everyone can say that "studies have shown" and so on.
-
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
You have no sales tax? On food? on items? on gas? No property tax either? Just wondering what the real number is, you ever keep close track to see where its going?
There is a tax on pretty much everything you buy.
-
I am Spawnicus!
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Now ... who the hell is this Spawn shade account?
He must be new to this place GS, dont be so paranoid :D
Welcome to this BB Spawn, its always nice to meet NEW people. :)
-
Thats what I was thinking Nilsen, you pay 30 percent income tax but 25 percent for sales, property taxes like 300 percent gas taxes.... My point being 30 percent of income taxes are just the tip of the iceberg. In contrast, I don't pay any sales taxes and gas taxes here are about 20 percent maybe? I think your real tax rate is closer to 60 percent by time you do the math but you would know better tha I. You ever consider keeping track?
-
plus.... it's full of squareheads speaking jibberish and...
don't forget the ice bears.
lazs
-
you were allready mentioned above.
lazs
-
Yes. we pay alot of tax, no doubt about that. We still have alot of spending power and because the wealth is more evenly distributed the crimerates are also alot lower than many other countries. Nobody werever they live here needs guns or other weapons to stay safe. Nor do we need any sort of health insurance to get excellent healthcare.
But I think these things have been discussed a "few" times before.
-
Mmmmmmmmm kippers!!!!!
-
-spawn is another guy from AGW, funked cross posted.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Now ... who the hell is this Spawn shade account?
Spawn is the guy who originally posted this "article" on AGW and who has obviously come over as a result of the AGW fishies not biting today. He has a tendency to overestimate the import of journalistic opinion pieces and is fond of the old cut 'n paste. Sort of like a (barely) thinking man's Ripsnort.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Yes. we pay alot of tax, no doubt about that. We still have alot of spending power and because the wealth is more evenly distributed the crimerates are also alot lower than many other countries. Nobody werever they live here needs guns or other weapons to stay safe. Nor do we need any sort of health insurance to get excellent healthcare.
But I think these things have been discussed a "few" times before.
I own a large number of firearms not because I fear for my life but simply I like the sport.
You also don't have the diversity the US has which promotes a fair amount of crime.
For the most part, any decent job will give you full insurance in the US. The vast majority who don't have insurance are working as store clerks etc... This is fine if you don't mind living near poverty but most anyone who is motivated can get a good job with free insurance.
-
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
I own a large number of firearms not because I fear for my life but simply I like the sport.
You also don't have the diversity the US has which promotes a fair amount of crime.
For the most part, any decent job will give you full insurance in the US. The vast majority who don't have insurance are working as store clerks etc... This is fine if you don't mind living near poverty but most anyone who is motivated can get a good job with free insurance.
Its good that you dont need the guns, but I have read many posts on this board by people claming they need them to feel safe in their own home or when walking the streets.
What diversity are you talking about?
-
Originally posted by Momus--
Spawn is the guy who originally posted this "article" on AGW and who has obviously come over as a result of the AGW fishies not biting today. He has a tendency to overestimate the import of journalistic opinion pieces and is fond of the old cut 'n paste. Sort of like a (barely) thinking man's Ripsnort.
Actually as much as Spawn and I spew venom at each other and disagree on everything and would like to see each other arrested he's a sharp guy who makes some good points.
Welcome Spawn.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Its good that you dont need the guns, but I have read many posts on this board by people claming they need them to feel safe in their own home or when walking the streets.
What diversity are you talking about?
It all depends on where you live. I just don't choose to live in high crime areas. I have never lived anywhere that would cause me to lock my doors or be concerned about being a victem of crime. Don't forget that the US is 3500 miles wide by about 2000 miles N/S. It's a huge country with just about anything you can think of for climates and societies.
Diversity is mostly what you see in a city. In some cities the are a lot of diverse but rundown areas which have serious crime. I'll wager that these few places account for the majority of US crime statistics.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Rabbidrabbit, what's a "large number of firearms"?
well, not that large... about a dozen of assorted pistols/rifles..
-
I don't have any numbers on where the crimes are so you may be correct on that.
Anyways.. its not possible to run a country like ours without the heavy taxes. If we did then 90% of our population would have to live in just a few cities and that is not an option.
-
Good! I'm glad to hear you Oil spewing polluters are dirt poor. You deserve it!
:)
But seriously I do belive this story, my sisters boyfriend is Danish and he complains of the high taxes, the high prices, the old junker cars everyone os forced to drive and all the other things forced on them to maintain this woderful nordic sense of egalitarian medoiocrity...
-
Originally posted by GScholz
Ok? So what's the problem? We got more guns per household here than you guys have.
But going by this article you prolly have no money for ammo...
-
From Encarta:
The population of Norway is 4,574,560 (2004 estimate).
The Norwegians are a remarkably homogenous people of Germanic origin.
Apart from several thousand Saami and people of Finnish origin in the northern part of Norway, the country has no large minority groups.
Norway is home to small numbers of Americans, Britons, Chileans, Danes, Iranians, Pakistanis, Swedes, and Vietnamese, among other groups.
You don't think this makes a difference? Basically one common culture in a very small country, sharing a common history, common social mores over a very long period of time? It's what he meant before when he mentioned "diversity".
-
Airhead...
and hat tip.
I like being surprised by people. Thx. For what it's worth, I like your nice guy with salient opinion approach best. :)
***
Yes, I'm from that other BB and came over based on Funked's comment that he posted here.
In any event, I think the interesting point is where different societies place their priorities. Personally, I prefer a society where high achievement is rewarded. However, I can certainly understand the case where a society decides that it's most important to put at net at the bottom to catch anyone who falls.
PS - Anyone who says that this is an editorial without any supporting data should see http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/. I suspect that the other report referenced in the editorial is also out there.
-
my sisters boyfriend is Danish and he complains of the high taxes, the high prices, the old junker cars everyone os forced to drive and all the other things forced on them to maintain this woderful nordic sense of egalitarian medoiocrity...
Why the heck isn't he getting his bellybutton to US if he has it so bad then?
The thing about taxes is that everyone moans about them while paying but gladly accepts everything when it's served to them.
I'd be on the streets today or dead without the social safety. It helped me to get through extremely tough times and I'm grateful for it.
-
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
What this article failed to realize is that the value of the scandinavian system is based on fair distribution of wealth.
That statement in itself says it all... now I see where the liberals get their training, they goto Europe!
Tell ya what. When the day comes that the government feels that it needs to redistribute the majority of my money to those that are "less fortunate" or do not have the gumption to work harder or put themselves out to get ahead, is the day I will participate in the rise against the system. What you are peddling is nothing short of socialism that in the end stifles the individual for the supposed good of the whole.
To get it straight, I have no problems with economic assistance to those that are less fortunate, but I do have a problem with those that abuse that system. We, in the US, do not have a model system of welfare, as a matter of fact, it is abused horrbily and sponsors much waste and corruption. That is the result of a two party syustem that seem to do nothing but fight back and forth over whose way is better, neglecting the people in the process.
My thought on the perfect welfare system, is one which denies no one health care, and teaches economic responsibilty and the need to work to those dependant on the system. They can do as they like with their money when they are out of the system, but while on it, they will work, will take birth control, and will be responsible with their monies which includes groceries for their families and contribution towards getting off welfare (future career). If they want to go to school, fine, thats great, all for bettering ones self. They will maintain a part time job while doing such, whether it is a state sponsored job, or they find it themselves. In the end, I feel these ideas could and would help to make a better society, and might even bring back some of the work ethic that much of this country is missing, and show the folly that socialism really is.
That said, I still feel our way is better, with all it's warts, which is why we are still existing and thriving.
-
Originally posted by -spawn
I prefer a society where high achievement is rewarded. However, I can certainly understand the case where a society decides that it's most important to put at net at the bottom to catch anyone who falls.
High achivement is rewarded here too. The more you achive, the more you get in return. Simple really.
-
High achivement is rewarded here too. The more you achive, the more you get in return. Simple really.
Sure, except that your tax burden is much higher.
Norway, 2002 Total Taxes, as % of GDP:
44.2%
US, 2001 Total Taxes, as % of GDP:
28.9%
Source: "Structures of the taxation systems in the EU: 1995-2002", 361 pages, ISBN 92-894-7733-4. The publication is available free of charge in PDF format on the Eurostat website. Data for US is OECD.
Oh, that and the fact that your cost of living is much higher.
In either case, it's not as simple as saying that you get greater reward (compensation) for greater achievement. Relative to the US, you pay a greater percentage in taxes, and have to spend more money (on average) to achieve a similar standard of living.
-
For the higher taxes we get cheaper healthcare, almost free education... etc.
In which you americans loose *alot* more money.
It's not THAT easy to compare it, because it is a very complex issue.
Needs to think of all the things which are affected.
I think Norway has the highest taxes of scandinavian countries, including Finland.
(AFAIK) Which again has something to do with keeping the northern norway habitated by backing it up financially.
-
The more you achive, the more you get in return. This is not even worth debating, its a fact.
Yes... we pay more taxes but we get more in return from it too. It is not _possible_ run Norway with your tax level. I bet that taxes will have to be raised in the US too soon.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
I bet that taxes will have to be raised in the US too soon.
Depends on the consumption.
The US system relies more on the high consumption than the high taxes.
High taxes would cut down the consumption, which wouldn't really help.
Again.. AFAIK.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
For the higher taxes we get cheaper healthcare, almost free education... etc.
In which you americans loose *alot* more money.
It's not THAT easy to compare it, because it is a very complex issue.
Needs to think of all the things which are affected.
I think Norway has the highest taxes of scandinavian countries, including Finland.
(AFAIK) Which again has something to do with keeping the northern norway habitated by backing it up financially.
Yes. Our geography and the low population relative to the size of the country it is very expencive to "run". Norway is not a big flat country, the infrastructure alone is very expencive to maintain and then you have school, hospitals etc.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Depends on the consumption.
The US system relies more on the high consumption than the high taxes.
High taxes would cut down the consumption, which wouldn't really help.
Again.. AFAIK.
Yeah, but in order to maintain a very high consumption there also has to be plenty of cheap raw materials and exports should exceed or atleast be equal to imports.
-
Not to mention the taxes and fees the employers have to pay. If you are paid 50k a year before taxes, the employer has to pay around 100k in total.
-
Originally posted by mora
Not to mention the taxes and fees the employers have to pay. If you are paid 50k a year before taxes, the employer has to pay around 100k in total.
were?
-
here.
-
there?
-
Btw, I just got back home from school for the last time. I held my BSc thesis seminar today and passed with flying coulours! So on 20th next month I'll be an honourable BSc in Automotive and Transport engineering.:)
Free education isn't too bad actually...the state even paid me $400/month for studying. I hear they pay you like $1300 in Norway??
-
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
What you do see however is a large amount of young people living on social security that find thier lives so easy that they won't even bother to find work. The state pays the rent, gas, electricity and basic necessities such as food and clothing. They get enough cash per month to invest in new tv's, amplifiers, speakers etc. (well, after some saving at least.)
How is teaching your whole nation of young people to be parasites good?
-
Congrats mora :)
We have free education and we get some money. I'm not sure how much and the amount varies based on a few factors. Usually half the money is given to you and the rest is a loan.
You can choose private education too, and I did. Mostly for practical reasons.
-
Nielsen, does your Government provide you with that gay little hat you are so fond of wearing? I ask cause someone mentioned your Gov't. provides you with clothing, but if my Gov't. made us wear those stupid hats I'd immigrate.
-
No. I had to save up for the hat myself.
-
but I have read many posts on this board by people claming they need them to feel safe in their own home or when walking the streets.
Really? Show me a few of these many posts.
-
If you ever visit America (especially Texas) don't wear that hat or someone will shoot you.
-
Originally posted by Airhead
If you ever visit America (especially Texas) don't wear that hat or someone will shoot you.
So I would need a gun to defend myself if I went to texas wearing it?
-
There was a spell of crazed killer hats invading Texas a few years ago. That makes folks like Airhead a but jumpy. just tell them that yours is an sleek new Euro import and they will be flustered.
-
Should I wear a sign so the snipers get the message too?
-
How is teaching your whole nation of young people to be parasites good?
Nobody said it was good, but it's a far better option than driving the same people to crime or on the street.
The governments are slowly waking up to this and start to set mandatory community service etc. to get them to move thier asses.
I was in the above situation for 3-4 years after I finished my military service. I had no direction or a job for that matter.
Now I'm the second biggest shareholder in a software company (after going through about 10 different professions in between.) The government helped me to get to my feet once, now it's time to pay it back. I have no problem with it really.
-
Not to demean your situation, but two points:
1) People aren't typically driven to commit crimes. They choose to commit them.
2) I was probably just as directionless as you were after I finished college. However, I didn't end up on the dole. I went out and got a job.
-
Originally posted by -spawn
Not to demean your situation, but two points:
1) People aren't typically driven to commit crimes. They choose to commit them.
2) I was probably just as directionless as you were after I finished college. However, I didn't end up on the dole. I went out and got a job.
Beat me to it Spawn. I get absolutely livid when I hear folks make comments about how society drives people to commit crimes or become drug addicts or whatever. Its not society....its a personal choice made by the individual who did the action. In my opinion, people spend too much time trying to find blame for the situations they are in and not enough time taking responsibility for the situations that they caused themselves to end up in.
-
Spawn it's a fact that many people are driven to crime because of thier living conditions.
It's not always possible to find a job immediately and you got to eat and pay the rent. Once a person gets hungry enough - or once a person listens to his child cry hunger for a day or two, crime starts to feel very appealing trust me.
Would I have been employed faster if I didn't have the option for benefits? Sure.
I could have lost my appartment in the process, though, and end up in the streets forever. It's extremely hard to find a job if you've slept on the street for a week with dirty smelling body odor and broken clothes.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Should I wear a sign so the snipers get the message too?
Yup!
Heeres ur sign!
-
So, is there an upper class, or upper middle class in Norway, or is everyone pretty much relegated to the same economic level, with no hope of achieving wealth through honest, hard work, like here in America?
Whew...long sentence.
-
geeze what a wussy bunch... you guys feel that without everyone paying for you that you would be dead or on the streets? that you can't make it on your own so you have to pay the hugely ineficient government to take care of you cradle to grave? You feel that you must be punished every day with high taxation?
All that would be great if you would allow those who want nothing to do with it to simply opt out.
lazs
-
What and let the hard workers prosper to the max extent of their abilities???
Wash your mouth out with soap!
-
It's undoubtly as hard for you to understand our society as it's hard for us to understand yours.
As I said, anyone has the option to leave to a country like US if they're greedy and after big bucks. They'll be welcomed back for thier retirement or after losing it all in US.
Many people choose to return here after thier professional careers for some reason. They must like the inefficient system for some reason.
Heck, even scandinavian ice hockey pro's who earn millions in NHL return to local hospitals for operations. They must love the inefficient and bad healthcare system of ours.
-
Do I understand that right? Only the "greedy" ones want to prosper to the max extent of their abilities? And if so, they should move to the US?
Can you clarify?
-
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
As I said, anyone has the option to leave to a country like US if they're greedy and after big bucks..
Get 'em, Scholz.
I'm glad you're don't let him say stuff like that and get away with it.
-
I could have lost my appartment in the process, though, and end up in the streets forever.
Don't you have a family?
Granted, I understand that there are people who don't have family, or whose family would chose not to help, or whatever. But the vast majority of us should have someone around who can lend a hand, right? And for the others, I can cope with the idea of some sort of social welfare since they don't have other options...
Spawn it's a fact that many people are driven to crime because of thier living conditions.
It's not always possible to find a job immediately and you got to eat and pay the rent. Once a person gets hungry enough - or once a person listens to his child cry hunger for a day or two, crime starts to feel very appealing trust me.
Um, no, most commit crime because they choose not to pursue non-criminal options for moneymaking (for whatever the reason).
I'm not proposing that social welfare be eliminated. So, whether it's the US or Norway, there's no reason that kids should go hungry... we both have more than enough social welfare to provide for that sort of thing.
As for someone being driven to crime... why is that? Is that because they're not willing to work two jobs to make ends meet? Or because they aren't willing to be a burger-flipper, janitor, garbageman, or ditch-digger? Most of the time there are choices other than crime. Of course, it might be easier to commit the crime than work two jobs at minimum wage... but don't claim that you were driven to commit it.
-
Originally posted by -spawn
Sure, except that your tax burden is much higher.
Oh, that and the fact that your cost of living is much higher.
In either case, it's not as simple as saying that you get greater reward (compensation) for greater achievement. Relative to the US, you pay a greater percentage in taxes, and have to spend more money (on average) to achieve a similar standard of living.
Then again one country is completely without foreign debt while other one is in bad debts and loaning more money from around the world.
One is practising a policy which in long run literally pays back with the interests while other one is the one who shovel out the money for paying their debts and interest paids.
-
Change the subject, eh?
PS - Bad debts? Oh really?
-
7,782,816,546,352$ In Debt which is about 26000$ per US citizen.
I'd say that's quite much but of course your mileage may vary.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/08/opinion/main686839.shtml
Then in the Norway...
Norway has been saving its oil-boosted budget surpluses in a Government Petroleum Fund, which is invested abroad and now is valued at more than $43 billion.
No foreign debt at all; they are the ones who are collecting the money from you.
-
Of course you don't have any foreign debt, you don't have massive world responsibilities either.
PS - Bad debt = defaulting on debt, we haven't done that... perhaps you want to brush up on all that economics stuff?
-
Originally posted by -spawn
Of course you don't have any foreign debt, you don't have massive world responsibilities either.
Yeah, its smart to not start wars without a very good reason.
-
Lets not forget one simple fact: Europe can afford its lavish egalitarian welfare systems because papa USA has been providing and paying for much of the defense for his little darlings across the pond for the last 60 years... This is not boasting, this is not bashing, this is not taunting - it's simply fact and it was neccesary considering the cold war. So please Europeans keepo that in mind when you heap praise on "your" wonderful social systems and bash the USA for spending too much on the military instead of healthcare or education..
However, when that protection ends, and it will, Europe will either be defensless or they will have to seriously reconsider their welfare spending. Especially considering Europes ageing and declining population which will provide a much smaler tax base of working young people to feed the government cauffers. Maybe you think the EU can be a world power without any realy military responsibilities, like Japan maybe? Well, lets be honest here, who has defended Japan?
Maybe China will provide for Europe's defense whwen the USA no longer does? OPr maybe you will have to reconsider your social systems..
-
The USA has been in europe due to its own interests, not just for its good will of defending europe.
-
The USA has been in europe due to its own interests, not just for its good will of defending europe.
True, but irrelevant with regard to this protection enabling Europe to create its redistributionist social welfare utopia.
-
Toad: Get away? With what?
Greed = Not wanting to share your own with the less fortunate up to an extent of changing your location for it.
So if you're greedy you have the option to move to 'less limited' US where the hard work can be paid off.
One aspect of this hasn't been discussed at all: were you aware that europeans work much much shorter average working hours per week? Enough so to explain the differences in income.
So it's the US way of hard work and high returns with little sharing opposed to valuing both more free personal time and sharing your fortune with the misfortunes.
-
Originally posted by Staga
Then in the Norway...
No foreign debt at all; they are the ones who are collecting the money from you.
Great....then why dont you guys go take care of all the problems in Africa that we supposedly dont care enough about that people always bring up as a retort when anybody mentions that Saddam had to be removed from power.
-
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
Add up the expenditures.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/active-force.htm
Add up the troop strengths.
I think you'll find that, at best, the material numbers are similar... but the European capabilities typically fall short due to underinvestment.
And don't even ask about defense spending as a percentage of GDP:
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2665&sequence=3
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=2
-
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So it's the US way of hard work and high returns with little sharing opposed to valuing both more free personal time and sharing your fortune with the misfortunes.
We have plenty of sharing. It's just that we like to accomplish it voluntarily and not by government coercion.
-
Scandinavian countries alone have 3,5million men and women who have gone thru military training.
Try to remember that it's mandatory around here.
-
Yes, we understand well that you have been heavily indoctrinated by your government. They control your physical life by drafting you and then they control your economic life by drafting your wages. Someday hopefully we can bring you the freedom.
-
Originally posted by Staga
7,782,816,546,352$ In Debt which is about 26000$ per US citizen.
I'd say that's quite much but of course your mileage may vary.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/08/opinion/main686839.shtml
Then in the Norway...
No foreign debt at all; they are the ones who are collecting the money from you.
US g'vot assets estimated in the range of $200 trillion, assets about 30 times debt, like you own a $250,000 house & a $800 credit card bill shows up, but at the lowest possible interest rate. The US should borrow more, but the rest of the world doesnt have enough to lend.
-
The USA saved Norway's tulips in WW2 and in the cold war. For this alone you should be ever beholden to the USA and should ape their socio-economic system at every turn to show your appreciation. Using your oil revenues for the common good instead of enriching a select few makes you little better than dirty marxists; you need to immediately invade a 3rd world country and steal their resources. Only then will you have proved your "capitalist" credentials and be worthy of the "freedom" bestowed upon you.
True, but irrelevant with regard to this protection enabling Europe to create its redistributionist social welfare utopia.
No, it is totally relevant. Assuming for one second that the USA defended europe out an altruistic desire to maintain the freedom of it's constituent democracies, then it follows that nations such as Norway are at liberty to choose the course of their own domestic policy with a clear conscience. On the other hand, if as could be more realistically argued, the US defended europe to maintain it's own sphere of influence, then the point is moot.
But this begs the question; if the US system is so self-evidently superior, then why are you here evangelising?
-
Originally posted by Momus--
The USA saved Norway's tulips in WW2 and in the cold war.
Heh and I thought Norway was occupied by Germans in ww2... Just shows how one can learn something new every day :)
-
Originally posted by Staga
Heh and I thought Norway was occupied by Germans in ww2...
That's right, and the germans were ejected from Norway by an elite US force consisting of flag waving petty-nationalist intardnet bbs warriors led by Chuck Norris, so NEVAR FORGET, ok?
-
lol Momus :D
nice try
-
Originally posted by sling322
Great....then why dont you guys go take care of all the problems in Africa that we supposedly dont care enough about that people always bring up as a retort when anybody mentions that Saddam had to be removed from power.
Actually we do contribute alot to africa. The norwegian goverment just decided to give another 1,6 billion NOK to Sudan.
-
Originally posted by slimm50
So, is there an upper class, or upper middle class in Norway, or is everyone pretty much relegated to the same economic level, with no hope of achieving wealth through honest, hard work, like here in America?
Whew...long sentence.
There is no classes or segregation, but if you make little money you have less than if you make alot. Logical isnt it?
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Yes, we understand well that you have been heavily indoctrinated by your government. They control your physical life by drafting you and then they control your economic life by drafting your wages. Someday hopefully we can bring you the freedom.
lol funked :D
Don't have time for this, I have to finish Pravda before my work at the collective.
-
Fact is that when EU gains more power someone has to lose some and that someone is NATO.
Hurrah for EU Army!
-
you guys crack me up.... withiout the government you will sit on the street and starve? flapping your arms like pitiful little flightless birds... a single tear going down your lilly white cheek every once in a while
Do they hold the spoon for you while you eat?
what is your unemployment rate?... defense spending?
And... can any of you euros tell me how many Americans starved to death before our fairly recent welfare system kicked in? We won't count hunger strikers and those who were mentaly unstable tho..
If even one person is making less than another then... by your defenistion... isn't the one achiever being "greedy"?
If socialism is a good thing then wouldn't communism be even better?
and... why do you discriminate so much against colored people?
lazs
-
And if someone wants to question the capabilities of a conscript army, ask the Israelis.
Not the same situation. Israel is constantly under threat and has a highly motivated citizenry.
As a result Europe can muster a huge well-trained army, but only has to pay for a fraction of the cost of a similar sized professional army.
Theoretically.
Practically... they can muster a so-so trained, part-time army, using not-quite-up-to-date equipment. Oh, and they can't deploy very far or very fast without US assistance.
I believe tankers call these people "crunchies."
Europe combined has more than 4,000 combat aircraft, and if they were integrated into a “Euro air force” it would be the largest air force in the world.
Thankfully there's some quality here too. Still, since you mentioned the Israelis, you'll note that quality generally beats quantity by a wide margin in this area.
....
Anyway, the point (proven IMO) is that the European nations have habitually underinvested in their militaries (and that some contend this the US has helped to underwrite their socialist economies as a result).
In any event, GScholz, I appreciate your engagement... unlike folks like momus who talk about "cut & paste etc etc etc" but then fail to post anything other than low-value sarcastic responses. :)
-
Originally posted by -spawn
Anyway, the point (proven IMO) is that the European nations have habitually underinvested in their militaries (and that some contend this the US has helped to underwrite their socialist economies as a result).
If Europe has chosen to spend money on things that matter and not an aggressive military then that is a smart choise. Other nations spends incredible amounts of money but still fail to control "inferior" countries. ;)
-
nielsen... what do you do for a living?
lazs
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
If Europe has chosen to spend money on things that matter and not an aggressive military then that is a smart choise.
Yeah, it proved to be absolutely brilliant in the late '30's, didn't it?
It's OK, we've got you covered.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
nielsen... what do you do for a living?
lazs
I move paper around and answer calls, emails and faxes. I also do the marketing.
why?
-
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, it proved to be absolutely brilliant in the late '30's, didn't it?
It's OK, we've got you covered.
Who knows Toad.
-
Originally posted by GScholz
As for deployment, where would we go? A conscript army is a defensive army, it has no reason to deploy elsewhere.
The US doesn't deploy elsewhere either and their army is a defensive army too.
They use the so called pre-emptive defense. :D
-
act is that when EU gains more power.....
You better change this to "IF"... notice it's a big if.
The EU is barely held together and is a fractious lot.
I think if the EU can raise the standard of living for all it's citizens that it's a great idea. I also think that such a huge organization w/ such a diverse group of people, combined w/ the histories of said people, dooms the EU to failure.
OTOH the paranoia you Euro's feel about the U.S. might just be the tie that binds.
To whit: The Spanish leader's main argument that Spain needs to vote "YES" on the EU was that a "NO" vote would be good for the U.S.
Your Euro leaders have to get over their noodle envy. Europe has so much to offer in the form of history, culture, etc that the U.S. will never have, I personally don't see what the jealousy is all about.
-
Originally posted by Steve
I also think that such a huge organization w/ such a diverse group of people, combined w/ the histories of said people, dooms the EU to failure.
That sounds like USA to me :D
-
Originally posted by Steve
You better change this to "IF"... notice it's a big if.
The EU is barely held together and is a fractious lot.
I think if the EU can raise the standard of living for all it's citizens that it's a great idea. I also think that such a huge organization w/ such a diverse group of people, combined w/ the histories of said people, dooms the EU to failure.
OTOH the paranoia you Euro's feel about the U.S. might just be the tie that binds.
To whit: The Spanish leader's main argument that Spain needs to vote "YES" on the EU was that a "NO" vote would be good for the U.S.
Your Euro leaders have to get over their noodle envy. Europe has so much to offer in the form of history, culture, etc that the U.S. will never have, I personally don't see what the jealousy is all about.
one word "POWER"
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
That sounds like USA to me :D
Not at all.
-
What "power" would that be?
-
No blood for pizza.
-
That sounds like USA to me
There is some small commonality there but we do not have several Govt's trying to merge, you do.... very challenging IMHO.
It just seems silly to me that some of the Euro's feel the need to merge in order to compete w/ the US militarily. Not that they couldn't build a comparable or even superior force, numbers wise, just that they feel the need to do so in the first place. I know, many of you Euro's use the laughable guise of "we need to be able to counter the US militarily because they are an aggressive nation". As I said, I think it's envy on the part of some of your leaders.
I'm indifferent to the whole military thing. If it makes the Euro leadership happy to have 10 billion million trillion troops under one "flag" I say bully for them. I don't really see the need, unless some Euro leaders are secretly hoping/planning to oppose US policy in the world militarily.
If I am proven to be mistaken and the EU succeeds AND the masses of the EU benefit by achieving a higher standard of living, I will stand up and applaud.
-
can any of you euros tell me how many Americans starved to death before our fairly recent welfare system kicked in?
Terri Schiavo.
Here's a troll of a website for you:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/HiddenHolocaust.html
-
Just for the record. Norway is not part of the EU and I will continue to vote no every time it comes up.
I don't think its envy that makes the EU nations want to have a force or rather a command structure that is separate from NATO. Most of the EU nations are also part of NATO so its not to compete with their own allies.
-
siaf gets the prize. He correctly identified all the U.S. citizens who have starved to death before or after our welfare system kiked in.
lazs
-
It's very rare for people to starve to death in any country lazs. The number forced to crime for food is another discussion.
Lazs we're not trying to force out system to you any more than you're trying to force yours to us. I think it's quite a comfortable setting (at least for us) to have the option to migrate for aggressive moneymaking with having a backup plan in store.
Some people return naked through the consulate, having lost everything. They won't end up on the street on our system. Yours I'm not that sure.
-
you mean how many who know they are freezing to death actually do and how many are turned away from emergency wards?
lazs
-
I don't know... I do know that they need not in our society.
lazs
-
some are mentaly unstable and we allow them to do as they please.
as for medical procedures... if there were a medical procedure that we only did here and your government didn't send you here to get it... would that be considered letting you die of a curable disease?
lazs
-
Because teh Amreeka is not teh richest country EVAR like Norway!
-
Seriously, it's amazing how well the DNC have got their message out about socialized health care. Euros seem to know the DNC party line on this topic almost exactly. The problem is that the DNC does not tell the whole truth. America has an extensive socialized health care system. It's just that a lot of it is done at a county and state level and not at a federal level. And we expect that those who can afford to pay for their care will do so.
-
Well Funked I have to admit I don't know Jack about your country. I should visit sometime to get some clue probably.
-
It's OK, I don't know jack about any foreign countries myself. :)
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Because teh Amreeka is not teh richest country EVAR like Norway!
Finally you make som sense :) Im glad you came around.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Actually we do contribute alot to africa. The norwegian goverment just decided to give another 1,6 billion NOK to Sudan.
Well obviously it isnt enough since you still have a surplus.
-
Originally posted by sling322
Well obviously it isnt enough since you still have a surplus.
Having a huge defecit it not a goal even if some nations seem to strive for it :p