Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bigsky on April 20, 2005, 01:50:21 PM
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The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
By SEAN GONSALVES
In light of the Bush bankruptcy bill and his repeal of the estate tax, let's examine the phrase "Bible-believing Christians," who we can thank for giving Bush his "mandate."
Supposedly, a "Bible-believing Christian" is a Christian who believes the Bible to be the inerrant and infallible word of God.
It's redundant to call a Christian a Bible believer (all Christianity is Bible-centered). However, in popular dialogue, when someone is identified as such, they mean to indicate they are a particular type of Christian - a fundamentalist. And though the phrase is a religious one, "Bible believer" is also meant to imply a politically, socially and economically conservative Christian.
But to honor conservative Christians with the title of being "Bible believing" is off the mark. They're fundamentalists all right - market (not Christian) fundamentalists, obsessed with sexual ethics.
Given "Bible-believers" deafening silence over a bankruptcy bill that subjects the working-poor to market discipline while doing nothing to hold unethical lending institutions accountable, and their low-key support for the permanent repeal of the estate tax, is blasphemy against the spirit embodied in the very Bible they claim as their guide.
Exodus 22:25-27 speaks of a divine ordinance prohibiting interest charges on money lending. Hebrew and Semitic Language Professor John Gray points out: "The prohibition against interest refers, not to commercial investment, where the interest is simply a share of the borrower's profit, but to exploitation of a poor man's need."
There are 46 million Americans without health insurance, and one of every five children in America are born into poverty. But, under the new bankruptcy laws, if you're one of the millions of working Americans who use credit cards to pay medical bills or food because charity isn't enough, credit card companies can charge usurious interest rates, turning people into debt-slaves. Wouldn't a Bible-believing Christian call for legislation that, at the very least, outlaws usury?
Exodus 23:10-19 calls for the fields to "lie fallow" every seven years to feed the poor with surplus food. Leviticus 25:8-34 proclaims the "Jubilee year," which called for the cancellation of all debt based on the biblical pronouncement that God is the absolute owner of all property and even though people "own" possessions they're actually mere stewards over God's property.
So while these passages are anti-Communist insofar as private property is acknowledged by the God of the Bible, the scripture advocates for periodic, massive redistribution of wealth to even out the playing field, recognizing the human propensity to use the power wealth affords to exploit the poor, as the book of Proverbs discusses in scripture after scripture.
Speaking of Proverbs, in that collection of wisdom sayings, you'll find several warnings such as: "rob not the poor because he is poor; neither oppress the afflicted in the public square" (Proverbs 22:22).
The thematic focus of all the books of the prophets, from Isaiah to Micah, is God's displeasure with idolatry and oppressing the poor, and the two are often linked.
In the Christian New Testament, Jesus says he came "to preach the gospel to the poor..." and that the nations would be judged according to how "the least of these" have been treated. And don't forget what Jesus told the young rich man who asked how to get into heaven. Sell all your possessions, Jesus told him.
Jesus' eldest brother, James, one of the "pillar" apostles and leader of the Jerusalem Church - the first Christian Church to ever exist - sent the apostle Paul out to collect money for the poor (Acts 15) and, in his epistle, he speaks on this issue with real moral clarity.
"Go now, you rich men, weep and howl for the miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted...."
None of this is to say that God is a Marxist or that capitalism has been divinely rebuked, but it does point to an ethical spirit that is being mocked today by the very people who claim to be "Bible believers."
Though such social sin is a cause for lamentation, true Bible believers have faith that justice will eventually "roll down like waters" because "whoever blocks his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry, but will not be heard" (Proverbs 21:13).
"Bible-believing" market fundamentalists consider yourselves warned.
Sean Gonsalves is a Cape Cod Times staff writer and a syndicated columnist. His column runs on Tuesdays. Call him at 508-775-1200, ext. 719, or e-mail him at sgonsalves@capecodonline.com
(Published: April 19, 2005)
http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/edits/seang.htm
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Another attempted slam on Christians?
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Ummm Isnt that supposed to be Bible-Thumping?
never heard the term bible believing before. That is stupid.
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apparently someone at the lending institutions took guns, placed them in salespeoples hands and sent them door to door across America forcing these pious poor people to borrow money for goods until they were indebted to levels far beyond their ability to repay. Imagine that!!! I think we need more gun laws to prevent those evil credit card companies from compelling the holy poor people to borrow money from them.
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Originally posted by storch
apparently someone at the lending institutions took guns, placed them in salespeoples hands and sent them door to door across America forcing these pious poor people to borrow money for goods until they were indebted to levels far beyond their ability to repay. Imagine that!!! I think we need more gun laws to prevent those evil credit card companies from compelling the holy poor people to borrow money from them.
Are there exemptions for getting laid off from a job or for medical emergencies?
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Originally posted by Raider179
Are there exemptions for getting laid off from a job or for medical emergencies?
I believe that if you make interest payments on any loan while you are going through a difficult period it is acceptable and there are agencies that will help anyone with this type of financial difficulty.
the problem is that many people think it is ok to borrow money and never repay it. credit is a very dangerous thing and should be utilized soberly. anyone can find themselves in serious problems quickly if they are not careful. it takes a moment to swipe your credit card to purchase a product or services but you may find yourself paying for the stuff years from now and the item may no longer even serviceable. many of us find ourselves paying for stuff long after we have tossed said stuff out.
years ago we got into the habit of making our car payments prior to purchasing our automobiles. if (for instance) a car note was $350.00 then that amount was deposited into an interest bearing account at the beginning of each month when we paid our bills. that system has worked well for us. compound interest can be a beautiful thing if it is made to work in your favor. all that is required is a little discipline and never mind the Bimmer your bud just bought.
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please read the bankruptcy bill, it will not affect people who are really "bankrupt",IE canot repay their debt, it only lets the bankruptcy judge make people who can repay all or part of the debt file chapter 13 instead of chapter 7.
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Its my understanding that instead of escaping thier obligations, a person seeking bankruptcy who earns MORE than the national average will be allowed to go on a payment plan to repay what he has borrowed with a minimum payment of $100 per month.
What is wrong with that?
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Interesting post.
IMHO the author is pointing at something that is valid.
I don't consider this a slam.
Many that call themselves christian do so only in name.
A little note: I believe there is a statement within the bible that warns all, it goes something like ... to those who are given much, much is expected.
Warning against GREED repeatedly occur. Oppresion of the poor is also warned against.
Doesn't seem to do much anymore.
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The author seems to imply that the only avenue for being charitible and merciful the to poor and afflicted is through federal govt. programs and laws.
Most Christians give a substantial portion of their income to the church, and most churches provide substantial aid to those in need.
Calling it blasphemy and hypocracy to expect the fed. govmt. to limit itself and let let those called upon by the Bible to provide for the needy is simply misguided.
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Psalm 37:21: “The wicked borrows and does not repay, but the righteous shows mercy and gives.”
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Originally posted by Samiam
Most Christians give a substantial portion of their income to the church, and most churches provide substantial aid to those in need.
Or they just build a new gym, or a bigger church. I hardly ever see any churches doing "community" work except on holidays. Guess some is better than none though.
Flame on!
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The tardriffic tardery of tardism
Why did you post that crap and can I have my 15 seconds back?
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The best charity is transparent. if you feel you have to TELL someone or be SEEN doing it, you're doing it for the WRONG reasons. The church does not have to be SEEN doing charity and community service. that's not the point. If you don't understand that, then there isn't much anyone can do for you.
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I'm sure that explains the reason why the RESULTS are transparent and invisible too.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
The tardriffic tardery of tardism
Why did you post that crap and can I have my 15 seconds back?
unlike you i posted it for those who may know the meaning of the word usurious AND MAY find it slightly interesting.
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Well, Raider, you are just flat out wrong. I suggest you actualy go to church and maybe volunteer for some of that charitable work they do.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm sure that explains the reason why the RESULTS are transparent and invisible too.
I'd stack the track record of the churches up against that of the feds any day when it comes to providing for the truly needy.
$100 given to the food program at my church means $100 of groceries get purchased for a needy family. I observe the results every week.
$100 given to the feds to fund a social program means $30 gets to person in need and there's no adequate accounting for whether it goes to food, booze, or lotto tickets.
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wow I can pull a thousand verses from the bible and make them sound like something they are not. It dosent mean that is the basis for christianity.
This guy is one of many that just don't get it and use this to slam the Bush administration (admiticaly BY ME there are many other prevelent things to slam him for)
to invoke God's word in this situation to me seems a bit petty.
it also says in the bible:
"the rich rules over the poor and the borrower is servant to the lender" Proverbs 22:7
Now I can text this to say the bible is telling me to borrow as little as possible for my freedom or that the bible is entitling me to own slaves depending on how I write it.
Either way christianity is not about debt. I wont even use the term "true christians" I will just say that it IS about forgivness being devine....turning the other cheek....knowing your own faults befor god.....and realizing that the only man without sin lived and died so we can be forgiven for ours.....the ultimate "jump on the grenade" for me.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm sure that explains the reason why the RESULTS are transparent and invisible too.
You should try getting deeply involved in a GOOD church. You'd be STUNNED to know what charity goes on in a couple of local churches I have been a member of. Nevermind what some of the members do without even the church knowing it. I know of a young (about 25) widow who was 6 months behind on her mortgage and looking for a place to move her 4 kids. A member of the church quietly went and paid her mortgage up (total, including legal fees about $10K). He'd be very angry with me if he knew I told anyone, but I figure his secret is safe here. That doesn't count what he gives to the church in the collection plate that they spend on any number of good works for the community.
The local churches of Christ have the finest nursing home in the area. It's non profit, and I do mean NON profit. The youth program visits the elderly, the shut ins, and the nursing homes, especially the veterans. Got a family member in the hospital? Had a death in the family? Don't plan to cook or buy groceries for a month, there'll be a meal served to your door 2-3 times a day every day. Don't worry about mowing your lawn, or anything else either.
Naw, Hell naw, the churches don't do a damned thing. You keep right on believing that.
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I just LOVE these people quoting from the Bible and getting all religious now. Ain't it just cool as Hell? The radical liberal left got their tulips handed to them in recent elections, and now they go quoting the Bible about everything.:rolleyes:
Three quotes from the Bible, taken out of context just like that drival that started this thread:
Whatever thou do, doest thou quickly.
Judas went and hanged himself.
Go now and do likewise.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The best charity is transparent. if you feel you have to TELL someone or be SEEN doing it, you're doing it for the WRONG reasons. The church does not have to be SEEN doing charity and community service. that's not the point. If you don't understand that, then there isn't much anyone can do for you.
Ah, but what if by being seen to do charitable work, one sets an example & inspire others to do likewise?
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Originally posted by bunch
Ah, but what if by being seen to do charitable work, one sets an example & inspire others to do likewise?
Go into a good church every Sunday morning for about a month. You'll quickly find out what is going on, and see all of the examples you need to see.
I can tell you from experience that it is NOT the people who are doing the real visible and publicized charitable works that are the example to follow.
I've known both kinds.
It is the guy who goes about it quietly, noticed only by those who are LOOKING for an example and those whose life he touches (especially those he does NOT do charitable works for, but with whom he associates and interacts regularly) who is getting it done. He's the guy who remains in the background, practically anonymous. He neither wants nor needs attention or accolades. He will seek out those in need, and help them, even without them knowing it. Because of how he approaches it, he never offends nor embarasses anyone, he finds those really in need because those who are not in need do not know him and therefore do not seek him. He has trusted friends and associates he uses as sources to find those in need. He is the man who would deny being such a benefactor. THAT is the man you should seek as an example. I know a few such men, one in particular comes to mind as being among the greatest I have ever seen. He and his wife treated me as they did their own sons. He calls me friend. I am not worthy. He serves his God, his family, and his community, because he and his God know that it is the right thing to do. He has been both a deacon and an elder in the Church of Christ, he and his wife were both youth ministers, and ran the youth program.
I have a friend who was every bit as wild as I was when we were in our teens and twenties. He is now a youth minister at the church we grew up in. If you were ever his friend, he will know if you have a problem, and he will come to you, you will not need to call or seek him out. Because he is always, QUIETLY looking out for his friends, his family, and his children of his youth program. You will see him, and he will take the time to ask about you, your family, and your mutual friends. Then you will see one of those mutual friends and you will both say the same thing: "Hey, you know I saw Ralph a few days ago, he was asking about you and your family". But, like the others, unless you are looking, you will not see the good things he is doing. But if you are truly seeking an example, or direction, he will quietly lead by example, you need only to watch. He will not tell you or anyone else of the good works he does, you will know because you see him, you help him, or someone you know sees him and tells you.
While it is nice if everyone sees some of the work the churches do, only those who are truly seeking an example or direction who will really see it anyway, and they will see it whether it is done in some grand public manner or not.
What is sad is that each generation has been taught to expect the government to do more and more. Each generation seems to grow further from God, from the churches, and from the good things they do for the community. The power of the church becomes more limited as the generations grow further away and attend church less. The government takes more and more as taxes, and so each generation gives less to the church, and expects the government to do more and more since they take the money. But the government can never serve the community in the ways the churches could.
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Originally posted by bunch
Ah, but what if by being seen to do charitable work, one sets an example & inspire others to do likewise?
that's not the point of charity. You don't do it to encourage others (although it is nice) the point is to help those that need it. I'm one of those types that likes to be annonymos (SP) with my charity. I dont want recognition....I don't want a thank you....I don't want to do it to "set an example". I just want to do it to help those that need help.
Capt v I couldnt agree with you more. My parents moved to the south to be with my grandma because she is in poor health. They sold their house quit their jobs but worse they had to leave their church. Moving day came and they had litereally 30 voluteers to help them load up the truck.
when they got settled in Georgia they finally found a church they liked that reminded them of their former home. After sunday services the pastor stopped by the house to visit.....and three people dropped off pies to welcome them.
The church nore christianity isn't about the building....the politics....the republicans....the movement....the radicals....the bible thumpers....the evangalists...none of that. The church is the people...not the building they occupy or the party they endorse.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I just LOVE these people quoting from the Bible and getting all religious now. Ain't it just cool as Hell? The radical liberal left got their tulips handed to them in recent elections, and now they go quoting the Bible about everything.:rolleyes:
Three quotes from the Bible, taken out of context just like that drival that started this thread:
Whatever thou do, doest thou quickly.
Judas went and hanged himself.
Go now and do likewise.
lol I love it when people that say how good church is and then tell you to go hang yourself. that is really funny.
Oh and by the way if your charity is transparent guess what that means? You arent doing a good job.
Been to plenty of church and have seen it abused and a place to socialize more than I have ever seen it used to actually promote the publice good.
I also enjoy those who only use bible quotes to prove their side then when it comes back to bite them they quickly say its taken out of context.
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"I hardly ever see any churches doing "community" work except on holidays. Guess some is better than none though."
Sadly occasionaly true.
Though I think that maybe here in the UK and I suspect in the USA too the Churches are more active in the community than we might think.
I currently work as a youth worker for the local authority but I have worked for the church too. I am not a practising christian, neither were some of my colleagues, despite this the church employed me because they were more concerned about the practical outcome and the idea of realy doing something to materialy benefit the people in their community than getting "bums on pews" as they put it.
Basicaly I have respect for any religion that encourages people to get out there get their hands dirty and do practical work to try and help those less fortunate than themselves whatever those peoples faith or religion may be. Its worth pointing out that in Muslim societys the Mosque fullfills a similar role in benefiting the community.
I have little respect for religion when it simply preaches dogma and is only interested in increasing the number of followers and persecuting those who are not followers. Acting as a cosy club for the faithfull and an income generator for its membership and leadership only. Offering a helping hand only to those who believe its particular brand of religion!
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In the more rural areas... like where my folks live above sonora.. the churches do the only real good. I was their last weekend and there was this big "free sunday breakfast" at the park. there are about 3 times a week that the churches give out free meals and one day a month that they give out free groceries. at the meals the people take home what is not eaten on the spot.. there is also a shelter where the churces get together and sponsor.. they give people shelter and a shower and clothes and help them look for work.. they also have vouchers for gas at a local station.
the government gives these same people money to buy drugs with.
any of you who do not realize how much charitable work churches do have your head up your butt.
lazs
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Originally posted by bigsky
The moral bankruptcy of fundamentalism
By SEAN GONSALVES
In light of the Bush bankruptcy bill
Sounds like a disgruntled liberal sore loser to me.:rolleyes:
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Me thinks bigsky lost sight of the "seperation of church and state" concept.
Virgil - telling someone to go hang himself is not a very Christian thing to to, I guess you are one of those hypocrites I have heard about. Its a shame you cannot find from your church and your beliefs the inner peace, wisdom and grace necessary for understanding and forgiveness.
dago
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Originally posted by lazs2
any of you who do not realize how much charitable work churches do have your head up your butt.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
IT WAS AN EXAMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you proved my point perfectly. I NEVER told anyone to go and hang themselves. It was a perfect example of taking Bible quotes out of context, and the reaction to same. Read closer, and you'll see I never said I was such a good Christian, and in fact said quite the opposite. I USED to go to church regularly. I've been one time in YEARS. But then, you never read that part, did you? You know, where I said I was not worthy.
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Originally posted by lazs2
any of you who do not realize how much charitable work churches do have your head up your butt.
lazs
Often, one only sees what he desires to see. Those who want to believe the church is doing nothing will see the church doing nothing. Those who are looking to see what can be done will see the church getting it done, and will see how good a tool it is to get it done.
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Originally posted by Dago
Virgil - telling someone to go hang himself is not a very Christian thing to to, I guess you are one of those hypocrites I have heard about. Its a shame you cannot find from your church and your beliefs the inner peace, wisdom and grace necessary for understanding and forgiveness.
dago
Thank you. Glad you could jump to the wrong conclusion in such a grand fashion. Tell me again where I told someone to go and hang himself. I listed three quotes from the Bible, out of context, plainly stated they were out of context, as an example. Then, everyone ASSumes that I used quotes from the Bible to tell someone to hang himself. Better yet, because I stated what the church did, they ASSumed I was a member of the church, and branded me a hipocrite. OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Ah heck, whats the point in arguing with a "holier than that Pope" type, you know what you said, you can try and shade it anyway you want.
Grace shall never be in your heart or your soul, you have too much anger and self-rigtheous arrogance.
dago
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Originally posted by Dago
Ah heck, whats the point in arguing with a "holier than that Pope" type, you know what you said, you can try and shade it anyway you want.
Grace shall never be in your heart or your soul, you have too much anger and self-rigtheous arrogance.
dago
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Yeah, I know what I said. I gave an EXAMPLE of Bible passages taken out of context. Evidently, that is too deep a concept for some to grasp. I never directed it at ANYONE.
Go ahead SHOW me where I told anyone to go and hang himself.
You CANNOT.
Me, Holier than anyone? Hardly. Far from it in fact. I curse too much. I drink, sometimes to excess. I never professed to be Holier than anyone. Nor did I proclaim myself a good Christian.
You seem to have reached a conclusion which you wanted, regardless of the facts in evidence. I never once spoke of myself as one who was involved in those charitable works, the closest I've come is doing some of those far better than I a couple of favors they needed in order to help those they wanted to help.
Funny how people seem to arbitrarily attach anger to me. Rarely am I angry, nothing in here is worthy of anger, it's a BBS on the Internet. And I'm far from being self righteous. I know my faults, and know them well, for they are mine to bear, and mine to work on.
Assume what you will, you know not enough of me to make such a judgement, but knock yourself out and have at it.
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Hmmmm.......
for me the issue this post is about has been missed.
Charity is not the issue.
Abuse, by lenders, of the poor is.
Government vs church in helping the needy is not the issue. As the Church in most every case does a far better job IMHO.
The apparent, or seeming, lack of response by the "church" to Government abuse of the poor is the issue IMHO.
GREED!
Is this moral banckruptcy? Hmm not sure I would think so.
Ending of the inheritance tax? Not sure it was fair or equitable in the 1st place. Your family estate is yours not the Lefts, or the Rights. The passing down or on of wealth within families isn't always so BAD a thing.
Many families found themselves pretty much disinherited with the death tax in place.
It can be argued this was stealing wealth from the people of this nation.
But I'm pretty much against most taxation anyway.
While the word TAX has only three letters I often feel it should have four and be considered a curse word!
Those within the structure of our government seem to think it's FREE money. Theirs for the taking and all too often wasteing.
Remember some saying the government had more money then it knew what to do with anyway.
HEY it's OUR money! Always has been!
Oops kinda got off thread sorry....
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
IT WAS AN EXAMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And you proved my point perfectly. I NEVER told anyone to go and hang themselves. It was a perfect example of taking Bible quotes out of context, and the reaction to same. Read closer, and you'll see I never said I was such a good Christian, and in fact said quite the opposite. I USED to go to church regularly. I've been one time in YEARS. But then, you never read that part, did you? You know, where I said I was not worthy.
I Never said you were a good christian I said you said church was good. Which you did.
"Judas went and hanged himself.
Go now and do likewise."
That sounds like you are telling him to go hang himself.
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"That sounds like you are telling him to go hang himself."
seemed that way to me,at the time.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Go into a good church every Sunday morning for about a month. You'll quickly find out what is going on, and see all of the examples you need to see.
...and as an added benefit, if you're single it's a good place to pick up women. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
...and as an added benefit, if you're single it's a good place to pick up women. :)
if you want more children than a rabbit, anyway. probably has something to do with the wait till marriage thing.
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Originally posted by Sandman
...and as an added benefit, if you're single it's a good place to pick up women. :)
taking notes, sunday, church, meet women...
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Any chance we could all join hands and sing kumbaya right now?
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Originally posted by Dago
Virgil - telling someone to go hang himself is not a very Christian thing to to, I guess you are one of those hypocrites I have heard about. Its a shame you cannot find from your church and your beliefs the inner peace, wisdom and grace necessary for understanding and forgiveness.
dago
Ummmm......try reading his post again. In context, he's talking about how quoting snips of verses can be made to say anything at all, even something ridiculous like go hang yourself.
Course, actually reading the post and thinking about it might mean stepping outside your assumptions about religious people...
Never mind
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The only problem with using church as a place to pick up women is that, well, they are women who go to church. Poke a hole in a pillow and go to town, it is the same thing with 50% less agnst and recriminations.
If you are so desperate that you have to visist somewhere to pickup women, do it at the grocery store-at least they are hungry for sure.
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And to the primary point of the bankruptcy issue:
Is anyone seriously saying that the US economy needs ANYTHING that encourages more debt?
Have you ever thought about how different things would be if people were simply convinced that their actions had consequences?
And, how does it become the credit card company's fault that they advertise their services? If I go to Disney World with the by spending the mortgage payment, is it somehwo Michael Eisner's fault?
Casting the argumetn in terms of greed makes it sound morally enlightened, but let's be honest: the average American household owes something liek 6 months' wages for services they couldnt afford. It's not only the poor, its the thoughtless consumerism this country has "bought" in to. I've had to work with physicians who were considering bankruptcy because they borrowed so far into the future that they couldnt keep up even with the interest payments. Should they be able to shift the cost of their lack of self control, onto other consumers through higher prices?
And how does this economic issue turn into a religious one? It seems to me that a columnist with a bee up his butt (as gramma used to say) just found an excuse to hammer a group he blames for liberalism's failure. Might as well blame the NRA for gas prices...
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Remember this all you bleeding hearts-all of those bankruptcies from stupid-asses are paid for by people who are responsible. So if you are OK with letting idiots and criminals live the life of riley, until it is "too hard to meet their obligations", then say, "oops!, I fucxked up!", and be clear of debt, you WILL be absorbing the cost of their crime.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Ummmm......try reading his post again. In context, he's talking about how quoting snips of verses can be made to say anything at all, even something ridiculous like go hang yourself.
Course, actually reading the post and thinking about it might mean stepping outside your assumptions about religious people...
Never mind
Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!!
No more calls please, we have a winner.
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Even as I type this, the old ditty about fools rushing in occurs to me. Anyway, on I rush...
First, a little context. In the 19th century, higher criticism, largely hailing from Germany, began to reshape biblical scholarship in the mainline Protestant denominations. While it had many different permutations the essential anti-supernaturalist presuppositions were essentialy the same for all the various schools. Since, from a rationalist point of view, miracles were impossible and God was unknowable, the bible could not be His revelation to men and the contents were clearly ancient mythology. This led many seminary and university faculties to turn from seeking to exposit the scriptures to focusing on deconstructing them and speculating endlessly on their origins. Meanwhile, many churches and churchmen freed from belief in the accuracy of the bible and the need to preach the gospel (after all if sin, salvation, heaven, and hell were all mythological constructions replaced by confidence in light-bulbs and psychology why bother going on about them?) turned instead to preaching what became known as the "social-gospel."
This social gospel had as its agenda creating the kingdom of heaven here on earth. The teaching of Christ and the apostles and OT prophets were redacted down to a system where the Christian message of eternal salvation through faith in Christ was replaced by a crass moralism in which people were told to be good, follow the golden rule, avoid demon drink, and do works of charity, etc. They were told that if everyone simply strove to be ethical, heaven on earth would be created and all men would live in harmony. Instead of people being redeemed, the social-gospel sought to reform society. This end was to be achieved via preaching and political activism. The movement came to be known as Christian liberalism (although politically, its aims were often quite conservative), and was vigorously opposed by what came to be known as Christian fundamentalists (who got their name from a series of pamphlets called "The Fundamentals" which called for evangelicals of all denominations to unite behind the essential or core teachings of the bible such as the Innerancy of Scripture, Divinity of Christ, Exclusivity of the Gospel, the Virgin Birth , etc.)
While the First World War put paid to the idea that Christian liberalism could create "heaven on earth" (after all it had become the dominant theological paradigm in both Britain and Germany prior to WW1) and led many in Europe and the USA to abandon Christianity entirely as hypocritical nonsense, it had already conquered most of the mainline denominations (the Episcopalians, the Northern Presbyterians, the Congregationalists, UCC, United Methodists, etc.) so what where these churches and churchmen to do and preach? The only answer they could offer was to continue to use the pulpit to advance political ends and social aims. So these churches strove to figure out where the progressive edge of society was going and then jump in front and claim to be leading the way. Over the years then, churchmen (and increasingly churchwomen) played a leading role in advocating for progressive causes such as women's suffrage, penal reform, prohibition, the war on poverty, civil rights, nuclear disarmament, the abolition of the death penalty, environmental activism, and nowadays abortion on demand, euthanasia, homosexual marriage, anti-big tobacco and so on.
In all of these causes the scriptures were ransacked and quoted entirely out of context. After all, their original meaning was distrusted and dismissed by liberal Christianity, so why not put them (and the respect they still had with the populace) to some "good" use?
Which brings us to the current day and Mr. Gonsalves. Mr. Gonsalves is a frequent spokesman for various left-wing political causes and social activism organisations (for instance this one (http://www.workingforchange.com/column_lst.cfm?AuthrId=39) ) and true to the time-honored liberal Christian methodology has employed a few quotes from a Bible he does not believe to support a political cause he fervently believes will make the world a better place.
Personally, I detest both liberal and conservative "social gospels" because merely striving to improve society by political means was never the objective of Christ or the authors of the bible. Rather the ultimate objective of all the books of the bible was summed up in the famous "tellic note" (from the Greek word tellos meaning "ends") of John 20:30-31:
"And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."
Ultimately the aim of the Bible is precisely what liberal Christians have long denied, to make God known to His fallen Creation via an authentic testimony, and then through faith in His Son, to reconcile God and Man and open the gates of heaven to redeemed sinners. The essential change in character this transformation of heart produces will have social benefits (via good works, etc.) but ultimately that was never the ends of the bible, just a by-product of salvation.
Now men may not believe that message of salvation, but to turn the bible into a quote book for whatever the political cause celebre' of the day is (especially when you don't believe a word of it) and then claim the high ground while doing so really is beyond the pale.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Ultimately the aim of the Bible is precisely what liberal Christians have long denied, to make God known to His fallen Creation via an authentic testimony, and then through faith in His Son, to reconcile God and Man and open the gates of heaven to redeemed sinners. The essential change in character this transformation of heart produces will have social benefits (via good works, etc.) but ultimately that was never the ends of the bible, just a by-product of salvation.
Now men may not believe that message of salvation, but to turn the bible into a quote book for whatever the political cause celebre' of the day is (especially when you don't believe a word of it) and then claim the high ground while doing so really is beyond the pale.
- SEAGOON
:aok
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thanks seagoon... I have allways felt that the church should stay out of social matters except for it's own charitable works.. One of the main things that drove me away from religion was their political bent. Once you realize that they are a political animal it is easy to shun them.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
thanks seagoon... I have allways felt that the church should stay out of social matters except for it's own charitable works.. One of the main things that drove me away from religion was their political bent. Once you realize that they are a political animal it is easy to shun them.
lazs
yup I agree
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This question isn't an academic one for me either, our Friday morning bible study is mostly made up of Black factory workers who are life-long Democrats, while our Wednesday night Bible study is mostly white military guys who are all strongly Republican, if I were to develop a penchant for injecting my party politics into my preaching and teaching, I would inevitably make myself unnecessarily obnoxious to one group or another. So, I stick to alienating friends and family, (oh and you lads - sorry), with political banter.
A while back I was sent an questionaire from a prof. at a local university who was working on a thesis advocating greater involvement on the part of clergy in partisan political issues (if you can believe it). After filling out his questionaire I attached the following letter [my apologies for the length]:
Dear Dr. ...,
In answering the questions included, I wish to note that I have done so as a private citizen, and not in my official capacity as the pastor of Providence PCA church. While it is commonplace these days for preachers to address political issues from the pulpit or even to invite politicians to speak in their churches on the Lord’s Day, our denomination strongly affirms the principle that the calling of pastors is to preach the Gospel, rather than to become involved in disputations over the political issues of the day. This does not mean that we may not speak to ethical issues, but only in so far as they are addressed in the Bible, and we would affirm the principle that Gospel ministers should avoid even the appearance of being involved in the party political activities. As Pastor R.B. Kuiper put it:
"Just because the preaching of the Word is so great a task the church must devote itself to it alone. For the church to undertake other activities, not indissolubly bound up with this one, is a colossal blunder, because it inevitably results in neglect of its proper task. Let not the church degenerate into a social club. Let not the church go into the entertainment business. Let not the church take sides on such aspects of economics, politics, or natural science as are not dealt with in the Word of God. And let the church be content to teach special, not general revelation. Let the church be the church."
The best summary of the dangers of Pastors becoming directly involved in civil affairs and thus becoming “political preachers” that I have yet read was in a short article written by the Presbyterian Theologian, R.L. Dabney in the 19th century:
PREACHERS AND POLITICS
By Robert L. Dabney
The appropriate mission of the minister is to preach the gospel for the salvation of souls. The servant who, by diverging into some other project not especially enjoined on him, nor essential for him to perform, precludes himself from his allotted task, is clearly guilty of disobedience to his master, if not of treason to his charge. Now, questions of politics must ever divide the minds of men; for they are not decided by any recognized standards of truth, but by the competitions of interest and passion. Hence, it is inevitable that he who embarks publicly in the discussion of these questions must become the object of party animosities and obnoxious to those whom he opposes. How then can he successfully approach them as the messenger of redemption? By thus transcending his proper functions, he criminally prejudices his appointed work with half the community, for the whole of which he should affectionately labour.
God has reserved for our spiritual concerns one day out of seven, and has appointed one place into which nothing shall enter, except the things of eternity, and has ordained an order of officers, whose sole charge is to remind their fellow-men of their duty to God. ... But when the world sees a portion or the whole of this sacred season abstracted from spiritual concerns, and given to secular agitations, and that by the appointed guardians of sacred things, it is the most emphatic possible disclosure of unbelief. It says to men, “Eternity is not of more moment than time; heaven is not better than earth; a man is profited if he gains the world and loses his soul, for do you not see that we postpone eternity to time, and heaven to earth, and redemption to political triumph—we who are the professed guardians of the former?” One great source, therefore, of political preaching may always be found in the practical unbelief of [the preacher] himself; as one of its sure fruits is infidelity among the people. He is not feeling the worth of souls, nor the “powers of the world to come,” nor “the constraining love of Christ” as he should; if he were, no sense of the temporal importance of his favorite political measures, however urgent, would cause the wish to abstract an hour from the few allowed him for saving souls. We solemnly protest to every minister who feels the impulse to introduce the secular into his pulpit, that he thereby betrays a decadent faith and spiritual life in his own breast. Let him take care! He is taking the first steps toward backsliding, apostasy, damnation.
Weak defences of this abuse have been attempted. It is asked, “Is not the minister also a citizen?” The answer is, “He is a citizen only out of the pulpit , and on a secular day. In the pulpit he is only the ambassador of Christ.” It is urged again, that Peter, Paul, and the Lord Jesus Christ, taught political duties. We reply: Would that the pests of modern Christianity had truly imitated them; had taken not only their texts, but their discourses from them, instead of deriving the latter from the newspapers. Let them do as the sacred writers do: teach the duties of allegiance from the Christian side and motive only, “that the word of God and his Gospel be not blasphemed.” Another plea is, that Christianity is designed to produce important collateral results on the social order of nations; as that the social order reacts on Christianity. The answer is twofold: that these secular results are the minor, the eternal redemption of souls is the chief end of God in his Gospel.
...
“The preacher’s business is just to show the people what is in the Bible,” as God has there set it forth. This principle cuts up by the roots the whole fashion of “preaching up the times,” as it was quaintly called by our Scotch forefathers. If the preacher’s business is the redemption of the soul, and his instrument is the Bible truth, it is plain that he has no business in the pulpit with …politics … and all the farrago of subjects with which infidel ministers of Christianity essay to eke out, as they suppose, the deficient interest and power of the message of salvation. The preacher’s business in the pulpit is to make Christians, and not to make … statesmen, historians, or social philosophers. His message from the pulpit is that which God has put into his mouth, and nothing else. The question may be asked: “Are Bible principles never to be applied, then, to the correction of the social evils of the day by those who are the appointed expounders of the Bible?” So far as God so applies them in the Bible, yes; but no farther. Let the preacher take the application of the principles, as well as the principles applied, from the word of God; let him take, not only his starting position but his whole topics, from God’s word, and he will be in no danger of incurring that sarcasm, as biting as it is just, directed against those who “take their texts from the Bible, and their sermons from the newspapers.” Many preachers seem to think that if it is a scriptural principle which they use, it matters not how unscriptural or extrascriptural is the use which they make of it. They forget that it does not follow, because a man has drawn his weapon from the king’s armory, that therefore he is fighting the king’s battle; soldiers have sometimes used the sovereign’s arms to fight duels with each other. It may be asked again: “Is the preacher to forego and disuse all that influence for social good which his Christian intelligence gives him? Has he ceased to be a citizen and patriot because he has become a minister? No. But when he appears in the pulpit he appears not as a citizen but as God’s herald. Here is a very simple and obvious distinction much neglected. The other channels of patriotic influence are open to him which other citizens use, so far as he may use them without prejudice to his main calling. To cleave to this alone is made his obvious duty by three reasons. The importance of the soul’s redemption is transcendent. All social evils, all public and national ends, sink into trifles beside it. Hence God’s ministers owe this practical tribute and testimony at least to this great truth; to devote all the machinery and power of religious ordinances—that single domain into which the all-engrossing world does not intrude—to this one grand object. That minister is false to truth and to his Master who says by his conduct that there is anything on earth important enough to subtract one atom of sacred time or sacred ordinances from their one great object. Again, by securing the redemption of the soul, the preacher will secure all else that is valuable in his hearers. Let him make good Christians, and all the rest will come right without farther care. ... And last, he who undertakes the work of the social philosopher, the legislator, the politician, will diminish his energies, zeal, time, and influence for promoting his higher object. He will waste on the less those energies of head and heart which were all needed for the greater. He will shut up his access for good to all the minds which are opposed to him on these secular questions, and thus incur a hindrance which will incapacitate him for his own Master’s work, by undertaking work which belonged to other people. What is this but treason?
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Two great posts Seagoon. I appreciate your input.
Not to hijack but:
I have to ask you as a man of the church if you've seen the new show on ABC I beleive called "revelation"?
I've been watching it and as entertaining as it is as a show it does not seem wholey accurate as far what I've been taught about "revealations".
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Hi Gunslinger,
I wish I could be of more help, but I haven't watched much on the big three networks in the past 5 years (I believe the series is actually on NBC) - to tell the truth the limited time I get to watch TV is mostly spent on Netflix rentals, blipping between News channels, and of course the history channel.
It doesn't surprise me that you aren't seeing much bible to TV match up, I haven't seen anything even vaguely biblically accurate on the networks in years (Noah 's Ark - also NBC - was the last attempt I struggled through). My guess would be a network attempt to cash in on the interest generated by the "Left Behind" novels and the "The Passion of the Christ." I'm expecting bad theology , ecumenism, cultist crazies, and limited use of the dreaded "J" word. But I could be way off.
If I get any good stuff sent my way on the subject, I'll post it here.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Gunslinger,
I wish I could be of more help, but I haven't watched much on the big three networks in the past 5 years (I believe the series is actually on NBC) - to tell the truth the limited time I get to watch TV is mostly spent on Netflix rentals, blipping between News channels, and of course the history channel.
It doesn't surprise me that you aren't seeing much bible to TV match up, I haven't seen anything even vaguely biblically accurate on the networks in years (Noah 's Ark - also NBC - was the last attempt I struggled through). My guess would be a network attempt to cash in on the interest generated by the "Left Behind" novels and the "The Passion of the Christ." I'm expecting bad theology , ecumenism, cultist crazies, and limited use of the dreaded "J" word. But I could be way off.
If I get any good stuff sent my way on the subject, I'll post it here.
- SEAGOON
I've read the entire "left behind" series and I have to ask. With all the profecy rapture talk my parents give me, how biblicly accurate is the series. I realize it is a fictional representation but I'm more interested in the timeline. I've aslo read another book titled "101 questions about revelations" or something to that sort. It talks about 3 different types of timelines (beleifs) I'm curious which one you follow.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I've read the entire "left behind" series and I have to ask. With all the profecy rapture talk my parents give me, how biblicly accurate is the series. I realize it is a fictional representation but I'm more interested in the timeline.
:(
Scriptura scripturae interpres! Interpret Revelation with the Epistles and Gospels. :aok
I've aslo read another book titled "101 questions about revelations" or something to that sort. It talks about 3 different types of timelines (beleifs) I'm curious which one you follow.
Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism?
(by the way Gunslinger it's Revelation not revelations. Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine :D )
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Originally posted by Heiliger
:(
Scriptura scripturae interpres! Interpret Revelation with the Epistles and Gospels. :aok
Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism?
(by the way Gunslinger it's Revelation not revelations. Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine :D )
do ya think you could post a reply in lamens (SP) terms? :)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
do ya think you could post a reply in lamens (SP) terms? :)
Sorry sir. :o
Scripture interprets scripture, just make sure when you read Revelation, you do it through the lens of the rest of scripture.
:D
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Not an expert by any means, but I've heard the theological discussion in terms whether the rapture is to come before the tribulation (pretribulation); at the midpoint, when the antichrist desecrates the Temple (midtribulation); and after the tribulation, essentially at the same time as Jesus' return (post tribulation).
And for those who are not believers, and who might think that this uncertainty reflects Biblical unreliability or contradictions -- don't get the wrong idea. The Bible is not written as a historical textbook or a theological treatise. It's overriding goal is to point mankind towards understanding who God is, and toward developing an active, meaningful relationship with him. Prophecy of future events, and descriptions of past events, are of course included -- but they are presented in the context of calling individual people into relationship with a very real, adn very personal, God who is desperately in love with us and desperately wants to see us chose to love him.
The point of tribulational prophecy shouldnt be seen as being able to hedge some spiritual stock market -- the troubles to come (it seems to me) are meant to be literal and clear demonstration of just how far God is willing to push humans to get them to chose to wake up and come to him.
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Hmmm......
There are some that argue there is NO rapture, there will be NO rapture, there are NO scriptures that speak of the rapture.
The claim is the person that originally came up with the idea of a rapture was ill as in mentally.
Further there is a warning contained within the scriptures that one should NOT seek to escape via the air.
That the rapture shall be, or is, a tool to be used by the anti-christ.
That nowhere within scripture is anything found to support the rapture theory.
That the reference to clouds refers to the number of people reponding rather then the actual location of those people.
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm......
There are some that argue there is NO rapture, there will be NO rapture, there are NO scriptures that speak of the rapture.
The claim is the person that originally came up with the idea of a rapture was ill as in mentally.
Further there is a warning contained within the scriptures that one should NOT seek to escape via the air.
That the rapture shall be, or is, a tool to be used by the anti-christ.
That nowhere within scripture is anything found to support the rapture theory.
That the reference to clouds refers to the number of people reponding rather then the actual location of those people.
I have a good book at work that refutes some of these very claims very well. Unfortunatly its at work so no post about it from me till monday at best.
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I'll wait :)
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Originally posted by wrag
Hmmm......
There are some that argue there is NO rapture, there will be NO rapture, there are NO scriptures that speak of the rapture.
The claim is the person that originally came up with the idea of a rapture was ill as in mentally.
Further there is a warning contained within the scriptures that one should NOT seek to escape via the air.
That the rapture shall be, or is, a tool to be used by the anti-christ.
That nowhere within scripture is anything found to support the rapture theory.
That the reference to clouds refers to the number of people reponding rather then the actual location of those people.
You're main point is right ONLY in that the word "rapture" is not used. Jesus himself said that "the day of the Lord" would be like this:
Luke 17: 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
What would it be like?
I Thessalonians 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
And that day will come suddenly:
I Thessalonians 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
This day does not happen after everyone is dead -- some will be alive when he comes back:
I corinthians 15: 50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,
(in context with earlier phrases, he's referring to death, not slumber);
but we will all be changed– 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory?
I am not a theologian, but I am a believer. The quotes I pulled up quickly here show that the Bible DOES provide evidence for belief in a rapture, that believers WILL be taken in the midst of their daily activities, that Jesus WILL meet his people in the air (whether the clouds are people or water vapor seems irrelevant to me). Jesus does warn his people not to run all over chasing reports of his return -- because, well, the real event is supposed to be very hard to miss.
The antichrist rapture thing is kinda hard for me to address, because I jsut dont get how someone could pull that out. There are passages in revelation that talk about the Great Lie from the antichrist, and I suppose that if you were a writer who didnt believe the rapture were true you might take a stab at calling the rapture that Lie.....
And, well, the mentally ill guy contributing to a major theologic discussion sounds a bit like an atheist's dream urban legend, wouldn't you say?
There are scholars who take varying views about the details of all this. Some discussion centers on the timing of the taking up, whether it comes before, during, or after the last great troubles (or tribulation); some believe these passages refer to the time just before the final judgement. But, unless you want to make up doctrine apart from what the Bible actually says, you have to account for the above ideas.
Again, don't take this kind of controversy as a sign of internal conflict or contradiction in scriptures. The entire theme of God's message to humans -- the Bible -- is His continual efforts at making a relationship with we difficult, fractious, self serving beings. Prophetic revealings in scripture are not there just to give us the inside scoop; they're given to us as part of God's larger effort of helping us understand who we are and who he is. Naturally, they're not as complete or direct as a history book -- because that's not what they're in there for.
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Thanks Simaril,
That's pretty much what I read.