Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: agent 009 on April 21, 2005, 02:24:41 AM
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Don't know if this will be openable, but it is 2 graphs showing Mustang superior in climb & turn to Corsair. I have read the opposite. If graph is correct, Mustang is boss.
Attachment scanning provided by:
Files:
f4u_p_51.BMP (4.7MB) Save to Computer - Save to Yahoo! Briefcase
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Your file didnt work. P-51 is superior in climb to F4U-1s. But the F4U-4 could outclimb the P-51D.
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Good example to use would be the Soccer Wars back in the late 60's which pitted F-51's vs FG-4 and F4U4's. F4's won hands down.
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I thought the Soccer wars were notable for pitting F4Us against each other....google....seems Honduran F4U-5s knocked down 2 FG-1Ds & an F-51
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Soccer wars eh? interesting. How many of each were involoved?
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Good article in the latest International Air Power Review. 20 bux, but read it while yr at Boarders.
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Will do. Thanks Wolf.
& remember, before having sex with a model, make sure glue is dry 1st.
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LoL agent, that's a good 1!
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Good example to use would be the Soccer Wars back in the late 60's which pitted F-51's vs FG-4 and F4U4's. F4's won hands down.
What is a FG-4?
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Good example to use would be the Soccer Wars back in the late 60's which pitted F-51's vs FG-4 and F4U4's. F4's won hands down.
FG-4? Sorry man, FG-4 were canceled later after the War ended and believe 1 or 2 were made as 'prototype' then later destroyed.
Anyway, about Soccer War, Captain De Soto of Honduras Air Force, shot down a Mustang and two FG-1Ds aboard his own F4U-5 and another Hondruras Air Force pilot, Major Fernando Soto Henriquez flew F4U-5N and he shot down Mustang and two Corsairs.
Also, Please check this website out.
http://home.att.net/~historyzone/F4U-4.html
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
What is a FG-4?
Made by Goodyear Aircraft Company and it's same as Vought F4U-4 Corsair, but producation were canceled later after the war ended and possible that 1 or 2 were prototype then destroyed.
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Agent009,
Please post a link to your graphs.
I would luv to see them.
BTW,
Don't believe everything you read. Much of what is on the web is a bunch of #@$%^.
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I recall a game-fight (the story was posted somewhere here) where a F4U4 outmaneuvered a P51H. The F4U pilot was suposedly John Glenn. Anyone?
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F4U4 could out perform P-51D, but the P-51H can outperform the F4U4.
The story I recall is a P-51D and F4U-4 mock dogfighting. The P-51D pilot was astounded that the F4U-4 was making tighter maneuvers and getting on his tail.
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Comparison report: P51B VS F4U-1 and F4U-1A
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index2.html
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Wow, good stuff Milo.
Wish I could pick Eric Brown's brain. He didn't rate Corsair so high. He even said; I have no doubt whatsoever, a Corsair could not beat a 190 in combat.
Will try & send graph F4DOA. Have U got e-mail I can send to?
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Did any of the FAA Corsairs ever meet any LW fighters in combat? The were some Corsairs in combat in the North Sea
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Good question. i always screw this one up. Either Corsairs or Wildcats did. against 109's. 109's lost. will have to dig. It might be in the book Duels in the sky by Brown.
P.S. Rafe. I've read that Corsair article before. I think the climb stuff is bs-sci fi. Yak 3 could climb 5000 ft per min. Maybe it's Yak 3U. K-4 4820 ft per min. No way Corsair could touch that.
MK 14 Spit is either 4500 plus ft per min, or 4950. not sure which. Would be very surprised if Corsair was near that.
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RN Corsairs did engage LW fighters, just don't remember where.
So did RN Wildcats, and USN Hellcats. The Hellcats actually kicked the 109's around quite a bit!
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From Rafe's link:
Finally there is an area in which the P-51 cannot compete at all. The F4U was designed to operate from an aircraft carrier. What this provides for is a utility that is unmatched by the better land based fighters of WWII. The ability to operate at sea or from shore can never be over-valued.
The P-51D was carrier qualified. Their are several photos around of the qualification taken on the Shangi-la in late 44. The pilot of the P-51D-5NA, s/n 414017, was Robert Elder. Even the forward view while landing was not as restrictive as the F4U and F6F.
With the capture of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the urgency for this long range need subsided and the carrier P-51 project was cancelled.
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Never heard about soccer wars before this thread. Found this page: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_156.shtml
And more... http://www.laahs.com/artman/publish/article_19.shtml
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The P-51D was carrier quilified. Their are several photos around of the qualification taken on the Shangi-la in late 44. The pilot of the P-51D-5NA, s/n 414017, was Robert Elder. Even the forward view while landing was not as restrictive as the F4U and F6F.
With the capture of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the urgency for this long range need susided and the carrier P-51 project was cancelled.
Hi Milo,
I've heard this story and have seen pictures as well (can't remember where though). I also vaguely remember that the low speed handling of the P-51 was considered unsatisfactory and that the Navy disliked liquid cooled engines. Maybe they were also a bit biased because it was an Army plane. Any more on this?
Regards,
Ronald
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hogenbor, I hate you.;) Now you make me type a lot.:D
Elder
"Early on in the testing (~150 landings were made at Mustin on a marked out deck) it became apparent that the airspeed band between min. and max. engaging speed as defined by wind over the deck and a/c structural tolerances, was indeed narrow. To be exact , hard over right rudder occured when stabilized at 82mph in the approach configuration and structural limitations under specific hook loads peaked at slightly less than 90mph. I, therefore used 85mph as target approach speed. Fortunately, the little lady exhibited marvelous speed control characteristics and even though operating at near min. margins of directional and lateral contollability (limited by torgue), wave offs could be executed by judicious applications of power.
Landing attitude was the one critical factor most worthy of comment because of either premature main wheel contact with the deck prior to hook engagement or an inflight engagement prior to tail contact, would certainly have configured the test a/c and possibly the pilot.
Visibility forward during theapproach was quite good and caused no problems at all in alignment or landing the a/c. In fact, some of the radial fighters of the era, notably the F4U and F6F with cowl flaps open, had considerably more restricted forward visibility. In any case, I simply made a turning approach almost to touchdown as was the practice at the time.
I have seen what you mentioned but Elder's comments don't seem to support this.
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Agent009,
My email is markw4@comcast.net
FYI that is my webpage where you were reading the F4U-1 vrs P-51B report.
I have many more reports on the page, F4U vrs FW190 etc.
My Web Page (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/)
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Originally posted by Angus
RN Corsairs did engage LW fighters, just don't remember where.
So did RN Wildcats, and USN Hellcats. The Hellcats actually kicked the 109's around quite a bit!
Mostly a few Corsair did engage against the LW Fighters and Bombers, but don't recall If they ever shoot one down and mostly the Corsairs were damage or destroyed by LW Bombers while they attacking the FAA Carriers in somewhere close to Italy in probably late 1943.
Both Wildcats and Hellcats ('Ace Maker') did really kick in the bucket against the Bf 109s and Fw 190s that the USN and FAA pilots did really well while flying these fighters. I believe that US Navy VOF-1 and VF-74 with Wildcats/Hellcats were only USN squadrons in ETO, but I might be wrong on this one.
PS. Agent009 (Including you, F4UDOA), Probably your right about the BS on the article and I thought it was right that someone post the link last year spring that I was interesting again, but a friend of mine told me it wasn't right about the Climb Rate.
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A pdf file on the -4.can be found here, http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/
The performance summary chart gives 4770f/m @ SL and 4.9 min to 20,000ft.
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4770 fpm, holy dogfarts batman!
Well, so far looks like Corsair smokes Stang. Sakai said Hellcat was only US plane that could match Zero through any maneuver.
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I have seen a Spit IX with 4.9 mins to 20K somewhere.
Anyway, the climbaster is definately the 109K. I've heard 4.5 mins to 20K.
But for a heavy fighter like this, wow!
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
A pdf file on the -4.can be found here, http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/
The performance summary chart gives 4770f/m @ SL and 4.9 min to 20,000ft.
Wow, I'm so damn impressed about F4U-4 fully load information!
Thanks for the link, MM!
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Agent,
Three points of interest.
1. In TAIC (Technical Air Inteeligence Command) between the A6M5, F6F-5 and F4U-1D the F4U-1D outclimbed both the Zero and F6F-5 to 20K.
2. In test between the FW190A-5, F6F-3 and F4U-1D the F4U was superior to the F6F-3 and superior to the FW190A-5 in climbs at 140Knots (160MPH). Above that speed the FW190 was superior. Also this test was done without the paddle prop on the F4U as was installed in early 1944.
3. In climb test against the P-51B the F4U-1A (Not only the -4) the F4U outclimbed the P-51B to 20K.
Also two other notable comparisons.
Check out the climb rate chart of the P-51D/F-51D in the pilots manual. It list the climb rate at Mil power at 10,200lbs or less. Climb rate at sea level is 2400FPM and a climb time to 20,000 FT of 9 minutes. This test is dated 1953 with wing racks only and no external ordinace.
By comparison the F4U-1D flight manual list the mil power climb as 2700FPM at sea level and 8 minutes to 20K. This at 11,700LBS.
The test only show how some manufactures performance numbers can be a bit "fluffy".
In head to head test much of this is brought out into the light.
This is a great report to read. The Army test are really interesting in the back of the report. They show the P-47D out accelerating the P-51D and P-38L. Also interesting to note is how little these "Fast diving" airplanes where able to pull ahead of the Zero in a dive despite their reputations.
A6M5 vrs F4U-1D/F6F-5 (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/TAICzero.pdf)
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Here is an interview with Marine Ace Phillip Delong on his encounter with 4 Yak-3 or 9's vrs him and his wingman in F4U-4's with bombs, napalm and Rockets attached.
F4U-4's win 4 - 0.
DeLong: "We were climbing through two thousand feet when we saw four aircraft approaching us from the northwest at five thousand feet. My wingman, Lt. Harold Daigh, identified them as F-51 Mustangs, so we believed them to be friendly. For this reason, we didn't pay much attention to them as they turned toward us in a loose right-echelon formation. Suddenly, I became aware of what we were facing when one of their seven-point-seven millimeter rounds entered my cockpit and damaged my radio! Right after that, there were several more ‘thumps,' which were more rounds hitting my aircraft."
The Marine Corps operated four day-fighter Corsair squadrons during most of the war. One specialized squadron, however, flew at night, and its exploits during pitch-black nights over North Korea's mountains and valleys were well known throughout FEAF. The F4U-5N Corsair shown here was one of those night stalkers from VMF (N)-513. Note the radar pod on the tip of the right wing. This was taken in 1951 at Pohang AB South Korea (courtesy of John Corrigan via author).
Lt. Daigh was maneuvering to get behind Yak-9 nos. 3 and 4 when his efforts to dump his ordnance failed! Despite the weight, he pressed the attack and opened fire on the closest one but didn't see any results. Immediately, he shifted his attention to Yak no. 4 and fired a long burst, scoring hits on the wing and fuselage. Seconds later, its wing broke off and it plummeted straight into the ground. In the meantime, Capt. DeLong had his hands full with other problems.
DeLong: "As soon as I was fired on, I executed a quick split-S maneuver to pick up speed. When the fight started, my maps were spread out in my lap, so now I was trying to evade the Yak's guns with my cockpit full of loose maps, which did not help my visibility! I had to get rid of them somehow so I'd be able to fight effectively. These were the tensest moments of the entire mission because you have to remember that we were only at two thousand feet when the fight started! In seconds, I stowed the maps and recovered from the dive, climbing sharply to the left."
This particular Yak flight was either flown by pilots who had survived aerial combat on many earlier occasions, or by fearless and aggressive instructor types. The dramatic loss of the first Yak did not deter the others. They continued to press the fight.
DeLong: "Two of the Yaks made another pass on me from astern, but I was able to turn the tables. While I was still in my defensive turn, one of the enemy fighters crossed in front of me from right to left. I hit it with a solid burst that did significant damage. The Yak began to stream black smoke, nosed over and went straight into the ground about half a mile from where Lt. Daigh's kill had crashed. Things were happening so fast and furious that I didn't realize I was still carrying my bombs. I jettisoned everything except my rockets. I decided that I might be able to use them if the remaining two Yaks proved too tough, or if others joined the fight."
There may have been a few incidences during the Korean War in which air-to-ground rockets were fired at another hostile aircraft, but as erratic as these rockets were, their chance of hitting anything was small. A lucky direct hit on any aircraft would have resulted in a fiery explosion and a certain "kill."
DeLong: "The fight continued to heat up as I sharply banked to the left and chased two Yaks out in front of me. Lt. Daigh was behind the first one, and the second one was right on his tail. I radioed him about the danger, and he cut to the left, causing the trailing Yak to overshoot him. Seconds later, Daigh nailed him with a burst, and the Yak began to trail smoke from its cockpit and wing root. I closed on the one out in front, and as soon as I squeezed off a quick burst, I saw smoke, but this one wasn't ready to call it quits!"
The Yaks were all fast and very maneuverable, but their construction wasn't as rugged as that of the Corsairs and Mustangs. They possessed good firepower and, in the hands of a good pilot, gave Marine pilots plenty of cause for concern. These aircraft had given the veteran Luftwaffe pilots plenty of trouble during the last half of WW II. The North Koreans had been given a significant number of these aircraft in the late 1940s for their fledgling air force.
DeLong: "As soon as I hit the Yak, he split-S'ed. I followed him into the maneuver and continued to score hits, and as the rounds chewed into their mark, pieces of the aircraft fell off and trailed past me. Seconds after I let up on my guns, the Yak pilot stopped using evasive tactics, and at that moment, I knew he was finished. Then I realized that I still had all of my rockets, so I selected the rocket launcher and hit the switch; nothing happened. Without losing a beat, I fired another burst from my guns, and that finished him off. Seconds later, papers, maps etc., flew out of the Yak's cockpit as he jettisoned his canopy and bailed out."
The Yak crashed into the water below, and Capt. DeLong racked up his second kill of the day. The enemy pilot parachuted safely into the water, and as the helicopter was on its way to pick up the downed Corsair, DeLong radioed that they should also try to pick up the Yak pilot, but the communication was never received. There had been four Yak-9s in the fight against the two Corsairs, and all were shot down, but only three confirmed.
Of course, it isn't over until the fat lady sings!
DeLong: "The dogfight had lasted about ten minutes, and we had shot three down and had one ‘probable.' Fortunately for Lt. Daigh, a few days later, UN forces found a Yak in shallow water within the same area, and this was all that was needed to upgrade the ‘probable' to a confirmed kill. It was a day that I'll long remember, and the only thing that could have made it better was to have taken one of the Yaks out with one of my rockets!"
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Thanks for posting about Capt. DeLong interview, F4UDOA and it really impress me more. :)
Another thing, What about F8F Bearcat? Anyone got to say about F8F specification against F4U-4 specification?
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So, can one assume, from Captain LeDong's account, that shell casings ejected from F4U wings broke the external wiring on HVARs just as had been reported by 9th AF P-47 pilots?
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Rafe,
F8F comparisons can be found in this doc I scanned a while back.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/MSWF4UDATA.pdf (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/MSWF4UDATA.pdf)