Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Naytch on April 24, 2005, 10:46:36 AM
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Well I usually fly ponies so my only option is to run when I see a zeke on my six. No matter what I try there seems to be no way to reverse because the zeke can always turn enuf to get it's guns on me which forces me to run sumore.
I dont have anything against running I just would like to know if there are any tips on how I can get the kill on that slippery zeke instead of ditching the fight because of it.
Any help appreaciated :)
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Just rope him if you know what that is? Use the P51s speed to, instead of running, go straight up. If the zero follows, your extra speed should keep you out of his range while he stalls out below you. When you see this, just nose down and shoot him. I'm making this sound easier than it is, it'll take practice getting the timing down. Just keep at it and if you get in trouble, nose down and run like you've been. You can even fly away a bit and get some alt, come back and try again. Just never get slow around the zero and regardless of how you fight it, you should be safe.
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You're not giving yourself enough turning room. The zeke is very slow compared to the pony. Go out 1500-200 yds and reverse by rolling 120 degrees and pulling back in. The 120 gets you nice and nose low without burying your nose too deeply yet really gets your speed up. You also want him to get his nose as low as you can get it. Nose strait down sure is nice. :)
At the merge just go strait up. Pull almost vertical and let go of the stick completely (unload all pressure on the stick). He will not be able to follow you. Now your on top and can roll in on him as he slows.
Do you know what a 3-9 line is? If not spend some time in the TA with the trainers. They will make your learning curve not quite as steep.
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One other thing ... keep the Zeke fast if you can. They can't roll for crap when fast. If they are fast ... you have the advantage ... if they are slow and you are slow ... advantage Zeke.
Take a Zeke up ... get up to the same speed as one would feel comfortable in a Pony and then try to turn hard ... you will then see what I am talking about. Now, apply that to when you are in a Pony and use it to your advantage.
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finaly, land any hits you can on him obviously, but if you have the option, aim right for the wing root and cockpit, if you dont kill his pilot, you take the wing off or set a fuel tank ablaze.
you can easily bust a zeke in a pony from 600 yrds.
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Superdud, I've tried roping many times before and he always seems to close to 400-600 when I pull up and get a good shot off before he stalls. Ren I'll try that next time, thanks. Now about the 3-9 it is a...you see...uhhh. See you in the TA :)
Thanks to all
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Naytch:
We'll arrange a time with you in the squad to work out in a P-51 vs. Zero setup :)!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Naytch
Superdud, I've tried roping many times before and he always seems to close to 400-600 when I pull up and get a good shot off before he stalls. Ren I'll try that next time, thanks. Now about the 3-9 it is a...you see...uhhh. See you in the TA :)
Thanks to all
Hehe, it sounds like yer in a squad. Most squads are pretty good about helping their new folks out.
The trainers are also always available if you want individualized instruction.
The above quote talks about E state. E states is fairly easy to manage but it takes knowing about the differences in planes which is part of tactics and SA. You need to know the cruise speed of all the planes. What that does is provides you with a good starting point when you run into some dude in say a spit 9. If you know for a fact that his cruise speed is 295 in level flight then you know if he's been coming at your from a distance he shud be near that speed. If he dips his nose then you know he's gonna easily be over 300. A pony cruising at 350 in level flight doesn't need a lot of nose low to get to 400. After a while it gets easier to judge E state. Once you have a good idea of his E state and youve been cruising also (I'd hope:)) You will be able to automatically formulate a plan of attack without even thinking about it. There are also many tactics you can use to gain the edge over the fight. But, I've degressed enough for this response and I apologize for it.
Hmm 3-9 line. we always talk flying using a clock for views. So that simplifies part of it.
The 3-9 line = from your eyeballs in the seat as you look out to either your right/left wingtip and follow a straight line out into infinity,that is a the line I'm talking about. Anytime you see a plane in front of that line then you are behind it. Anytime you see a plane behind that line they are behind you.
Of course theres one shortfall to that, but it really isn't. If a guy is in front of your 3-9 and coming at you thats still not a bad thing. He see the same thing you do at that point. That you are ahead of his 3-9 line too. So, if you are facing each other it's merely a neutral position until you continue to place him ahead of your 3-9 line at the merge.
Another thing about the 3-9 line. The correct way to look beneath you for enemy planes is to roll your wings and look right or left to look down. Now if you use the 3-9 to confirm you are ahead of or behind some guy then you will always know, without a doubt that you are dropping in behind him. Simple, right?
You'll find if you break things down to their simplest form it's pretty easy to visualize and understand the concepts.
Back to the 3-9 line. You want to always roll, pull and turn your plane to place the other guy ahead of your 3-9 line. To do that you need to get angles.
Hmmm..what's angles? In its simplest form its the turning room you need to come around and get him ahead of your 3-9 line. Nothing more. Simple, right?
There's a ton more info to digest and learn. Also, you have to see it in action not just read about it.
Until you understand how to put the written word into controllable action its just nice reading.
Hope this helps.
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Ohhh thats a 3-9 line... I knew about that, just didn't know what it was called lol THANKS REN :)
Tango looks like it's bootcamp time fer me . Say the word, I'll be there
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Naytch: I've posted a thread on our squad message board on the topic. Check your email for details on access. Thanks!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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If hes fast you can bleed E much better then him and out turn for a second or two while you pull for a position. Just break off as soon as he bleeds enough E to get himself in a blackout turn.
If he gets in close on your 6 cut throttle and, while evading his guns, go verticle. Despite all his great turning you should be able to get a flop-shot on the stall.
-p.
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At the merge just go strait up. Pull almost vertical and let go of the stick completely (unload all pressure on the stick). He will not be able to follow you. Now your on top and can roll in on him as he slows.
Ren,
That worked like a charm......
Killed 2 Zekes in a row doing just that
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I fly the Zeke quite a bit and this is the way I catch quite a few ponies. What is probably happening here, when ya get nailed going vertical is this:
The Zeke is cruising along about 7k. He see you dive on someone down at about 5k.. He starts tailing you.
When you either kill the guy at 5k or miss and go vertical, he's watching. If you go vertical immediately after your dive, that is what zeke pilot wuz prayin for. What happens is, the zeke is pulling in and going vertical with you as you were well into your climb, coming back up to his alt and bleeding the big "E".
That's why when you look back and see a zeke catching you in the vertical it kinda freaks ya out.
So I reckon SA is one thing here and the other is to extend a little more after making a low pass.
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Actually a Zeke is not plane to be trifled against... especially if you're in a contemporary plane, not some planes that fly 40~50 mph faster.
Fighting a Zeke in a plane of the same era, basically takes teamwork... or, if you must do it alone, it takes a lot of alt E to wear the Zeke down.
It's difficult to win against it 1vs1 - let's say, in a A6M2 vs F4F-4 fight.. or a F6F-5 vs A6M5 even... coalt-coE condition, so don't fret too much. Zekes are born to turn. Unless you've got some type of weapon that can neutralize its turning advantage, it does become difficult.
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Originally posted by Naytch
Superdud, I've tried roping many times before and he always seems to close to 400-600 when I pull up and get a good shot off before he stalls. Ren I'll try that next time, thanks. Now about the 3-9 it is a...you see...uhhh. See you in the TA :)
Thanks to all
You are probably climbing too steep. When you go pure vertical, the Zero needs only fly a diagonal course to intercept you. In other words, he doesn't need much more than a 60 degree angle to intercept your path, so he closes rapidly. Understand this concept? The shortest way across a square is diagonally. So don't "square" your rope by going from level to pure vertical.
Look at the simple diagram below. You are well ahead of the Zero, but pull vertical. As you go up, the Zero closes the distance because he is climbing diagonally to your path. Notice that the Zero has halved the distance between you. It's pure geometry. You need more speed to avoid this, or just don't climb in the pure vertical.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/BadRope.jpg)
Zeros have no chance against a P-51 if the Mustang has the edge in E and/or altitude, all they can do is evade and hope you make a major blunder.
My regards,
Widewing
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Zeros have no chance against a P-51 if the Mustang has the edge in E and/or altitude, all they can do is evade and hope you make a major blunder.
It's what I call the "51-Zero Dilemma".
Assuming average level of pilot skills, and both pilots with that same skill level, a P-51 will always DOMINATE the fight, except that final coup-de-grace just never comes out. In the Zero pilot's perspective, he basically has no hopes of turning the odds around, and yet, he finds it not too difficult to dodge and evade the P-51.
Both pilots will be just dancing around, each hoping the other guy makes a mistake, and typically only when the third guy belonging to any of their team intervenes, is when this silly stalemate ends.
Thus, when assuming 'normal' level of pilots, decent but not very skilled, for any of the two to shoot the other guy down, it takes a plane of some comparable characteristics to do so.
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What I do when fighting Zekkes in F6Fs, Jugs and Ponies (dont fly ponies that often but sometimes do) is to always rope em or look for flat turns.
Also I always fight em with an E advantage. If I dont have one I extend and get one.
As always merg low to avoid the head on shot and to get vertical separation. Pull up into a immelman and as you are in the inital climb, the 45 degree climb before you go vertical and nose over, look for what he does.
If he does a flat turn. Immel over him and use your flaps to pull the immel tighter, deploy 1-2 notches. Now you are on his high six. Pick the angle to get a good deflection shot at him, raise the flaps and extend.
When he is about 2.5k away Immel again and come back for another merge.
If he does go high with you in the merge just keep on going in a 45% climb. You have more E and you will outclimb him as you are zoom climbing and he is sustained climbing. Reason to that is that he has to immel over and start a climb after you, he has burned quite a bit of E in that manouver. As he falls off flaps out come around and blast him.
Tex.
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all this tech stuff...just HO him from 1.5k and watch the flaming arrow putt putt away.
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Actually fighting a Zero is not that hard, you watch for the closest rain cloud and fly through it, hoping he will follow.
If he does the paper plane falls apart anyways.
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Yeah, fighting the zero is really hard...I mean, you can't ever tell which end of the runway they will pop up on or maybe they will just roll out fo the hangar. Gets even more difficult on larger fields! Ewww...just makes me cringe to think about it!
:D