Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on September 11, 2001, 04:04:00 PM
-
Cowardice? Hardly...
If you take a look at what they've done, it's amazing. The brilliance of the plan, the courage of those that implemented it, the sheer audacity to even attempt it.
We must respond in kind with the same ferocity, courage and brilliance.
I fully and truly believe that we are up to the task, but we cannot underestimate the courage, intelligence or resolve of our enemy.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
-
Only a coward attacks those who cannot defend themselves.
I think they fully qualify to be called cowards.
-
Sandman, to call such a barbaric action "Brilliant" is a bit out of bounds.
However is not even brilliant. Its even NOT original (read tom clancy's "Honor Debt"). Any stupid after 2 months of FS2000 professional can direct a 767 to crash into a building.
The kidnapping part is still to be investigated. How did the terrorists get those plane's controls is somethign I still dont understand (moreover with the US airport security). But if terrorists figure out a way to smuggle a weapon into a plane, the other parts are easy to do.
-
So true...
They are heartless, coldblooded villains with no ethics or moral standards that I can possibly understand. But they were not cowards, stupid or mad. The sooner we realize that, the better we will be able to picture what is the real threat.
Nice heads up, Sandman
-
Sandman,
An act of terror IS cowardice. Committing suicide in order to "gain heaven" especially without a declaration of war by killing civilains is also the mark of a coward. They didn't try to take on those who could fight back. They chose to kill the helpless. Hardly the act of courage.
Mav
-
To take four aircraft in the United States in a single day is not the act of a stupid people. This was well planned and well executed.
I think it was the Cherokee or possibly the Sioux that believed you can measure your strength by the might of your enemy. Only weak countries have weak foes.
I knew when I posted this that it would be taken the wrong way. Don't get me wrong, whoever did this deserves our hatred.
As for courage, I look to McVeigh... a complete coward that didn't have the conviction to die and make the ultimate sacrifice for his cause. He ran away from the bombing like a criminal.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
-
Don't miss Sandman's point.
Apart from the "brilliant" word, that for sure hurts, I think it is crucial that all of us understand what we are facing.
I honestly think this is the prelude of WWIII. As somebody said, this will not be a conventional one. No one can attack US & allies, or US alone on a conventional way. Terrorism is the only way to really hurt us. You can insult the enemy, but one thing you should never do is let that insults blind you. We are facing a threat to our way of life, and our way of thinking. That is quite the same all over western countries.
These beasts will do whatever it takes (let it be killing civilians no matter if they use an airplane, a chemical, a biological or whatever weapon within his means) to overcome us. They are ready to face self-anihilation and now we tragically know they CAN organize and arrange complex plans. Do you feel better calling them cowards? So be it. I rather call them ENEMY.
These people has the willing and the means to do terrible, and I mean terrible, things. Wether they are cowards, villains, stupid, tards, whatever... is irrelevant. The only important thing is to realize that there are 2 clear sides on this issue. One is evident, vulnerable. The other one is sneaky and criminal. We must prepare and be ready. And the first task to success is knowing your enemy. We have a small taste of them in Spain. Let me tell you they are not stupid, and they are not cowards. They are evil.
-
I honestly don't see any briliance behind this attack... Anyone who has read Tom Clancy's books can come up with such a plan! I just jan't understand what is so important that so many innicent people have been murdered for it? :mad:
-
I stand by what I said. Courage is found in those who are willing to stare in the eyes of thier enemies, knowing either may prevail.
Cowardice is commiting suicide in the hope of murdering thousands of innocent, unarmed people.
This was a blatant act of cowardice. No matter how it got to this point. That is irrelevant. The act itself screams cowardice.
Understanding the enemy is paramount to defeating them. We know they have zero value for human life, they will not fight with any amount of honor, they consider suicide a good thing, they will not hesitate to murder children, women, or whoever they can that cannot fight back....hmmm,..did I leave out anything?
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy:
did I leave out anything?
Huhm. Yes. that hopefully they soon will be dead.
If this action is over with the four aircraft crashes and the bomb car in washington, I must add that they are both quite smart and immensely stupid. Smart because the plan was well coordinated and planned. Stupid because whoever he has done it has earned the world's hatred forever.
Terrorist actions are supposed to have the objective of winning a goal thru the use of terror and chantage. He who has done this has just won an accelerated travel to hell.
-
First, I agree with you MadBird... it's tragic.
But, it's one thing to read it in a Clancy book. It's quite another to go out and do it. I'm quite sure that Clancy left out many of the details that these people had to be aware of in order to accomplish this attack.
The media would have us believe that we are weak and vulnerable and that this is incredibly easy. Were it so, this would have happened long ago (and often).
-
Couple of important things, Skuzzy:
a) They are organized.
b) They have money.
c) They can identify & exploit weak points.
That's, IMHO, the scary things.
I think the act itself is from a diferent nature than coward. The ones doing it and the ones planning it have to have a pervert mind. It's more than coward or, if you want, it's not only coward. I don't think they being cowards/corageous is the important thing. They are the enemy. I, personally, want them dead, wether they are cowards or not.
-
You are right Pepe. Just got my dandruff up when Sandman inferred they were courageous. Nothing against you Sandman, I am, as many are, pretty upset and I tend to get vocal when I get upset.
-
if they'd had REAL balls they'd crashed MacDill or some other AF base. A military target, something that could have defended itself...
chicken toejam women and children murders - organized,yes - funded, yes - but still chicken toejams!
-
No worries Skuzzy. I knew this post would push a few buttons.
I look at it simply as this... giving your life in support of a cause takes courage.
Courage in battle is a hard thing to get your hands around. It's really easy to say it takes courage to look your opponent in the eye and then run him through with your bayonet. Absolutely, no argument. But it also took courage for our B17 crews to fly over Tokyo or Berlin and carpet bomb. The fact that many civilians were also killed doesn't diminish the resolve required to complete the task. We believe our cause was just.
Whoever did this views the U.S. as the enemy. I'm certain that they believe there cause is just. Their belief is as irrelevant to us as ours is to them.
Make sense?
-
It would have only made sense if the target had been a military one. To do this, and do this intentionally, to a civilian populace is cowardice. I cannot find any justification for this action, and I certainly cannot call who did it brave.
Beleive in all the causes you like, fight for them when they are in need of it, but to just murder thousands of people who could care less about your cause is flat out cowardice.
Our fellow countrymen and women who died today have no idea why they died. They were cold-heartedly murdered.
I was in the military. I knew any day could be the last. I knew if my country was threatened I would be called to arms and would give my life to defend it. These people had no idea, were not trained in this manner, and thier lives the lives of their families were ruined.
For what? We don't even know why yet. The cowards that did it will not jump up and claim they did it for thier cause.
Cowards. No better defination for it than the events that took place today.
You are right, I took the most obvious meaning of courage in my example. But, it does not take courage to murder people. It takes courage to stand behind your beliefs and defend them when needed, but to agressively pursue murder takes no amount of courage. There was no defense of any beliefs today. There were no outraged voices from those who would stand by thier convictions. There was only a cold hearted mass murder, which took zero amount of courage.
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: Skuzzy ]
-
I understand your point and it fits within the traditional sense of war.
War is basically about economics. Once you've decided to fully engage, then it's all about money. The USSR fully knows this lesson. We beat them at the bank.
These attacks were aimed at crippling one of our economic centers as well as our military center.
Granted... we're not dealing with a country. We're probably dealing with a group. A group that does not play by the rules of the Geneva convention nor to they care (or can they probably afford) to engage the U.S. in the traditional sense.
It certainly lacked honor.
-
Sandman: Don't confuse courage with hatred.
If you hate a country or a people enough you might be willing to give your life to achieve your ends.
If one of these terroist acts killed your family, would you give your life to get even? And doing so, would that make make you brave?
Olgzr
-
Originally posted by Olgzr3:
Sandman: Don't confuse courage with hatred.
and don't confuse it with stupidity either, these a-holes think they will be rewarded by ALLAH for their actions..
-
Terrorists indeed had a very well coordinated plan.. the one that takes years to implement... YEARS... my only 2 cents but to hijack 4 planes is not the matter of 1 months plan...
IMO they have personal working for them in those airline companies.. maybe even pilots were on their side... And they definatly were skilled in piloting aircrafts... FS2000 just wont do it...
-
My guess would be 50 to 100 terrorists involved in the planning and at least 3 to 4 for each plane.
You need at least 1 to pilot, perhaps 2 in case the first is incapacitated. Then you need 1 or 2 to control the passengers while the pilot flies.
While it's true that airport security is hardly airtight, think of the planning it took to get all four teams in place. We have not heard of any teams of terrorists who were prevented from getting onboard. Until we do, we must assume that only 4 were planned and all 4 were successful.
The amount of planning for something like this must be staggering. They took planes from 2 different airlines and 2 (3?) different airports. Each airline and each airport would have differences in security procedures which would have to be scouted thoroughly.
This has been in the works for months. And it would be easy to just say that someone in the counter-terrorist community screwed the pooch. However, the alternative is even more frightening. What if they did their job? What if the bad guys either found a whole in the system or maintained such security that we had no way of seeing it?
Money, time, planning, skills to fly a 757, willingness to die, knowledge of airport security, coolness to get aboard the planes, timing and coordination in the extreme, and the list goes on. This is not the work of a bunch of whackos with a cheap alarm clock and some dynamite. This was a professionally done attack.
-
I don't think the perpetrators were cowards.
When you attack an enemy it is stupid to not attack his weak spot. Since a small group would have no chance to attack the U.S. if they landed with some tanks on U.S. soil, the small group attacks in any way they can with most effect.
And as to the "they must have had a lot of people to do this" theory.
I still think that 12 people could do it.
-They decide the target(s).
-They go on an internet travel site, and check which flights will approach the target near-simultaneously. (easy in the eastern U.S. with so much air traffic)
-They book the tickets
-They go to the "departure" cities
-they board the aircraft
-they hijack the aircraft with two guarding the passengers the other flying the aircraft
-the passengers don't attack them because the terrorists say "stay calm.. as long as no one fights us..no one gets hurt.."
(in the Pennsylvania aircraft, they fight and the terrorists crash the aircraft, by onboard explosion from what some reports have said)
-they crash the aircraft into the targets
(passengers would realise the truth too late)
Depending on seat availablity.. it could be done in a few days by 12 people.
No need for a big international conspiracy.
Anyone one with MS Flight Sim could fly the aircraft enough to crash it into the targets.
A bunch of U.S. citizens like "McVeigh with brains" could have done it.
They were pros but there was no need for more than 12 people with knowledge and skill.
I once was on a holiday and went through the wrong doors and ended up outside the departure lounge in a hallway that led to the tarmac. I was able to get back inside without even having to go through the security area.
Not a nice thought at all... :(
EDIT: BTW Most Christians would be surprised at how similar Islam is to their religion. Hmmm.... Protestants killing Catholics even with the "thou shalt not kill". Read up and you will find the same "law" in the Koran.
Sorry but religion has nothing to do with it. Lunatics exist in every faith.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Snoopi ]
-
Get off his back guys.
Belittling the enemy never helped anyone. Brilliant just means "intelligent" and "capable" - no moral connotations.
The moral concepts you are using - "covardice", "honor" - are not applicable to their (terrorist's) culture. They have different moral values.
One thing is certain. We have to become ferocious. We cannot get every terrorist grunt, but we may hold their governments hostages.
Any government or leader should be afraid to give us a reason to suspect that it/he may be abetting terrorists. They and will be held personally responcible. Then we will have peace...
miko
[ 09-11-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
-
IMO they have personal working for them in those airline companies.. maybe even pilots were on their side... And they definatly were skilled in piloting aircrafts... FS2000 just wont do it...
Oh please... it takes 5 weeks and $3-5,000 to get a PPL in the States.
If during those 5 weeks you do FS2000 on the type of aircraft you plan to hijack you'll be more than qualified to not only to crash it into a building but with the aid of a handheld GPS receiver to fly it to wherever you want. FS2000 will cut it plenty :(
An act of terror IS cowardice. Committing suicide in order to "gain heaven" especially without a declaration of war by killing civilains is also the mark of a coward. They didn't try to take on those who could fight back. They chose to kill the helpless. Hardly the act of courage.
Mav - I'm with you on this one but you are applying "civilized" standards to it. F***king morons are at war - they declared it long time ago... They don't expect you to accept - you are a source of all evil, remember? :(
They are cowards who don't deserve to be treated like humans - rabid dogs are exterminated, so should they be. :mad:
-
Originally posted by Pepe:
I honestly think this is the prelude of WWIII.
WWIII is started in the 50's the only difference is the weapon used which are not "conventional".
-
A journalist says it better:
by Charles Krauthammer, Washington Post
This is a formidable enemy. To dismiss it as a bunch of cowards perpetrating senseless acts of violence is complacent nonsense. People willing to kill thousands of innocents while they kill themselves are not cowards. They are deadly, vicious warriors and need to be treated as such. Nor are their acts of violence senseless. They have a very specific aim: to avenge alleged historical wrongs and to bring the great American satan to its knees.
-
NOt often that I agree with Sandman but he's right on two counts here.
First, his original statement was basically spot on.
Second, Krauthammer does say it more specifically. ;)
-
Warriors dont kill innocents. They massacared thousands who have no idea odds are of even what they where killed for. I do not view them as brave. I view them nor more "brave" than a rabid dog... they are unbalanced mentaly but hardly brave.
Brave would be those indiv's on that flight that crashed that perhaps thwarted anthor attack.
Once again... no matter what I simply refuse to pin ANY postive connotations upon these indivduals. I hope they, and any or all who support them will be made to pay dearly.
xBAT
-
These words aren't necessarily positive at all.
Courage describes a firmness of mind and will in the face of danger.
Nothing positive or morally superior inferred. Simply a measure of resolve.
Brilliance describes unusual mental keenness or alertness.
Again... no moral connotations.
The fact that these are bad people doesn't diminish their intelligence nor their firmness of mind.
Don't they teach english anymore?
-
Sandman,
Outside of the partial definitions of those words you posted there is an emotional connotation to them in everyday language. Courage does indeed mean firmness of mind and resolve to face danger. But there has to be a rreason to face danger. Inflicting death on the helpless is not couragous. Using the helpless to strike a blow at the defenseless is not couragous.
Having firmness of mind and resolve to face death to protect others is courage. Causing death of innocents due to misguided ideology and belief is not courage.
People face death every single day they are alive. Inflicting it on others, even though it causes your own, for an evil purpose is not resolve.
You want to see courage. Look at the firefighters and police officers who RAN into danger to save others. Look at the medical personell, bystanders and others who went in harms way to help. THAT is courage.
Suicide is cowardice. Suicide for selfish reasons such as a way to "earn heaven" (in spite of the koran's teaching of love for your fellow man) is cowardice. Killing or attacking the helpless with no warning or using them as shields is cowardice.
I could go on here. I know you may not agree with me but I have no respect for those who support this type of act or belief.
I have faced people who were bent on hurting others for selfish reasons. To compare them to people who display REAL acts of courage by shielding the innocent is offensive.
Mav
-
Brave!?
If you beleive with all your heart you will go to heaven then how brave is it to kill yourself?
No there was no courage on the part of the terrorist.
Courage came from the people who tried to help others only to lose their own lives.
These terrorist were only thinking of themselfs and their own fate. Cowards to the end.
-
I see a lot of mention that the terrorists who commit these type of acts ,if they are muslim, believe they go to meet "Allah"
Well.. that's not really the case.
According to its teachings, aggression against human life is the second greatest sin in the sight of Allah,
second only to denial of Him.
"It is not permissible for the Muslim to frighten his brother."
The sin of murder is not limited to the murderer alone. Each individual who participated in this crime, by deed, or by word, will be the recipient of Allah's punishment in proportion to his
share in it.
Even a person who happened to be at the scene of the murder will receive a share of the sin for not defending the victim.
The Qur'an declares, "..If anyone
kills a person for any reason other than for (the killing of) a
person or for sowing corruption in the land, it will be as if he
had killed the whole of mankind." (5:32)
In other words...
Unless you kill a murderer (eye for an eye) or kill somone who is "sowing corruption in the land"... you commit a huge sin.
It's not that terrorists (if devout muslim) think they get an express ticket to heaven by
killing people.
It is just that they believe they are not committing a sin by doing so, since the "enemy" is believed "sowing corruption in the land".
There is a big difference.
Anyone who knows anything about the muslim religion realizes it is very similar to Christianity and Judaism and even Rastafarianism.
If I understand correctly..
Rastas came from Christianity which came from Jesus, A Jew, who were a tribe of Arabs which is where Islam comes from. (Started around 600 a.d.)
Religion is NOT the problem.
Catholics, Protestants,Jews,Muslims have been killing each other for millennia.
It has nothing to do with the religion, and everything to do with people of all races, creeds etc. who are sick and twisted teaching more people to be sick and twisted.
There are extreme sects of muslims who "reinterpret" the Koran just like there are Christian sects.
The quicker people stop thinking of the the general, decent Arab population of the world as 3rd class, the faster this problem will go away. No hatred/bias=no brainwashed idiots
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Snoopi ]
-
"...I look at it simply as this... giving your life in support of a cause takes courage...".
The problem with this argument is that you assume they view death the same as you and me. If you knew a little bit more about their religion, you would know that they do not fear dying because they truly believe they are going to a better place. They believe they will become martyrs here on earth and have all sorts of gifts, wives, etc. bestowed upon them where they are going. Quite enticing to them actually. So courage?....no. Crazy as loons?...yes.
bowser
-
Bowser... that is a common misconception about Islamic beliefs.
-
Killing innocent people is also against Islamic beliefs.
Islamic teachings and principles can be ignored, twisted, etc. just like any other religion. We're talking about fanatics here, who have little relation to Islam.
On 60 Minutes a few weeks ago was the story of the suicide bomber who blew up the bus in downtown Jerusalum about a month ago. Explained how they are chosen, why they do it, their beliefs, etc. Quite enlightening.
bowser
-
Got to go with sandman on this one. Civilians measure soldiers by there courage. Soldiers measure soldiers by there efficiency. Courage is a given (when was the last time you heard of to great armys meeting on a battlefield and running away from each other.) These guys killed over 4000 people with box openers. This makes the extermination of there associates all the more important.
-
If I understand correctly..
Rastas came from Christianity which came from Jesus, A Jew, who were a tribe of Arabs which is where Islam comes from. (Started around 600 a.d.)
The Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham. I’m guessing on the date here but if I remember right it's about 4,000 BC)
God promised Abraham a son and this son was promised many blessings, one of these being promised the land of Israel (or if you prefer Palestine).
According to the Bible (not sure what the Koran says) Abraham had 2 sons, Isaac from his wife, and Ishmael from his wife’s maid.
Jews (and Christians) claim the blessing and the land of Israel as their birthright because Isaac was Abraham’s legitimate son by his wife.
Arabs claim the blessing because Ishmael was Abraham’s first born son.
As I understand it both religions believe in the same god. They are just still arguing over inheritance 6,000 years later.
-
Thanks for the post Capt. Apathy !
I know that Mohammed (Islamic Prophet) was born around 580 A.D. so i guess Islam in it's current form dates from then.
When reading some Islamic "passages" I did find it interesting that Mohammed alters/reinterprets some of the teachings of Allah. From what I read this is where the fundamentalist interpretation about Holy War comes from.
To me it's like the old campfire game of telling a story through a circle of people.
When it gets to the end, the true meaning gets lost. I've always thought this was the problem with the Bible, Koran, Torah etc.
Supposedly the original versions of the have God as gender neutral. But the word "He" was used by men who translated it.
Hey Easymo ! Long time. Nice to see your post !
-
Hey" Snoop.
-
The attackers were cowards, plain and simple. It takes no courage to kill men women and children walking along a street, sitting in a cafe, or working in an Office Building. As a matter of fact these so called "martyrs" are of the most ignorant breeed yet! And so are those that went before them for Osama Binladen. The laughs on them. seems that they are the ones doing the one way sucide attacks to be martyrs, and he's safe and sound with nary a scratch. Seems that if I was inquiring about joining one of his terrorist cells I'd be askin "Why ain't Osama dead"? LOL guess he's a great salesman and cons others into doing his dirty work for him. They do the dying, he digs deep holes in Afghanistan.