Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oboe on April 23, 2005, 12:08:44 PM
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How many of you guys use no tracers?
Personally, I think an experienced player using the 'no tracers' option may be one of the biggest unfair advantages the can be used against brand new players.
The poor noobs are just bigging to get the feel for the angles and ranges necessary for good probability firing solutions (and evasion of same) while dogfighting, and find themselves stitched to pieces by guys they don't even realize are firing at them. I don't see it helping to get them hooked on the game. If I am getting chewed up, I'd rather see a few tracers go by my cockpit too, so I know he's missing sometimes. With no tracers, it seems like every round is a hit, because you can't detect the misses in any way.
Just seems to me like an option that will turn noobs off to the game, or appear to them as a hack.
Long way of saying I've decided that even though 'no tracers' was really used sometimes in RL, its one of the most lopsided and unfair advantages experts can use against noobs, so I think its bad for the game in general.
Thoughts?
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I wouldn't mind being so unscrupulous as to have tracers on my MGs only.
"Helpless" newbs just need more trigger time, which they'd get if they had the courage and patience like everyone else needs to at first.
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helll no..if you got a guy behind you ..an dhes under 1k...just beleive you r about to get ur azzz shto off unless u start turn'n
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oboe, it wouldn't help even if the vets had tracers on. When they fire, they rarely miss. Even if they miss, and they're on your 6 and you're a n00b, you're dead anyway. And like all of us, you gotta take your lumps as a new guy. I died countless times from guys I didn't even see, but I got through it. Like moot said, just takes time to get use to the game. If they like it, they'll stick around regardless of tracers. Just my opinion:D
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AAAHHHHHHH, Nothing like the sight of tracers filling the sky, at night, from a dozen or so Ostis, protecting a field from incoming nme mission (unless ur the one incoming of course :lol ). AS for air to air, I thought in RL tracers were always used, like every 5th or 10th bullet??
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LTAR, not 100% on this, but I'm pretty sure in some cases tracers were used as a sign of being low on ammo(at least for USA)
And yes I think it was every 5th or 10th round.
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i think every plane had tracers every 5th round for most planes but iv heard that ponys were every 10th round would love to see the colord tracers. german cannons used i think it was blue and ruskys green and US i think was eather yellow or red but eather way would love to see pretty colors fly by me before i go poof:aok
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I'd have to find it again in my books but some squadrons had tracers removed from their aircraft.
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There should be no game concessions put in place to allow for lapses of situational awareness. Newbies should learn that any enemy aircraft pointing their nose at them is a threat, not just the ones with the pretty lines coming out of them.
SA rules the skies. Newbies need to learn this first and foremost.
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True Cobra - I just read in Caidin's P-38 book that Tommy Lynch ordered his squadron to not use tracers in their ammo load. Thats what got me curious and I started trying it myself.
I've run into a few others who don't use them; always hated dealing with them myself. Then I started thinking about it from noobs point of view, and can see how it might be discouraging or confusing for them.
SuperDud - even the best vet probably has gunnery accuracy less than 30%; I think that means even with an expert gunner behind you, you are gonna see quite a few of his tracers fly by your cockpit.
Take a current 18-25 yr old, who's only experience with WWII air combat is the recent movies he's seen (Pearl Harbor, Hart's War, etc). When he's in the air in AH with an enemy plane behind him and sees tracers flying by his cockpit and hears strikes and feels his plane come apart, it may remind him alot of the combat scenes in the movies. But if he's flying along with an enemy plane behind him, and suddenly his plane explodes and he sees someone awarded the kill, mightn't that seem more like a hack to him?
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Oboe it may seem like a hack but that's where the veteran players should correct them. You can't take what you see in a movie and think it is the norm or the only way things happen.
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True, and vice versa.
I'll never forget seeing some poor noob bail out of his damaged plane over a CV fleet. Well, of course the entire fleet ack opened up on him as he drifted down in his parachute (never would happen in RL).
He got real hot and laid out some nasty names on the open channel about people shooting chutes. I tried to explain to him the fleet ack was just AI but I think he had already logged off in a huff.
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There should be an automatic 5lbs ACM manual made to materialize a few feet above newbs heads the first time their SA gets them killed. The front cover would read:
ACM and SA: What you don't see will kill you.
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I don't see how the no-tracer option gives an advantage to any one group of players, considering that everyone has that option.
New players who try to aim by using the tracers to correct their aim are only handicapping themselves and wasting lots of ammunition.
J_A_B
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Gatr... Does not use tracers....
You need to be so close in this version of this game they r a waste of time turning on....
Chhomp...
ERRPPP!!!!
Man I love this game
Gatr
81st rules.....
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I stopped using them because all of the new smoke effects made it so that I couldn't see if I was getting hits. It hasn't improved my gunnery...but, at least I can see when I get a hit. :)
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I only have tracers on when I forget I had em on in the TA and didn't reset em to "off".
As far as noob's are concerned....most vets shoot at ranges from 200-300 yds. Tracers on or off won't make much difference. If they fire beyond those ranges its to get a noob to turn so they can close and shoot him down at 200-300 yds. Again tracers on or off at those distances matter little because the vets plans a ping or two to get him to turn. If the guy sees the tracers and breaks he did what the vet wanted him to do. If the guy takes a ping without tracers the vet gets the same effect.
IMHO, they're fine as is.
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I'm with NB. Tried to put them on awhile for 'emmersion' but quickly realised I could see squat.
Bottom line, all those of us who don't use them (which is 50% or more) will stay that way until:
(a) they are reduced by about 1/2
(b) HT removes the "no tracers" button. ;)
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any rookie who hasnt worked out how to get to the stall limiter and other options deserves to get shot down constantly, eventually being turned away from the game if they don't learn to wise up and improve their game.
i use tracers, they look better in films and dont stop me shooting well. i dont care if someone knows im shooting at them because hopefully they will be dead in a matter of seconds anyhow.
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Mechanic has a point. His "lets get rid of all noob's that are having a hard time" has merit.
Pity that he doesn't realize when enough leave from that type of attitude he'll end up playing with himself.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Mechanic has a point. His "lets get rid of all noob's that are having a hard time" has merit.
Pity that he doesn't realize when enough leave from that type of attitude he'll end up playing with himself.
Ren I think he was playing with himself long before AH came into his life:)
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yeah but i dont let AH get in the way even now, i still make time for it.
Ren, i know we could start a huge thread about some crap but i cant be bothered.
my opinion simply states that this game has got a certain level of common sense as a required trait.
there are plenty of games that require no patience or interest and they will make a certain tye of player happier.
one can't expect everybody to subscribe after their two weeks.
simply, the argument that no tracers is unfair to noobs is not one i agree with. and i am a tracer user.
bat
*refrains from putting wry flame final comment*
:D
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LOL. Actually you said;
"any rookie who hasnt worked out how to get to the stall limiter and other options deserves to get shot down constantly, eventually being turned away from the game if they don't learn to wise up and improve their game. "
Wouldn't have been so much nicer had you just typed;
"i use tracers, they look better in films and dont stop me shooting well. i dont care if someone knows im shooting at them because hopefully they will be dead in a matter of seconds anyhow."
All by it's lil ole self?
That is why I responded. Most of the other folks responded to thread with an answer to the question that the dude asked. Is it so hard for you to do the same? Or, as Silat says you do play with yourself alot but apparantly not enough to leave your wise remarks at home. :D
Or did I miss something here?
Ren
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Damn ren you ARE a glutton for punishment aren't you?
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who the hell are you to tell me when to say my opinion.
thats not a question.
enough.
enjoy your crusade, its going really well.
edit: and dont put words in my mouth..
ie: "lets get rid of all noob's that are having a hard time"
thats what women do, drives me nuts.
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Me? I'm just another player who answers peoples questions.
You? I know what you are. Just like your opinion I can say whatever I want about your opinion, right? So, that's who I am.
For the noob's, I just want to make sure they understand the game doesn't totally consist of dudes like you and they can actually get help when they ask for it.
They really need to know there is only a small minority of vocal dudes who just gotta mouth off at every question asked or statement made. :aok
Ren
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ME:
any rookie who hasnt worked out how to get to the stall limiter and other options deserves to get shot down constantly, eventually being turned away from the game if they don't learn to wise up and improve their game.
i use tracers, they look better in films and dont stop me shooting well. i dont care if someone knows im shooting at them because hopefully they will be dead in a matter of seconds anyhow.
Ren:
Mechanic has a point. His "lets get rid of all noob's that are having a hard time" has merit.
Pity that he doesn't realize when enough leave from that type of attitude he'll end up playing with himself.
Me:
Ren, i know we could start a huge thread about some crap but i cant be bothered.
my opinion simply states that this game has got a certain level of common sense as a required trait.
there are plenty of games that require no patience or interest and they will make a certain tye of player happier.
one can't expect everybody to subscribe after their two weeks.
simply, the argument that no tracers is unfair to noobs is not one i agree with. and i am a tracer user.
bat
*refrains from putting wry flame final comment*
Ren
LOL. Actually you said;
"any rookie who hasnt worked out how to get to the stall limiter and other options deserves to get shot down constantly, eventually being turned away from the game if they don't learn to wise up and improve their game. "
Wouldn't have been so much nicer had you just typed;
"i use tracers, they look better in films and dont stop me shooting well. i dont care if someone knows im shooting at them because hopefully they will be dead in a matter of seconds anyhow."
All by it's lil ole self?
That is why I responded. Most of the other folks responded to thread with an answer to the question that the dude asked. Is it so hard for you to do the same? Or, as Silat says you do play with yourself alot but apparantly not enough to leave your wise remarks at home.
Or did I miss something here?
Ren
me:
who the hell are you to tell me when to say my opinion.
thats not a question.
enough. enjoy your crusade, its going really well.
edit: and dont put words in my mouth..
ie: "lets get rid of all noob's that are having a hard time"
thats what women do, drives me nuts.
Ren
Me? I'm just another player who answers peoples questions.
You? I know what you are. Just like your opinion I can say whatever I want about your opinion, right? So, that's who I am.
For the noob's, I just want to make sure they understand the game doesn't totally consist of dudes like you and they can actually get help when they ask for it.
They really need to know there is only a small minority of vocal dudes who just gotta mouth off at every question asked or statement made.
Ren
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wowwe! thats some crazy stuff going on there.
ok, so the only thing i misjudged was my energy to argue with you.
sorry about that.
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but look, seriously, before we jump to more concusions.
read it again, you're going mad at me for no reason.
im not even in the BKs squad, leave me alone.
you dont have a clue 'what' i am
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Originally posted by mechanic
snip
one can't expect everybody to subscribe after their two weeks.
simply, the argument that no tracers is unfair to noobs is not one i agree with. and i am a tracer user.
I agree that we shouldn't dumb the game down to help noobs, so I agree about tracers.
That said, I also know for a fact that new player retention is greatly enhanced by the simple act of experienced players taking time to help noobs get started by being available to and patient enough to answer their questions, so I also agree with what Ren is saying.
culero
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Awwwww.
Is the little boy getting all upset at Ren for telling him he's acting like a spoiled baby.
You posted you're not a BK. What does it have to do with them? I'm talking only about your post.
Like you having a opinion....
IMHO if you have nothing to add to a noob's question other than berate him it's better to go pick on other people who don't care what you have to say. Leave your wise at home.
Noob's listen to everything anyone, who's been here longer than they have, says.
Ren
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Hey!What about no bullets!!!! :rofl
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when did I ever say i didnt spend time to help people?
i have helped anyone who needed it, and been helped by many others.
Ren, you study me from a perspective quite jaded , and i fear i have nea a hope to redeam myself in your eyes. sod off.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Awwwww.
Is the little boy getting all upset at Ren........blah blah
Noob's listen to everything anyone, who's been here longer than they have, says.
Ren
sweet.
ok all you guys, you must listen to me, i've been here longer than you so listen up!
Ren, is a nice guy but has this morale crusade to attack anyone who doesnt treat you like school girls learning net ball.
he will teach you alot of things but he wont make you a combat pilot. you must earn your wings alone, in the field of conflict.
its hard but you'll get it when you really want it enough. and then you will start learning from the bottom of a very tall ladder.
have fun and dont HO.
bat
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Naw, no bullets. :) It's just the typical wise remarks that dudes just gotta say that, in their small minds, they think they look tough and kewl. They don't understand to most people they're showing they don't about anything but themselves. What's the real pity is they actually think we care.
But....when they start telling noob's they aint smart enough to make it and probably wont be around much longer then just what are they doing to enhance the game? And I'll be Damned if i don't make sure the noob understands that type is in the minority and not worth listening to and they can actually get help from most of the people who fly here.
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Ren
The Damned
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your accusations flow like a stream from a high mountain....fast and flurried, many directions at once, yet powerless. nothing more than a dribble.
and i have yet to accuse you of one thing but your crusade on this board. a crusade i have inadvertantly become a target for.
you have no knoledge of how my life has been written, no matter how long or short. cast your aspersions elsewhere.
i too was once like you with my assumptions and arguments, but i have tried to stop making them on personal matters in recent years as they only make one person look a fool.
i still slip up sometimes, but i have not today
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I'll be Damned
You are and you should start acting like it. The Damned have always been respected by me and others since way back in AW4W.
You are single handedly changing that perception in a short period of time. I only hope Lugs or one of the old guys gets you voted out before you drag the whole squad down.
Lawyer.... :lol While I'm not a big fan of lawyers, you wouldn't make a good pimple on a real lawyers butt.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
. It's just the typical wise remarks that dudes just gotta say that, in their small minds, they think they look tough and kewl. They don't understand to most people they're showing they don't about anything but themselves. What's the real pity is they actually think we care. >
Unlike most...I AM tough and kewl:p
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he is, i saw his weiner in the shower, it was big sausage dud!
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A noob with a veteran on his six has much bigger problems than anything involving tracers...
Plus one of the first things a noob should learn is that it isnt tracers that tell whether the enemy can hit you or not at any given time - the real issue is if the enemy has brought his nose up high enough to get a lead firing angle on your plane.
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I think learning to fly with tracers has not helped me with gunnery. Turning them off is a better way to learn what sight picture corresponds to a guns solution. Maybe tracers help if you have never flown a WW2 fighter simulation before.
I have gone between no tracers and tracers and firmly believe that no tracers is a better option. Why?
1. You can see when your bullets hit.
2. You focus on where your plane is relative to the nme's and what the correct sight picture looks like and how much to lead.
3. There is not a 'garden hose' instinct to drag the tracers over the target.
4. You tend to use less ammo because bursts are fired rather than the effect in #3.
5. I think there is less system lag (not net lag, but lag on your machine related to FPS).
6. If you run out of bullets (or had none to begin with), the nme can't tell. :D
I expect there are those who have good reasons to turn tracers on. I have yet to hear from any of them.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by mechanic
your accusations flow like a stream from a high mountain....fast and flurried, many directions at once, yet powerless. nothing more than a dribble.
and i have yet to accuse you of one thing but your crusade on this board. a crusade i have inadvertantly become a target for.
you have no knoledge of how my life has been written, no matter how long or short. cast your aspersions elsewhere.
Crusade? It's a crusade to ask you to act like an adult and just answer the question?
Accusations? You made the statements to the noob's. Not I.
You are wrong about my knowledge about you. My knowledge about you grows everytime you type to this thread just as it does about everyone, myself included. Guess what. Everyone bases their opinions one what we say. You, me, everyone who reads and posts in here. Your write your own history everytime you post.
You can lead and help people or you can post wise remarks that only have value to yourself. That's your choice.
My choice is when you pick on noob's, who are just trying to get advice, by telling them they aint gonna make it then I, like you, will voice my opinion.
Ren
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Originally posted by DipStick
You are and you should start acting like it. The Damned have always been respected by me and others since way back in AW4W.
You are single handedly changing that perception in a short period of time. I only hope Lugs or one of the old guys gets you voted out before you drag the whole squad down.
Lawyer.... :lol While I'm not a big fan of lawyers, you wouldn't make a good pimple on a real lawyers butt.
Dip...can I call you Dip? LOL.
You think way to highly of yourself.:rofl
Ren
The Damned
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Originally posted by stantond
I think learning to fly with tracers has not helped me with gunnery. Turning them off is a better way to learn what sight picture corresponds to a guns solution. Maybe tracers help if you have never flown a WW2 fighter simulation before.
Regards,
Malta
With as many players as there are flying there will be those for and against tracers. Some of the older vets like em on, others don't. If you're up flying around Coach take alook at him in his Tiffie, they're always on. For him he "sees" his shot better and gets lotsa kills. :)
Tracers on or off....it might be more helpful for a noob to head over to the training arena and use the targeting feature(lead computer sights). They are normally shocked to find out the they're not pulling anywhere near enough lead in most cases. And, they might find when they think they were dead on they actually needed to aim a lil low or high for muzzle velocities.
I think you can turn it on both offline and online (only in the TA) to turn it on you hit control-tab and green +'s will appear. Those are lead computed sights which shows where you need to be aiming to hit the dude.
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Ren
The Damned
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Ren,
This is a little off topic, but do you know of a way to turn the lead computer sights on in offline mode? I want to practice attacking bombers at different speeds and angles (front, below, above, etc) which is not something the TA is set up for. Not that I can't do this by trial and error, but if there is a tool to make it easier I'll use it.
Regards,
Malta
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I thought there was somthing posted about that a while back. I'll check and get back to you.
A secret about hitting buffs is you fire on them and when you see the rounds hit maintain putting rounds into that one spot and they will go down. Just fire til you see the hits then hold it therer for a couple of seconds. Spraying won't cut it.
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I would think the rather steep learning curve would turn away the new player more than being shot down by a vet flying without tracers.
I personally don't fly with tracers for two reasons. 1) in the never ending quest to improve my crappy gunnery skills 2) Because of my crappy gunnery skills, I don't want to startle the other guy with my tracers before I get a chance to blow his wings off.
ack-ack
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Roger that Ren,
Yep, I aim for the wing tips and that will take them out of the air. Won't always give me the kill, depending on who else is around but that's not what I am worried about. Currently I can effectively hit only from the 5, 6, or 7 o'clock positions which makes me very vulnerable when attacking. Occasionally I can remove a wing tip from below but I consider that luck at this point.
Any information is appreciated.
Regards,
Malta
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im just to lazy to turn em off.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I would think the rather steep learning curve would turn away the new player more than being shot down by a vet flying without tracers.
ack-ack
Hear, Hear!!!!
Learning curve is the hardest part of this game, especially with some pilots having a decade's worth of experience. Tracers are just a small part of the noob's problems, and are NOWHERE near as important as the noob's generally poor SA.
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I personally don't fly with tracers for two reasons. 1) in the never ending quest to improve my crappy gunnery skills 2) Because of my crappy gunnery skills, I don't want to startle the other guy with my tracers before I get a chance to blow his wings off
Interesting -- I flew without for a long time, but since last version I've turned 'em back on again to try to recapture the feel of correct angles. Hasnt helped. Maybe I should turn 'em back off again...
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Originally posted by stantond
Ren,
This is a little off topic, but do you know of a way to turn the lead computer sights on in offline mode? I want to practice attacking bombers at different speeds and angles (front, below, above, etc) which is not something the TA is set up for. Not that I can't do this by trial and error, but if there is a tool to make it easier I'll use it.
Regards,
Malta
There is a way to do it, "cuz I have it mapped to a switch on my joystick, but for the life of me I can't remember what it is. It's got someting to do with going into "arena settings", etc..
If you do a search for it, or "LCG", you should find it on here somewhere. That's where I got the instructions about a year ago....
IMO it does help you to learn to judge lead angles etc. THere is also a version for bombs that you can turn on in the same place to help you learn to dive bomb.
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Ok,
Found what I was looking for:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114552&highlight=lead+computing+gunsite
Turns out I didn't know to 'tab' to the plane intended for the lead computing gunsite when offline. I was expecting a lead computing gunsite that showed the point of impact of the rounds, much like the rockets and bombs training site. That's what confused me.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by Simaril
Interesting -- I flew without for a long time, but since last version I've turned 'em back on again to try to recapture the feel of correct angles. Hasnt helped. Maybe I should turn 'em back off again...
In AH1, I had managed to work my gunnery up to the 18-20% hit range after Leviathn and Shane suggested I turn off the tracers to improve my gunnery skills. Not bad considering I was at the 3-4% mark before turning them off. But when AH2 came out, my average dropped back to near the 5% range. So, I turned back on the tracers and with the first flight with them on, I found myself reverting to old habits of using the tracers to lead my target instead of the my gunsight. So I turned them back off and have my hit % has steadily creeped up to around the 9-12% range.
I also suggest to any new player that asks me for advice to turn off the tracers so they don't learn the bad habit of leading with their tracers.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by stantond
Roger that Ren,
Yep, I aim for the wing tips and that will take them out of the air. Won't always give me the kill, depending on who else is around but that's not what I am worried about. Currently I can effectively hit only from the 5, 6, or 7 o'clock positions which makes me very vulnerable when attacking. Occasionally I can remove a wing tip from below but I consider that luck at this point.
Any information is appreciated.
Regards,
Malta
It's easy to get ahead of buffs, Just set a good ROC and a reasonable speed and you will end up ahead. Then when you dive in, point yer nose to a point out in front of him. You want to arrive there when he does. Think of it as a form of lead pursuit. You need to be going to that point in space where he will be when you get there. That might have you aiming for a point 1/2 mile ahead of where he is at that moment. Otherwise you end up behind his 3-9 line. As you arrive at that point fire a burst and use yer rudders to keep the hits in the same spot. As you go thru you want to roll to pull ahead and climb away in front again. You'll find your fwd speed/energy will easily let you turn back out in front and climb away for another pass if required. You can repeat it as many times as necessary to get the job done.
IMHO the hardest thing to get done is getting the bullets to hit one spot as you come in. Its the weight (mass) of those bullets hitting that does the damage. Raking the fuelage makes a lot of pretty holes but not much else.:)
Hope this helps.
Opps, edited to say if ya want a target to practice on let me know and we can meet in the TA.
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I used to use tracers, but turned them off after a while. Seems I had more luck, plus it was fun in an ostie to peg em out of the sky from under a tree.