Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dowding on September 12, 2001, 11:42:00 AM
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...time to unite against ALL terrorism, in any form?
For years just about every European democracy has had to deal with terrorism in some form. France has Algerian extremists, Spain has the Basque separatists, and Britain has the IRA.
For years the IRA was funded by American supporters who couldn't give a toss about the casualties to innocent life. I hope to god they are sick to their stomachs as they watch the pictures on TV.
This is what terrorism is. This is what it means.
They are as evil, twisted, callous, selfish, self-obsessed and sick as the b'stards who perpetrated this latest crime against humanity. May they rot in hell hand in hand with the people who committed this atrocity.
I wish America every sympathy and I hope you catch and punish those responisble swiftly and with appropiate force.
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Dowding,
With all due respect...
Shut up.
Until the cumulative acts of terrorism in your nation add up to what has occured in a single day here, you really should stop making comparisons.
American Embassies have been bombed. American diplomats have been killed. Americans have been singled out and slain in hijackings. We know what it is about.
Nothing like this has happened to anyone in recent history. Stop comparing it to significantly lesser events.
This was an act of war... not an act of terrorism.
AKDejaVu
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That's what I mean, Deja. Treat it as an act of war - form some kind of multi-national group on this, because it affects us all. Every democracy in the world has been shocked and out-raged by this act. When I see those pictures, I start to feel a bit ill.
And of course, what happened in NY is uncomparable to anything that went before. Terrorism has always been a back-door issue - it can never be again.
To the terrorists around the world, whatever their cause, it has always been a war. They see themselves as soldiers in their own sordid 'struggle'.
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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I totally agree with your second post Dowding.
And I do agree that the world is witness to the true potential of terrorism... and has an idea of what is needed to stop it.
Zero tolerance for any aspect of terrorism. It is no longer a spec on the wall... they got the attention they wanted. Now lets see if they really wanted war.
AKDejaVu
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Well said Dowding, I wholeheartedly agree.
Best wishes to everybody in the USA, hope you find the bastard(s).
Daniel, aka Cyrano
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YOU, I hope we find the bastard and drill their knee caps then soak their feet in salt water for a day then let a goat lick them slowly and with its sandpaper like tongue slowly pull the skin off. Then force them to walk for miles on hot pavement with people lashing them and spitting on them while they carrier a large Gallows for thier hanging. Then pour scalding hot water on their genitals. Then put a cold knife to their genitals and slowly cut their member like a cucumber. Then slowly saw their balls into pieces and force them to eat all of both. Then finnaly you nail a rope to their neck instead of tieing it and drop them from the gallows. I believe thatll be sufficient.
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For the love of whatever you consider good and holy, will you GET A FRICKIN' GRIP EVERYBODY!!!
Vengeance will be served, oh yes it will. But remember - we are the civilized ones here. This type of rhetoric makes my blood churn. THEY are the barbarians - not us. Now prove it.
Originally posted by Hobodog:
YOU, I hope we find the bastard and drill their knee caps then soak their feet in salt water for a day then let a goat lick them slowly and with its sandpaper like tongue slowly pull the skin off. Then force them to walk for miles on hot pavement with people lashing them and spitting on them while they carrier a large Gallows for thier hanging. Then pour scalding hot water on their genitals. Then put a cold knife to their genitals and slowly cut their member like a cucumber. Then slowly saw their balls into pieces and force them to eat all of both. Then finnaly you nail a rope to their neck instead of tieing it and drop them from the gallows. I believe thatll be sufficient.
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there's no need for theatre...let's just do what needs to be done and get back to being a safe and free country.
all that medieval nonsense is for an uncivilized people to fantasize about. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by mrfish:
there's no need for theatre...let's just do what needs to be done and get back to being a safe and free country.
all that medieval nonsense is for an uncivilized people to fantasize about. :rolleyes:
You can tell that this is history in the making... I agree with you.
;)
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Thank you mrfish! :) Deja, did you miss Dowding's point completely? Do you lack the ability to generalize? An act of terrorism is an act of terrorism is an act of terrorism. Thats what it is! You can't gauge an act of terrorism and compare to other acts of terrorism (or acts of war, different name, same meaning. it doesnt matter). We got a taste of reality. Please don't get the "boo hoo feel sorry for me. I DESERVE attention" attitude. Thats probably just the anger setting in. Now we're on the same level as the rest of the world. We need to unite regardless of how many times we've been punched or kicked. That goes for all nations.
As Ripsnort mentioned in another post, "Revenge is like a bottle of wine... pop the cork when the time is right." Until then, do what mrfish said.
oct out
[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Octavius ]
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and don't be too surprised if congress does declare war it will be a historic time indeed :mad:
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Thank you mrfish! Deja, did you miss Dowding's point completely? Do you lack the ability to generalize? An act of terrorism is an act of terrorism is an act of terrorism. Thats what it is!
Wow octavius.. I must be pretty decent at understanding Dowding, but you must be pretty diddlying bad at understanding me.
They are not all the same. We already now the horror of "home-front" terrorism.. this is not the first time we've been exposed to it. Somehow.. magically... this is implied.
The IRA made things bad in Englad. An ex military gunner made things bad in Oklahoma. Planes have been hijacked in all countries. Things have been happening in this country as much as others.
For some reason, people think the US has been imune to terrorism... that is not the case. We are accustomed to being targets.
This is a completely different situation. The diddlying short term memory of all those implying that somehow we are finally a member of some kind of fraternal terrorism victim club is simply pathetic. The implication that since terrorism has FINALLY reached the US and that only NOW we are willing to do something about it is simply ludicrous.
This is not an act of terrorism. It is an act of war. We are exposed to terrorism as much as anyone else. Nobody is used to what happened in New York/D.C. on Tuesday.
Please don't get the "boo hoo feel sorry for me. I DESERVE attention" attitude. Thats probably just the anger setting in. Now we're on the same level as the rest of the world. We need to unite regardless of how many times we've been punched or kicked. That goes for all nations.
I don't believe I asked for pity and I'm pretty diddlying sure I don't expect it. What I'm really not looking for is condescending "welcome to terrorism USA" tones coming from threads like this and posts like yours.
AKDejaVu
<edit: Dowding... Don't take this personally... I know what you were trying to get at and I think you know what I was trying to say. This was directed at someone else>
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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No problem deja, I'm guessing you were upset like most people.
But...
Whether your brother/sister/son/daughter/father/mother was killed in a terrorist attack that killed 20 people or 20,000, I bet the pain isn't any different. I bet the bitter hate is as powerful. That is what we must remember.
In Britain we've had to adjust to the restrictions terrorism has put on our lives - at home, not abroad. Abroad, you take your chances, but at home IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY you expect and deserve to feel safe.
The IRA took that away from most British people back in the 70s and 80s, and I'm guessing that those who perpetrated this latest barbarism are about force that experience on many Americans for the first time.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
I don't believe I asked for pity and I'm pretty diddlying sure I don't expect it. What I'm really not looking for is condescending "welcome to terrorism USA" tones coming from threads like this and posts like yours.
AKDejaVu
<edit: Dowding... Don't take this personally... I know what you were trying to get at and I think you know what I was trying to say. This was directed at someone else>
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
You are funny man ....
tell me what do you know about Africa ?
btw.: i heard few words from citizen of London today ... you should visit them ;)
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I just hope this doesn't continue for any length of time. The thing that pisses me off with the IRA is that it's been decades of terror. Military in the UK have only just been allowed to wear uniform in public over the last 2 years; all service people literally have a price on their head; and even when things have been fairly quiet in Britain from terrorist attacks, I've only seen the lower security alert active for a few months out of the last 4 or 5 years. All other times it's always at the higher threat level.
Let it be known that all terrorism is the same. Whether it's an act of war or not, no one goes out asking to receive this and therefore all instances are technically an act of war. If a terrorist kills 1 or 100,000 then I do not distinguish any difference - they remain pure evil.
Just my 2 pence worth....
Regards
Nexx
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Whether your brother/sister/son/daughter/father/mother was killed in a terrorist attack that killed 20 people or 20,000, I bet the pain isn't any different. I bet the bitter hate is as powerful. That is what we must remember.
I bet the pain on an individual basis isn't any different. I bet that on a national/world level it is.
The loss of a life is not an insugnificant event. I'm not trying to pretend it is. But to be honest, people have grown used to "3 people killed in a car bombing" types of reports. The US has grown accustomed to "another American embassy/plane/ship/baracks" has been attacked.
This event has changed the view on terrorism for everyone. It is not the "standard... what we are used to" type of situation. It highlights that terrorists are not content and are willing to expand their horizons.
Once again Dowding... the US knows about terrorism. Its nothing new to us. This event was an eye opener for the whole world.
EagleC followed his traditional line of ignorance:
tell me what do you know about Africa ?
What do you need to know? That they currently have it worse down there than we do? That entire villages are slaughtered by whatever group seems to be desiring power that day? That some of my co-workers were victims of machette wielding madmen down there? That our troops have been attacked down there for trying to deliver supplies? That power mongers would rather let food sit and rot than be distributed to starving people?
What?
Do you mean to tell me this reflects on the activities of the IRA in England in any way shape or form? Maybe you can tell me what anyone is doing about Africa's problems in Europe or Asia.
btw.: i heard few words from citizen of London today ... you should visit them ;)
Um... huh?
AKDejaVu
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Deja:"Once again Dowding... the US knows about terrorism. Its nothing new to us. This event was an eye opener for the whole world."
Amen Brother!
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I can't remember when it was, but about 10 years ago or more I missed by about an hour being a witness to a car bombing here in San Diego (outside a mall in La Jolla) that killed some high ranking USN man's wife. America is aware of terrorism and don't ever imply anything similar again.
However, Tuesday the anty was upped and thus the response too.
"May God have mercy on you, we will not." -McCain
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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well what was my goal about note for AKDejaVu
Im not in shock by the fact that US has been attacked by terrorist.
Where attack was and how has been done, how many people die is else theme.
Thats all . Do you already see what im saying ?
btw.: check some comments from leaders of Interpol....
they have a bit more experience with thinks like this then we all have.
note about africa.: 500.000 people die in 7 days in Rvanda that was shock...
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: EagleC ]
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Don't try and turn this into some puerile "We've suffered more than you" competition, Deja. Please give me some credit - you know damned well that is not my intention.
I stand by what I say; terrorism is terrorism and when it's on your own soil your attitude changes.
The event has changed everyone's perception of terrorism.
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EagleC... you need to learn many things judging by your posts here and in another thread.
The main one being: Learn the difference between civil war and terrorism. Maybe then, you can begin to understand why this act is different from what is happening in Ruanda.
To be honest... I don't have much hope for you when it comes to learning.
AKDejaVu
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Orel please read this thread :
http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003082 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003082)
and do like me : Stop posting until you are pretty SURE to be clearly undertand.
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: straffo ]
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Don't try and turn this into some puerile "We've suffered more than you" competition, Deja. Please give me some credit - you know damned well that is not my intention.
Sigh... I am not trying to say that Dowding. I am simply saying that we have suffered in the past both at home and abroad. This is nothing new to us. Its not an attempt to be comparative.
But, you must remember... this is a country that recently witnessed a car-bomb take out an entire Federal building killing hundreds of people. We've recently witnessed an attack on a naval vessel that killed 41 people. This building itself has been the target of previous terrorist acts. This is different.
We've recently witnessed attacks on our embassies abroad. For those attacks, we retaliated with missile strikes. Do you know how many nations condemned that retaliation? How many nations do you think would condemn any retaliation for this event?
We have always been ready to deal with terrorism. It hasn't been the US saying "you really shouldn't be that harsh". Do you suppose this situation might cause other nations to actually see the light? Do you know why this event would do that whereas so many others that have occured all over the world in the past have not?
Think about it Dowding. Think about it very hard before comparing it to past events in some kind of "its all the same" manner.
I stand by what I say; terrorism is terrorism and when it's on your own soil your attitude changes.
Sigh.
We've had it on our soil before. That is not the issue.
Let me ask you this: Do you think the rest of the world's attitude towards terrorism may have changed just a tad bit? We've been criticized for being too harsh with our responses in the past... do you think that will happen this time?
Tell me again how its all the same. Tell me again how its only our attitude on terrorism that has changed. Tell me again that the rest of the world has been ready to do something but we've been holding them back because we really didn't understand. Please Dowding... condescend to us some more.
:rolleyes:
AKDejaVu
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Hmm, edit.
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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Steven I was there too. Her husband was the captain of the ship that shot down the Iranian airliner. She was in a VW van Northbound on Genessee at the La Jolla Village Drive intersection, right in front of UTC. She lived, only because the bomb fizzled. I was driving by on LJVD as the fire trucks arrived, and assumed it was just a typical VW engine fire...
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Let's keep it friendly.
Do you know how many nations condemned that retaliation?
Who condemned them? Russia, China, North Korea? It's the same States over and over - more for internal political reasons than anything else. The will of the leading elements to look 'tough', and follow a kind of tradition of resistance against the US.
I'm almost 100% sure NATO countries have supported the US in every counter-operation in recent times.
Britain helped the strikes against Gadaffi, for instance.
How many nations do you think would condemn any retaliation for this event?
The usual suspects would dislike it. Iraq of course; Pakistan would be against an attack on Afghanistan.
But the Western world has not changed its stance. Terrorism has to be confronted - that has not changed.
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But the Western world has not changed its stance. Terrorism has to be confronted - that has not changed.
Confrontation isn't the issue. They level is. Do you believe that the reprocussions from this would be similar to anything that has happened in the past?
And in the past.. there were always the handfull of European countries that speak out against US (and British) retaliation. Some even forbid us to use their airspace as a result of it (you mentiond Kaddafi?).
The US has always believed in retaliation for these types of acts. They have not stopped other countries from retaliating, nor have they spoken out against retaliation. The recent events in Israel come to mind... and thus some Palestinian's reaction to this tragedy.
Terrorism has happened on our soil before. Terrorism has happened in most European countries at some time or another. When has someone even considered what is being considered right now? Israel is the only one that comes to mind. All others are willing to accept small loses in order to prevent major conflict.
That attitude is about to change around the world. It has nothing to do with "home-front". It has everything to do with severity.
So... when you say "Now the US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism" you imply that this is a new subject for us. It is not.
When you say "terrorism is terrorism and when it's on your own soil your attitude changes." you imply that this is only a tragedy to us because it happened in America. Do you really believe that we would not have been impacted if it happened in another country?
AKDejaVu
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When you say "terrorism is terrorism and when it's on your own soil your attitude changes." you imply that this is only a tragedy to us because it happened in America. Do you really believe that we would not have been impacted if it happened in another country?
Frankly... sadly... yes. Had it happened in Ethiopia, Pakistan, or some other place with less media coverage, people would have shaken their heads, said "horrible, horrible", and that's it...
I could tell you about terrorist attacks here in Spain that you haven't heard of... people died... some in a VERY cruel manner, but it's simply not good enough for international news.
The constructive thing here is that since such a tremendous and barbaric act has been commited against such a powerful and mediatic nation, we will all benefit from that. Terrorism is now the great evil of the beginning of the 21st century.
Now let's get rid of it.
Daniel, aka Cyrano
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: CyranoAH ]
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Frankly... sadly... yes. Had it happened in Ethiopia, Pakistan, or some other place with less media coverage, people would have shaken their heads, said "horrible, horrible", and that's it...
This would not have happend in those countries. You might as well just leave Africa out of it. The West has given up the struggle down there long ago. There needs to be some internal settling there before terrorism is actually a viable threat.
Now.. what if it would have happened in England, France or Germany? Would those countries be saying "We're used to it... its happened here before"? Would NATO still be responding in the same manner?
There is a reason that we don't hear about many of the events that are occuring in Spain right now. Much like there is a reason we do not hear much about IRA bombings in England. Much like there is a reason you don't hear about many civil strife issues in the US. Those are internal. We/They are countries trying to make due with what they are given in spite of volotile combinations.
This event transcends that to a degree that is unparalled. Wars have been started for significantly less.
AKDejaVu
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OH yeah..
<<<For years just about every European democracy has had to deal with terrorism in some form. France has Algerian extremists, Spain has the Basque separatists, and Britain has the IRA.>>>
Terrorism from within is slightly different than that from across oceans. We do not have the trouble within like some other countries, but we do have small factions that pose problems. However, if some segment of America was to rise up to pursue acts of terror against its own, I don't think we'd be asking the UK or Spain or whoever else to assist with military action. It's a bit different. In fact, we do have our religious nutcases waiting for space ships or holing up in Waco and we have mail bombings and abortion clinic bombings and govt building bombings. Don't compare apples and oranges.
And also, as someone else pointed out in regards to other people's comments...do not confuse civil wars with terrorism from abroad too.
(grrr, I should really proof read what I type...sorry.)
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Steven ]
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Deja, I apologize for misunderstanding your post. I don't use the UBB much and I only post when I find something that really affects me. Your post stuck out with a different meaning in my mind and I posted accordingly. I don't think I deserved to be snapped upon the way ya did. :)
oct
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Swoop's turn.
First thing......DjV. We Brits have suffered decades of attacks by IRA cowards. It doesnt matter how many people have died/been maimed by these attacks. One is too many. To anyone who's been involved and lost a loved one it really doesnt matter how many other people were involved or how much wanton destruction there was. Believe me because I speak from personal experience here.
I dont give a toejam how many terrorists there are in the world. I just know that they all have to be stopped from harming anyone ever again. Anyone who supports or even claims to support ANY terrorist group should be ashamed of themselves.
On my last visit to the states I happend to pull up in traffic behind a gentlemen with a bumper sticker displaying pro IRA feelings......the girl I was with had to talk me out of committing assault.....but that's just my reaction. I sincerely hope that that gentlemen now realises what it is he stands for. There is no distinction.
Whether it be a nail bomb in Harrods or a biochemical device deployed in water systems, the effect on a personal level is the same......you've lost someone you love and would dearly love to find and kill the perpetrator.
Secondly, if you look past the terrible acts committed in the last few days, past the awful death toll and outragous destruction........what this has accomplished is to unite the world against such bastards. Doesnt matter what language you speak, your skin colour or your political affiliation.......right now the world will no longer stand for the killing of innocents.
And that is how I hope it stays.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
P.S. Replies to this post will not be responded to. Mainly because I'm on vacation in Turkey and dont visit internet cafes every day but also because I dont wanna hear it. And yes, I am very emotional right now.
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Agreed Swoop.
Terrorism from within is slightly different than that from across oceans.
Steven - I think I ought to enlighten you as to the facts about the IRA. First of all, they were funded by parties outside of Britain. Americans and Libyans primarily, so in effect attacks by the IRA did originate from 'across the oceans'.
Without the external support, they could not have trained or equipped their own particular brand of cowards.
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First thing......DjV. We Brits have suffered decades of attacks by IRA cowards. It doesnt matter how many people have died/been maimed by these attacks. One is too many. To anyone who's been involved and lost a loved one it really doesnt matter how many other people were involved or how much wanton destruction there was. Believe me because I speak from personal experience here.
And in each and every one of those attacks.. what was the international response? Like I said... the feeling on a personal level is going to be severe no matter what the size of the attack. To group this in as just another terrorist event is misguided to say the least.
I dont give a toejam how many terrorists there are in the world. I just know that they all have to be stopped from harming anyone ever again. Anyone who supports or even claims to support ANY terrorist group should be ashamed of themselves.
I totally agree.
On my last visit to the states I happend to pull up in traffic behind a gentlemen with a bumper sticker displaying pro IRA feelings......the girl I was with had to talk me out of committing assault.....but that's just my reaction. I sincerely hope that that gentlemen now realises what it is he stands for. There is no distinction.
And how do you think we feel when we see "this was deserved" displayed by our own citizens? It is the price you pay for allowing this level of freedom in a nation. Insensitivity is protected too.
Whether it be a nail bomb in Harrods or a biochemical device deployed in water systems, the effect on a personal level is the same......you've lost someone you love and would dearly love to find and kill the perpetrator.
On a personal level yes. Now, the issue is wether or not the rest of the world is going to join you in your hunt. Once again... this is the distinction.
We've hunted people down before. We've had terrorist acts commited here on our soil before. This is the first time I know of any scenario where a terrorist act has brought virtually the whole world together. Russia has offered troops to support any military acts we deem necessary. China has offered to send aid to N.Y. Think about that.
Secondly, if you look past the terrible acts committed in the last few days, past the awful death toll and outragous destruction........what this has accomplished is to unite the world against such bastards. Doesnt matter what language you speak, your skin colour or your political affiliation.......right now the world will no longer stand for the killing of innocents.
You got this part 100% correct. But what your not fully realising this is after all the terrorist events that have happened all over the world for the last 50 years... why is this the one that brought it all together?
This event is not like anything that has happened before. The entire world realises that. The entire world has experienced terrorism on their home-front and know of its effects. The fact that this event happened in America is irrelevant. The fact that it happened at all is.
So.. this is not the first act of foreign terrorism to occur in the US.
This is not the first act of terrorism that has resulted in loss of life in the US or anywhere else.
This is not the fist act of terrorism that has prompted international retaliation.
This is the first act of terrorism that has actually united the world in its resolve.
AKDejaVu
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Dowding,
How are the IRA funded by America/Americans?
Please enlighten me because I cannot know all and admit to not knowing much about the situation. However, I hardly think that the IRA is backed by my govt and I would bet it is only a few nutcases in the US that are probably of Irish heritage. I personally think the whole thing is silly and very sad, but I cannot dictate any personal feelings to those Irish-Americans who subscribe to the madness. But please, go into greater detail so I can learn. Does my government provide safe haven to known criminals or supply the IRA with weapons? Please enlighten me to the situation with details. Also, let me know what you want America to do about the situation.
Look at the title of this thread, I'm still incensed by it. "Now The US knows the horror of 'home-front' terrorism." Almost like you are glad... like a relief that we finally suffered some senseless death...almost like you are saying it's about time the USA suffers some of what we've suffered.
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Steven ]
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Once again..The liberals in the U.S. as well as the world will ride the Coat tails of those willing to stand up and fight back. It's not a matter of whose had this or that done to them in the past. It's a matter of what should not and hopefully will not ever happen again. This is not a pssing contest boys , this is war.
I hope that the terrorist that did this understand that they are dead men walking. I hope that they feel every pain that is due them. Nothing on this earth or in the past compares to what this nation has seen. Killing 1 or 20k is all the same. They will be dealt with.
Just don't make this a contest of who has been hurt more in the past. Now is what we have. Lets make the best of it.
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No problem, Steven.
The IRA has never been funded by the US government. But most of their funds came from American citizens who saw the struggle in Ireland to be akin to the American Revolution. Aside to direct sponsoring of the IRA, there was also a great deal of support in certain quarters (not only Irish-Americans) that what the IRA were doing was acceptable.
Ironically, the money being given to the IRA was then used by them to buy weapons from America's arch enemy - Libya. This is one reason why Britain allowed US fighter-bombers to refuel in the UK enroute to hit Tripoli in '87.
Today, the former political wing of the IRA, Sinn Fein, still gets hundreds of millions of dollars in donations from US citizens.
Also, let me know what you want America to do about the situation.
1) Use the political momentum generated by the attack to put pressure on those protecting the perpetrators to hand them over.
2) If this is unsuccessful, utilize a well aimed, pin point strike at whoever planned and carried out the latest attack.
3) Follow up this strike with a committed multi-national response to the root cause of terrorism and expand this to all terrorist organisations.
4) Help make State sponsored terrorism a crime against humanity.
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Um.. jackal... you're off.
The implication is that this is the first act of foreign terrorism on U.S. soil and that's what makes it such a big deal. That assumption is wrong on both accounts.
Nobody is saying anyone has had it worse than anyone else. But to say that the World Trade Center destruction is simply something that other countries have been enduring for decades is incorrect.
The entire tone of the thread is flawed to the core.
AKDejaVu
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Dowding,
Looks like I edited my previous msg while you posted a response to me. You are quick!
But you misunderstood. What do you want us to do about the IRA? Prevent Irish-Americans from transferring funds to family in Ireland? Invade?
Of course we want to stamp out terrorism. We do not send missiles into Irish strongholds because you are with us in the fight against terrorism and you are quite capable. However, when it involves a state that is not with us in our fight against terrorism and in fact openly supports it and proof is available that the support is overt, then yes... it is a very different situation and we have to intervene and cross borders.
I still say it's different. Also, the main topic of this thread is that America finally knows the pain of terrorism though we've gotten slightly off topic.
-Puke
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I agree Deja..It is flawed...I guess what I mean is and do agree with you by the way , Is..Simply..We have felt it..To imply we havent is wrong. However , (i may have misread the tone) I feel that it is not a point of where it has happened in the past any more. It is simply that we should never let it happen again.
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I'm 'glad' that someone chose to fly a loaded airliner into a packed office building?
I don't think you could have been more insulting if you had tried.
I made an effort to go sign a book of condolence today. Not much, but more than sitting on my arse posting gloating topics on some internet board, eh?
I was 'trying' to say that we should unite against terrorism, and more specifically against those who sponsor it no matter where they live or in which country. I used the IRA situation as an example I am familiar with - I was not suggesting America was somehow culpable for the situation in NI.
In summary, I want to see a united response that recognises that all aspects of terrorism are crimes against humanity. And that includes fund-raising.
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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Dowding,
You are beginning to turn this into an "America seems to think its OK to support the IRA - Hypocrites" argument.
Please stop that.
AKDejaVu
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You are beginning to turn this into an "America seems to think its OK to support the IRA - Hypocrites" argument.
With all due respect:
The bollocks I am.
But since you can't/won't understand plain English no matter how it is re-phrased, what's the point in continuing to discuss this?
[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
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You should talk dowding.
Read the title of this thread. Tell me how it is not condescending.
Tell me how mentioning US citezens funding the IRA then saying how we should be fighting ALL terrorism is not implying what I said above.
Dowding, you found an above statement insulting. Time to read the statements you are making back to yourself.
England has no special insight on terrorism. We can compare incidents and body counts all you want. The US and the world has experience here... not just England.
To sit here and lecture us on our role in the world prevention of terrorism (especially in regards to the IRA) in the wake of this event is in incredibly bad taste.
I'm sorry for you that you don't realize that.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Dowding:
No problem, Steven.
3) Follow up this strike with a committed multi-national response to the root cause of terrorism and expand this to all terrorist organisations.
4) Help make State sponsored terrorism a crime against humanity.
Gotta ask, what do you think is the "root cause" of terrorism?
And point number four - this would imply that we should drag a bunsh of American presidents to the court (and a lot of other leaders of the 'free western democracies'.
Example: Contras in Nicaragua was much a State (US) sponsored and trained terrorist organization that commited horrible acts of atrocities. See Noam Chomsky "Power and ideology" for details.
I don't agree on ANY form of terrorism, may it be of islamic or western origin. Hypocracy makes me want to puke. I'm honestly very sorry and upset by the events in the US, there's no excuse what so ever, and the guilty should be hunted down without mercy.
However - pretending like the US and the rest of the western allience is the light of the world and a defender of liberty and freedom is laughable. The last 60 years the worst terroist in the world has probably been the US, only it has not been scrutinized in the public medias, and in other cases it has been labeled as "defence" against "internal agression" as in the case of Vietnam or Korea, thousands of miled away from american soil.
I'd rather not bring up stuff like this with the late events in mind, but the rethorics here are so biased that I had to provide an alternative view.
Again, my heart is with the victims of the horrible attack this tuesday.
:(
Rethoric question: what are the root cause of terrorism? What is the most effective way to remove terrorism?
Thank you.
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Originally posted by Steven:
Dowding,
Looks like I edited my previous msg while you posted a response to me. You are quick!
But you misunderstood. What do you want us to do about the IRA? Prevent Irish-Americans from transferring funds to family in Ireland? Invade?
Of course we want to stamp out terrorism. We do not send missiles into Irish strongholds because you are with us in the fight against terrorism and you are quite capable. However, when it involves a state that is not with us in our fight against terrorism and in fact openly supports it and proof is available that the support is overt, then yes... it is a very different situation and we have to intervene and cross borders.
I still say it's different. Also, the main topic of this thread is that America finally knows the pain of terrorism though we've gotten slightly off topic.
-Puke
I think what Dowding actually meant is that several known terrorist organisations who were on the 'international' known list were permitted to enter the USA without any hassle. Only within the last 6 months has 2 known terrorist organisation actually been banned enterring the USA now (including the Provisional IRA but not the 'Real' IRA for eg). The problem we saw is how could any country distinguish one terrorist organisation to another.
Regards
Nexx
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Jammer,
<<<The last 60 years the worst terroist in the world has probably been the US, only it has not been scrutinized in the public medias, and in other cases it has been labeled as "defence" against "internal agression" as in the case of Vietnam or Korea, thousands of miled away from american soil.>>>
The bias is on your end trying to lump such things in with terrorism. You start your count about the time of the Battle of Britain which was the beginning of what was a European war and saw the refinement of the terror bombings of cities and civilians.
Korea: NATO action to come to the aid of an ally. This isn't just USA. The Punsan pocket was a very small area of territory which is when NATO was really able to jump in with force. Clear warfare, not a terrorist action. A war initiated by the North.
Vietnam: The incursion was ONLY North to South and nothing else. S. Vietnam and America was not trying to invade N. Vietnam and there were no intentions to take down their government but only prevent the infiltration of the South. Military actions were very closely controled in an effort to spare civilian casualties like no other war before. No bombing of dikes, damns or of trucks more than 300 yards off a road or near any villages. Couldn't bomb SAMS or trucks being offloaded from ships but had to attack them one by one as they came down the trail or shot a deadly missile at you. It's the effort to protect civilians that dragged this war on and made it more deadly in the end. However, it was purely defensive in nature with no landings to cut into N Vietnam and force them to shift attention from S Vietnam and possibly force an open field battle. I don't necessarily disagree with our course of action in Vietnam; however, it was nothing close to terrorism.
These things are not acts of terror on our part. In fact, WW2 Europe, Korea and Vietnam were efforts to come to an ally's aid. And don't think it wasn't requested.
I'm going to refrain from posting any more on these topics even though some of you have really angered me with your comments. Big bad America beats everyone up...or, we don't jump in when we should, or "NOW the USA knows the horror of terrorism." And now I read that we are being called the greatest actor of terrorism. We don't think it's sport dying for everyone else. We don't get any higher seat in heaven for it.
-Puke
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Steven: of course you don't think it's a sport dying for others.
However, the real reasons for the US to intervene in Korea and Vietnam was hardly good-hearted kindness. Nor was it really to prevent communism to spread as there were never any threat or real evidence of this being a real danger. The purpose was to strenghten US influence in the region and to remove the threat of 'the good example'. Countries that dare to try to limit the possabilities of US and western financial and political influence was very likely to be declared for "communistic" and hence must be "protected against internal agressors", either directly or indirect (like in the case with Nicaragua). The media has almost always been very obedient and uncritically repeated the official agenda ad nauseum until the truth is no longer possible to see.
Lies is mixed with desinformation and this way the public are kept in the illusion that 'we are there to help them', or 'we are defending the libery and freedom of the world', which is very strange since several democratic governments has been overthrown by US intervention and replaced by puppet cabinets that know their place and don't question the US right to exploit cheap labour and other resources.
All in the name of 'free trade' and 'capitalism', the mantra of our time. Capitalism when it fits and protectionism when suitable. 'Free trande' on the conditions of the masters.
If you are interested in further studies I can recommend John Pilger "Hidden Agenda" and Noam Chomsky's "Rollback" article series in "Z Magazine", 1995.
It's a scary thought, but what if it's true? Have you ever even considered the possability that we (the west) are no the saintly good guys we pretend to be?
Have you considered the possability that we are selfish, greedy and short-sighted?
That we plunder, kill and whip lesser nations into obedience, through economical punishment as well as trough subversive activities (supporting terrorist organizations etc).
If you have the guts to think outside the mainstream media and think for yourself you will probably see that there's indeed a 'brave new world' out there. A world where the poor two thirds get the crumbs from the rich one thirds table. And they are supposed to be grateful too.
:mad:
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Well said Jammer. I believe this is a time that we should be questioning our goverments actions more, not less. Our leaders decisions will have such a greater effect, on our countries and the world in general, and especially the men and women we are sending off to die. No reason why we should think like mindless zealots.
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I lost out in my fight to not respond. Anyway, I'll pass on reading the works of an anti-capatilist and an old-liner communist.
-Puke
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Sorry to hear that Steven.
The "See no evil, hear no evil" mentality is really the main problem. You dismiss opinions as "communist" because you have all been thaught that anyone opposing the western foreign politics must be either insane or a communist, or probably both.
If you don't ever consider questioning the stuff that the power feeds you then you are truly unfree.
Note, I'm not personally attacking you Steven, sorry if it comes across that way. I'm speaking in a general way, and I'm sure you are a great guy. It's just the "knee jerk "reaction a lot of people display when the "official version" is challenged that I wanted to point out.
I can't make you think differently. I can tell you what I have found out by reading and trying to make up my OWN mind, going beyond the Murdoch-Turner conglomerates that has more or less monopolized the "third power" in the western world.
Cheers,
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The "See no evil, hear no evil" mentality is really the main problem.
That's a very easy thing to say for someone that chooses what he wants to see.
AKDejaVu
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Well if I 'choose' to see the uncomfortable view on things and you 'choose' to see the comfortable view, then we have a difference to discuss.
If all chose to see the same thing then there'd be no discussion and hence no democracy.
I'm aware of both views, and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. To outright deny to give any credit to critical views and opinions is something close to fanatism. If you don't critically review your own leaders and leadership and what propaganda they feed you then you are close to the Orwellian version of '1984'. If you let the powers that be to control your mind by propaganda then you are nothing more than a drone or minon.
Free your mind!
Cheers,
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Jammer, if you choose to see only one side of things then call others blind for not seeing it... there is something of a paradox.
Basically.. take off the blinders.
AKDejaVu
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I see both views as I said...but if no one challenge the mainstream views and official propagande, tell me, where do we end up?
Please read my post again and comment each part of it. Then we can have a discussion.
:)
Cheers,
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Well if I 'choose' to see the uncomfortable view on things and you 'choose' to see the comfortable view, then we have a difference to discuss.
Its a matter of not choosing simply because its outlandish or unpopular.
Your comments on Korea speak for themselves. You are might be looking at the whole picture, but you are ignoring most of it for the sake of being unpopular. Whatever floats your boat.
AKDejaVu
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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Ok guys... lets try to clear this up a little... The war on terrorism needs to be fought against all terrorists by all civilized countries.
If, for instance, an IRA training camp is found in a remote U.S. location.... U.S. government should notify those most affected (U.K.) and a joint action taken or (better but unlikely) let the U.K. have free reign to handle it as they see fit with safe transport to the area. Anyone funding terrorists groups should have an accident.
lazs
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Jammer,
Your words come across from on high down towards the rest of us. I may not be well versed on middle-east matters, the Korean war or Afghan war, but I am very well versed on the events of our Vietnam War being a student of the topic for the past twenty years. Again, I'll pass on the readings you've suggested and it's not due to any blinders I may have.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Steven, I respect that.
I'm not trying to come across as 'better' or 'higher' than anyone else here. English is my second language, and I might express my self in way that might sound different from what I intend.
If I can get only one more person the critically review what's being propagated to him/her, then I've reached my goal.
I don't suggest you should accept my view anymore than anyone elses view. But if you draw your conclusions exclusively on what you learn from offical channels and monopolized media, then we all are a step closer to totalitarism.
As I said, I respect everyones right to an opinion - and if your opinoin is based on facts, then so be it.
However, it's ALWAYS interesting to question 'facts', when they are presented by a party in a ongoing conflict, or by a party that is by some way dependant or connected to the power structure in our society.
Thank you. I hope I didn't waste you time.
Here's a link if you don't want to pick up the book:
John Pilger: Vietnam; 'the longest war' (http://pilger.carlton.com/vietnam)
"At any given moment, there is a sort of all pervading orthodoxy, a general tacit agreement not to discuss large and uncomfortable facts."
George Orwell
[ 09-15-2001: Message edited by: Jammer ]
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Who was it who said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own set of facts."?
I know I've read it somewhere, can't remember if it was attributed.
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Jeepers - where do these pro-communist dolps come from? What, bored with comfortable life? Rebelling against daddy's beliefs again? :eek:
Not happy about American involvement in Korea? Why don't you ask South Koreans how they would like living in a united communist Korea? You do know what it's like over there, don't you?
While you at it - check on the wellfare of millions slaughtered by lovely communist regime trademarked under the name of Pol Pot. And that's those we know about - how many more went to be "re-educated" with a bullet in the back of their head?
America lost Vietnam war - millions died as a direct result of the US defeat. Or don't they mention these "inconvenient" facts in the books you read?
The USA involved in state terrorism? More like trying to stop state terrorism :mad:
p.s. Dowding - you're trying to make a valid point but the topic header borders insensitive
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Um.. lynx... The Vietnamese brought and end to Pol Pot's regime. Don't confuse Cambodia with Vietnam.
Lets not turn this into a communism vs democracy debate. That has little/nothing to do with what is going on right now.
AKDejaVu