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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kaz on April 24, 2005, 07:03:42 PM

Title: 109 G14
Post by: Kaz on April 24, 2005, 07:03:42 PM
Anyone know of a general month when squadrons started receiving them?

Thanks in advance!
Title: 109 G14
Post by: agent 009 on April 24, 2005, 08:30:51 PM
April 44 for G-14 AS according to Heinz Knoke
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Wotan on April 24, 2005, 09:58:11 PM
G-14 entered service with II/JG 11 and Stab/JG 53 in July 1944.

Full deployment = August 1944

G-14/AS entered service with II/JG 27 and I/JG 77 in August 1944. (Prien & Rodeike)

5500 G-14s were produced (including around 1000 G-14/AS)
Title: 109 G14
Post by: IK3 on April 24, 2005, 10:55:12 PM
is G-14 simply a re-engined 109G-6?

is it faster than 109G-10?

does it climb faster than 109G-10?
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Kweassa on April 25, 2005, 02:24:58 AM
G-14 was a project for standardizing all the different upgrades that were done to the 'default' G-6s. If you look at a very early G-6, you'll notice that it even looks quite different from the exterior, when compared to the later G-6s.

 So, by 1944, the Luftwaffe had three prime objectives in 109 development;

1) develop a successor to the G series
2) when the new variant is finished, upgrade all existing G models to its standards
3) standardize all new G series production to 1) and 2) standards


1) would be the Kurfurst
2) would be the G-10
3) would be the G-14...

 The problem was, the development for the Bf109K was delayed too much, thus the LW decided to carry on with 3) first.

 Therefore, the G-14 actually arrived first, then the K-4, and the G-10 was the last mass produced 109.


 IIRC, that is.. it was something like that.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Schaden on April 25, 2005, 03:19:08 AM
Proper LW anorak would be able to confirm but I though the G14 was as Kweassa said an interim project that fell between the G6 and K4/G10 - slightly improved peformance over G6 but not as hot as the K4/G10.

er I think.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Charge on April 25, 2005, 03:39:57 AM
I find it confusing that Julius Meimberg stated in his book that they had G14s (AS?) which did not have a self sealing fuel tank and armour was stripped down to minimum to reduce weight??

-C+
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Angus on April 25, 2005, 03:40:30 AM
Hartman's last 109 was a G14, right?
Some cool paintjob he had.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: GScholz on April 25, 2005, 04:22:08 AM
Hartmann's last ride was a K-4.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Schaden on April 25, 2005, 04:33:35 AM
Still think we should ge the proper K4 with the retracting tail wheel and 300 (lbs/kg?) weight loss.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Angus on April 25, 2005, 04:40:38 AM
Ah, was browsing for it, but didn't find.
Would be nice to get a Pic of Hartmann's G-14 with the Tulip paint. That one to AH!!!
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Angus on April 25, 2005, 04:49:56 AM
tried to insert image, but no luck.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Kurfürst on April 25, 2005, 05:23:57 AM
What Wotan said. But so that agent 009 would be right, too ;) , quite a few G-6s and G-5s received AS engines and/or MW injection before the G-14 appeared, so these planes were also equal to the G-14 and G-14/AS in performance, if not in designation. The engine was really the same, DB 605A, but when MW50 was fitted and boost were accordingly increased, it was designation 605 AM or sometimes 605 A/m.

Knoke`s plane he mentions in his diary is, afaik, a G-5/AS with MW injection also built in.

The G-14/AS and G-10 were quite close in performance, the latter was some little as 10 kph faster at altitude at 690kph/7.5km.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Angus on April 25, 2005, 05:51:23 AM
Izzi, do you have a good picture of Hartmann's G6,G14 or K?
The one with the Tulip you know.
If I ever get a go at the graphics, that would be my first ;)
Title: 109 G14
Post by: GScholz on April 25, 2005, 06:49:01 AM
Hartmann's Gustavs & Kurfürst


G-6 '43
(http://users.hol.gr/~erler/luftprof/jg52/bf109g67jg52hartmann-1_1.jpg)

G-6 '44
(http://users.hol.gr/~erler/luftprof/jg52/bf109g69jg52hartmann-1_1.jpg)

G-6 '44
(http://users.hol.gr/~erler/luftprof/jg52/me109g69jg52hartmann-1_1.jpg)

G-10 '44
(http://users.hol.gr/~erler/luftprof/jg52/me109g10ijg52hartmann-1_1.jpg)

K-4 '45
(http://users.hol.gr/~erler/luftprof/jg52/bf109k4ijg52hartmann-1_1.jpg)


Replica of Hartmann's G-14 at the San Diego Aerospace Museum
(http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/museums/showimage.php?id=4471)
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Angus on April 25, 2005, 08:46:12 AM
Very very Nice ;)
I mean, if we want a 109 Skin, Hartmann's or for that sake, GALLAND's is the ultimate ;) Hartmann's Gustav, Gallands Emil?
Ummm, maybe should start a thread about skins....
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Kaz on April 25, 2005, 10:12:22 AM
My thanks to all of you for the info.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Wotan on April 25, 2005, 11:19:21 AM
Quote
The G-14 is mentioned in Mtt meetings minutes as the official name of the G-6/MW50 designation which was used internally by Mtt for the G-6 equipped with the MW-50 system (previously used on the recce G-6/R2 variant).

The G-10 is described as the evolution of the G-6 using MW-50 (same system as G-6/R2) and the DB605DM.

The G-14 used only the following engines:

DB605AM,
DB605ASM

M = MW50

Neither the DB605A nor the DB605AS were mounted on the G-14, since the main difference from G-6 was the presence of MW-50, which required either the DB605AM or the DB605ASM engine.

The DB605AS(M) used the same supercharger as the DB605D, they were rebuilt using DB605A casing and fitted with the DB603A supercharger. They required the same kind of cowling as the DB605D equipped aircraft. Yet there are some small cowling differences between a G-10 and a G-14/AS, so you can identify one from the other.

The difference between the A and AS on one hand and the AM and ASM in the other hand is the addition of MW-50. Of course there were other differences such as sparkplugs, timings and other settings etc.

The G-14 was (as the others) produced by Messerschmitt in Regensburg, Erla Maschinenwerke in Leipzig and WNF (Wiener Neustädter Flugzeugwerke).

The minority was built by WNF. Many G-14s built by WNF had their MG 151/20 replaced by a MK 108, which resulted in the designation G-14/U4.

So the majority built by Messerschmitt and Erla kept their MG 151/20.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: agent 009 on April 26, 2005, 01:10:55 AM
Hartmann said the 109 was faster than Mustang below 15.000 ft in the book "The greatest aces" by edward Sims.

Someone sent me a message that Hartmann actually never got a K, & that his last was a G-10. I believe G-10's got most of the same equipment as the K did. So I've been told. Same bigger oil cooler, same prop, & same taller tail. Upgraded 605 motors as well.

I know, latter 109's are confusing.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: Kurfürst on April 26, 2005, 04:57:56 AM
Indeed, the G-10 had pretty much the same performance as the K. The K was only speedier, by ca. 20-25 kph with it`s aerodynamic refinements.

The main difference between K-4 and G-10 were :

- large wheels are standard on the K-4, with fairings
- long tailwheel is standard on the K-4, and retractable
- tall tail also standard, with Flettner
- K-4 has redesigned, rationalized cocpit
- MK 108 standard
- internal arrangement of subsystems revised on the 109K, ie. master compass, radios, batteries.
- K-4`s MW50 tank can also be used as an extra fuel tank.

Both type had increased electronic capacity (2000W), shared to DB 605 D engine, and the associated wide blade prop (also true for G-6/AS and G-14/AS). Both of them received Flettner tabs for ailerons on occasion.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: MiloMorai on April 26, 2005, 05:34:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kurfürst
Both of them received Flettner tabs for ailerons on occasion.


What? :eek:  Only on occasion now. I know some people who will be happy you finally admit this.
Title: 109 G14
Post by: agent 009 on April 26, 2005, 05:51:31 AM
cockpit panel made of wood in K-4. I read flettners were nailed shut as they caused turbulence with untabbed elevators.


Flettner stuff.
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