Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on April 24, 2005, 05:10:27 PM
-
Another thread got me thinking -- for the vets with amazing hit %, how much comes just from having the skill to get in close?
Obviously both ACM skill (to get the clean, high percentage shot) and the ability to judge deflection quickly are both important. Great pilots rack up kill streaks by getting on target efficiently, and by dispatching them quickly.
But what do you think plays the bigger role?
-
acm gets you the deflection.
-
When you look at Joe Average's gunnery skill as measured by the tool giving visibility of hit percentage it is obvious that the guys who struggle along with 0.5% to 2.00% hit percentage have a massive disadvantage over someone with a 10% plus hit average.
If you can't hit your target...and 90% of people in AH can't all the ACM in the world is not going to get you a kill.
You may be able to avoid being killed on a 1 vs 1 engagement, but what works in the DA does not work in the MA or CT environment.
Inability to engage and disenage at will caused by flying a slower more manouverable plane coupled with an inability to hit a target on the fly as it passes in front of you means that you will be relatively harmless to anyone except other slow aircraft.
If you can shoot and hit out to 600 - 800 yds then flying a fast a/c in a furball - say a tiffie, means you can ignore threats to a large extent and fire short bursts at speed, knowing that when you hit you kill.....and most people around you can't catch you and when they do they can't hit you.
-
What a bunch of BS.
I have horrible gunnery skills, yet am a Great flyer. I'm not lacking in the kills department because of my gunning.
The trick is only taking shots I know I can hit.
-
Originally posted by Shane
acm gets you the deflection.
YUP :)
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
What a bunch of BS.
I have horrible gunnery skills, yet am a Great flyer. I'm not lacking in the kills department because of my gunning.
The trick is only taking shots I know I can hit.
what is your in game ID you fly under?
(never understood posting on the bbs and not including your CPID)
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
What a bunch of BS.
I have horrible gunnery skills, yet am a Great flyer. I'm not lacking in the kills department because of my gunning.
The trick is only taking shots I know I can hit.
For me it is the exact opposite...I have lousy acm skills but decent gunnery. So for me, it is exactly as Schaden says...I stay fast...use short bursts...light em up and move to the next target.
-
I have watched a couple of guys over the shoulder with great deflection shooting. Lazs and Hoolie on an afternoon.
It's an ingrained. I've found it not something I can "learn". It was amazing to watch lighting people up with a wild deflection shots over and over again.
While the setup can be learned the "knowing" the lead just baffels me.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
What a bunch of BS.
I have horrible gunnery skills, yet am a Great flyer. I'm not lacking in the kills department because of my gunning.
The trick is only taking shots I know I can hit.
Lemme guess - Spit 9 driver? And btw you're only "a Great flyer" (snicker) when OTHER people say so, not when you proclaim it yourself...and even then having someone say xxxx is "pretty good" is enough.
-
Like most sims - hitting with reflection is just too simple compared with real life (tm)
deflecion shooting at 200 yards was concidered outstanding skill in real life.
-
Agree with that, I did read that some RAF Sqdns were issued with shotguns to enable them to hunt game birds as it improved their ability in deflection shooting.
-
Alternatively you can just wait until you find an F4U-1 tied in knots on the deck with a spit9, and execute a drive by shooting in your Tempest.
Great for snapshot practice.
;)
But back to topic the longer the fight lasts the more ACM becomes dominant.
Without the ACM you will never get the snapshot opportunity.
Of course if you are into drive by shootings then deflection skill is all you need :D
-
Good gunnery can be taught to "Most" people. Its funny though I have been in the Dueling arena and tried to help people with it and they refuse to believe what I have to say about it.
Then they shake thier head while I nail them with deflection shots.
To be a great stick you have to be able to get into position and hit the shot. Its taken me years to do both.
I have said before and I will say again..... dont judge to much by hit%. This is a stat that is easly manipulated.
ACM and Gunnery both matter. Sometimes good ACM will win me a fight. Other times I will get caught sleeping or out of position or out numberd and good gunnery will save my arse.
Then again some nights I fall out of the sky and cant hit a big red barn. None of it is automatic.
-
Nomak, when are you usually in DA?
I've always been that "limited talent, great effort" kind of athlete, but I've always been "coachable"!!
-
I fly under the name Punishr, and before that Punisher. I use to have my name on my signature, but it got deleted by skuzzy (wasn't offensive at all).
For me it's the most frustrating thing. I can get right on a bandit's six and use up half of my ammo to shoot him down.
Also, I prefer flying the Spit 1, but recently I've only had time to fly during squad nights, so I've had to fly useful planes.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Also, I prefer flying the Spit 1, but recently I've only had time to fly during squad nights, so I've had to fly useful planes.
Try the 109 F-4
You'll respect yourself more in the morning. ;)
-
you guys are way off the mark about punishr
when i used to fly with the NDM i would generaly find him in an F4U1 or c205 at 8k while everyone else vulched.
when will this vindictive BBs assumption-fest end?
:rolleyes:
-
Umm mechanic, exactly where has anybody had a go at punishr in this thread ?
I cant see it, or are you trying to perpetuate your vindictive BBs assumption-fest accusation?
-
Originally posted by Schaden
Lemme guess - Spit 9 driver? And btw you're only "a Great flyer" (snicker) when OTHER people say so, not when you proclaim it yourself...and even then having someone say xxxx is "pretty good" is enough.
i could quote more.
are you blind?
-
Aw, that's just Schaden. If he didn't have sour grapes, he wouldn't have any grapes at all.
-- Todd/Leviathn
-
Well, now that Levi has joined the thread maybe he can tell us how he makes unbelievable snapshots when the con is out of sight, far under his nose. I know you have to anticipate, but he seems to seldom miss. I have watched his films and it is downright scary!
-
Originally posted by Edbert
I know you have to anticipate, but he seems to seldom miss. I have watched his films and it is downright scary!
WHAT??? He does miss???? When :confused:
-
I think you may be too sensitive Mechanic :)
That hardly qualifies as a vindictive BBs assumption-fest, you could stretch it to be a BBS assumption but thats about it.
If it makes you feel any better i was having a mild poke at Schaden in my original post.
So just think of him as a Tempest drive by shooter, who feels superior enough to make derogatory comments on spit9 guys.
There ya go if you rattle that cage enough you may get a bite :)
-
Originally posted by mechanic
i could quote more.
are you blind?
Granted, the "Lemme guess" commit is out of line. I am not slamming Punisher, but the old addage is more often true than not: If you have to tell people something is so, then maybe it isn't. However, by the same token: it ain't braggin if it's true.
If this were a picnic and beer were involved, the next words would be something like: Oh yeah, well watch this....followed by the wail of an ambulance siren.
-
Originally posted by Edbert
Well, now that Levi has joined the thread maybe he can tell us how he makes unbelievable snapshots when the con is out of sight, far under his nose. I know you have to anticipate, but he seems to seldom miss. I have watched his films and it is downright scary!
that brings up a tactical question I've been wondering about. Though I know that there are infinite variables (yada, yada, yada) -- when sustained turning in angles fight, it it better to alternate high and low yo-yo to maintain vision at under nose target (at some energy cost, but hopefully giving snaps with the vertical transitions); or, try to develop the magic judgement that Levi has ? I've typically taken blind shots but...ummmm.....doesnt always work well for me.
-
Originally posted by dedalos
WHAT??? He does miss???? When :confused:
I know of one time, last September I beleive.
-
Thanks mechanic. But if I go out and say something like I did at first, I fully open myself up to bashing.
Also, I've tried the 109F4. I never really liked the 109 series, so the F4 did nothing for me.
-
tracers can help
and always pull the trigger sooner than you think you need to
between lag and poor judgement, most snap/deflections undershoot not overshoot
-
Originally posted by Eagler
between lag and poor judgement, most snap/deflections undershoot not overshoot
I agree 100% Eagler.
I started a routine where every time before I go online, I shoot drones offline for 5-10 minutes. Mostly I fly opposite the directions of the drones and try front 1/4 deflection shots, but not HO's. Usually my wings are in at least a 45deg bank to make the shots. Its a good warmup, and has helped my gunnery immensely. I shoot from all kinds of angles and speeds, and what I noticed is the first few minutes before I get my head "calibrated" I am missing from massively undershooting, or not firing soon enough or pulling enough lead.
Now when I do pull the trigger online, I have already gotten all those "bad" shots out of the way, and though a combination of that, and not firing until I'm REALLY sure I will hit, I'm over 10% hit percent for the first time.
-
Get in close
-
The better the gunery is the less important ACM becomes. Thus, theoretically, gunnery > ACM in real life, as well as the game.
Just anticipate the flightpath and shoot where the guy will arrive, and then you don't even have to 'pursuit' the enemy at all. Everybody has their moments when they pull off a really terrific, blind-lead deflection shot, where you don't maneuver at all, just see the enemy plane coming, aim at a certain void in the air, and then boom! you got him.
The problem is, some people can pull that off relatively easily, while others cannot. Then you have to start the whole 'chasing' sequence of cutting the edges, driving the target into a corner, outmaneuvering him, and etc etc..
Since one cannot just flat-out, deflection shoot the target outta the sky, anytime, he has to chase him around and constantly maintain a certain amount of visual info on the target.
Thus, when gunnery is lacking, or simple gunnery passes fail, then comes the ACM part to make up for the screw-up in initial gunnery attempt.
-
it's not hard to make the other guy screw up his HO or even a bounce... even in a 2 (or sometimes more) v 1
situation.
-
The shooting skills make all the difference.
Two identical incidents for me in the last two days. Up flying my big target 38G.
True to form I got bounced by a 109. I caught sight of that flash of red, and had time to break fast. Same angles, same speeds. First time the guy missed completely.
Second time, BAM! lights out for CorkyJr.
I sure recognized the name of that second 109 driver, and as near as I can tell he sure can shoot.
The other guy was more like me, from the pray and spray group, hoping to hit something before the ammo runs out :)
I can't begin to count the number of times I've had the shot and missed. Getting in position wasn't nearly as hard as putting the bullets on target.
Someday I'll figure it out...then watch out! :)
Dan/CorkyJr
-
Practice offline, it really will help. I was like you, I could get into position and then could not make the killing shot and I decided I was going to do something about it. When I first started shooting the drones offline, I did it for hours. Now I only do it 5-10 minutes, and that is all it takes now to get me back up to speed.
-
Another gunnery percentage tip...
Don't fire from dead-six unless you are point blank. Dead-six is one of the hardest shots there is, get him to turn and pull lead.
-
Originally posted by Edbert
Another gunnery percentage tip...
Don't fire from dead-six unless you are point blank. Dead-six is one of the hardest shots there is, get him to turn and pull lead.
great!! now you just fostered another generation of runners. :mad:
-
Kweassa, I disagree. ACM is more important then gunnery any day.
Unless by bad luck on my part, I won't be touched by blind or not blind deflection shots. If someone can maneuver on my six and I can't shake him, they deserve to shoot me down.
But anyway, I guess I could chalk it up to SA. I know where everyone is, how fast they are going and which direction they are pointed. From this, I can make an educated guess as to where their firing solutions are. It's not hard to stay out of the firing solution of a plane going for a random deflection shot.
-
Originally posted by Shane
great!! now you just fostered another generation of runners. :mad:
As if there were a shortage of them? :confused:
Besides, your ElGay should be able to run them down :D
-
Here is a film with some Decent gunnery in it. Mabye it can help some.
A little ACM in there to ;)
109G6BKStyle (http://www.furballunderground.com/Dave/G6Furballin.ahf)
Right click "save target as"
-
Nomak, I'm impressed. Not because of your gunnery skills, but because of how damn lucky you are.
I think I counted 2 enemies getting solid hits on you. Another 2 were solidly on your tail. Had anyone of them had the brains to only chop throttle 10-15%, you would have eaten it.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Nomak, I'm impressed. Not because of your gunnery skills, but because of how damn lucky you are.
I think I counted 2 enemies getting solid hits on you. Another 2 were solidly on your tail. Had anyone of them had the brains to only chop throttle 10-15%, you would have eaten it.
Well Mr "Im a great flyer"......
A wise man once said "I would rather be lucky than good"
That being said if you think the overshoots in this film were a fluke or luck than you have missed your guess.
The point of the film was for the original poster. It was also to demonstarte that ACM and gunnery go hand in hand. Nothing more.
-
2 Pings dont make 2 "solid hits" for starters.
I always love you guys who come in here boasting about your idea of ACM and critiques of others without suplying your in game cpid for all to see. Seems you've got something to hide right from the start. Ergo your opinions on others are not valid.
Moreover, you have failed to follow Nomak through the points in which he was making in posting the film.
-
if you'd keep up morph, you'd have discovered lasersailor is ummmm... someone... i read it in another thread.... somewhere...
-
The first kill in the film shows nicely how ACM can aid deflection shooting. As soon as the spit flew by nomak knew roughly where the con would be and put his gunsight in position ready to fire when the spit flies through it.
-
Originally posted by Shane
if you'd keep up morph, you'd have discovered lasersailor is ummmm... someone... i read it in another thread.... somewhere...
dam i have to learn to keep better notes.
-
I think able to have good gunnery skills can help when in a fight with someone. Yea when up real close its pretty hard to miss. But when you have to shoot a 70 degree angle or more, its good to have good gunnery because you wouldnt have to end up in a turn fight or get bounced by finishing the enemy plane off.
Im happy about having good gunnery because with practice, I am able to hit enemy planes 800-1000 out with the P38 because I have found how high I need which forces the enemy plane to move and ends up blowing his E so I can finish him off or it damages the plane enough that it takes off a wing or something forcing the plane to go down.
Hoarach
-
2 Pings dont make 2 "solid hits" for starters.
I apologize. 3 near hits and 1 solid hit. It was solid enough to knock parts off.
Almost every single plane Nomak went up against is more maneuverable then the G6. All they had to do was throttle back when dropping in on his six and he would have been toast.
I play as Punishr.
-
I started flying the spit5 into furballs and against YUCCA in the DA to hone my snap shots and ACM. YUCCA won't give me an inch to breath and we all know how furballs are. Ive reached the point where I shoot YUCCA down now and again and even lasted more than 1 minute with Hemp in the DA.
By flying slower and closer I started seeing how bad my gunnery was overall. By being slower I am able to see the target solutions. It's been helping with my P47 gunnery, since in a jug things happen a bit faster. I mapped the zoom key to my hat switch and zoom in slightly now just before gun solution range. Thats been helping to.
-
i fart around shooting tree branches and barns alot..not sure what my gunnery really is like in terms of hit percentage lol..can always get better though. as for dead 6 shots, nose mounted cannons seem to do just fine..Getting in a plane with a good gun platform (corsair) helps to learn, and setting up the shot with a steady hand is key.
-
Im surprised that you said this now after knowing who you are in game.
All nomak was doing was predicting the path of the nme plane and taking his own, shorter "path" to get a good angle for a good shot.
I say "all nomak was doing" as if it is an easy thing. Its not, it takes alot of practice and experience to be able to do it and do it well enough to make it count... As Nomak did. Its also about taking a chance but the odds of his chance taking and reactions to the nme plane are more and more in his favor due to his experience.
There's always a little bit of luck in a fight. You know that as well as I do. Regardless of getting pinged, taking hits or winning, there's some luck in it all.
No one knows for sure where a plane is going to be. But taking a chance and betting on his flight path opens the opportunity up for angles, angles which may or may not allow for a shot. Thats the luck of it.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Nomak, I'm impressed. Not because of your gunnery skills, but because of how damn lucky you are.
I think I counted 2 enemies getting solid hits on you. Another 2 were solidly on your tail. Had anyone of them had the brains to only chop throttle 10-15%, you would have eaten it.
I didnt watch the film, but that's the attitude I like to see ;) Over the past 10 years, Ive probably pulled the same old evasives and table turning maneuvers ad nausium. When I get a response on the open channel about "lucky" this and that, I just smile. They didnt learn a damn thing which means the same old tired tactics will work aginst them next time. Not much luck involved if things happened the way you planned them. When things dont happen the way you plan, and you sucessfully adjust, that's skill.
-
Drex where's your sig at?
That summed up "luck" pretty dam good if you ask me.
-
Here ya go "Great flyer"
"Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet."
-
Luck is when the guy behind the other stick sucks.
-
Shaw comes down pretty clearly on the side of shooting ability. Of particular interest are the quotes on shooting from the WW1 aces like Billy Bishop, functioning in that close range, low wing loaded environment -- they ranked marksmanship as king, acm secondary.
In AH I do believe snapshots are the big momentum swings in fights, either you hit for damage that alters performance, or you miss and sacrifice angles.
Someone once pointed out drex's low hit % and he commented he hits the ones that counts. I always thought that was good stuff because acm aside, especially in bad odds, as those angles close out there are some shots that *must* kill or do damage or you will die.
-
For me, the gunnery was a little more difficult to learn coming from AW into AH. Now I don't hit 15% like some do, but if can stay between 9 - 12% pretty steadily. With my flying the A8 and turning it with anything and everything, I had to get used to snapshots. Cuz sometimes thats all you'll get. Leading kind of fell into place because in AW you could hit control + s or something like that, and it would take the gunsite away. That's how I flew, the site got in the way. But I also think the type of plane you fly also affects the hit %. You get a plane with big slow firing guns compared to a 51 with smaller, faster firing, you'll tend to hit better with the tiffy. At least I do anyway.
-
I love this debate, always have. The key to this debate is rather simple, it's the third factor of time. Obviously, flying skill and gunnery are both extremely important. As some have alluded to having good flying skill without good gunnery means you must manuever into a sure-shot position, this takes time and often an intrinsic turning advantage plane vs. plane (you will notice alot of good sticks with bad gunnery fly Spit5's or Niki's for this very reason). However, if you have good gunnery without good flying skill you can successfully shoot at even terrible angles, this does not require alot of time, much flying ability or a particular dominating aircraft flight characteristic.
In a 1 vs 1 duelling situation you have all the time in the world to work an opponent into a sure-fire position with flying skill alone and enjoy much success. In the typical MA furball environment you do not have that time typically. Spend even a few seconds on a target and you are in dire danger of getting your arse blown off. It is for this reason, in the MA at least, excellent gunnery is of premier importance.
I'm sure many of you have been in the situation where you know you have an opponent out-skilled but he has a major E advantage affording you only the briefest high deflection snap-shots. Eventually in this situation you can work down his E advantage with flying skill, but this will take alot of time, therefore putting you at great risk from his friends. With great gunnery, however, all you need to do is peg him on one of those brief snap-shot opportunities and it's over.
I don't agree that great gunnery can be taught per se. I think to a certain point practice and experience can improve your gunnery but nowhere near the level of great or even good if it was bad to begin with. Some people just have an innate 'feel' for deflection. AW back in 1991 was the first flight sim I had ever played, right from day 1 I had great gunnery and a great sense of deflection with no practice or experience of any kind. My flying ability sucked as you would imagine but I still enjoyed alot of success even when compared to much more experienced players. My flying improved dramatically with experience and practice over time, my gunnery more or less stayed at the same level even after years and years of experience and practice. I'm sure many can relate the same subjective experience. This phenomena was noted in real life as well, some people were just born good shots, no amount of drogue shooting made the terrible shots anywhere near as good as the innately good shots who never had or needed any practice.
So, it's not that gunnery is more important necessarily than flying skill, both are equally important in the big picture. But, in the typical MA environment great gunnery will provide you with greater and more consistant success than flying ability in the relative absence of good gunnery all other factors being equal.
Zazen
-
I'd rather be able to fly well then shoot well. Consitant good flying will wear down your opponents eventually, so you'll still get the kills. But you'll also have options. Good gunnery isn't going to save you from a higher or faster con. It isn't going to clear your 6. All its going to do is let you cherry-pick and punk, which get old fast.
-p.
-
Originally posted by Edbert
Well, now that Levi has joined the thread maybe he can tell us how he makes unbelievable snapshots when the con is out of sight, far under his nose. I know you have to anticipate, but he seems to seldom miss. I have watched his films and it is downright scary!
The trick to Levi is that if you're flying like an Ace when he can see you, do something stupitarded the instant he pulls for a shot.
-
Originally posted by Nomak
Here ya go "Great flyer"
"Luck is when preparation and opportunity meet."
Luck is when good pilots like Nomak find me while they are flying drunk.
-
I'd rather be able to fly well then shoot well. Consitant good flying will wear down your opponents eventually, so you'll still get the kills. But you'll also have options. Good gunnery isn't going to save you from a higher or faster con. It isn't going to clear your 6. All its going to do is let you cherry-pick and punk, which get old fast.
The more you maneuver, the more time you are taking to shoot someone down, which in turn, the more it exposes you to dangers from other aircraft.
Typically, you can expect a spectacular fight against ONE enemy plane and probably shoot him down, and then get cornered by about 3~4 enemies and get shot down.. (and optionally, you can start ranting on ch.200; "LOL gangbangers" or "It only took five of you" stuff :D ).
Even spectacular pilots like Levi can't survive 5 vs 1 odds. One way or another people start to depend less on ACM and more about conditioning the overall situation so they always have a clear chance to shoot, and a clear path to bugger out of harms way when they miss.
Ofcourse, when pure 1vs1 dueling conditions emerge, I'm ready to accept that in such cases ACM might become a lot more important than it really is worth in multiple engagement conditions.
-
i wish i could film and post every sortie of mine in the MA
you'd truly see whewre in the MA (and the MA only) gunnery is most important. i can fly (and i have been told im not a piss-poor pilot) anyway i can fly my brains out, and spend 3/4 of my cannons on a shot on 1 con, all withing 200 yards, but withough a hit or damage to his plane.
but if i can stay, and keep getting D200 or closer shots aren't i doing "good ACM"????
but i lose the fight becaus i fire, and am bingo, and disnegage, only to get killed by someone else or something.
i can't count how many times in the MA i have taken off, flown, got on a pony's 6 in my dora, and fired off ALL my cannon, only to have the pony D200 in front of me, and i have nothing to kill him with.
gunnery is learned somewhat, but it is truly a trait that if you dont "have it" you never will i believe.
-
I have to disagree to a small detail...
Originally posted by Kweassa
Even spectacular pilots like Levi can't survive 5 vs 1 odds.
Even spectacular pilots like Levi can't survive 5 vs 1 odds indefinitely.
Watch this film (it is huge) (http://www.furballunderground.com/Stuck_In_The_Middle.wmv)
-
I killed that link Ed.
It now has a wmv extension but I'm not sure which directory I loaded it in. I will have to check on this.
Sorry
Morph
-
Originally posted by Morpheus
I killed that link Ed.
It now has a wmv extension but I'm not sure which directory I loaded it in. I will have to check on this.
Sorry
Morph
GAH!
It is still listed under your movies category. Let me know if you find it and I'll edit the link.
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
[B
In a 1 vs 1 duelling situation you have all the time in the world to work an opponent into a sure-fire position
Zazen [/B]
When you duel Osty's , do you have a no-fire on merge ? Or do you just go guns live ?
-
Ed here's the
New Link for Levi's Movie. (http://www.furballunderground.com/Stuck_In_The_Middle.wmv)
-
Originally posted by JB73
gunnery is learned somewhat, but it is truly a trait that if you dont "have it" you never will i believe.
I really disagree with this. I think some people have a natural talent for it, sure, but I don't think that people born without that talent must suffer with agonizingly poor aim. It is something you can learn and improve. I know I didn't start out shooting like I do now in Aces High; I had to work at it, practice, and try new things. I got better, but I didn't start better.
Looking back, I see I shot about 6-7% from tours 12 through 15 or so. Something had to happen between then and now to improve my gunnery almost threefold, and it wasn't natural talent.
-- Todd/Leviathn