Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SunTracker on April 18, 2005, 05:41:58 PM
-
What is the corner velocity for the P47D11?
-
It depends. What fuel load are you interested in? I'm not at home right now but would be happy to do a quick check when I get a chance.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
does it matter
-
Yes it matters Yucca.
Calculate it for 25% fuel load please.
-
TSPD* per sec.
*TSPD= Two Speeds Past Death
-
And why does it matter.
-
It matters for two reasons- Reason (1) The P-47D11 is the plane that I murder people with in the dueling arena (2) The P-47D11 is my perk earner in the MA.
Trying to tweak my performance in it.
-
lol
-
Well, judging by the speed YUCCA seems to fly it at in the MA I'd say somewhere around 120mph. :)
-
Originally posted by SunTracker
What is the corner velocity for the P47D11?
A bit more than an African Swallow.
-
P-47D-11
(assuming 6g load limit in AH)
Fuel Load: 25%
Configuration: Clean
Alt: Near SL
Corner Velocity: ~ 235 mph (TAS)
Here's the instantaneous turn doghouse plot:
(http://www.thetongsweb.net/AH/p-47d-11-turnplot.jpg)
This is my estimate basis some quick flight testing offline. There is a margin of error. For a more thorough EM analysis you'll need someone like Badboy to do a more accurate job of this including analysis of the Ps curve for sustained turn performance.
Hope that helps!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
As someone who's spent a good deal of time in the p48d11, I second yucca's question of why does corner velocity matter.
The d11 is a stall fighter, maintaining some fast flat turn isn't going to do you squat good.
Instantanious turn charts for the 47d11 we have in AH need to include flap deployment to be useful.
-p.
-
If you find yourself relying on a set speed to manuever around an enemy you've already lost the fight IMO. What happens when you can't attain that speed, give up?
-
Lefty,
I thought when we got that slow we just opened the canopy and tossed out our dirty under ware to block the enimies wind screen.
-
Originally posted by Tumor
A bit more than an African Swallow.
:rofl
-
Originally posted by pellik
The d11 is a stall fighter, maintaining some fast flat turn isn't going to do you squat good.
A stall fighter against what planes?
I would say it is more fit for energy or BnZ type of flying.......only those you wish to use it as a stall fighter are prob capable of deploying and taking advantage of its flaps.
TC
-
Why do you guys have to come rip on him for asking this question? Does it really matter that much to you guys why he wants to know it? Or do you guys enjoy strutting around with your huge egos putting down anyone else who may be inferior to you whenever you get the chance?
It's pretty sad when the vets of this game consistantly belittle newer players. It seems unless your part of the good ole boys club here you don't mean watermelon and neither does your opinions. If it weren't for the fact there isn't another game out there that is even comparable to this one alot of people who are treated like this would leave. That way the vets could pat each others backs and tell war stories about how great they are.
Look at me mom I can belittle the newer players. I've trained a bunch of people and that makes up for me being a total salamander to the rest of the new guys on a daily basis. :aok
Regardless of how good some of you may be your still arses when it comes down to the fine print.
-
isn't it by feel/sound?
who looks at the speedometer in the middle of a close fight.. ya just keep tapping the up/down flap buttons as needed by feel/sound
-
The Instantaneous turn performance envelope has bearing beyond a flat turn. A way this could be applied is flying a nose-low spiral dive at an angle that allows you to maintain 235 mph IAS and a 6g turn at the same time for maximum turn performance in a spiral dive.
Knowing this you might apply it for a variety of cases including if you in a D-11 were bounced by a higher alt & faster bogey, suck him into a nose-low manuever, use his extra speed against him while you maximize your turn performance to most efficiently gain angles to turn the tables or get angular separation.
At any rate I don't see where knowing corner velocity is useless... far from it IMHO. It's an important data point to help someone understand the bounds of the performance envelope of an aircraft. As Col. John Boyd postulated it's all about decision making and getting inside your opponents decision loop. It's an input point for developing a2a decision-making and tactics to maximize your performance in a plane.
Regarding flaps, the "lift limit" (left hand side) of the curve would move over slightly to the left with each successive notch of flaps.
I haven't tested it in the P-47D-11 but from experience you could probably still achieve velocities to acheive 6g's in a turn up to 1-2 notches of flaps which would further increase your corner turn performance (guessing in the ~215-225 mph range). Over 1-2 notches the autoretract would kick in as you exceeded the velocities for a flap setting.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
Why do you guys have to come rip on him for asking this question? Does it really matter that much to you guys why he wants to know it? Or do you guys enjoy strutting around with your huge egos putting down anyone else who may be inferior to you whenever you get the chance?
It's pretty sad when the vets of this game consistantly belittle newer players. It seems unless your part of the good ole boys club here you don't mean watermelon and neither does your opinions. If it weren't for the fact there isn't another game out there that is even comparable to this one alot of people who are treated like this would leave. That way the vets could pat each others backs and tell war stories about how great they are.
Look at me mom I can belittle the newer players. I've trained a bunch of people and that makes up for me being a total salamander to the rest of the new guys on a daily basis. :aok
Regardless of how good some of you may be your still arses when it comes down to the fine print.
Cobra, whom was you refering to? I see no where I belittled anyone. or did you mean to put "some of" in where you said "why do you guys"?
Tango,
good explanation of why one would want to know the corner velocity etc.....:)
-
Cobra,
To be honest we are just ribbing him because being where he is describing is meat and potatoes to us. We don't really give much of a thought to our speed as much as WEP, flaps and being able to see the con. Instantanious corner speed in our world is more for that woops gotcha on LA7's and spits.
Anyone who's reached the point with one of these over sized school bus's that's asking these questions from placing his ketser on the line is OK by me......:aok
-
TC I wasn't referring to you. Those who act this way know who I'm talking about.
It really doesn't matter why Sun wanted to know this and frankly it's none of their business if they couldn't answer the question. They either have answer to the question and can assist or they can move along and keep their "I'm better than you" egos to themselves. They might as well have spit in his face. Because they are better and seem to know it all no one else has any right to ask a question and try something new. They are the masters here and only they know how to effectively use an aircraft in AH.
-
Cobra is just randomly flaming at this trhead for no particular reason. Just like a woman who's been mad all day and looking for any little excuse to blow up.
-
Oh well YUCCA shades of Storch..........:) :)
-
C'mon fellas :). Always fun flying against you 56th FG guys.
Cobra is pointing out that a few of you could have been a little bit more helpful vs. the sardonic "why do you even care to know because it's so silly?" response to SunTracker's question.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
I dont see any belittling or flaming. I think the point me and YUCCA getting at, as some have stated that knowing the corner velocity really wont help you when you're down and dirty. There are so many dynamic points where the Jug can gain the advantage, it would be pointless to rely on one speed to get a kill. If you set certain limits and stick by them, you wont know what to do when the enemy forces you beyond them.
-
Wow... Yucca it is really nice to know that someone sees women exactly as I do.
It really relates to some woman problems I've been having as of late.. :D
-
Hiya lefty:
I agree that there are many dynamic points to consider to gain advantage. Knowing corner velocity is about building knowledge of one of the many dynamic points to consider.
I disagree that knowing corner velocity is pointless in an angles fight. Certainly if you're in a sustained turn fight below corner speed it means squat but the "down & dirty" setup is just one of many scenarios.
I don't see where knowing corner velocity is about setting any type of limits of relying on "one" speed to get the kill.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
Yucca you mean like what you did to Sun to boast your god like stature and laugh in his face? Since ofcourse you know it all and there's absolutely no reason for anyone else to ever ask such a meaningless and useless question?
That's probably why they never bother to publish such information in the pilots -1 manuals. That's also probably why Robert Shaw didn't take the time to cover such information in his book. God forbid if a person who's actually been trained in ACM would write such bogus and useless information. I paid money for this crap?
But hey the all knowing Yucca says it's useless information so it must be. Hail to the almighty Yucca and his followers.
-
I simply asked a question and you want to make it look like im insulting someone. I "gloated my god like figure" i dont see where i did that. And i never said it was useless. You just futher my point, quit acting like a damned woman.
-
And i believe sun was the one gloating.
-
yucca is a god.
-
S! Cobra
-
YUCCA, you meanie, now they'll start acussing you of acting like Shane......;)
-
S! Virage.
still have film of that bf109g6 VS P47d40
i watch it often :)
-
But tango did answer my question. S! tango :)
And i have no hard feeligns towards you cobra, but just pointing out you shouldnt make assumptions :)
-
Feel bad bout what i said, and i do see what you mean going on a fair bit cobra but I think you could have waited to make an example out of someone who was actually "belittling" them or what not. As far as training goes there are many people out there i have helped and might i state THAT I HELPED YOU IN THE DA. Maybe i should be a little sour at the fact that i help people not just you, who come back to bite me in the arse. Close to half the players i ever helped out come back and insult me after i take time to help them. Well now im all fired up again.
-
Ooops....thanks guys now he's mad and that means he won't let the rest of the squad have any kills. Do any of you flying squirrels know what it's remotly like having to beg cons to stay away from him becuase he's smacking em down before you can get lined up.......And just to be cute he'll do it in a Val or a spit1 or something dorky..........thanks alot............... ;)
-
Well i mean seriously heres a guy that he said "shane wouldnt help, he'd just belittle" him when helping him. So i take him to the DA and give him some pointers tellin him tips showing him stuff. And he feels the need to make me out to be someone sho goes out of my way to belittle noobs. I've posted training films in this "help and training" section in the forums as well as taken people to the DA.
-
does shooting me down repeatedly count as training?
but seriously dont sweat it yucster, cobra musta been having a bad day.
and whoeverr said suntracker was a noob????
-
Me thinks someone has PMS, is definately NOT one of the 'good old boys' and is a shoe-in for newest member of the JG54th.
-
Knowing the corner speed (with and without flaps) is good information. It's not that hard to get. Take the plane up to the speed where you can just pull 6 g's. Lets say that is 238 mph, which sounds reasonable. Get a stopwatch to time a 180 degree turn. Time the turn while diving to maintain 240 mph speed while pulling 6 g's. Divide 180 by the number of seconds and you have the deg/sec turn rate of the plane at corner speed. Do the same thing with various levels of flaps (as allowed) and fuel loads to make a complete envelope.
To make a 'more complete' picture, this same information needs to be found for other planes you plan to fight (the 'popular' planes). This same information is sometimes called the max instantaneous turn rate or maximum instantaneous turn speed since both are related.
Just to let you know, this is not the fastest instantaneous turn rate in AH. The fastest instantaneous turn rate occurs during a snap roll followed by a shallow dive reversal with full flaps at just above stall speed. The P47 has a prety good snap roll and recovery is not hard.
Regards,
Malta
-
Well crap.....I can't even read the graph. Back to closing my eyes and hopin for the best.
Zaphod
-
Originally posted by pellik
The d11 is a stall fighter, maintaining some fast flat turn isn't going to do you squat good.
Instantanious turn charts for the 47d11 we have in AH need to include flap deployment to be useful.
-p.
Yeah, the P-47s are very good with the flaps out, but most of the American fighters and all of the Japanese fighters will abuse it in a low-speed brawl. As for the Spits and Hurricanes.... Well, we know what that result will be.
In a stall fight, two factors dominate. Turn radius and ability to get the nose high. Flaps add tremendous drag. Planes like the P-47D-11 and F4U-1 simply lack the ability to get their nose up high enough with that much drag. REDD and I tested the F4U-1 against the F6F-5. The Corsair offers better initial turn. However, once the flaps are out, the F6F can get the nose up and climb where the F4U simply wallows. Eventually, the Hellcat will win. Likewise, any P-38 will dominate the P-47D-11 in a stall fight... easily in fact.
You can win against inferior pilots, you can win by surprising someone who didn't expect the Jug to maneuver at 150 mph. You can beat the guy with little experience. However, meeting your equal in a plane more suited to low-speed fighting will likely mean getting shot down.
I'd reserve stall fighting for those occasions when you have no other choice and there's no other bad guys nearby.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by YUCCA
Well i mean seriously heres a guy that he said "shane wouldnt help, he'd just belittle" him when helping him.
lol, wtf?!? :confused:
care to name that clueless backtarded wuckfit?
no idea how he'd have that impression since it's so totally wrong.
i don't belittle noobs... i belittle weenies with enough time in game to be more clued in than they are. :mad:
if you're referring to cobra, pay him no mind - he's just bitter recognition of his greatness has gone unnoticed. :aok
-
WEll let me rephrase that shane it was more like before i went to da with him he said something about shane only belittling him and not giving help. Im assuming he was talkin about the MA shane. Anyone who goes to the DA with you knows that you are more than a big help. Oh thats cobra i was talkin about.
-
Yucca, I really expected a better answer from you, especially since you are part of the 56th Figher Squad. Didnt they fly P-47s in real life? We should duel sometime.
-
Actually Yucca to get it straight yes I said that Shane did belittle people which is well known in the MA. To sit here and say he doesn't do it is a pure lie. I also stated that instead of giving that person pointers when they would screw up he would belittle them front of everyone in the arena on open channel. I also stated that no matter how good he is I wouldn't go to him for help based on seeing him do that constantly in the MA.
Yes you did come off like an arse when you replied to SunTrackers question. Instead of just answering the question or telling him how he could get it you started probing him for answers of why he wanted to know. As you would say does it matter? I mean it's obvious you weren't going to help because according to you right from the start knowing an aircrafts corner velocity doesn't matter. I mean is it really that hard to say though it's not something that you'll use all that often it can be used in this type of situation? Or is a better training method to poke and prod the trainee when they have a question and then laugh at them when they reply?
So tell me out of your 3 initial posts when exactly were you going to give him any useful information about cornering velocity? I mean was it before or after you laughed at him?
I also know that you helped me once in the DA and I'm greatful. If I had asked a similiar question like that would you have poked and prodded me and then laughed at me too? No one wants to have a trainer who treats them like that. When you start treating them like their ignorant they'll get discouraged and then tune you out. Correcting them is one thing but laughing in their face isn't the answer. It's the same reason why I never asked questions and learned what I could on my own. Half the vets when I first started felt it was more useful to laugh at me initially, make some smart arse remark and then just ignore me. I guess this is what the vets consider helping others.
-
jeebus! you guys are going mental.
why jump on one tiny innocent funny bit of flame when this watermelon and much worse happens in every single thread evar.
and i find it funny you defending Suntracker as a 'noob'.
where did noob come into this.
he registered on this board a few mere months apart from you cobra.
and yucca, stop being so damn light hearted and amusing, this is a serious place for pete's snake!!1!
and cobra, just chill out on this one, these guys are ruthless, i fear for our saftey if a flame fest starts up :eek:
and i dont think yucca was saying anyone was ignorant.
he was laughing at the fact that people ever look at those silly little dials and meters on the dash.
true AH dogfighting comes from the heart and you feel it not plan it.
its instantaneous inspiration in every fight.
judging things on graphs will help you plot one specific circumstance, or maybe help you travell the Atlantic safely....
....but keep you alive in the MA chit.... i think not.
-
maybe people who can't handle being called a castrati should try bunny luv, or perhaps hearts. :rolleyes:
for people who think they're in some online military they'd get washed out of virtual boot camp. :rofl
-
Dueling well won't keep you alive in the MA, only situational awareness (SA) will do that. Becoming a better pilot will enhance the game and help you get kills though. Everyone learns differently. Myself, I appreciate knowing performance information about various aircraft (especially the one I am in).
However, as you point out mechanic, knowing and doing are two different things. 'Training' yourself to fly a particular plane to its strengths is often much more difficult than learning its strengths. That, imo, is where places like the DA help. Well, that and gunnery.
Regards,
Malta
-
Originally posted by mechanic
he was laughing at the fact that people ever look at those silly little dials and meters on the dash.
I guess I get laughed at alot then, I am constantly rechecking my speed, if I take pings I am checking my CTRL D, if I am leaking I am checking my fuel and oil. On a drag/spiral climb, I am viewing my climbrate ( VSI gauge - Vertical Speed Indicator ), when conserving fuel during returning I check my rpm and manifold...etc...
Originally posted by mechanic
true AH dogfighting comes from the heart and you feel it not plan it.
once you are in a fight, yes, maybe. I would say you plan your intial merge, you plan what your next move is gonna be, then plan on the next, unless you let the opponent get the advantage first then you fly to his fight not yours. One determines the type of fight by measuring up his plane against his opponents plane/ his E state against his opponent's E, then flys accordingly. The key thing is you may have visualized the fight and the way it shakes out 3 or 4 maneuvers ahead or before the intial merge.
Originally posted by mechanic
judging things on graphs will help you plot one specific circumstance, or maybe help you travell the Atlantic safely....
....but keep you alive in the MA chit.... i think not.
not sure about judging, but it can only benefit a person to compare graphs and speeds of different planes to see what the planes +'s & -'s are to each other. The more knowledge one can incorporate into his flying the better pilot he will become.
mechanic, once a player has been around for awhile ( a few years maybe ) he tends to overlook the little things and does not realize that he is checking this gauge or that gauge, does not realize he is lowering this flap or raising it, it becomes 2nd nature. he/she has flown the sim for so long things happen during a flight like scanning your gauges briefly while switching from back/up to forward/up view or from left to right view. as for feeling, can one really feel it? I know you can feel the input one has on the stick as in pressure, maybe visualy feel it and hear it possibly..sorry for the long rant.
I saw your post as misleading with what I qouted you on, and wanted to offer a different view is all
-
wow you people are anal.
One guy asks about the corner velocity of the Jug. Yucca comes in and reply "does it matter" - to me he sounds like he was joking since no matter your speed is you are going to get outturned in the jug in terms of degrees/sec.
Very few jug drivers think in terms of turn rates, that's why the question seems funny and I read his reply as cynical.
maybe I'm reading wrong?
Bozon
-
Basically bozon, i said "does it matter?" becuase i was curious as to how it would help someone out to know that. So oh wait cobra i was looking for help and it was you that belittled me. Ok i laughed becuase suntracker was the one gloating. Maybe you should read before you type.
And i mean that without offense suntracker i just thought it was funny is all.
-
Best cornering speed?
It's simple to find for any plane for any alt.
1) Pick the alt. and set auto pilot level til she settles down
2) Turn of auto pilot and cut throttle.
3) WIth flaps up note the speed she stalls.
4) Multiply that speed by 1.66 and you will have best cornering speed.
Note: a 1-2k alt difference will normally produce a 1 or 2 mph difference but you will probably find it hard to accurately notice it.
You can do it for any plane.
Rgds,
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I guess I get laughed at alot then, I am constantly rechecking my speed, if I take pings I am checking my CTRL D, if I am leaking I am checking my fuel and oil. On a drag/spiral climb, I am viewing my climbrate ( VSI gauge - Vertical Speed Indicator ), when conserving fuel during returning I check my rpm and manifold...etc...
once you are in a fight, yes, maybe. I would say you plan your intial merge, you plan what your next move is gonna be, then plan on the next, unless you let the opponent get the advantage first then you fly to his fight not yours. One determines the type of fight by measuring up his plane against his opponents plane/ his E state against his opponent's E, then flys accordingly. The key thing is you may have visualized the fight and the way it shakes out 3 or 4 maneuvers ahead or before the intial merge.
not sure about judging, but it can only benefit a person to compare graphs and speeds of different planes to see what the planes +'s & -'s are to each other. The more knowledge one can incorporate into his flying the better pilot he will become.
mechanic, once a player has been around for awhile ( a few years maybe ) he tends to overlook the little things and does not realize that he is checking this gauge or that gauge, does not realize he is lowering this flap or raising it, it becomes 2nd nature. he/she has flown the sim for so long things happen during a flight like scanning your gauges briefly while switching from back/up to forward/up view or from left to right view. as for feeling, can one really feel it? I know you can feel the input one has on the stick as in pressure, maybe visualy feel it and hear it possibly..sorry for the long rant.
I saw your post as misleading with what I qouted you on, and wanted to offer a different view is all
hey all good TC sir. i wasnt laughing at people looking at dials, please remember. i just said 'laughing at the fact that people do'.
if this makes sense.
basically when in the middle of a hard fight the last thing on my mind is what my dash says. i have learned to fly AH through feel (no stall buzzer, etc) and thats how i perform best.
when RTB or whatever, or maybe if i have oil damage, you're damn right im checking and tweaking everything i can to make it home.
lets also remember the original poster is not a noob.
lets also remember yucca was just making a funny.
i think the initial 'lol' by yucca was of 'ooops, thats how i'm meant to fly, but be damned if i can check speed etc when pulling a stall turn rope shot super P47D11 kill move' type of 'lol'.
ya get me?
S! all.
:D
-
Originally posted by mechanic
if this makes sense.
ya get me?
S! all.
:D
I can relate to it all, mechanic, no worries.
it's all good
-
See now youe got Shane involved YUCCA. I told you this would happen......:)
Hey you should have stayed up last night. You missed the spit5 and G10 that tried loopdy loops against my D40 at 20k+......and then the D9 that wanted to stall fight while I was landing when I had a 1/4 tank left on the deck.......:D Now let me see....corner speed...corner speed.....don't know...I just dropped another notch of flaps, hit WEP, went vertical, came around on his tail and cut his wing off....corner speed......was that the speed he cornered into the gound???? :) Hey I thought you and Nomde were gonna teach me how to read those gauge thingies one of these days...have I been missing something?
-
c)
-
some people look tooooo far into this game...
its easy. all you have to do is kill dweebs. That is all that matters. you go into a fight thinking "i am going to kill this dweeb" and you will!
Blah corner velocity blah blah blah...
-
Oh furball, you have so much to learn...
-
Originally posted by Shane
maybe people who can't handle being called a castrati should try bunny luv, or perhaps hearts. :rolleyes:
for people who think they're in some online military they'd get washed out of virtual boot camp. :rofl
Shane, how old are you? Have you ever been in boot camp? That comment is so...clueless.
Back in the day, when I was in, somebody who acted like you do would have regular "fell down the ladder" sessions until they learned some respect. The military is all about the group, not about an individual's ego trips.
-
Originally posted by SunTracker
Oh furball, you have so much to learn...
nope.. i am pretty pleased how i play this game. I dont want to worry about corner speed and other crap. i give a pretty good account of myself too...
-
Originally posted by Furball
some people look tooooo far into this game...
its easy. all you have to do is kill dweebs. That is all that matters. you go into a fight thinking "i am going to kill this dweeb" and you will!
Blah corner velocity blah blah blah...
well yes, if you only want to shoot down dweebs then that is all you need to do. If you want to shoot down a more formiddable oponent then one should learn everything they can in regards to what each plane can and can not do, wouldn't you think? but that might take too much effort, so I guess you would want to just kill dweebs..........yeah Blah this blah that, that's the spirit.......don't offer any help, so everyone remains a dweeb......
anyone that has been in this game for more than 2 years has already read up on most info available anyhow......that is a given for the most part.
TC
-
I mean correct me if I'm wrong here.
One minute it doesn't matter. Then you say it isn't useless information and then you turn around later saying you were just curious to know how it'd help someone.
Your statement about it not being useless would mean that not only do you understand the subject but you also know when and how to apply it when the right time comes along. Is this not correct?
So lets back track why would you be curious about how it'd help someone if you already knew it's not useless information?
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
well yes, if you only want to shoot down dweebs then that is all you need to do. If you want to shoot down a more formiddable oponent then one should learn everything they can in regards to what each plane can and can not do, wouldn't you think? but that might take too much effort, so I guess you would want to just kill dweebs..........yeah Blah this blah that, that's the spirit.......don't offer any help, so everyone remains a dweeb......
I cant remember the last time i lost a 1 vs 1 in MA... so i cant be doing too badly. Its all by instinct, i dont want to be one of these people that work out proper speed and statistics. I just want to have fun.
Offer any help? i am always willing to help, although i taught myself at this game so i find it very hard to teach.
-
Now you're stuffing words in my mouth. I never said it was usefull or useless. I simply asked a question to which i received an answer. Im not contradicting myself sir, you are.
-
was meant as a rib Furball
and yes having fun is the most important thing :D
to add: we all would prob look like dweebs to someone who did not play the game :p
TC
-
Originally posted by rshubert
Shane, how old are you? Have you ever been in boot camp? That comment is so...clueless.
Back in the day, when I was in, somebody who acted like you do would have regular "fell down the ladder" sessions until they learned some respect. The military is all about the group, not about an individual's ego trips.
you telling me drill sargeants hold your hand and tell you how wonderful you are? I tink Gunny wants a word with you.
In this world of virtual combat, I am an ace... you are merely....
cannon fodder.
the point is... why are tender sensibilites being brought into play as an excuse for being unwilling to learn?
and shubie, don't confuse what you see in this game with what occurs outside of it, mmmmkay. so you can talk "blanket parties" all you want. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by Furball
Its all by instinct, i dont want to be one of these people that work out proper speed and statistics.
He's right, it is all by instinct. I never have a planed merge move, it's just all a gut reaction to each individual situation as to how best deal with it. You have to be flexible in the ever changing MA, and having things planned out on charts or graphs either will get you killed or you'll run like a wuss calling bs when your "move" doesn't work and the enemy's all over your 6.
-
Originally posted by Stang
He's right, it is all by instinct. I never have a planed merge move, it's just all a gut reaction to each individual situation as to how best deal with it. You have to be flexible in the ever changing MA, and having things planned out on charts or graphs either will get you killed or you'll run like a wuss calling bs when your "move" doesn't work and the enemy's all over your 6.
Stang, seriously now. noone on this thread said to map out your moves on graphs or paper. or fight using set prethought of maneuvers.
I agree one must be flexible, if you fly from instinct where did that instinct come from? it came from some type of experience unless everyone is like Robert Redford and are a "Natural".
a person studys the Energy Management charts and compares them, to gain knowledge of what and what not to do when they do encounter a fight in the arena. noone is saying draw out these graphs and draw out your manuevers on paper, then if you see that plane over there do this, then you should do this, and so on.......and fly by these set maneuvers and nothing else.
The charts are used to help build a knowledge base of the different planes performance and helps one compare them.
TC
-
This might work,
Best cornering speed?
It's simple to find for any plane for any alt.
1) Pick the alt. and set auto pilot level til she settles down
2) Turn of auto pilot and cut throttle.
3) WIth flaps up note the speed she stalls.
4) Multiply that speed by 1.66 and you will have best cornering speed.
Note: a 1-2k alt difference will normally produce a 1 or 2 mph difference but you will probably find it hard to accurately notice it.
You can do it for any plane. :D
Rgds,
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Stang, seriously now. noone on this thread said to map out your moves on graphs or paper. or fight using set prethought of maneuvers.
I agree one must be flexible, if you fly from instinct where did that instinct come from? it came from some type of experience unless everyone is like Robert Redford and are a "Natural".
Well, if you really want to get deep into it, I could tell you that none of it is learned, it's actually remembered...
;)
-
Originally posted by DamnedRen
Best cornering speed?
It's simple to find for any plane for any alt.
1) Pick the alt. and set auto pilot level til she settles down
2) Turn of auto pilot and cut throttle.
3) WIth flaps up note the speed she stalls.
4) Multiply that speed by 1.66 and you will have best cornering speed.
Note: a 1-2k alt difference will normally produce a 1 or 2 mph difference but you will probably find it hard to accurately notice it.
You can do it for any plane.
Rgds,
Thanks, Ren -- I'm all for a "Kentucky windage" shortcut. If anywhere close to the tedious data collection method, it'll be a real help.
Question though: with this method, once you turn autopilot off, do you keep hands off the stick, with combat trim on? Or, do you use trim to manually maintain altitude and attitude with hands off the stick, waiting to see when the stall hits?
I assume you watch for true stall, and not the stall horn onset.....
-
you can have the last word.....kudos to you:aok
-
Maintain level flight (hands on stick). Flaps must be up and you gotta note the stall speed when she falls.
Its almost the same for the correct landing speed. The difference is you have flaps down and note the stall speed. Then you multiply that by 1.3. Not that it matters much in the game because most folks just drag it on at just about any slow speed. The 1.3 multiplyer means if you maintain that speed you will not stall on approach.
Even though planes stall at different speeds the equation is correct and makes it easy for anyone to figure the best cornering or landing speeds.
Hope this helps.
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
a person studys the Energy Management charts and compares them, to gain knowledge of what and what not to do when they do encounter a fight in the arena. TC
Just wanted to chime in here.... while I find Badz' e-charts and watermelon pretty, I can't understand them for the life of me.
This is not to say others can't benefit from them in some way that I cannot comprehend.
as for "what and not to do" - well, no one really dies, so by trying things that you "shouldn't" you still gain from the experience if only to find the absolute edge of either (or both) your own skills or the planes' performance.
-
africkan or european?
-
Originally posted by snak
africkan or european?
"Ummmm.... I don't know"
AAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
-
I'm a little surprised at the level of disdain for stuff like corner velocity and the like. Instead I hear a bunch of stuff like it's all instinct & gut etc. So why do they teach this stuff to real fighter pilots now? Hmmm.
(http://thetongsweb.net/AH/f-15cem.jpg)
You would think there is some value :). OK, admittedly I'm being a bit rhetorical about this :D. Getting max performance by "instinct" out of your aircraft probably means at some point you're probably using corner velocity to your advantage and just don't realize it.
The bottom line is stuff like corner velocity, EM charts, and the like takes aerial combat from art and codifies it so that you can analyze and break it down to develop your tactics and decision making into concrete elements vs. something mysterious and unexplainable. In short it gives you concrete data to help you figure out how to improve your air-to-air skills vs. learning by chance.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
I suggest reading "Art of the Kill" to understand why corner velocity is important. It was written by an F-16 instructor, but half the book is still relevant to ww2 tactics. The book used to come free with Falcon 3.0.
-
I guess there's a few differing schools of thought.
1) get in a fight turn and point your nose and shoot the other guy down or die trying.
2) play the game like an arcade game. As you do it over and over you learn what works and what doesn't. You may not know why but hey, its a game.
3) use the virtual physics of the game to establish and fly within the given flight envelope of the planes and use these differences to advantage. In doing so use all available gouges to fly to your planes best advantage against the other guys planes weaknesses. The cornering speed formula is just another gouge.
4) Get completely anal and think the realism is completely real. It's not. It;s a game.
5) Drive a tank. They're alot of fun :)
Look around and you'll see each of these groups flying.
-
Whoa! Here I am reading along and followin g the thread and line of thinking, and then...whammo!! I read a post that rips anyone who responded by asking a question of the original poster...whats up wit dat??
Yucca asks why he wants to know...the other guy sez in so many words 'because I'm awesome in the 47D11 and I get my perk points from it...'
The rest of the responses were reasonable and started a really good discussion, which could probably help anyone interested who flies the Jug. So, I'm wondering why the hostility from Cobra??
So, the thread has in a sense been hi-jacked, and useful discussion has stopped. :(
Pffft!!
-
Very interesting reading. Looking in from the outside I'd suggest that many of you shut down that computer, take a walk or a drive to places where real people exist and develop some People Skills.
Just a thought.
-
Don the useful discussion never started until 10 posts in where Tango actually spoke up and posted references. Then Pellik and crew piped up saying virtually the same thing as Yucca, "does it matter". Even after that nothing else useful came out until again Tango and TC started posting. Everything prior to that was either a smartarse comment or the "experts" telling us what they think matters and nothing to do with the original subject.
You mean to tell me our vets don't have any clue as to how cornering velocity can help someone? Either their ignorant or their trolling. Some people come here looking for answers and instead they only get a bunch of smartarse know it all comments from the "vets". Because it's obvious they are on top of the food chain and know all there is to know about the subject.
Seems a little suspicious that two of the best players in the game would need to ask such questions. Last time I checked the question orginally posted by SunTracker was not "does it matter if I know the cornering velocity" but was actually "What is the cornering velocity".
-
I dont see the big deal Cobra, he asked about one aspect of the game but others piped in ideas and approaches the original poster might not have thought about. I think you're just using this discussion to somehow prove your point. The fact is though, there is nothing here that merits your attack. IMO.
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
was meant as a rib Furball
I was quite drunk at the time, sorry, didnt spot it!
a rib could have jumped up and smacked me in the face and i still wouldnt have spotted it...
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
Don the useful discussion never started until 10 posts in where Tango actually spoke up and posted references. Then Pellik and crew piped up saying virtually the same thing as Yucca, "does it matter". Even after that nothing else useful came out until again Tango and TC started posting. Everything prior to that was either a smartarse comment or the "experts" telling us what they think matters and nothing to do with the original subject.
Last time I checked the question orginally posted by SunTracker was not "does it matter if I know the cornering velocity" but was actually "What is the cornering velocity".
I thought I answered and gave him the gouge. Twice. Did you miss it?
-
Your right RightFoot. I'am proving a point that whether it's a person who's been here for a little while or someone who's absolutley new. Typically all they get is some smart arse comment from the peanut gallery when they are trying to learn something new.
If they had the answer and wanted to post it then they should have done so. Not once did many of our "vets" discuss or even try to discuss how cornering velocity matters and how it could be implemented. Instead it was does it really matter, it's a stall fighter so who cares, or a little faster than an african swallow. You have to read through all their BS just to get to the answer that was originally asked.
No Ren you actually did give an answer unlike the majority of the other vets here.
-
To be fair Cobra, Fatal1 (SunTracker) kind of became a lightning rod with his other BBS post so whether wrong or right I can understand some of the responses folks gave because of his other posts. We just had some extra baggage around the poster vs. the post itself that clouded things in this thread.
That being said I personally like the principle that - "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all". We have enough posters on the BBS that "being right" is more important than being helpful which is a shame.
Hopefully folks can see the positive and negative in this thread and learn from the positive responses.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
Don the useful discussion never started until 10 posts in where Tango actually spoke up and posted references. Then Pellik and crew piped up saying virtually the same thing as Yucca, "does it matter". Even after that nothing else useful came out until again Tango and TC started posting. Everything prior to that was either a smartarse comment or the "experts" telling us what they think matters and nothing to do with the original subject.
You mean to tell me our vets don't have any clue as to how cornering velocity can help someone? Either their ignorant or their trolling. Some people come here looking for answers and instead they only get a bunch of smartarse know it all comments from the "vets". Because it's obvious they are on top of the food chain and know all there is to know about the subject.
Seems a little suspicious that two of the best players in the game would need to ask such questions. Last time I checked the question orginally posted by SunTracker was not "does it matter if I know the cornering velocity" but was actually "What is the cornering velocity".
Gee, thanks for the useful recap. :rolleyes:
The answer to his question was right there on the chart near the top, no need for everyone to rehash that. Posts like mine and Yucca's are there not to answer his question, but to attempt to get him pointed in the right direction to be a better pilot, which seems appropriate since he apparently has the desire to learn how to get the most out of his jug.
-p.
-
Tango I'm very aware of SunTracker and his other post. That doesn't mean they come in here and purposely act like an arse when he asks a question. Hence why it was fairly obvious some were trolling and probing him to get an answer that they could ridicule. If they don't like him or how he acts because of his other posts then don't respond to this one. It's a very simple concept.
Others would like to learn too and questions like this help. If we have to constantly jump through a load of BS everytime a good question comes up then we'll never learn anything. As I said before if you've got issues with someone and they are gonna cloud the subject at hand then don't post.
-
:rolleyes: Yep your whole 1 post out of this thread that only very briefly mentioned anything of real importance which was in regards to instantaneous turn charts.
:rofl Please show me just exactly which comment that Yucca made is trying to help point him in the right direction to be a better pilot.
I've gotta see this.
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
Why do you guys have to come rip on him for asking this question?
and
That doesn't mean they come in here and purposely act like an arse when he asks a question.
No one "ripped" him for asking the question. Dtango answered it very early on, as mentioned already, Yucca's initial comments could hardly be considered "ripping" or acting like an arse.
If anyone ripped and acted like an arse, it's you, Cobra. :mad:
Cheer up, tho', maybe someday people will grant your mad skillz the recognition you crave. :rolleyes:
yeah, right... :rofl
snicker.
-
So SunTracker with your D11 stripped down to it's shorts with 25% fuel and I guess one opponent merging co-alt. What does "corner speed" mean to you?
The 56th in the MA, most of the time our cons are catching us with fuel weight heavy, and speed being our only freind. Or fuel weight and we have alt and they have many freinds high, medium, and low. We rarely get even odds, or if we get a 1 vs 1 it might be 18-28k. Once in a while we might get a 1 vs 1 on the deck, often on the way home low on fuel and ammo. Good incentive to kill em really fast......So you see we might tease you a bit about your question....:)
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Yeah, the P-47s are very good with the flaps out, but most of the American fighters and all of the Japanese fighters will abuse it in a low-speed brawl. As for the Spits and Hurricanes.... Well, we know what that result will be.
In a stall fight, two factors dominate. Turn radius and ability to get the nose high. Flaps add tremendous drag. Planes like the P-47D-11 and F4U-1 simply lack the ability to get their nose up high enough with that much drag. REDD and I tested the F4U-1 against the F6F-5. The Corsair offers better initial turn. However, once the flaps are out, the F6F can get the nose up and climb where the F4U simply wallows. Eventually, the Hellcat will win. Likewise, any P-38 will dominate the P-47D-11 in a stall fight... easily in fact.
You can win against inferior pilots, you can win by surprising someone who didn't expect the Jug to maneuver at 150 mph. You can beat the guy with little experience. However, meeting your equal in a plane more suited to low-speed fighting will likely mean getting shot down.
I'd reserve stall fighting for those occasions when you have no other choice and there's no other bad guys nearby.
My regards,
Widewing
The D-11 is actually very capable of getting it's nose up when slow. Much much more so then the other two jugs, and more so then most other fighters in the game. What it lacks when nose up it makes up for by having the best nose down performance around.
Very few planes are more suited to low-speed fighting then the d11. This plane can maneuver pretty well around 100mph, and if you're smart about picking your nose down turns at the right time you can trade a little alt for a lot of turn. That gets you a good position to stall it in for a snapshot or saddle.
Stall fighting is always a last ditch approach. When you've got E the 400mph flaps, massive rudder, and E bleed turns make this a beast on the attack. Trying to make one of these overshoot properly can be nearly impossible, more so then the other jugs.
When you're low E this plane is solid on the reversals. It gets slow faster then a 38, and it rolls a little better. This allows it to be pretty daring on getting in position on the overshoot to have those 8 50s aimed fast enough for the appropriate convergence. The typical throttle cut reversal counters can be very dangerous because of this too.
Co-E this plane needs to, and often will, win the merge. Despite the KI-84 I still think of this plane as the best 38 killer when the fight is 5k or higher. The turn radius in the d11 is very very good, so good I underestimate it every time. This is especially true while bleeding E early in the fight. You have to be smart about E states and position, however. Look at the old-school spit merges to find snapshots in the d11. Try to be nose down using your flap turn when your opponent is nose up to get around a little faster, but be sure to pull up into persuit before he starts to stall to prevent the flop-shot. You dont win the stall with your verticle performance, you win it with your E bleed flap turn.
Anyway, I'm just ranting here. I have a bit of a concussion and my focus is a little off.
-p.
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
:rolleyes: Yep your whole 1 post out of this thread that only very briefly mentioned anything of real importance which was in regards to instantaneous turn charts.
:rofl Please show me just exactly which comment that Yucca made is trying to help point him in the right direction to be a better pilot.
I've gotta see this.
The one where he asked 'does it matter'.
Just because he didn't explain himself in adequate depth for you doesn't mean his intentions wern't good.
-p.
-
Aww Pellik now you'll have everbody flying Jugs in the MA and we'll lose our Juggy mystique...........;)
-
Shane stfu already. You amaze me daily considering you consistantly whine on open channel and make dumb arse comments when someone kills you. This whining coming from a vet with multiple years of experience in flight sims is amusing to say the least. If anyone is looking for recognition it's you. I guess you just can't get past the old days when you constantly got your arse kicked in AW (maybe it was Warbirds been awhile since someone laughed and made jokes about it). Now that you actually have the ability to stand up on your soap box and rattle on about your uber flying skills and years of experience you still make a fool of yourself.
Pellik that's the kind of information people would like and expect from a vet when they come in here and post.
-
I'm just curious but exactly who would get anything out of "does it matter"? I mean gimme a break here. Your defending a comment that says absolutely nothing and only comes off as a negative response to the original question. He might as well said whatever in a valley girl tone and flicked his hair.
-
Cobra needs to get laid.
Where are the maws when you need um?
-
lol Yep Furball and from what I was told during my medical briefing when I was in the UK I sure won't be looking for a woman from there.
-
lol, never played WB's... and it's beeeeeeen a looooong, loooooong time since anyone other than someone already very good could whup on me in AW (or here for that matter). unless of course they brought a buncha hordemonkey buddies.
you're confusing whining with disdain. i know it's a little hard to differniate between the two, it being so subtle.
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
lol Yep Furball and from what I was told during my medical briefing when I was in the UK I sure won't be looking for a woman from there.
Wow, i'm shocked, so you do have a sense of humour.
I like foreign girls too, so i would agree with you.
-
lol So you've been playing for an extremely long time and still can't shut your trap when a newbie kills you or a few guys gang you. Even better.
And yes Furball I have a sense of humour. I get a little annoyed though when I have to deal with a bunch of ignorant co-workers and then the exact same type of folks on the game that's suppose to be a stress reliever.
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
And yes Furball I have a sense of humour. I get a little annoyed though when I have to deal with a bunch of ignorant co-workers and then the exact same type of folks on the game that's suppose to be a stress reliever.
Just dont take anything on here seriously (unless when drunk :rolleyes: ) and it rarely bothers you - works for me.
-
I hear ya. Kind of why I have my models and my aviation books as other hobbies when I'm not busy with work or around the house. Damn models cost so much I can't get frustrated with them and break them. Same goes for the books.
-
specs/stats are crap
it is either fast (b&z) or slow (t&b)
if you have to look at your gauges in the middle of it, you are dead against anyone who knows halfway how to fly ..
your only hope is the other guy is reading his gauges while you are trying to read yours :)
turn wind up to 100%, eng down to 80%, flaps and stall horn to 100% and LISTEN
-
I'll be sure to give the training pilots that bit of advice next time I'm at Seymour Johnson or Tyndall.
Actually better yet I'll walk over to Test Ops and the Test Pilot School and tell them that.
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
I'll be sure to give the training pilots that bit of advice next time I'm at Seymour Johnson or Tyndall.
If they are playing AH, it will help
we are talking about a video game not RL
-
So if they don't have a clue as to the performance of a particular plane they should just wing it instead of taking a look at performance charts?
I'm sure the aircrews over at the Test Pilot school will get a kick out of that. Especially considering they fly a different aircraft daily (T-6, T-38, Albatross, MiG, F-16, F-15, ect...)and have to know such information in order to fly it to the extreme.
Wait I forgot. We don't have to worry about dying. So winging it is always best.
-
we're not flying multi-million dollar jets.
there's a reason for "fly by the seat of your pants."
at least my yapping has a point. you're just ankle humping for the sake of ankle humping.
what's the corner velocity of that white high-horse you're on?
-
So because it's a game and theirs nothing really at stake you shouldn't bother with learning performance charts?
It's a matter of getting better through other advanced options instead of just winging it and learning through trial and error. Very similiar to how real fighter pilots do it or anyone else who wants to excel in a particular area. Obviously that's the case here or he wouldn't be asking this particular question now would he? Or is it you just failed to put 2 and 2 together from the start? So tell me, who's ankle humping?
And yep Shane everytime you speak it's definately worth listening. :rofl
-
Cobra
My father was a commercial pilot, multi engine rated prop and an instructor for all ratings up to multi engine prop commercial. When I flew with him or his associates, yes, you needed to watch the instraments, know your "corner speed" and anything else vital to getting safely from point A to point B.
This is a game, yes a very, very good "game". But you can become a Shane, YUCCA, furball or whatever without ever looking at a guage. If SunTracker thinks he'll look at guages while Shane is dueling him, he lost the match in the tower.
-
whoa... i never said the charts are useless (except for myself) or that people *should* "just do it."
i can see reading isn't your strong suit.
i'm only here because i felt the breeze of a distant ankle humping. it's fun to poke ankle humpers with pointy objects.
-
*poke*
-
(http://www.jongaskell.com/media/1/20040802-the-sprain.jpg)
-
Yes Bustr I understand you can become as good as they are. They also have years of experience when it comes to flying. So in order to try and make up for that huge gap you have to learn advanced techniques and take advantage of everything you can.
:rofl Shane stfu. I can also see you just like jumping in to anything so you can run your trap. We're not flying multi million dollar aircraft so we don't need performance charts.
-
i bet those flyboys are *required* to learn the charts.
we're not... it may or may not be helpful but you can get by without them.
why'd *you* jump in this thread? such delish irony.
-
Originally posted by bustr
[B[My father was a commercial pilot, multi engine rated prop and an instructor for all ratings up to multi engine prop commercial. When I flew with him or his associates, yes, you needed to watch the instraments, know your "corner speed" and anything else vital to getting safely from point A to point B.
----------------------------------------------------------
Actually your father might be a commericail pilot but you dont have a clue as to what he knows about cornering speed. It is not a function of commercial flying. Unless he flew or trained as a fighter pilot then he have heard the concept but never had to learn it. It might sound nice but holds no water in the discussion.
I sure he was a fine commercial pilot but try and stick to the facts. Thanks.
Ren
[/B]
-
Originally posted by DamnedRen
Ask him yourself....
http://www.geocities.com/cd19/
-
Sorry, Bustr. I don`t have to ask him. Your statement said it all.
Ren
-
Originally posted by bustr
Ask him yourself....
small world... i used to live less than a mile from him on madary road.
-
bustr:
Your Dad sounds like a great fella with a lot life wisdom - one of those people I would love to sit on the front porch with and just talk to and learn from! No doubt he's imparted some of that to you :). Here's a big to him!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
-
Actually your father might be a commericail pilot but you dont have a clue as to what he knows about cornering speed. It is not a function of commercial flying.
What about at very heavily trafficked commerical airports? Planes spaced about 30 seconds apart. Not turning at corner velocity might put a 747 on a collision course with another aircraft.
-
Actually commercial airlines are supposed to use standard rate turns. Anything above that is considered excess and only used in emergencies.
The average standard rate turn for most jets is approx 22.5 degrees of bank angle.
Airspeeds provide separation and all planes are monitored by using whats called miles in trail. These miles in trail can be used to back aircraft up before they ever get into the airports airspace and are used to check the flow of traffic into and out of an airport as a result of the number of runways an airport can use for given weather or other circumstances.
Hope this helps.
-
Originally posted by Shane
small world... i used to live less than a mile from him on madary road.
I spent a summer working at Bay Bridge Airport off the end of the bridge on the Eastern shore. Col. Tom MacAdoo Love kept his Knight Twister there and gave arobatic lessons in his Citabria. He flew the P51 in WW2, was a test pilot for the military after the war. He died when his plane went into a cornfeild on take off from Easton airfeild back in the late 70's. Here is the only article about him and his Knight Twister that's left.
http://www.steenaerolab.com/articles_detail.cfm?ArticleID=55
-
Had you known to ask him about cornering speed way back in the 70`s I`ll bet he sure know what it was and why you need to know it.
Ren
-
Ren,
I was just happy that Tom would talk to me and let my clean his windscreen. I was all of 17........
Hey Ren you been with the Damned long enough to remember slider from the early AW days?
-
This is starting to get ridicolous....
-
Yeah Lefty I know you are but what am I thhhuuuuppppphhhhtthhhppppppp ppp:p :p :D
-
I came to this thread to learn a little more than what my books state. Since they aren't specific to any particular aircraft it's nice to get detailed information. Instead, the majority of what I found was a bunch of smartarse comments from our veterans.
And no watermelon Shane ofcourse you can learn through trial and error. Any idiot knows that. That takes alot of extra time to learn opposed to having detailed information sitting in front of you that you can study and then put into action. Granted this doesn't mean someone can read a book and all of a sudden their an expert in that field. You still have to test what you've learned and fine tune it from there.
To say just learn by trial and error when there is more detailed information available is retarded. Some may not want to take the time to learn via studies and practical training and that's their choice. Having a strong base to start off with is crucial though if you want to learn quickly and have success in the process. If this weren't the case then why do the majority of successful technical training courses have book type studies and practical use training opposed to purely OJT? With your training method we'd be throwing troops right out onto the line the second they graduate basic training. I can assure you that someone who's got purely OJT and no other background training will take longer to bring up to speed than someone who has not only background training but practical use training too.
-
>>it's obvious they are on top of the food chain and know all there is to know about the subject.<<
No, they don't know all there is to know; if this were true, they would be untouchable, and noone in the game is that.
You jumped to Suntracker's defense pretty quickly, and also jumped all over Yucca as quickly; I saw it as unnecessary. True they (Yucca et al) may have handled their response to Suntracker badly at first but, all ST had to do was ask again, and/or disagree; instead he said for all to read that he is awesome in the P47 :) Now, I can tell ya, the way it is in here; when a person makes a statement like "I'm awesome.." etc. that will likely result in some ribbing because everyone in here see's himself as the hottest fiter pilit that ever was. :lol ...Shane being a perfect example of that :)
OTOH, I am aware that both Shane and Yucca have helped newbies, and have taken time to offer advice and also to spar with new folks. Yucca is well known for his handling of the Jug, and Shane...well Shane will tell you he is the best at anything with virtual wings :) But, he is damned good, and it took him time to learn.
I agree with them both, to look up cornering speed while in a fight will get ya keeled; it is a thing which must be known almost intuitively if it is to do you any good at all. A thing whic allows you to glance down at your airspeed indicator and keep an eye on your nme at the same time. From what I read, they meant that but, perhaps egos got in the way; hell they are very good, and therefore take liberties; that doesn't change their level of skill or, their knowledge of how to win in a fight.
-
Here's a little test you can do that will teach you the value of corner speed. This was suggested to me by Vlado Lenoch, who owns and flies a P-51D (Moonbeam McSwine) and a T-33.
Flying level over water at corner speed at 2,000 feet, roll inverted and pull through a half-loop. You want to get the tightest half-loop you can manage. Note your altitude when level again.
Now repeat this at 200 mph. You will discover that you will end up much closer to the water than you were when half-looping at corner speed (generally in the 220-250 mph range depending on type and weight).
Try it at different speeds.
Nothing better explains the value of corner speed than actually seeing it work.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Don you've made a very good point. Against a skilled player you don't have much time to be glancing at your indicators. Against lesser skilled players you would. This is essentially where they could try to fine tune the knowledge they've gained and "get the feel" for their best performance characteristics. Once they are knocking these folks down with little to no effort like Shane, Yucca and the rest of the top notched players do to the better players then they'll know they are progressing well. Then it's a matter of stepping it up a notch and fine tuning even more. That will only come with experience of flying against the top players in the game. It still may not make you a Shane, Yucca or Leviathn but it won't be a guarantee that they'll beat you every time.
-
TEST