Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: humble on April 26, 2005, 12:58:42 PM
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Flew 1 hop in the DA and 1 in the MA....
All in all a very decent fighting platform. Still has outstanding climb and acceleration and is formidable when flown to its strengths. Is a bit "wobbly" as it bleeds E in any type of flat turn and requires alot of elv input (trim and/or stick) as it speeds up. Has poor ballistics which certainly makes it more difficult to score with compared to most other planes in the set.
http://www.azhacker.com/images/109F4inMA.ahf
http://www.azhacker.com/images/109F4.ahf
I'm not an uberstick regardless, and this is the 1st time I've flown the 109F in AH2 (had to set views in DA this morning). I can see how eagler and the other 109 aces can make the bird sing. Based on limited experience in other 109's Ithink the F might be the most versital of the bunch by far....
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Emils, ya gotta like Emils :)
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/810_1110602398_109e7tropsicilyjg27.jpg)
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109F is a spit in disguise.
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To me there is a huge differance...now part of it might be stick since I just replaced my X-45 with a X-52 and hate the twisty stick. But the thing is much more "squirrelly" then a spitty in a true T&B fight...nose is all over the map and it wants to spin all the time....
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IMO the franz is the bestest 109 but I always love a good Emil flight.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
IMO the franz is the bestest 109 but I always love a good Emil flight.
Only time I've flown the E is in the CT...ballistics are just horrible. 202 much much better bird IMO...
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I like the E's performance over the 202. Plus the Emil has the 2000 rds of 7mm in the nose. It's very effective. I've gotten 3-4 kill sorties before in an Emil (not in CT) with 1x ammo and fuel multipliers. It's quite capable, even against Spits and Hurris.
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I'll have to check it out...dont think i've flown it since AH1. As of then it was a grossly under powered dog (IMO) with no redeeming features at all. Basically pawned by P40-b and similiar birds...cant imagine it being a match for any flavor of spit or hurricane but I'll fire one up next time I log on....
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I feel guilty flying 109F, I like the G-6 better because of its manliness. I like the G-2 too but the feeling of virtually flying a german plane is not present (no offense to the Fins:)) The G-10 is an overkill - too much power and torque on its 13 yr old design airframe...
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Originally posted by humble
I'll have to check it out...dont think i've flown it since AH1. As of then it was a grossly under powered dog (IMO) with no redeeming features at all. Basically pawned by P40-b and similiar birds...cant imagine it being a match for any flavor of spit or hurricane but I'll fire one up next time I log on....
Emil is great Vs spits and hurris it should be able to just out turn the spitV bearly but the spit bearly out turns it eather way it gives the spit a run for its money.
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I dont recall it having enough power in the vertical vs the spitV...obviously the spit I is its historical foe and I dont know how much difference there is since I almost never fly spits (cept in last month or so)...I just remember the 202/109E vs spits (or was it hurricanes) & P40B's in med...flew 202 after realizing my stick wouldnt survive being pounded on much more...(old X36 was more JB weld then plastic:))....
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Flew a couple of hops in the DA in 109E vs Skyrock in SpitV. No question he's got a better set of merges than I do....but we both came away thinking the 109E (in my hands at least) has zippo chance vs a spit V. So if you can take on a well flown spit V in one your alot better than I am....
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the only person who I cant even get a shot on in a Emil vs. a spit is that bastage bat:aok most the little MA tards who have no skill and do the same crap are easy in it.
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maybe if the spit turns with you your fine...skyrock took me up in modified doubles off relatively even merges...he had a bit of edge but Ifelt "OK"...then he rolled and pointed noes up and just topped me out...vertical seperation was less than 600 but no chance for me to get nose up enough...the 1 I got away and got a good rev but couldnt do anything with it...the second he just smacked me down hard....in both cases I simply didnt feel like I had anything to exploit. Obviously pilot quality is the big issue....skyrock will beat me spitV to spitV most of the time....but its close and I'll sneak one occasionally. My merges simply arent up to snuff for the DA (yet)....if I get by "even" I can make a good fight of it....109E I just had no chance...think the spit can get around on it in just a couple of turns...or loops....then again I'm certainly not a 109 ace.
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After all the SpitV uber bla bla discussions, TK and I happened to be in the DA last night and gave them a good work out .
In pure Co-e turnfights we had many awesome fights to the deck, that were as good as any fights you could wish for in the CT. It was great fun to fly in the "other man's shoes".
And even though TK certainly won more than he lost , the F was able to sneak in a couple of wins , and certainly was able to "put up a fight". An experienced 109 pilot such as Eagler would have probably fared even better. Now we didn't do anything like try it against a G6 or a G10 , where the pilot as much better options than turnfighting , or for that matter against the E , which would do a better job of turning with it. So my original opinion still stands , as does the thing that irks me about all the Spit-whining, you want it all one way. To me , you guys are way too paranoid about the Spit V .
And , I really think you should spend some time in "the other mans shoes" you may see that the grass is not all green on the other side. The point I was trying to make in the other thread, was the SpitV is no more tougher opponent in the Euro theatre than the NIki is in the PAC .
here's a challenge for any of you guys - to fly the allied side of
SpitV vs 109E, F , G6, G10
Niki vs Fm-2, F6-F , F4u-1 , F4U1C
(VWE this offer still stands any time you want to pop in to DA)
Not only will you have fun , you'll learn something about the other side of the fence and you'll have some great fights, probably also have a better idea of how to fight against the bad dudes
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I think the F is a "decent" match for the spitV especially in the MA or CT enviornment....in a true duel all the cards fall toward the spit initially I think....did you tryany doubles Redd....the F used to be able to top the V out and drag the fight up...no clue if it still can....Iknow the E cant:(
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At sea level the Spit V outclimbs the 109F by about 180-200 ft per minute, havent tested higher.
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Originally posted by humble
I think the F is a "decent" match for the spitV especially in the MA or CT enviornment....in a true duel all the cards fall toward the spit initially I think....did you tryany doubles Redd....the F used to be able to top the V out and drag the fight up...no clue if it still can....Iknow the E cant:(
No you'd never shake it in a dbl or any type of attempted E-merge. To E-fight it you would need a starting E-position up your sleeve I came to the conclusion very quickly that down and dirty was the best option , and try to force some overshoots for snapshots - problem is my gunnery in 109 sucks but at least it wokrd a couple of times. In one really fast merge where I took a very low fast approach and the spit followed , he snapped the wings off , but I'm not sure you could rely on that as a regular tactic ;)
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So its really a double negative plane then vs the V....once your in your in:)...
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What I noticed in the fights with Redd was that the spitV sure can out turn a F but it cant sissor with it. If you keep him sissoring the F will win.
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Numbers were off a bit in the CT so I went Axis and had my first flight in a 109 other then the Emil. Flew the F4. It sure seemed to work well. I never ran into a Spit, but it did fine against a 38J, 38G and two P47D11s
There were three of us who ended up flying together for a bit and on our one flight I think we landed 9 kills. I had 4 and RTR had 5 in his 190A5. Jeebuz had a bunch of assists and ended up ditching out of fuel.
I'm a lousy stick but the transition to the F4 felt relatively good.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by TrueKill
What I noticed in the fights with Redd was that the spitV sure can out turn a F but it cant sissor with it. If you keep him sissoring the F will win.
So an honest question
Have you changed your view that the Spit V is uber/unbeatable/silly/overmodelled , and should never be allowed in the CT ? ;)
Is it any worse in it's era and theatre than say the niki ?
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If I may? What's porked about the SpitV, and why everybody gripes, is the way a slow speed SpitV with no speed and no advantage can literally hang on its prop without stalling and still maintain impossible guns lock.
I was in a Ki84 vs Blonde in his SpitV. I had a bit of an alt advantage, but more E, so when I saw him rolling to point up at me I went vertical.. and vertical.. and vertical.. and dammit I kept freaking going up and that damn spitV hung in the vertical behind me and shot me to pieces. I got it on film. It's stupid. It's retarded. No plane should be able to do that BS. Blonde did it repeatedly.
I'm not paranoid. The SpitV kills in single pings (every time I fly it) and it has way too much power ESPECIALLY when it's slow. It can do impossible moves.
Sorry to interrupt. Just my take on the whole "SpitV is porked" debate.
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Originally posted by Krusty
If I may? What's porked about the SpitV, and why everybody gripes, is the way a slow speed SpitV with no speed and no advantage can literally hang on its prop without stalling and still maintain impossible guns lock.
I was in a Ki84 vs Blonde in his SpitV. I had a bit of an alt advantage, but more E, so when I saw him rolling to point up at me I went vertical.. and vertical.. and vertical.. and dammit I kept freaking going up and that damn spitV hung in the vertical behind me and shot me to pieces. I got it on film. It's stupid. It's retarded. No plane should be able to do that BS. Blonde did it repeatedly.
I'm not paranoid. The SpitV kills in single pings (every time I fly it) and it has way too much power ESPECIALLY when it's slow. It can do impossible moves.
Sorry to interrupt. Just my take on the whole "SpitV is porked" debate.
hmmmmm the "hurricane" should not have the problem out-climbing the spit or else you're doing something wrong :).
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Numbers were off a bit in the CT so I went Axis and had my first flight in a 109 other then the Emil. Flew the F4. It sure seemed to work well. I never ran into a Spit, but it did fine against a 38J, 38G and two P47D11s
There were three of us who ended up flying together for a bit and on our one flight I think we landed 9 kills. I had 4 and RTR had 5 in his 190A5. Jeebuz had a bunch of assists and ended up ditching out of fuel.
I'm a lousy stick but the transition to the F4 felt relatively good.
Dan/CorkyJr
Outside of a dueling enviornment I think the 109 is just fine. RTR and Iflew a couple in the DA earlier and he's a fine stick. With a plane like the 109 good companycertainly helps...I noticed in my 1st MA hop I had zero problem with pony, D-9 or lala...I'd think the 38's (especially the J) would be tough however....
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Originally posted by IK3
hmmmmm the "hurricane" should not have the problem out-climbing the spit or else you're doing something wrong :).
Actually spit V owns the hurricane, I fought either Rival or RTR in one in DA....not even close. Spittyhas way to much pop for the hurricane.
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Originally posted by Redd
So an honest question
Have you changed your view that the Spit V is uber/unbeatable/silly/overmodelled , and should never be allowed in the CT ? ;)
Is it any worse in it's era and theatre than say the niki ?
The 109 is a bit worse then I'd of thought since the boost on the V is up...although its the ballistics that really cause the problem. Simply to hard to capitalize...your going to get one shot and youneed to hit it....(know you were asking TK)
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Originally posted by TrueKill
What I noticed in the fights with Redd was that the spitV sure can out turn a F but it cant sissor with it. If you keep him sissoring the F will win.
"scissor with it" when would you do that?
the guns on the spitV make short work of anything - can you say uber lasers?
the spitV/109f used to be the best matchup in AH before the patch which changed all that. Used to win most of those matchups
now the spitV is the superior plane by far, I don't win any against a pilot who knows anything bout flying a spit
the 109f was better b4 they activated the slats feature.
now you have those things clanging in and out throwing off your aim at just the wrong time. Still, it is my plane of choice though it isn't as invincible as it once was
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Originally posted by Krusty
If I may? What's porked about the SpitV, and why everybody gripes, is the way a slow speed SpitV with no speed and no advantage can literally hang on its prop without stalling and still maintain impossible guns lock.
I was in a Ki84 vs Blonde in his SpitV. I had a bit of an alt advantage, but more E, so when I saw him rolling to point up at me I went vertical.. and vertical.. and vertical.. and dammit I kept freaking going up and that damn spitV hung in the vertical behind me and shot me to pieces. I got it on film. It's stupid. It's retarded. No plane should be able to do that BS. Blonde did it repeatedly.
I'm not paranoid. The SpitV kills in single pings (every time I fly it) and it has way too much power ESPECIALLY when it's slow. It can do impossible moves.
Sorry to interrupt. Just my take on the whole "SpitV is porked" debate.
yes you are paranoid. furthermore you are a dweeb. aside from that you are a no skill whiner. everyone knows the spitv was the be all end all of WWII fighters and that the spitv was the actual inspiration for Igor Sikorsky to invent the helicopter. Igor got his idea when he saw downed pilots in the channel being pulled out of the drink by specially modified spitvs that would lower a ladder to them as the spitv hung indefinitely in the vertical. :D
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Originally posted by Eagler
"scissor with it" when would you do that?
the guns on the spitV make short work of anything - can you say uber lasers?
the spitV/109f used to be the best matchup in AH before the patch which changed all that. Used to win most of those matchups
now the spitV is the superior plane by far, I don't win any against a pilot who knows anything bout flying a spit
the 109f was better b4 they activated the slats feature.
now you have those things clanging in and out throwing off your aim at just the wrong time. Still, it is my plane of choice though it isn't as invincible as it once was
You scissor, when you're desperate, at 500 feet over the water , doing 100mph , and you have nothing else left to try of course ;)
And the slats are a damn plain in the butt - do they come with silencers ? , keep thinking I've been shot :)
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Originally posted by Redd
You scissor, when you're desperate, at 500 feet over the water , doing 100mph , and you have nothing else left to try of course ;)
And the slats are a damn plain in the butt - do they come with silencers ? , keep thinking I've been shot :)
turn the sound effect to zero in set up
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Originally posted by Eagler
"scissor with it" when would you do that?
the guns on the spitV make short work of anything - can you say uber lasers?
the spitV/109f used to be the best matchup in AH before the patch which changed all that. Used to win most of those matchups
now the spitV is the superior plane by far, I don't win any against a pilot who knows anything bout flying a spit
the 109f was better b4 they activated the slats feature.
now you have those things clanging in and out throwing off your aim at just the wrong time. Still, it is my plane of choice though it isn't as invincible as it once was
hehe....
I didnt want to go that far....but I have to admit its been nuetered an awful lot more than I thought. Even its verticals arent really good. Got into a "1 on 1" with a zeke(5) last night...he blew the merge, the remerge and so on...but climbed right up my 6 with no problem at all even so.....I missed 15-20 shots from 250 or less on the hop overall....horrible view under nose and 20mm that rolls of the end of the barrel....any italian squads out there?:)
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Originally posted by Redd
So an honest question
Have you changed your view that the Spit V is uber/unbeatable/silly/overmodelled , and should never be allowed in the CT ? ;)
Is it any worse in it's era and theatre than say the niki ?
its still uber/unbeatable/silly/overmodelled it shouldnt be in early war setups anymore.
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Originally posted by Eagler
the 109f was better b4 they activated the slats feature.
now you have those things clanging in and out throwing off your aim at just the wrong time. Still, it is my plane of choice though it isn't as invincible as it once was
Dont' ya just hate when yer invincible plane isn't anymore and something else becomes an "uber" aircraft.
Just sayin'....:D
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Originally posted by storch
yes you are paranoid. furthermore you are a dweeb. aside from that you are a no skill whiner. everyone knows the spitv was the be all end all of WWII fighters and that the spitv was the actual inspiration for Igor Sikorsky to invent the helicopter. Igor got his idea when he saw downed pilots in the channel being pulled out of the drink by specially modified spitvs that would lower a ladder to them as the spitv hung indefinitely in the vertical. :D
I've always like the name spitcopter.... remember when the CT was setup with a6ma2 against the new spitv ... lol
You would get on a spits 6 and all they had to do was go vertical and the thing flew away like a UFO.
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Originally posted by soda72
I've always like the name spitcopter.... remember when the CT was setup with a6ma2 against the new spitv ... lol
You would get on a spits 6 and all they had to do was go vertical and the thing flew away like a UFO.
on a serious note if the spit were modelled accurately there would be no objection to it's use from anyone. it just wasn't that good. the spitV was outclassed by the 190A3 and the 109G hence the arrival of the mark IX in 1942. I just flew a sortie in the MA off of CV67 in fleet defense using the the seafireII I scored 4 kills easily while taking an order on the phone and landed them. there is something seriously wrong with that. it should not be so uber.
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Originally posted by storch
on a serious note if the spit were modelled accurately there would be no objection to it's use from anyone. it just wasn't that good. the spitV was outclassed by the 190A3 and the 109G hence the arrival of the mark IX in 1942. I just flew a sortie in the MA off of CV67 in fleet defense using the the seafireII I scored 4 kills easily while taking an order on the phone and landed them. there is something seriously wrong with that. it should not be so uber.
I always hate arguing whether or not it's model accurately, I just don't know enough about it to make that kind of claim. But IMO since the f4 isn't a good match anymore I would say leave the spitv out of CT setups. (or put it in the back fields like they did with this setup)
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Originally posted by humble
Actually spit V owns the hurricane, I fought either Rival or RTR in one in DA....not even close. Spittyhas way to much pop for the hurricane.
note that i was refering to Ki-84... aka the "hurricane" of the far east :)
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Originally posted by 1K3
note that i was refering to Ki-84... aka the "hurricane" of the far east :)
yes I caught that. :D
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Storch, that spitcopter must have been unpleasant for the pilots being rescued. I'd personally wait for the boat.
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Eagler, and all 109F4 fans
The slats have always worked. If I recall they were there in AH1 as well. Most memorably in the Emil, but I do recall having them pop out in all models.
The 109s NOW are way better than they used to be. They got a definite increase in roll rate and manuverability. I used to not be able to fly the F4 or G2 at all. I had no idea what the hubbub was about. When I tried flying them in anything other than auto level I'd spike out and spin to my death. They must have fixed something in AH2. I wasn't the only one complaining of this problem in AH1.
My take on the F4 vs SpitV matchup is that it's no longer a good match. The G-2 vs SpitV is better (more power, just about the same manuverability). I like the F4. It even has some kickass skins. But when I know it won't stack up vs the oponents I'll be facing I try the G2 or a different ride altogether.
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Originally posted by humble
hehe....
I didnt want to go that far....but I have to admit its been nuetered an awful lot more than I thought. Even its verticals arent really good.
Yup, this is my view also. IMO the Spit V (12+ boost) and the 109F was the single best matchup in the CT, I used to love those sets. The Spit V still held the turn and slow speed advantage, but the 109F had speed, and more importantly it owned the verticle against the Spit V. The Spit V went from 303mph on the deck with WEP to 316mph, only 3 mph slower than the Spit IX and now its far far better in the verticle. Now, the 109F is only marginally faster and its climb rate is LOWER than the Spit V at sea level. It does not have any advantages over the Spit V other than the paltry 15-16mph speed advantage.
I am not advocating taking the Spit V out of any sets, but I do not agree that the 109F has any chance against it unless the 109 pilot has a significant skill advantage, and/or the Spit V pilot makes a huge mistake.
Equal pilot skill, co-e/co-alt the 109F has no chance.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Storch, that spitcopter must have been unpleasant for the pilots being rescued. I'd personally wait for the boat.
that's what Igor though too. :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
Eagler, and all 109F4 fans
The slats have always worked. If I recall they were there in AH1 as well. Most memorably in the Emil, but I do recall having them pop out in all models.
The 109s NOW are way better than they used to be. They got a definite increase in roll rate and manuverability. I used to not be able to fly the F4 or G2 at all. I had no idea what the hubbub was about. When I tried flying them in anything other than auto level I'd spike out and spin to my death. They must have fixed something in AH2. I wasn't the only one complaining of this problem in AH1.
My take on the F4 vs SpitV matchup is that it's no longer a good match. The G-2 vs SpitV is better (more power, just about the same manuverability). I like the F4. It even has some kickass skins. But when I know it won't stack up vs the oponents I'll be facing I try the G2 or a different ride altogether.
I'll need to fly a couple in G2 to verify this...but I'd say the G2 has less chance vs the V then the F does....simply doesnt have anything worthwhile to exploit.
Now the G-2 (and the F) flat out own the pony's D-9's and lala's unless the opposing stick is good. I had no problem at all with a 1 on 2 vs a D-9 and pony. Got the pony and the 190 scooted till a lala came...got the 190 to auger and had no problems with the lala. If the 109 had better ballistics I'd say the G2 would make easy work of the spitV...but the ballistics are bad and the V is far superior in overall handling....
Now in a multiplane enviorment the F isnt all that bad....in the MA clip I posted I had a nice look at the 205...simply not used to the plane or its ballistics so Imissed...and then spent 5-6 seconds "target fixated"...however the earlier part goes along with TK's comments...plane had no problem with the Nikki....and I was just fine with the 205...had I executed better I probably would of been fine with the other birds.
Pilot skill is a big issue....in a multiplane enviornment SA and pilot decision skills play a bigger part then is a 1 vs 1 off an even merge....far as I'm concerend if the 109 loses the merge it loses the fight vs a spit V...further if it doesnt capitalize on that intitial advantage in 15 seconds or so...it loses the fight...and if it wiggles out of the jam and forces an overshoot....and misses the shot...it wont get another one.
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The G-2 can handle the Spit V easily IMO, its climb rate is around 800+fpm better at most altitudes and it holds a 27mph speed advantage on the deck.
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Originally posted by Grits
The G-2 can handle the Spit V easily IMO, its climb rate is around 800+fpm better at most altitudes and it holds a 27mph speed advantage on the deck.
Avoid it...or kill it. Truthfully I dont think any plane in the set handles a spit V easily. The G2 is much less stable...its going to bleed E compared to the spit V. It doesnt have the raw power the G10 does to dominate the verticals completely. The G-2 is myfavorite 109 by far...but I think the spit V still has an edge....however the G2 does have a greater ability to pick the fight or deny engagement. However it has the same guns ballistics and less pure turn capability...so in my mind it has an even lower hit probability...maybe the potato gun option is a +...least ifyouhit the sucker it'll go boom:)
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You're thinking of the G-6, which is totally in a different class. The G-2 is more like the F-4 in handling, but with more raw power (better speed/climb) and only slightly worse handling (I barely notice it, but I notice it).
EDIT: I say you're thinking of the G-6 because the G-2 doesn't have the 30mm option. It has same armament as F-4, 1 MG151/20 in the nose and 2 peashooters, optional gondolas, and rack mounted stuff.
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http://www.geocities.com/s0da72/ (http://www.geocities.com/s0da72/)
At one point I was gathering up plane data, but I hate doing that since it takes forever... But I did gather some data on the 109f and spitI...
You'll need sun's JRE 1.4.0 higher installed to view/use it.
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Originally posted by humble
Avoid it...or kill it. Truthfully I dont think any plane in the set handles a spit V easily. The G2 is much less stable...its going to bleed E compared to the spit V. It doesnt have the raw power the G10 does to dominate the verticals completely.
OK, you are right, what I should have said is at least the G-2 has something to work with, where the F-4 doesnt really.
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Originally posted by Krusty
You're thinking of the G-6, which is totally in a different class. The G-2 is more like the F-4 in handling, but with more raw power (better speed/climb) and only slightly worse handling (I barely notice it, but I notice it).
EDIT: I say you're thinking of the G-6 because the G-2 doesn't have the 30mm option. It has same armament as F-4, 1 MG151/20 in the nose and 2 peashooters, optional gondolas, and rack mounted stuff.
Actually was thinking of the G-2...since I never use the potato gun I wasnt sure. Based on my F4 time I think the handling issue is moot. The F4 simply isnt gonna hang with the spitV so the G2 wont. The extra power will help but the G2 driver has to be a better stick by a pretty fair margin (I'll grap one in Da later and double check). I simply dont think the 109 is docile enough...p40/205/ki-61 all much much better on the edge now IMO.
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The Spit9 out climbs the 109F too, did it time and time again last night.
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I'd expect the spit IX to....
But not the V...way back when I was a trainer I got in a pissing match with one of the 109 drivers...we fought a true "bad blood" duel in the TA (back when it had real bullets before DA). Anyway I finally beat him after a suprisingly good fight. Basically he doubled me on the merge and proceeded to stomp on my head for a good 10 minutes. Only thing that saved me was I had 6 months of being a flying target drone and my evasives were really dialed in...caught him with a laser tag finally and let him bleed on out:).
He lost the fight but won the argument....109F certainly could handle a spitV 1 vs 1 back then. The V is now so close to the IX I think your really flying almost the same fight...so G6 is marginal even. I'd say the G10 controls fight totally...I'd prob take a G10 with gondolas vs a spitty 1 on 1 if I had to fly a 109...
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Yup, its too bad too because like I said, the 109F vs Spit V matchup used to be the best in the game IMO. The G-2 though, is the next best 109 after the G-10 IMO, the G-6 is just a P-I-G pig. The G-2 at least has 7-800 fpm climb and nearly 30mph advantage to work with against the Spit V where the F-4 doesnt.
Like humble said, in the MA it comes more down to pilot skill, SA, and decision making ability, the 109F can perform very well against a whole aray of planes. In a duel format its got trouble.
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Originally posted by Grits
Yup, its too bad too because like I said, the 109F vs Spit V matchup used to be the best in the game IMO. The G-2 though, is the next best 109 after the G-10 IMO, the G-6 is just a P-I-G pig. The G-2 at least has 7-800 fpm climb and nearly 30mph advantage to work with against the Spit V where the F-4 doesnt.
Like humble said, in the MA it comes more down to pilot skill, SA, and decision making ability, the 109F can perform very well against a whole aray of planes. In a duel format its got trouble.
I've got a clip from last night, me vs Skyrock again...F4 vs V...I thought I had him....he thought I had a chance and nada. He said he thought I flew a perfect merge (now you have to put that in context...to some guys his and my "perfect" may be corn chowder) and he just dragged me out behind the barn and bent me over the woodpile. Needless to say I put the POS in the barn and on with my bidness. Simply overmatched given my skill level...
bout 30 min later flew 1 vs Blixen (he in F6F me in spitcopter)...he totally waxed me on the merge...I couldnt even find the bastid:o ) and I still got him...
You can find a hundred places on this BBS I've said I dont care what you fly what alt you have you still have to come get me and kill me. I might have to put an asterick on that:)...the more I get back into the DA the more obvious the spits advantages are...now in the MA (or CT I'd guess) its less of an issue.
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Thought you gents might be interested in these numbers regarding the Spit LF V with +18 boost, vs the Spit FIX which is what the AH bird is supposed to be. These are real Spit numbers btw not the AH numbers.
Keep in mind the alts you are fighting in AH, which at least for me are under 10K
Spit LFV 4000 feet. Top speed 350 mph
Spit FIX 4000 feet Top Speed 326 mph
Spit LFV 8000 feet Top speed 348 mph
Spit FIX 8000 feet Top Speed 344 mph
Time to climb
Spit LFV 8000 feet 1 minute 45 seconds
Spit F IX 8000 feet 2 minutes 20 seconds.
Now note the LFIX numbers
Spit LFIX 4000 feet Top speed 364 mph
10000 feet (didnt note 8K) Top Speed 370 MPH
Now note the climb to 10K 2 minutes 6 seconds. The LFIX went to 10K faster then the FIX could get to 8K.
As you can see the FIX was not a better bird at the alts we fight in AH.
Bring the LFIX to AH and the Spit V will disappear, but for now the Spit LFV is by far the better bird for the AH Spit driver because we're not fighting at 25K
Peformance for the LFV fell off dramatically above 12K whereas the Spit FIX improved greatly.
SO! Lets get HTC to give us an LFIX and we can lose both the V and the FIX :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by soda72
I always hate arguing whether or not it's model accurately, I just don't know enough about it to make that kind of claim. But IMO since the f4 isn't a good match anymore I would say leave the spitv out of CT setups. (or put it in the back fields like they did with this setup)
I'm not sure that's a great reason Soda, The KI-84 is a really tough match-up for both the f4U and the F6-F - does that mean it gets left out ?
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Originally posted by Redd
I'm not sure that's a great reason Soda, The KI-84 is a really tough match-up for both the f4U and the F6-F - does that mean it gets left out ?
I would say it's more like "unreasonable match" up than a "tough match up"... With all things equal one mistake and the 109f is dead. This is also aggravated by low CT numbers. If the arena numbers are out of wack you can have 2 or more spits attacking a single 109f, which is way to much to handle for the avg pilot. No one is going to play target for the spitcopter for very long. Keep the plane sets competitive whether its historically accurate or not, if the g2, and g6 is available then having spitv is not as bad.... but only having the 109f agianst the new spitv is no fun at all...
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Originally posted by soda72
I would say it's more like "unreasonable match" up than a "tough match up"... With all things equal one mistake and the 109f is dead. This is also aggravated by low CT numbers. If the arena numbers are out of wack you can have 2 or more spits attacking a single 109f, which is way to much to handle for the avg pilot. No one is going to play target for the spitcopter for very long. Keep the plane sets competitive whether its historically accurate or not, if the g2, and g6 is available then having spitv is not as bad.... but only having the 109f agianst the new spitv is no fun at all...
Ok - my last post on this :)
I still say the Spit V is no more of harder matchup for the german planes than the niki and probably the KI-84 is for the blue planes, in a 1-1 co-e coalt duelling type fight.
I think through a couple of fun sessions with TK and VWE , I may have been able to prove this point.
Anyway keep leaving it out , I don't give a toss , ;)
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I agree with you Redd. I dont think it should be left out of any sets, I'm more lamenting the great fight that the Spit V vs 109F used to be more than anything else.
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Guppy we DON'T have the LFV in AH. We have a V that's got a rare later-war engine. There's a difference between LFV and FV. We just have a way-to-powerful FV. That probably out performs the LFV lol!!
Edit never mind you didn't say we HAD it. You were saying lose both spits for the LFIX. Mis-read your post.
I think we need more variety. The SpitV should be for early matches and the IX for mid war matches. Making just 1 would unbalance any CT setup you might ever want.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Guppy we DON'T have the LFV in AH. We have a V that's got a rare later-war engine. There's a difference between LFV and FV. We just have a way-to-powerful FV. That probably out performs the LFV lol!!
Edit never mind you didn't say we HAD it. You were saying lose both spits for the LFIX. Mis-read your post.
I think we need more variety. The SpitV should be for early matches and the IX for mid war matches. Making just 1 would unbalance any CT setup you might ever want.
Actually I believe it is an LFV. I think you are referring to the Merlin 50M. The numbers are from a 1943 trial with this engine and seemed to explain what we're seeing as it was optimized for low alt and +18 boost.
So I think what it should be in the end is the Spitfire FVb that was the mainstay of Fighter Command in 41-42 and the Spitfire LFIX that was the most produced of the Spit IX variants covering 43-45. Throw in the Spit I we have to cover 39-40 and we're in business :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Guppy35
So I think what it should be in the end is the Spitfire FVb that was the mainstay of Fighter Command in 41-42
Which is what we had with the old 12+ boost version I think. It makes no difference in the MA, but the Spit V we have now is really out of place in a '41-'42 CT planeset, its a '43-'44 plane.
Its odd to me that we have the best (and last) version of the Spit V from '43 and we have (from what I gather) a kind of mix-matched IX that is also from '43ish but is the worst performing IX. It seems like we need a worse performing V (a '41-'42 appropriate plane) and a better version of the IX than we have now.
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But I recall Wotan mentioning that our Bf109F-4 runs at 1.42ata too - which was not sanctioned in 1941 when the F-4s fought SpitVs over the channel.
Thus, its a fair matchup. In AH1 we had a 12+ boost derated, original '41 SpitV pitted against a 1.42 ara Bf109F-4.
(Or at least, that's what I figured from Wotan)
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Yup, I remember that too. Hmm, guess the 109F just sucked then. :)
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Originally posted by humble
Flew a couple of hops in the DA in 109E vs Skyrock in SpitV. No question he's got a better set of merges than I do....but we both came away thinking the 109E (in my hands at least) has zippo chance vs a spit V. So if you can take on a well flown spit V in one your alot better than I am....
Nothing stands a chance against a SpitV in the DA. A good flown Spit will always win the DA head on merge. In the MA it is different. Merges are not always head on, 10ft of the deck, at equal speeds, the fear of the HO shot is there, the unsertenty of what the other guy is going to do, etc. Dont know mach about the Es but I tried the F4 the last couple of days. I killed spits and NIKs as easyly as they killed me, in turn fights.
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The 109 has a chance if pilot skill is far enough apart. But against any of the real good "duelists" I dont see how. If you contrast the "phish" fights its pretty telling. In spitty on spitty duels (probably 5 or 6) we went from my getting wax on the merge to being "in the hole" to my "losing" the bird to "better". Actually an awful lot of progress but far far from being back where I want to be.
Now in the spit vs 109 it went from poor planning (E opener) to pilot error to victory to "domination" in 5 fights vs a far superior pilot. I couldnt even lay a 20mm on him in 5 hops spit vs spit....but by the end of 5 hops with him in the 109 he was nuetered from the merge on last two.
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as much the plane as it is the ammo
one ping from spit and your dead - normal
one ping death from 109f - rare/if ever
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Originally posted by Eagler
as much the plane as it is the ammo
one ping from spit and your dead - normal
one ping death from 109f - rare/if ever
Not trying to deffend Spits cause it is true, a couple of pings from 600+ at the right spot and you are gone, but, it is posible with the F. I got an LA7 last night with a single ping on the canopy. Its just harder to hit.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Nothing stands a chance against a SpitV in the DA.
Fear Wadke's F6F...GHEEESH lol:p