Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: GREENTENERAL on April 20, 2005, 06:39:53 PM
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I was just reading about the P-39 and was wondering if there was ever a decent model of this plane made.
The reason i was wondering, is because the lit i have read describes an endless list of modifications and failures, and hot potato games and so forth, but then i read that the soviets actually liked them as bottom feeders.
Did the soviets modify them, or something? or were they just better at that role than some other planes they had?
Is this even the same plane? Some of the lit throws P-39 around so much, it makes it hard for me to understand what version they are talking about, or what version had what.
Anyways, the story was interesting and very enigmatic. It just left me wondering whether the plane ever culminated into something good or not.
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it was a decent plane, a slong as it flew at treetop level....
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Yep, as long as it was doing low level work, it did just fine.
It served in the MTO with the 350th FG into August 44 and held it's own fine in it's engagements with LW fighters down low.
It was in the Pacific with the USAAF for about the same length of time.
If it had to go up high, it couldn't cut it.
An old Airwarrior friend of many of ours was a P39 pilot with the 345th FS, 350th FG and he enjoyed flying the 39.
Check the following thread for some photos and info on Earl and his 39
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130900&highlight=Earl+Miller
Dan/CorkyJr
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The P-39 is the most maligned plane in the game. In reality if it had been produced as originally designed it would have been the dominant "early war" fighter in the world. Even so it was an outstanding plane if employed correctly. It actually had the best K/D ratio of any allied plane in the ETO. In the east it was flown by more russian aces then any other plane. In the right hands it was a match for any plane on the eastern front right up till the end of the war.
http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/romanenko/p-39/index.htm
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Do a BBS search for P-39, there are several great threads here on it.
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The P-39 would be a good addition to both the US and Soviet plane sets.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
it was a decent plane, a slong as it flew at treetop level....
I loves to fly at treetop level
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I've never seen such mixed reviews for one aircraft. All the stuff I read on the other threads say basically the same..keep it low, it's great. or they hate it. They cant even agree on weather it looks good. Well, I'll tell you all that I am not an aircraft authority, but I am a master renderer and draftsman and master sculptor in all medium and I say.. it looks good!....thats final!...lol.
I guess the only question I have now is, How would it fare against other bottom feeders? and does it have any great advantages over them?
I haven't seen much info on it's munuverability and handling other than it was good at low levels. I'm thinking that it had to be a bit different than most, with that design.
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Yes it looked good. It was a ***** to work on. Rall shot down 50 of em. Didn't think much of it. Russians liked it. I think it was Yeager that said P-63 could outturn Mustang & thought it was better, even bought one for racing at Reno after war.
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outturning a mustang wasn´t difficult in reality, doesn´t say much ....
niklas
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It does say much that he thought it was a better airplane. I'm sure his assesment was based on more than just the turn.
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Squadron Signal has a good book on the P-39, so does Osprey. It has a somewhat complicated technical and operational history, but its a fascinating airplane to read about. Well worth reading up on. It was one of the early mounts in the Pacific and Med for the USAAF, and the Soviets (their greatest exponent) took delivery of more than 4000 of them during the war, in all varients.
There is so much more to WW2 than P-51s.
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Yeah for sure. here is the XP-40Q.
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Here is some data on that plane
http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/xp-40q_version.htm
Here is a three view
http://www.fronta.cz/index.php?sekce=1300&clanek=125
Here are some pics
http://www.pmc-thueringen.de/Modelle/Luft72/BBXP40.htm
Looks much cooler than old P-40's with redesigned scoops. Wonder how fast it would have gone with later merlins, 66-70
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Yep, as long as it was doing low level work, it did just fine.
Except in the Pacific, where it was routinely slaughtered by Zekes.
- oldman
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
I was just reading about the P-39 and was wondering if there was ever a decent model of this plane made.
The reason i was wondering, is because the lit i have read describes an endless list of modifications and failures, and hot potato games and so forth, but then i read that the soviets actually liked them as bottom feeders.
Any a/c with a single stage supercharger was a 'bottom feeder'. P-40, P-51, Spit Hurrie,........
Oldman, every a/c was 'slaughtered' by the Zeke in the first 6 months or so in the Pacific. When the tactics changed to use the advantages of your a/c, instead of the enemy's, the Zeke was 'slaughtered'.
In the first engagment by the 8th PG with P-39Ds near Lae on Apr 30 1942, they claimed 4 Zekes for the loss of 4 P-39s. Lt Col Wagner claiming 3 of the 4. By the end of 42 the P-39/P-400 of V FC had claimed 80 a/c for the loss of simular number of a/c. Osprey's P-39 Aces book has a nice evaluation vs the Zeke. 'Comparitively speaking, in performance the P-39 is believed to be about 10% better in every respect than the P-40, except in manueverability, in which the P-40 is slightly better.'
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the export version, the P-400 with the 20mm popgun and less armor was reported to perform nicely.
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Originally posted by agent 009
Yes it looked good. It was a ***** to work on. Rall shot down 50 of em. Didn't think much of it. Russians liked it. I think it was Yeager that said P-63 could outturn Mustang & thought it was better, even bought one for racing at Reno after war.
that's probably due to the poor skills of most Soviet pilots.
think about it: lots of people, lots of free planes from Uncle Sam....put them together and send them to battle. good ones survive, poor ones don't.
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Originally posted by agent 009
Rall shot down 50 of em. Didn't think much of it.
Do you have the breakdown for the other 225 a/c he claimed?
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Um not at hand. He did get a few Russian flown spits.
As for poor quality of Russian pilots, yes & no. Early in war yes, later no.
The other factor is that Russian airforce operated at low altitude for army cooperation. This gave germans advantage of the bounce.
Some german pilots who were transferred to med in 43 said Russians were better than Americans, but that it was down to the fact that the US pilots were green. Heinz Bar did say Americans were tougher than Brits, they would fight you all the way down,( as opposed to breaking off engagement I assume he means ).
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I have the complete breakdown, dates and type.
Takes compiling though.
If AH modells the P39 I think it would probably see as much use as the P40.
However, the P63 would definately be another story....;)
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its american!! must have it!!
cant wait to use them 2k bombs and 20 rockets!
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No, seriously Furbie, the Kingcobra was a fine, fast aircraft, and packed a punch.
But, of course me wants a Spit VIII and a IX LF +25 first, hehe.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
that's probably due to the poor skills of most Soviet pilots.
think about it: lots of people, lots of free planes from Uncle Sam....put them together and send them to battle. good ones survive, poor ones don't.
I think your completely underestimating the quality of the russian pilot...these are quotes from the german perspective....
One of the II. Gruppe's pilots, Leutnant Helmut Lipfert, later recalled: "Things did not go well for II Gruppe at Anapa. There were few contacts with the enemy but many losses. And it was not just the beginners and young pilots who failed to return, but some of the old hands as well." It was obvious that the Soviets were gaining in on the German fighter pilots' initial advantage in air combat.
The first encounters with Soviet pilots after his return from home leave convinced Grislawski that what he had been told by Krupinski was right, that the air fighting on the Eastern Front had grown more dangerous than ever
"I./JG 52 was stationed at the other end of Taman Airdrome. Grislawski grabbed a bicycle and rapidly made it to the first Gruppe's command post, located in a bus. He found his old friend Kabisch waiting for him outside. They hugged, and it felt as if the past four years were gone. Grislawski felt tears in his eyes, but not tears of joy.
"Man, Kabisch!" he gasped. "Why have you come here?"
Kabisch just shrugged his shoulders. "You know-war. . . I volunteered for pilot training, just like you. . ."
"But that's different!" Grislawski exclaimed with discontent.
Kabisch looked hurt.
"What do you mean? I'm a Feldwebel now, and. . ."
"That doesn't matter!" Grislawski interrupted him. "How many sorties have you made?"
"About twenty-five."
Grislawski shook his head.
"Helmut," he almost whispered. "You stand with one foot in the grave. This is no game, and things are no longer what they used to be here in Russia."
"Oh, come on, Alfred!" Kabisch patted Grislawski's back: "I just got my seventh. . ."
Feldwebel Helmut Kabisch, the old recruit trainer who had become a fighter pilot, was immensely proud of his seven first victories. The last one had been achieved against a LaGG-3 at 1620 hours on 20 April 1943.
But his rash attitude only increased Grislawski's preoccupation. "These damned greenhorns," Grislawski thought. "And now Kabisch too!"
"Look, Helmut!" Grislawski yelled. "Forget about all that rubbish with easy victories! You have to be damned cautious!"
Then he pulled Kabisch, who looked both disappointed and surprised, aside. When he was sure that no one was listening, he said:
"I have a suggestion, and I hope you will follow it. This is no place for a beginner! But I've got some connections. I can contact Hermann Graf, and he will use his influence to have you transferred to my gang. There I will be able to watch over you! You have to get at least fifty combat sorties before you've got any chance at all!"
But Kabisch wasn't intrigued at all by his old friend's suggestion. "Come on, Alfred," he said and sighed. "I don't need any babysitter. And besides of that, I've been with the second Staffel for a couple of weeks, and they all are swell guys."
With a feeling of hopelessness, Grislawski made another try: "Helmut, those swell guys will all be gone in fourteen days, or you will be gone! You might just as well go pick a suitable coffin right now. I guarantee that only under my wings will you be able to survive fifty sorties!"
But Kabisch's pride would not allow him to accept the proposal. Grislawski felt deeply sad when he returned to his biletting."
" On the Soviet side, the Lend-Lease Airacobra fighter planes of 16 GIAP (former 55 IAP, which had been adopted a Guards unit) and 45 IAP were in the forefront during the air combats throughout the day. These unit was two of III./JG 52's old enemies, since the battles over the Mius Front in late 1941, the Kerch Peninsula in May 1942, and the war in southern Caucasus during the previous fall. By now, both units had developed into two of the most experienced VVS regiments. The two most famous 45 IAP aces were the two Glinka brothers, Boris and Dmitriy. The latter, a Starshiy Leytenant, had been shot down by 7./JG 52's Jupp Zwernemann on April 15, 1943. But Dmitriy Glinka soon was back in action again. He had already been recommended to be appointed a Hero of the Soviet Union, and on 21 April, he bagged his twenty-first German aircraft. 16 GIAP, mustering the later so well-known Kapitan Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Grigoriy Rechkalov, and Starshiy Leytenant Vadim Fadeyev in its ranks, chalked up fifty-seven victories in the Kuban skies between 9 and 20 April 1943."
http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/kuban.htm
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Well, yet, under horrible combat conditions, the LW pilots racked up the ultimate scores on the eastern front, while losses there were relatively much much less.
I have the feeling that a good bulk of the red airforce was rather badly equipped, badly organized and rather green, while some units were absolutely elite.
I remember a quote from a LW pilot regarding the US fighters of the red airforce, - it was something like "bad news, for they had much better gunsights, so at least you would know they could shoot properly"
Apparently, many early soviet aircraft had only a point in the windshield.
Did anybody hear any more of this?
Anyway, the P63 was sent to USSR by the thousands AFAIK, and ironically, fighting the LW fighters down low, it was probably as good, or better than what the Allies had on the western front.
Except for range.....
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The Russian front was like the reverse of the western front. The Germans had the better altitude performance in the east.
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Well, yes, absoluely, but most of the fightings none the less took place at very low alt, and still the scores were completely amazing.
Just not enuff for victory....
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Actually the scores werent all that amazing at all, the german expertain were easily the best and most experienced pilots in the world....however the vast majority of luftwaffe pilots simply dissapeared into the abyss. The majority died within their 1st 15 to 20 sorties and many never even got to fire a shot in anger (that hit anything at least). The vast majority of kills were run up thru mid to late 42. By1943 the russians were a good match for the germans in the east.
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Originally posted by Angus
Well, yes, absoluely, but most of the fightings none the less took place at very low alt ...
That's my point. The Russians were best down low, the Germans medium alt, and the western allies at high alt. The western allies were doing to the Germans what the Germans were doing to the Russians. Attain a superior initial advantage in altitude and initiative. Attack with the advantage of dive speed (B&Z). Disengage at will.
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Originally posted by humble
I think your completely underestimating the quality of the russian pilot...these are quotes from the german perspective....
humble man, you are sort of disproving yourself here. the mere fact that your so-called greenhorn pilot got seven kills in his first 25 sorties shows that he was better prepared than his adversaries and flying a better aircraft.
as for the Me109 or the 190 being superior to the P39 or P63, there's no doubt about that.
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Willi Batz got his 237 in the space of a year. Most of it in 44. I think that was it, 237.
Have a read through the new Stackpole aces book. He had a tough encounter with one of Russia's top aces.
Barkhorn liked to outturn his Russian opponents. they say he once had a 40 minute dogfight.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
humble man, you are sort of disproving yourself here. the mere fact that your so-called greenhorn pilot got seven kills in his first 25 sorties shows that he was better prepared than his adversaries and flying a better aircraft.
as for the Me109 or the 190 being superior to the P39 or P63, there's no doubt about that.
I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything....simply presenting the information I'm aware of. The "greenhorn" in question didnt survive the year. He wasnt better prepared or in a better plane he was simply flying in good company in an area where the germans had superiority. Once they moved to the Kuban bridgehead he died....like many others on both sides
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As for the "superiorityof the 109 & 190....
As was written in the summary of the commander of 153d (28th Guards) IAP regarding the combat work in the Voronezh and West Fronts in July-August 1942, "The Airacobra aircraft is considered by the Germans to be the most dangerous enemy and should be engaged in combat only when they [the Germans] have numerical superiority and the advantage in altitude and surprise."
The regiment went into combat on 17 March 1943 from Korenovsk airfield, in the Kuban, as part of the 219th Bomber Division, 4th Air Army. The regiment fought in this subordination for the entire extent of the celebrated air campaign over the Kuban. It fought against the best German fighter squadrons: JG 51 (Mulders) and JG 3 (Green Hearts). During the period from 17 March to 20 August 1943, the regiment flew 1,625 combat sorties with a flight time of 2,072 hours. It conducted 111 aerial engagements, in which it shot down 167 and damaged an additional 29 enemy aircraft. Its losses were 30 Airacobras destroyed and 11 damaged.
The regiment had to face Luftwaffe aces from Udet, Green Heart, and Mulders squadrons. Already on the following day, 11 March, two P-39D-2s (138433 [11] and 446) went into repair. Nonetheless, the regiment quickly launched into the fight with the stubborn Teutons. On 23 March 8 Airacobras faced off against 30 Messerschmitts and shot down 13, losing 3 of their own. But this victory came at a terrible price. Two pilots, in order to change the course of a badly developing battle, consciously flew their damaged and burning aircraft into enemy airplanes and perished, destroying two Messers in the process. Sergeant N. Kudryashov was 19 years old and Senior Lieutenant I. Shmatko was in his twenties. B. B. Glinka was wounded in this battle-a round came straight through the cockpit of his P-39D-2, no. 138431
admittedly the "stubborn teutons" comment shows a political slant but all acounts show russian domination thruout the Kuban campaign
April aerial combats were particularly successful, when the pilots had a firmer grasp on their airplanes and tactics. During that month I. I. Babak shot down 14 fighters, Lieutenant Boris Glinka 3 fighters and 2 bombers, Senior Lieutenant Dmitriy Glinka 5 and 1, Sergeant I. Kudrya 5 and 1, Lieutenant N. Lavitskiy 1 and 2 respectively, and Senior Sergeant V. Sapyan 2 fighters. The regiment suffered losses as well, because its opponents were the "cream" of the Luftwaffe. 15 April 1943 is considered the "black day" of the regiment: D. Glinka and V. Sapyan were shot down at around 1300, and Senior Lieutenant M. Petrov and Sergeant Bezbabnov in the evening at around 1900. Erich Hartmann, a relatively new fighter pilot in III/JG 52, shot down one of the "evening" Cobras (41-38451 or 42-4606). This was the seventh kill (and first Airacobra) of the future top German ace of World War II, who finished his career in Soviet captivity with a score of 352 kills, some 345 of them on the Eastern front.
Altogether during two months of intense aerial combat over the Kuban, pilots of 45th IAP shot down 118 German aircraft, losing 7 Airacobras shot down and 8 damaged in combat or in accidents, 1 P-40E shot down and 1 destroyed in an accident. The regiment had the best results in the theater and was quickly, already by 10 May, re-equipped with new models of the Airacobra: P-39L, M, and N. The surviving intact old P-39D-2s (138416, 429, 456, and 458), P-39K, and P-40Es were handed off to the 16th Guards IAP and 298th IAP.
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There is no question that the german expertain had significant combat experience and were "pilot for pilot" equal or better than any group of combat pilots...however the overall quality of the russian pilots improved very quickly. By 1942 the elite russian units gained a state of rough equality with the elite german units opposing them. The definative aviation campaign on the eastern front occured in early 1943 at the Kuban bridgehead....basically the best of the luftwaffe met the best of the VVS in a running 6 month battle from which the luftwaffe never recovered. For every Willi Batz (one of the truelygreat aces of the war) there where a number of Gehard Homoths....
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/homuth.html
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What was highest month total on east front?, Graf 62?
Scholz, What part of Norway are you from? I am of Norwegian descent & am curious about the chicks & beer. Oh yeah and the history, ( Vikings), & fiord photos.
P.S. what nobody interested in XP40 Q?
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Here is a bit on Lang from nuther forum. 1st kill mar 43.
Lang, on the other hand, is still in it. Yes, many of his victories were East Front, but plenty of good pilots gained their majority on that Front (Hartmann and Krupinski just to name two), and it was far from being a cakewalk. His first victories came in March 1943, way late in the war, yet by the time he died in September 1944, he had 173, including 28 (9 Spitfires, 9 P-51's, 6 P-47's, and 4 P-38's) over the Western Invasion Front alone, the highest of any German ace. This came after only 403 missions--a 1:2.3 strike rate which is ridiculously high! Among other achievements: 18, 12, and 10 Russians in single days, 68 Russians in October 1943, 33 more in November, 3 RAF Spits in 5 min., 2 USAAF P-47's in 1 min., 2 USAAF P-38's in three minutes, 4 USAAF P-51s in 1 day, never shot down until death, when landing gear of his 190 fell open in flight and was bounced by P-51's (Shoot-down went to American Ace Darrell Cramer, 7 confirmed kills), Oldest German Ace in Luftwaffe. Just on the surface! This guy takes the cake for me.
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sounds like a liar just as likely as not
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Originally posted by agent 009
Scholz, What part of Norway are you from? I am of Norwegian descent & am curious about the chicks & beer. Oh yeah and the history, ( Vikings), & fiord photos.
Bodø - Northern Norway. Where's your family from?
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Bodö! Well, that's in what, Tromsen or Lofoten?
Heck you're probably further north than I am (64 N).
Anyway, back to topic:
"as for the Me109 or the 190 being superior to the P39 or P63, there's no doubt about that."
I belive a 109G will have it's hands full vs a P63 down low....
Oh, and finally, Agent, where do you live?
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Bodø is at 67°17'N, and is the capital of Norland County.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Bodø is at 67°17'N, and is the capital of Norland County.
we have a neighborhood here in miami called norland but it is populated by africans.
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Whoops, typo: It should be Nordland, not Norland.
Lol Storch.
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Where do I live, that's a good question. Currently west coast, Burbank at my sisters place. I live on road mostly. I sell art at colleges. & sell whatever is hot at malls at X-mas time. evry year, different mall.
My grandparents came from north Dakota, ended up in Utah where I grew up. Well utah & calif, both north & south.
Have they recovered the scream yet?
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I don't think so.
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Well nuff bout art then, how bout chicks & beer? A real cultural discussion.
Angus & Scholz, have you got a comparitive survey of which scandinavian country has the most promiscuos females?
Iceland has repealed the no alcohol in beer law no? I wonder who has best beer, Iceland or Norway.
Anyway, these are good things to know before one choose a vacation destination.
If you come to US, I might suggest Louisiana. 6.5 beer, & women fairly um shall we say open.
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Well, Iceland has the classical blonde stereotype, usually wearing black.
My wife is German.
And we have Beer, since 1989. Hereabouts all alcohol is, like in Norway, VERRRRYYYY expensive.
Since most Icelandic single females are blond and getting chubbier city girls, I think I would reccomend a Norwegian country girl for ya.
So, Scholzie, the task is yours, QUEST FOR HELGA, hehe.
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Well, I suspect this is somewhat of a hijack of a P-39/63 thread, but if you're looking for promiscuous Scandinavian women i guess ... Scandinavia would be a good place to go! :D
Seriously, Norway, Iceland, Sweden and Denmark are all pretty much the same when it comes to women. Denmark is perhaps the prominent party-nation of the four though. Sweden=blondes.
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Hijack continued....
"Seriously, Norway, Iceland, Sweden and Denmark are all pretty much the same when it comes to women. Denmark is perhaps the prominent party-nation of the four though. Sweden=blondes."
Umm, how do you know?
Anyway, a chubby blond can be found in every country.
I studied in Sweden, went to Norway for parties, and for a while I had a Danish girlfriend. How's that ;)
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Lucky bastidge! ;)
How do I know? Been there, done that ;) Well except Iceland, but you're like our Australia, so you can't be that different! :D
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Tsk Tsk....no, You're like our S-Africa.
Anyway, we left out Finland.
How was that possible?
:D
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Finland is not in Scandinavia silly ;)
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Perrkele. ;)
Umm, we (Icelanders) consider it to be one of the Northern countries.
And so are the Faroes.
BTW, the funnies place I've ever been was Greenland. It is our next neighbour, but completely a different thing.
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Sure, Finland is a Nordic country, but not Scandinavian. Come to think of it, neither is Iceland, only Nor/Swe/Dan, but hey, we still love you ... our former criminal cousins in the west. ;)
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Well, our former Norse bosses are well liked also.
Of course we were not exactly the criminal, but the non-royal and FREE.
We, still keep pirating of course, i.e. Norwegian-Icelandic fishing quarrels, and since we left with all the best looing women from Norway, we had to keep it in training, we cleaned Ireland and the UK, and I got some hammering for keeping at it in Germany.
EIN FRAUENKLAUER, they said, :D
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:lol