Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on April 22, 2005, 12:29:40 PM
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Hiya guys!
I won't bore y'all with all my flights, but I'm an attention potato, so, here's at least a couple more.
As you know, I got my PPL a couple weeks ago. The day afterward, I packed the rest of my clothes in my car and drove from Los Angeles up to my new home in Springfield, OR. It's about a 900 mile drive, and I feel pretty good about the 11 hour time I made. My 1999 Buick Regal cruises nice and smooth at, well, what would best be described as 'V' speeds for some aircraft (and I'm not talking Vs0).
I moved into my new house where my wife and kids have been living the past few months and started my new job for real. I had so much work to do those first few days that I couldn't get out, but I eventually scoped out the neighboring airports and decided that Creswell's Hobby Field (named after some guy named Hobbenfeld or something, amusingly enough, and not the word 'hobby') would suit my needs best. The other airport (Eugene, OR's Mahlon Sweet field) is nice, but it doesn't feel super general aviation friendly, and it's 'spensive! $95+ an hour to rent, schnikeys! The FBO at 77S, on the other hand, rents Cessna 152s for $60 an hour (or $50 if you pay an annual fee that breaks even around 30 hours, very interesting).
"Why, sure, I can fly a Cessna 152!" I said to myself. Sure, it's a two seater airplane, but I need something cheap to timebuild in, and our sizable tax bill took the air out of my plans to buy a plane for now, so this will be perfect. Not only that, but it's hard to beat the price.
I bought myself some AOPA renter's insurance, then went down to the FBO and presented my bona fides. The instructor had me do their pre-solo exam, then we went out and did some flying together in the plane.
Now, I'll pause the narrative here for a moment to talk about the expectation versus reality phase when it comes to the Cessna 152. As some of you may have read, scientists recently discovered the remains of a race of small people (in the news, they were referred to as 'hobbits'). After examining the C-152, it is my determination that said plane was in fact designed in anticipation of these small people learning to fly.
My expectation was that the C-152 would essentially be a two seater version of the Cessna 172, which I always felt was essentially a high-wing version of the Piper Warrior that I luxuriated in during my training. This expectation was not... entirely... accurate.
The seats were, I decided, added after the major design was complete. I can imagine the conversation at Cessna Corp went something along the lines of this:
Designer 1: Let's go ahead and put together a preliminary weight and balance sheet and take prototype 1 out to the hangar for taxi tests.
Designer 2: Great idea! Hmm, I get this feeling we're missing something....
Designer 1: You mean world war 2? Ha ha ha ha! (you see, it's an old design, so I thought I'd add something topical)
Designer 2: Well, I wouldn't say I've been MISSING it, but.. no, there's something else.
Designer 1: While you think of that, let me just put the W&B sheet in the back pocket of the seat here....wait...
(both designers): Uh-oh.
Designer 2: This complicates things.
Designer 1: I agree. Any suggestions?
Designer 2: Well, I recently read this new book by a fellow named Tolkien....
We go out to the airplane and I am immediately struck by the fact that this craft has an excess of doors. I have been learning in the one door Piper Warrior, so I immediately decide that having two doors is an extravagance, but I'm willing to go with the flow.
I climb into the left seat. When I write it, it looks so simple on the screen. The shortness of that sentence is deceptive. It's akin to "I made the atomic bomb, then set it off." The actual process of inserting my 6'2, 260lb frame into the aircraft shared traits in common with the ancient art of 'origami', also known as 'goodness, what a clever thing to do with that doggy bag, Mr. Waiter!'. I examined and immediately discarded the idea of using the step on the landing gear. I carefully stretched my right leg into the cockpit, then performed a complex dance where I attempted to coerce the rest of my body to spontaneously flow in after it. Half a minute and a couple brushes with death later, I was seated. Once I was in place, it wasn't so bad, and I began to second guess my earlier augenblick determination that the plane was too small. Seconds later, however, my instructor joined me in the cockpit and I realized immediately that my initial impression was, if anything, generously optimistic.
The two of us were pressed in pretty snugly, and I had a momentary flash of what it must feel like inside a sardine can. The only thing missing was the overpowering smell of fishy olive oil, but I figured that the day was young and I shouldn't make any assumptions.
After some maneuvering and adjusting, I decided that this would work, especially after I get checked out in the plane and have the cockpit to myself.
We scheduled a flight, and I went back to work and made some nice checklists and had them laminated.
Tuesday afternoon, I met up with Paul at the airport and went and preflighted the plane for the first time. I was very slow and methodical, as it was my first time pre-flighting a Cessna, and I had a couple of questions about some things that are different. For example, the Cessna (like the Piper) has its fuel stored in the wings. Unlike the Piper, the wings are located atop the aircraft in an entirely inconvenient manner. Consequently, to check the tanks, you have to climb atop the plane and perch precariously while you check the levels, verify fuel quality, etc. Getting down from the plane was closer to a controlled fall then a descent, but I've managed it so far without major injury.
I started up the plane, taxied out to the runup, and when we were done, did a 360 pirouette to look for traffic (the airport is completely uncontrolled) and then took off.
The plane was very different feeling, and as we maneuvered, I felt like I was learning from the beginning all over again. Different speeds, different sounds, it got my attention. I did stalls, steep turns, climbing and descending turns, etc. The instructor seemed pretty satisfied with most of my flying, reassuring me whenever I berated myself that it was a new plane, then noting my immediate improvement when I got it right the next try. As it turned out, all the same concepts worked the same way and, after a little practice, I could pull off the same precision of flying as I did in my other plane, so I was heartened.
We ran out of time, so I brought us back for a landing and we scheduled another flight for Thursday to go over flights to Eugene (so I know my alternate) and emergency procedures.
(continued)
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Yesterday, I go out and we takeoff. This time, he lets me do everything on my own, and I do okay except for a couple of stupid but small pooches.
We take off, and as we're climbing, he pulls back the throttle and tells me I just lost my engine. I immediately set up best glide (60 knots instead of 73) and begin working my emergency checklist. Unfortunately, I quickly realize that even though I know what to do, the different location of controls slows me down and I get halfway through it before the instructor aborts the test and says we'll practice that later. Humbled, I vow to practice the procedures ahead of time more adamantly. He says he wants us to practice some landings, and I suggest that we kill two stones with one bird and do the practice at Eugene airport so I can get the lay of the land. He agrees and starts to set the radios, but I tell him I want to do it all myself so I can verify that I know all my stuff. He sits back, and I dial in the Eugene ATIS and listen to the spiel, setting my altimeter, noting the various winds and runways, and getting the code. I then dial in Cascade Approach. Even though Eugene is a class D airport like Santa Monica, the fact that it's has airliners working out of it means that they like to coordinate through a couple of layers of control. It feels to me, after a flight there, that Eugene is like a Class D airport that itches to be Class C.
"Cascade Approach, Cessna niner four niner four golf five miles north of Creswell at two thousand five hundred, landing at Eugene with Juliet for touch and goes." The instructor nods, and Cascade Approach gives me a unique squawk code and tells me to make traffic for runway 34 and left traffic afterwards. I decode their instructions to mean that I will enter on right base for 34, and make left traffic afterwards. Again, the instructor nods. I point myself at where I expect Eugene airport to be and start flying. I know the area from the ground, but seeing it from the air is different. I pick out the Fern Ridge reservoir ('mud puddle' apparently isn't as catchy) and know where it is in relation to that, so I don't bother looking at my chart. After a minute of flying, I spot the airport right off my nose, and I'm pretty satisfied with myself.
Approach hands me off to Eugene tower, and they vector me a little to give a jet that's landing a chance to slip in ahead of me. I'm guessing that an RJ-700 might be somewhat inconvenienced if it were stuck behind a 60 knot Cessna 152. I descend, turn final, and come in for a landing. It goes fine, I take off again, and we proceed to do two more landings in the pattern. I hit my marks each time, and the soft field landing I do is very smooth (enough that I get a compliment from the instructor, always good). I'm not perfect, I have a tendency to come in hot because I have those Piper Warrior speeds burned into my head, but I get better.
Finally, we depart the pattern back to Creswell. I do a couple landings there, one of them with a super wide pattern that displeases the instructor and me, but the landing is ok and we taxi back to parking.
I'm not satisfied with my reaction time on the emergency checklist and the last landing I made, so I ask the instructor if we can do another flight together before I solo, and he's fine with that. He shows me a quick work flow from right to left for working the emergency engine out checklist that can also be used almost intact for the shutdown checklist, and I practiced that last night while watching TV. My wife looked at me strange a couple times while I sat there, doing a little dance with my hands (hey now) as I pantomimed hitting the various controls in order while whispering the names to myself, but the kids seemed to enjoy the show.
Today, I'll go up again, and pretty soon I'll start flying all over Oregon on my lonesome, working on becoming super ace pilot #1.
Of interest, I just found a flight school an hour away from me that has a PA-38 Traumahawk they'll be renting out in a few months, so I'll head down there and get checked out in it when it's ready so I can decide if the Tomahawk is really what I want to buy or not. I think I'll also get checked out in the ancient Cessna 172 the Creswell school has (old enough that the displays are in MPH instead of Knots) so I can carry passengers when I'm ready.
Well, there you go! I'll try not to spam the message boards with this stuff too much, just wanted to write again because documenting those other lessons were fun.
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Great story Chairboy. You got my attention and kept it all the way. :)
Congrats and wtg.
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interesting read, but being a "normal" sized person (5'8",180#), i fit into a 152 just fine. lol
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yikes, your instructor weigh like 100 pounds? If not double check your cg on the 152. I weigh less then you and cant fly it with anyone over 160 or so in it with me.
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Thanks Chairboy, I really miss more flying stories such as the ones you post. Come on people, I know there are more pilots out there, share your experiences will ya? :)
I won't bore you with aerobatic training, it's always the same and it's plain dull talking about it.
Here are some pics tho:
(http://casal.upc.es/danig27/fotos/zlin1.jpg)
(http://casal.upc.es/danig27/fotos/takeoff.jpg)
(http://casal.upc.es/danig27/fotos/1113746619.jpg)
Daniel
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chair...we have an old squaddy who flies alot up there..he just finished his ME rating...
he was...its alwasy good to knwo fellow Ah flyers who really fly and live close by..
Dammit i love flying..I have about 40 hours in the c152..I liek it more then the cherokee...I love the squirrly handling of it..although i do get a bit tireed of rudder ..Dam ruddder trim is a sweet thing
Your emergency checklist reminds me of my first night solo flight..Which i wasnt even supposed to do..wow ..what a ride..The instructor the next day reading his logs and says.."Bryan..did you fly at night yesterday"?..Well Kind of..when I took off..the sun was still up..when I landed..it was down.....OOps..Am i in troubel.....?...No...we wotn talk about this..lolo
But..really reminded me..of KNOWING WHERE ALL BUTTONS are..IN THE DARK!!!
Dammit I love flying
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and cryano..are u really in spain...dammit..does anyone knwo anyone in Northen Cali area that will teach aerobatics?
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CG in a 152? pffft. if you can get the doors closed the thing will fly :D
90% of my training was in a 152 and they're a good little airplane. of course the other 10% of my time was spent in a C-150. Take a 150 for a spin and you'll never complain about a 152 again. guarenteed.
When I went for my 'ride, the examiner was probably around 250, and i was a not-so-slight 200. there's no way we were inside CG limits. we both knew it too. only one that didn't know it was the plane, it performed like a champ. even with my trademark "top-gun" landings. :D
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Great read as always Chairboy.. Makes me wish I hadn't bought my race car. :rolleyes: But at least it still fun!
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had 1 flight with the cg out of limit on the 152, wont ever do that again and usually avoid the hunk o'junk 152s as much as possible.
Hot and humid and at max weight, unfun.
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Nevermind, I did the math. Doesn't seem too bad now.
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Any F-16 flying CIA agents here?
Cessnas..pffft :p
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
and cryano..are u really in spain...dammit..does anyone knwo anyone in Northen Cali area that will teach aerobatics?
Yep, afraid so...
Best thing you can do is check: http://www.landings.com/_landings/pages/aerobatics.html
and subscribe to the acro mailing list. Most of the members are from the states, so you are bound to find clubs, meetings, and competitions in your area.
Daniel
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Just found what will bring your economy spinning flat to unimaginable depths, Greencloud :)
Northern California Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac38.org/
My condolences :p
Daniel
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Any F-16 flying CIA agents here?
Cessnas..pffft :p
:rofl
...-Gixer
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Thanks guys! Then I won't feel too bad about responding with my flight today.
First, the weight issues is very relevant. I told my instructor about my weight ahead of time, and he planned to have the plane burn off some gas before I got there, so each time, we've flown about a half hour above the VFR minimums from the FAR, eg, two hours of go juice in tanks for an hour of flying. Between the two of this, this starts us out right at the limit, and after a couple minutes flying, we're golden.
Today, I showed up, and I felt good. I had done that other writeup, so I had a chance to organize my thoughts. I practiced my engine out list a couple times on the drive out there, and I was ready and rarin' to go. I preflighted, decided we were a tiny bit low (2.5 and 3 gallons in the tanks, respectively) so I towed the plane over to the pumps and put in 7 gallons.
Paul got in, I started up the plane, and taxied over to the runup without incident. Did everything right, no corrections needed from him, did a graceful pirouette to look for traffic (found a guy before the instructor did, entering on the 45) and taxied over and waited, with the plane pointed so I could watch base and final for runway 33. Instructor asked to see another soft field takeoff, so I reviewed the checklist while waiting for the Cessna 182 to land (he had just dropped off some parachutists) and then, when he was clear of the active, did a nice soft field takeoff.
The soft takeoff he wants me doing is a lot different from what I learned in SoCal. Down there, my instructor had me take off in a stall, fly down into the ground effect, accelerate, then climb out at Vy, cleaning up flaps. Up here, the guy has me take off with the yoke all the way back (like I was taught), but to do a controlled wheelie (letting off pressure as I accelerated to keep the nose steady) and then, as I lift off, I'm just a few seconds away from Vy already, and do my climb out. Also, he had me using full flaps instead of the one notch my premade checklist suggested.
I flew out, and around 1,500 feet, he pulled the throttle and told me I lost my engine. Instantly, I whipped through the sequence he taught me. After establishing best glide and aiming towards a field: Fuel cut-off, on. Mixture, full rich. Adjust throttle, turn on carb heat, check mags (is it both? Yes, good) and verify the primer was in and locked.
"Nope, didn't start" he dead panned. Ah, roger that. I pointed at the radio, "tuning to one two one point five. Mayday, mayday, Cessna niner four niner four golf with engine failure, emergency landing two miles north east of Creswell airport, two souls on board." Inexplicably, I added 'creswell traffic' to the end of my call, because I was so used to it, but the instructor assured me that was fine. I flew a normal approach for my emergency landing, because I know what things are supposed to look like when I do (something my socal instructor taught me but I never bothered to do until now, whooops... Jeff, if you're out there, turns out you were right, it DOES make things easier!). I turned base, then final and lined up with a nice smooth field. Unlike the Valley in SoCal where I got most of my engine failures (simulated), there aren't MILLIONS OF PEOPLE trying to get in the way of my plane, so I have lots of places to land. At a couple hundred feet above the ground, he was satisfied that I had the field made and had me do a go around. I entered the pattern, nailed all my radio calls, saw traffic and dodged accordingly, and everything was peachy.
...right until halfway through my downwind leg when he reaches over and pulls my throttle again. "Whoops! Lost your engine." I tell him I'm skipping the checklist because I've got the field made and make a short approach. I come in nice and orderly, putting in full flaps when I feel a little high, and bring us down for a landing. Nothing to write home about because of the full flaps, no throttle, but it doesn't set off the ELT, so I'm happy.
I throttle up, take off again, and fly the pattern. This time, he tells me he wants to see a nice landing. So I fly a normal pattern. feel a little low at one point, but I correct, and as I'm turning base to final, he asks where we're landing.
"At the end of the second line for the centerline" I tell him, and he approves.
"I get a little nervous when people say 'on the numbers or that first line. It's a small runway." I grease it in right where I wanted, and then take off again. On downwind, I lose my engine again and this time he tells me there's oil all over the window. I make my landing via my side window, and come in a bit hot. I extend past the runway on base, doing a slip, then turn back and slip again as I'm lining up with the runway. I'm announcing my slips ahead of time so he doesn't get nervous by all the cross controlled flying, and he tells me he's totally fine, especially SINCE I'm announcing it. I get my airspeed, altitude, and sink rate all cleaned up a hundred feet above the runway and bring it down nice and smooth. I touch down a couple hundred feet further then usual, so I taxi to the end of the runway instead of taking the turnoff that's halfway down, but it's a fine landing. I turn to Paul.
"So, how are you feeling about my flying?" I ask.
"We're done here." He says I'm not doing anything that makes him nervous, and he's good to sign me off on their plane. He reminds me to stay on those pre-landing checklists and tells me about a friend of his who landed with his primer unlocked (and the attendant roughness of engine) who just about needed a new set of trousers, all because he didn't do his list, and I can imagine how that would be sub-optimal.
My eldest is turning 3 tomorrow, so Saturday is an 'all family day', but I hope to fly again on Sunday. I figure I'll probably do a couple of pattern landings, then maybe fly out to Eugene or some other airport. If my mom (who is visiting for the birthday party) brings my sons to the airport, I'll probably just stay in the pattern for a few spins to show them daddy flying. I want some more time in the plane before I take up one of my sons or other passengers, but there's no reason I can't let them sit in it!
Marcus, my three year old, has been demanding that we go flying all week. He tells me that he wants a 'Big BIG plane' so he can fly up to Seattle to visit his grandmother.
Thatta boy!
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Skip the traumahawk, and pick up a nice RV4 or RV6. HT had the right idea when he got his plane. RV aircraft kick butt. In 10 yrs or so I might buy a quickbuild tail kit and see how it goes.
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My criteria for plane buys are:
1. Cost (to buy, then to operate, then to insure, work on, etc)
2. IFR suitability. I'd like to fly my own ride when I get my instrument training.
3. Physical comfort.
My logic on the Tomahawk is that it's super cheap to buy (an IFR certified one with 1800 left on the engine sold for $18,750 on eBay a couple weeks ago) and cheap to fly (6 gallons per hour, ubiquitous Lycoming). That, plus it apparently has a lot more shoulder room then the C-152, not to mention a few knots faster. I'm definately going to try one out first, but it's a definate blip on my radar.
If I had the money, I'd buy a Cherokee or Arrow instead, and I guess we'll see what happens. It ain't gonna happen this week, that's for sure. Not with my current cash situation.
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Chairboy,
Don't let the guys who think the tomahawk is trash dissuade you. It will do fine for what you want, an inexpensive and reliable time builder. The insurance will be much less than it would be for an experimental for a low time pilot.
The Tomahawk got a bad rep with a spin problem that was fixed with the addition of stall strips on the wing. I got my license in one and stalled it tons of times. Always nice and predictable and MUCH nicer to be in than any C150/152.
As a means to keep it affordable se if you can find an A&P / IA that will let you work on the bird under supervision. You'll learn quite a bit about how the plane works.
Once you get your time then start looking for a nice 4 place or build one.
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sounds like you're having fun chairboy!
I have 30something hours in a 152 and now I'm switching to a Cherokee, so the opposite of you been doing.
I can't imagine how you'd fit in a 152. that thing felt tiny to me, and I'm not as big as you are.
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I didn't so much 'sit in the plane' as I did 'wear it like a suit', and an ill fitting one at that.
I've figured that a Cessna 152 is a great tool for measuring just how much someone loves flying. If you're a big guy who is willing to butter himself up to fit inside, then that means you're committed.
Or perhaps that you should BE committed, I'm not sure which.
Some time in the future, I think I'd like to practice some pushovers. I want to get some zero-g time, anyone got any tips on how to safely do this? I know that my carburated, open bowl engine won't run long without gravity, but how long is 'not long' in this case? Will I stall my engine after a couple seconds?
My expectation would be to get up to a good level cruise, pull back about 10 degrees to establish climb, then push forward gently to establish the arc, begining recovery around 10-15 degrees below the horizon to avoid entering acrobatic flight or exceeding V speeds. I'd guess a planned speed regime would be enter at 80 knots, drop to 60 at the apex, and exit around 80 again, based on the feel I got today.
Is this crazy talk? Or kosher?
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Chairboy,
I used to do that in my Comanche. I started a climb at normal cruise and waited until the airspeed got well within the white arc but before stall. I'd then pull the throttle most of the way out and let the yoke go forward. I got about .5G or less for a nice time then let the bird pull itself out of the dive as speed came up. Nice and easy and since it never went full 0 G the oil stayed flowing and the engine kept running. We did the same thing with a 172 but it took a bit of forward pressure on the yoke and the maneuver didn't last quite as long.
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Commanche is a really really nice plane. Our Aero Club had one for years...1966 I think? Id have to dig...it was really a great plane to fly. And for me, an 18 year old kid at the time stuck flying the C172s all the time, it was a real treat when one of the guys took me up in that.
As to the Tomahawk...go for a ride in one. Asides the spin stuff it earned a rep for, I just didnt like it as much as I did the C172s.
If you go Experimental, the RVs are great. A guy around here is putting the finishing touches on an RV9.
Dont do the BD-5 ;) Been there, done that.
If money wasnt a factor, I'd be all over the Viperjet. (http://www.viper-aircraft.com)
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If you are interested in an RV, Van's is a short X/C (~=70nm) down the Williamette Valley @ UAO...Cirrus is doing some sort of demo at HIO 10am on 4/30 also...you're close to Lancair also (Bend)...Viperjet in Pasco,WA would be a bit of a long ride getting there
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I'm going to be finishing up my dual time in my grandfather's Cessna 140 and Stearman biplane. Haven't ever flown a trike before...almost afraid to. :D
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I didn't so much 'sit in the plane' as I did 'wear it like a suit', and an ill fitting one at that.
I've figured that a Cessna 152 is a great tool for measuring just how much someone loves flying. If you're a big guy who is willing to butter himself up to fit inside, then that means you're committed.
Or perhaps that you should BE committed, I'm not sure which.
Some time in the future, I think I'd like to practice some pushovers. I want to get some zero-g time, anyone got any tips on how to safely do this? I know that my carburated, open bowl engine won't run long without gravity, but how long is 'not long' in this case? Will I stall my engine after a couple seconds?
My expectation would be to get up to a good level cruise, pull back about 10 degrees to establish climb, then push forward gently to establish the arc, begining recovery around 10-15 degrees below the horizon to avoid entering acrobatic flight or exceeding V speeds. I'd guess a planned speed regime would be enter at 80 knots, drop to 60 at the apex, and exit around 80 again, based on the feel I got today.
Is this crazy talk? Or kosher?
IIRC, didn't there used to be an aerobatic version of the 150/152? I can't imagine getiing inside there with two people wearing parachutes, but I guess they used to do it.
re: negative g's. I used to somethin similair to that in a 172 after reading about using "parabolic curves" for astronaut training. I'd dive a little to build up speed, pull up into a climb, and then push the nose down over the top. Anything (and anyone) who wasn't belted in would float up off the seats. It would only last for a few seconds, but it was fun!
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Chairboy,
If you're that close to Van's aircraft, you owe it to yourself to go down and take a test ride. Or find someone who owns one and hop in. The latest versions have larger cockpits, and one of the newest ones is much more stable so it would make a better IFR platform.
The RV-6 is side by side seating and has plenty of room, and since the RV-7 has pretty much replaced it, you might be able to find a 6 for less money. The RV-9 is the stable one, and set up to be more suitable for sport flying and is more economical. The RV-10 is a 4 place plane.
The RV-9 is probably a near-perfect "first plane". Using the same engine as a cessna 152, it stalls 1 knot faster but has a 50 knot higher cruise speed. Bump horsepower up to 160, and it'll cruise near 180 mph. It's not quite as responsive as the other RV aircraft so it's probably a great IFR platform. It'll fly fine with any engine between 118 and 160, and they did the development work using 118hp just to ensure that it would be economical, but they also stressed it to handle 160 hp for those who want the climb rate and higher cruise speed. There are trike and tailwheel versions.
I like this quote from the web site:
Is the RV-9/9A a good match, or does one of the other time-tested RV models fit your needs better? If you’re a hard-core aerobatic type or often need to haul very large dead animals out of remote places, maybe you need something else entirely. But for most of us, the RV-9/9A will do everything we do, and do it at less expense and a higher “fun quotient” than any competing design.
http://www.vansaircraft.com
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I agree completely with eagl....most fun I have ever had was in an rv-4.
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If money wasnt a factor, I'd be all over the Viperjet.
I bet Ru Paul can afford one.
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I've got a couple of friends who are building RVs, and I've been interested in them for a while, but... I can't spend the time building one. I'm looking for a cheap plane I can buy & fly, and the RV-9, while it might be economical to fly, would be anything but cheap to get into, both in terms of money and time.
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There are used RVs on the market. A good one won't be super cheap, but you'll have the backing of a relatively huge enthusiast community and a factory that is still manufacturing parts and is probably willing to assist with mods if you need to change anything.
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Stupid question, but why are civil planes so slow and underpowered?
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Speed and power are expensive. Well, actually it's RELIABLE speed and power are expensive. Any moron can put a car engine in a light plane and get some speed out of it, but chances are they won't live long. Think of any 200 cars of the same model and year. Now imagine if every time those 200 cars were run, they cruised at 65-85% of full throttle everywhere they went. How many cars would still be running after a year, without a single major malfunction?
Heck, how many cars get returned to a dealer after just a month or two with major mechanical problems, even with normal driving patterns?
With aircraft, the reliability standards are so much higher that it's tough to get the power without having the cost go through the roof. Add on the fact that the entire airframe must be overbuilt to the same reliability standards, and you can see how the weight will just add up.
Plus, drag increases rapidly as speed increases. 200 mph is a benchmark measure for both high performance cars as well as aircraft. Most cheap cars today will run about 125ish at full throttle, so it's not really too suprising to find that a great many lower-end light private aircraft top out between 100 and 130.
Mooney experimented with a porsche engine, specially modified to aircraft reliability standards. The engine was a work of art, quieter and smoother than just about any other aircraft powerplant. It also cost about as much as an entire new plane, so it remained an expensive novelty.
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Nice stories Chairboy, a good read.
I wish to do some of the same things in the future.
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Thanks, eagl.
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Originally posted by moot
Stupid question, but why are civil planes so slow and underpowered?
$
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$ Indeed... while 1 hour (engine time) in a Zlin Z-50L (260HP, single-seater) can be around $150, just a step upwards to the Sukhoi 29 (400 HP, two-seater) means $500/hour.
Of course this has also to do with the M-14PF engine having quite a short TBO (500 hours), but still... powerful/fast airplanes are very expensive.
Daniel
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Originally posted by moot
Stupid question, but why are civil planes so slow and underpowered?
(http://www.stebbens.org/alan/flying/Airplanes/lancair_turbo_large02.jpg)
this one's not bad... 370 kts. Kits start at $100k, but it'll be better than $300k by the time your done fully equipping it.
The certified, fixed gear Lancair models cruise at 180 kts +/- probably about $300 K, ready to fly away from the factory.
(http://www.flycolumbia.com/vim_images/Aircraft/Columbia400/GalleryC400/s_Columbia400ClimbingHigh.jpg)
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Those Lancairs sure look nice. Maybe eventually? A fast cruise sure sounds like fun, especially for cross country. I did a quick calculation, and it looks like a two and a half hour flight from Creswell to Snohomish's Harvey Field, near where my mom lives. The idea of doing that in a third the time, wowzers.
This morning, I took my two sons out to the airport. The ceilings were low, so I just showed them the plane. My one year old didn't notice anything, of course, but my three year old went absolutely nuts. He's been playing with airplane toys that I've bought for him, so I had to stifle a chuckle when he described the Cessna 152 as a 'big BIG plane!'. Sure, compared to the toys he had, well... I guess....
We sat in it together and I found out that the two of us fit just fine. Apparently, the Cessna 152 is a great two passenger airplane. Well, at least as long as one of the passengers is a 32 pound three year old. After I get some more practice, I'll fly him up to Seattle to visit my mom, who he's nuts about. I'll be soliciting tips and studying up on the logistics of flying with a kid as young as him. Also, looks like it'll be time to hit the eBay for a cheap pair of headsets for him to use. Then again, maybe I don't want him crying when I'm talking to Cascade Approach or Seattle Center. I'm reminded of this excerpt from avweb's short final:
I took my cousin for a plane ride a few years ago. After an hour, we headed back to DuPage airport. The last 10 minutes of the flight were quiet, with almost no conversation. About six miles out, I keyed the mic and opened my mouth to contact the tower, when all of a sudden my cousin shouts loudly, "HEY, LOOK, THERE'S A NAKED LADY DOWN THERE BY THE SWIMMING POOL!" My mouth was still open and the mic button was still pushed.
Afterwards, we went home. This afternoon, the weather cleared up a lot, so I went back out and asked the operator there if he had any 152s for me to fly. He did, and it was different from the one I checked out in, so I both went flying today AND added another plane to my repetoire.
Today's plane was a 1979 Cessna 152 with a different radio then I saw in N9494 Golf. N4962 Hotel has some weird setup with what look like nixie gauges instead of LEDs for the numbers. After I turned it on, I was trying to figure out a good way to test that the radio was working (uncontrolled airport) when someone else transmitted, and I was able to verify that I was on frequency.
I preflighted, started up, did my runup, and took off without incident. I was on crosswind when someone announced they were entering on the 45, so I transmitted. "Creswell traffic, Cessna four niner six two hotel on crosswind for runway 33, creswell traffic." Immediately afterwards, the previous plane transmitted that he had me in sight and was going to enter the pattern behind me.
I landed just fine, did a touch & go, and took off with a straight out departure.
I climbed up to about 1,500 AGL and zipped over to see if I could find my house. I was amazed to find it instantly because of some distinct fields and buildings nearby. I circled a couple times, taking pictures, then flew over to my parents house and did the same.
Photographing their house was a lot more challenging, both because it's in deep forest and hard to find, there's some tall television towers nearby that I need to steer around, and also because, well... those trees really mask it from sight, so even when I'm looking straight at it, it's just a point in the trees next to a nice pond. I snapped some more pics, then flew back to Creswell.
I entered on the 45, turned base and found myself a little high. I came in a little hot, but just added a couple hundred feet to my touchdown point, nothing extreme. My intention was to do a touch and go, one more pattern, then land, but when I jammed the throttle back in, the engine sputtered once. I automatically aborted the takeoff and exited the active without incident. That emergency training really works, even if my 'trigger pull is so light'. I'm sure it would have powered up fine after a second, but I was a little further down the runway then I wanted, and I'm a jumpy low time pilot.
I verified, when doing my post landing checklist, that the carb heat was on, fuel was good, mixture was fine, etc, so I don't know where the sputter came from, but it taxied fine.
.7 hours only cost $42, amazing! It's kinda hard to rationalize owning my own plane on a money basis... but I'm still thinking about it.
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Hey chair...throw me an email (CFIgeorge@aol.com) I lost my address book when I upgraded to XP and I wanna yap at you about Hobby!
George/Golfer
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I now a C-150 that will do that if the throttle is pushed in too fast. I learned it in power off stall recovery training, but maybe finding out at 30kts with 1000' of runway in front of you would be just as memorable
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Rented aircraft are more prone to mechanical failures. A pilot was killed at my local airport after the control pin on the elevator broke in flight and he crashed.
Do you really want to trust your life to a plane that every tom dick and harry has thrashed around the sky?
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Good point... of course, the other side of that is that a plane that is flown often has a better chance of reaching TBO, and stays in better shape by mere virtue of being used, right? I've been reading books and posts on the subject, and one constant theme seems to be that planes thrive on use, and the ones that sit unflown are the ones that degrade the fastest.
I still want a plane, of course.
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When I was learning to fly in 150s and 152s, the club I rented from had a 152 that was notorious for fouling the plugs. The plugs had to be pulled every 10 or so hours to be cleaned and gapped, and that number went down even further if the pilot didn't aggressively lean the mixture at cruise even when at relatively low altitudes. One student on a cross country got stuck out in that plane when he couldn't get a good mag check due to engine roughness caused by fouled plugs. After that, I was always careful to always keep fiddling with the mixture. The planes I was flying didn't have an EGT so it was all by ear and feel. Funny thing, I never had problems with plug fouling or engine roughness except for a mild case of carb ice when the carb heat cable broke on a humid San Diego day.
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Leaning is good. But you have to be careful to avoid engine damage. Running 50 degrees rich of peak on the EGT is actually the worst temp you can select as that gives you the highest cylinder head temps. Never run your engine with a cylinderhead temp more than 375 for an extended period of time.
I bought a JPI engine monitor for my 182 and on my recent flight to Florida I was leaning very aggresively. It is called running lean of peak as you pull the mixture back so far the EGT's actually start to go down again.
What I found was that I would pull the mixture back until the engine started to run rough then give it a bit more fuel. The cylinder head temps were all 340 or less. I have a carburated engine and I found a bit of carb heat got the cylinderhead temps all very uniform. I had one cylinder that always ran a bit cold for some reason.
EGT was 1550 and I was running 20 inches of manifold. With this setting I was getting 11.5 gallons per hour. Not bad for a big 6 cylinder engine.
World of caution. If you lean aggressively like this never do it in a climb or when running full throttle or if you cannot monitor cylinder head temps. It is possible to burn holes in your cylinders if you get the wrong setting at full power.
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The technique I was taught was to slowly pull the mixture until RPMs dropped, then push it back in until the engine smooths out and rpm goes back to normal, then in just a tiny bit more. And yes, both throttle and mixture full fwd to climb, and mixture in for descents too, otherwise you risk forgetting to change the mixture and the motor might up and quit when you throttle up to level off or go around on an approach. Tha's wha we call "bad", m-kay...
Carb heat on descents too. And after my one carb heat incident, I began checking it not only during the pre-flight runup, but also before descents. If it checked bad inflight before a descent, I knew to keep the power up a bit and just S-turn if I needed to keep speed under control or descent quicker. Flopping around and flying at the top of the yellow arc is usually better than losing an engine to carb ice :)
Metallic crystalization was also a big topic back then, so all the fast piston planes were getting speedbrakes installed so you could make faster descents without chopping the throttle to idle. It was reported that if you made an idle descent, the extra hot-cold-hot heat cycle would increase metal crystallization leading to premature engine wear or failure. With speedbrakes, you could leave the power up enough to keep the engine warm as you descended. I never flew planes that were fast enough for it to matter, but being a kid I just pretended it was important and I always made my enroute descents at 50% throttle and somewhere between maneuvering speed and Vne. If it got bumpy, I'd slow down a bit but darned if I was gonna shock cool that 152 engine!
Most of the other club renters just tooled around at full throttle and chopped to idle for the quickest descents from cruise altitude because the owners charged according to hobbes time, not tach time. I'm sure that was real good for the engine and plane, but most guys didn't care. Like when I aileron-rolled a club 172 and killed the attitude gyro (oops). I think it recovered after fully spinning down, but it wouldn't re-cage after an hour long lunch and another 1.2 hour flight back home. I never found out because I skipped town and haven't been back. I still feel bad about that, but at the time that gyro cost more than my car and even if I'd fessed up I couldn't have paid for it. They never came after me or my Dad even though they knew who rented it that day, so I think it was ok.
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Whats it like to aileron roll a 172?
I would never roll my Cessna but wondered what it would do if it was upset in a thunder cloud or something like that.
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I ruined a perfectly good attitude indicator just recently. My buddy and I were to test fly one of the traffic airplanes (I just tagged along to give a little 'dual' and keep fattening that logbook) and it wound up into a spin training lesson.
I'd been playing with an idea in my head about how to get a spin started in a 172 that I'd "accidently" discovered while learning some basic aerobatics in a 152 Aerobat. I pitched into a nose down attitude to bump up the airspeed, pitched up to around 30º and just as the airplane was approaching stall I went full left rudder, aileron and gave a tug of elevator to load up the wings. The low wing stalled, the high one kept flying and the next thing ya know we're inverted roughly 60º nose down with the engine spinning 2400rpm. (the nose was DOWN there baby!) I kept the spin inputs in and it went right into a spin from that attitude and let it go for three turns, came back on the power and recovered. 172 Spin recovery is simply opposite rudder. When we came out of it, he looked at me and asked if we were upside down...I replied to the affirmative and he was all grins. Just after being cleared to land while on a 2 mile base, I noticed that the attitude indicator wasn't indicating what was really going on. If we were in a 30º left turn it would have been right on, eh...oh well. After a discussion that consisted of "it happened in flight...right?" we landed and put it in the squawk book.
Oopsie!
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The big trick in aileron rolling a 172 is that you really need to pay attention to the speed and engine rpm because as you roll over, the nose will drop. It doesn't just drop, it plummets. I started between 20 and 30 degrees nose high, and with full aileron and 1/4 rudder deflection, we still finished the roll about 35 deg nose low.
I started with about 120 mph, used 1.5 G's in the pull up, about .8 G's during the roll to slow the nose drop while inverted, and pulled 2.5-3 G's pulling back up. I came close to overspeeding the engine because I hadn't cut the throttle as the nose dropped, but I managed to keep it a couple hundred or so rpm below redline. We never exceeded maneuvering speed too.
In short, it rolled like a pig but it can be done. Again, the trick is to start out nose-high enough that you sort of make this big ballistic arc as it slowly rolls around, and watch the rpm and speed in the second half of the roll when the nose falls below the horizon. I'm sure you could prevent the nose from falling as much by using various rudder and elevator inputs to help keep the nose up a bit, but that would be very uncomfortable and you'd risk screwing it up bad and overspeeding something.
I've done it once and don't feel the need to do it again. It wasn't all that exciting but my Dad had never done one and I'd just finished UPT, and there we were at 6500ish ft over the acro practice area near Ramona, so...
edit - I forgot to mention that although I'm not an expert on the FARs and AIMs, it may have been illegal to roll that sucker. The nice thing about the aviation regulations is that you can pretty much do anything you want as long as you only kill yourself, so if you fly acro in a private aircraft, you're really just transitioning to the "utility" rules which are sometimes (used to be?) just the normal rules without as much margin for safety. But I really don't remember if we were legal at the time. We were in uncontrolled airspace and in an area commonly used for acro practice, but I don't remember the restrictions on using that plane in the utility category. I don't think chute wear was an issue. I've had 3 acro flights in private/civilian aircraft and never wore a chute. 2 of those flights were in privately owned homebuilt biplanes though, so again I'm not sure what rules we were operating under.
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Performing pseudo-aerobatics in utility aircraft is just asking for trouble, just my opinion...
If you want to fly aerobatic, do it properly, and always wear a chute.
Daniel
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Originally posted by CyranoAH
Performing pseudo-aerobatics in utility aircraft is just asking for trouble, just my opinion...
If you want to fly aerobatic, do it properly, and always wear a chute.
Daniel
Got to agree with that statement. If it isn't rated for aerobatics don't do them.
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The POH will tell you what manuvers are safe...My 172n POH says in the utility category Chandelles, Lazy 8s, Steep turns, spins & stalls are all OK & it gives some restrictions on the performance of them
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I wonder if HT wears a chute :)
As for asking for trouble, I try to take the Bob Hoover approach... Don't try anything you're not capable of pulling off, and leave a margin for error until you're SURE you got it right. So far it's worked for me.
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Originally posted by eagl
I wonder if HT wears a chute :)
As for asking for trouble, I try to take the Bob Hoover approach... Don't try anything you're not capable of pulling off, and leave a margin for error until you're SURE you got it right. So far it's worked for me.
That's quite ok, but that means you are completely sure about what you can pull off and what the plane can pull off... and that's some assuming...
I was talking to Vytautas Lapenas, the Lithuanian who trains the spanish aerobatic team, and asked him about a particular stunt that I saw: two consecutive cobras after take-off.
He said most unlimited aerobatic planes could pull it off, but asked me "unless you earn your living from airshows, why risk it?". Just a slight engine problem means you're done...
Even when you know you can do it, and you are pretty sure the plane can do it, ask if it's worth it.
FWIW, when we train, we only leave a 10-second margin in which we are sold, and that is right after take off. After those 10 seconds, we are flying high enough to make an emergency landing at the airfield.
The rest of the flight, we fly in the box, and even the approach after the aerobatics are over is planned so that in case of engine failure, you get plenty of time to make it to the runway. Engine remains at 60-70% until we are lined up with the runway at the right altitude and speed. Then we cut the throttle and slip to the runway. If the engine fails, we land on the runway anyway.
That way, the only accidents that we risk are while ferrying the planes to other airfields for competitions.
I'm pretty sure these procedures are shared by most aerobatic teams around the world.
Daniel
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There's always the unknown risks, no matter how safe you fly. It's all about risk assessment and risk management.
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I was hoping to get enough flying in the Cessna in this week so I could take my three year old up this weekend (he's desperate to fly flying), but I've been called to LA on short notice for business.
Ah well. I've reserved the plane I trained in for a flight on Thursday evening, I think I'll go up with a friend of mine instead. Should be interesting to go back to the Cherokee!
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Originally posted by eagl
There's always the unknown risks, no matter how safe you fly. It's all about risk assessment and risk management.
My point exactly. What I'm saying is that one should always think twice about risking it without the proper equipment.
Daniel