Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: oboe on April 27, 2005, 06:19:07 AM
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Still not caught and brought to justice. Why?
I'm starting to wonder if the top guys really want him caught after all. What is the connection between Bush and the Bin Laden family again? Why is it that when all other air travel was grounded on 9/11, he supposedly did the Bin Laden family a favor and let them fly out of the country?
Anybody else besides me still interested in catching this mass murdering terrorist?
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Finding a 6'5" Saudi dragging a dialysis machine thru the mountains is hard work.
(http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bushgolfing_1.jpg)
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4 years. I have to think if they wanted him caught he'd be caught by now. Look at how quickly they got Saddam.
Was their ever a more heinous crime committed against the U.S. by a non-military figure? Seriously, was there, in terms of loss of life, dollar cost of actual damages and economic damages? I don't think so.
So why is Bush so much more concerned about privatizing Social Security than catching the perpetrator of the most successful terrorist attack ever against the U.S.?
Why I am the only guy on this board to keep bringing up the OBL "manhunt"?
Why has press coverage on him virtually disappeared?
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Originally posted by oboe
Why has press coverage on him virtually disappeared?
Michael Jackson.
The press goes with the juice.
It doesn`t have to be the most important .
Most people have the attention span of gnat when it comes to important things in the news. The press just goes with whatever they can squeeze the most sensationalism from. Small matters such as importance, relevance and truth have never stood in their way nor is it a big factor.
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Originally posted by oboe
Still not caught and brought to justice. Why?
I'm starting to wonder if the top guys really want him caught after all. What is the connection between Bush and the Bin Laden family again? Why is it that when all other air travel was grounded on 9/11, he supposedly did the Bin Laden family a favor and let them fly out of the country?
Anybody else besides me still interested in catching this mass murdering terrorist?
This bait stinks
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If our Govts weren't wasting time and money trying to re stabilise a country we de stabilised by going to war on, we might have been able to properly go after the real threat.
Perhaps if we'd left old boogie man Sadam for a bit and spent time going after the real terrorists Osama might be history. Mind you some other nut would've just taken up the cause.
The Iraq war is an expensive diversion and solved nothing.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
The Iraq war is an expensive diversion and solved nothing.
It prolly got Bush elected again.
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Originally posted by oboe
4 years. I have to think if they wanted him caught he'd be caught by now. Look at how quickly they got Saddam.
Was their ever a more heinous crime committed against the U.S. by a non-military figure? Seriously, was there, in terms of loss of life, dollar cost of actual damages and economic damages? I don't think so.
So why is Bush so much more concerned about privatizing Social Security than catching the perpetrator of the most successful terrorist attack ever against the U.S.?
Why I am the only guy on this board to keep bringing up the OBL "manhunt"?
Why has press coverage on him virtually disappeared?
As if working on other things somehow stops the search for Osoma?
If Bush has done nothing but search for Osoma, he would get just as much flack from his detractors for doing nothing but searchig for osoma.
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Actualy Nilson, AKA viking boy!
I think it was the ONE thing that kept him from having a TRUE landslide.
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Sigh,
Because he is currently most likely in Iran at present. You know, the big nasty Islamic theocracy with nukes immediately to the West of Afghanistan that the USA is definitely, most assuredly not allowed to go "warmongering" in or the EU and everyone else will hate them even more (if that is possible).
Darned if ya do and double dog darned if ya don't...
- SEAGOON
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Apologies for the Michael Moore reference, I was hoping someone besides MM knew something about his claim re the Bin Ladens being whisked out of the country by executive order on the day of the disaster.
Bush, SS, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, and pushing our brand of democracy on the world aside, I do not understand how anyone who really loves this country does not stand up everyday and insist that Osama Bin Laden be caught and brought to justice.
How can you stand it that this despicable man is still evading capture? Its disgusting. It makes us look weak and incompetent - or worse.
I don't want him killed; I want him in a 4x8 cell at Gitmo for the rest of his earthly life. And I mean yesterday!
I think there must be a huge story lurking beneath Bush's flip-flop on catching OBL at any cost and not really caring where he is.
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Originally posted by oboe
4 years. I have to think if they wanted him caught he'd be caught by now. Look at how quickly they got Saddam.
Was their ever a more heinous crime committed against the U.S. by a non-military figure? Seriously, was there, in terms of loss of life, dollar cost of actual damages and economic damages? I don't think so.
So why is Bush so much more concerned about privatizing Social Security than catching the perpetrator of the most successful terrorist attack ever against the U.S.?
Why I am the only guy on this board to keep bringing up the OBL "manhunt"?
Why has press coverage on him virtually disappeared?
Oboe, think of it as the search for a cure to cancer. if the cure becomes available, would we need to have all these fundraisers for cancer research?
same deal in Iraq, like the dude jumped out of his car surrounded by US forces...and escapes??? get real.
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Originally posted by oboe
I think there must be a huge story lurking beneath Bush's flip-flop on catching OBL at any cost and not really caring where he is.
What do you consider the odds of getting a good theory outta this board oboe?
OBL in Iran now?? What a bunch of bs.. Obviously he is constantly moving to the next country he feels america wants to bomb.. Makes perfect sense.. What a puppet..
As if working on other things would stop the search Gt? What proof have you there is a search for OBL?? By that I mean recent proof?? By that I mean last 2 years proof..
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sigh,
Because he is currently most likely in Iran at present. You know, the big nasty Islamic theocracy with nukes immediately to the West of Afghanistan that the USA is definitely, most assuredly not allowed to go "warmongering" in or the EU and everyone else will hate them even more (if that is possible).
Darned if ya do and double dog darned if ya don't...
- SEAGOON
Makes perfect sense.. Lets invade Iran now and kill 10s of thousands just to let OBL get away again.. Smart thinking man! Those damn EU people keeping the good american down!
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I want him caught as much as anyone.
I want him dead though. His trying him would be a fiasco.
Still I do not live in a dream world were moore has any credibility or that magical though by bush can bring osoma in.
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so long as he is out there bush has his war on terror. it was never really about terrorists for these people. nor was it a spark that caused our leadership to reevaluate disasterous and expensive foriegn policies...it only served to justify an
unthinkable agenda.
and dont think for a minute that there arent people plying the bush's with thier knowledge of thier activities either...
one would assume that osama has much knowledge that the government never wants to see the light of day.
its called slieght of hand. its very effective.
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osama died at tora bora, it's kept secret so osama will not be a martyr, also as long as AQ thinks he is alive they will try to contact him and be caught.
PS, this is top secret so do not pass it on. shhhhh
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I want him caught as much as anyone.
I want him dead though. His trying him would be a fiasco.
Still I do not live in a dream world were moore has any credibility or that magical though by bush can bring osoma in.
Not sure we'd want to kill him and thus elevate him to martyrdom in the Islamic world. I think lifetime incarceration and forcing him to work cleanup crew in a pork slaughterhouse would be fitting however. As far as I know, if we capture him, we can classify him as an enemy combatant and then lock him away for the duration without a trial. At least until the Democrats return to power, anyway. They'd probably want to give him a trial.
I think capturing him should've been less difficult than capturing Saddam was. I think you guys may be right - the powers that be are in better shape not finding him. Or at least they think that. Or thought that, but now its too late if he's in Iran.
Guess I gotta give props to the guy. He hit us square in the face and now it looks like he got away with it.
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Originally posted by rpm
Finding a 6'5" Saudi dragging a dialysis machine thru the mountains is hard work.
Actually it is believed now that the dialysis/kidney disease is untrue.
You said it 88.
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Can anyone point to a world-level political entity that's not corrupt to any degree?
Asinus asinum fricat.
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Originally posted by oboe
Still not caught and brought to justice. Why?
I'm starting to wonder if the top guys really want him caught after all. What is the connection between Bush and the Bin Laden family again? Why is it that when all other air travel was grounded on 9/11, he supposedly did the Bin Laden family a favor and let them fly out of the country?
Anybody else besides me still interested in catching this mass murdering terrorist?
Geeze OBOE !!
You know it is Clintons fault. Clinton didnt take him out when he had the chance.
Now GW has the whole military over there and cant get him. But that is OK cause GW walks on water:)
<<>>
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He is hard to catch. He was trained to hide by the CIA and they know their business. He has limitless financial and intelligence support from Saudi Arabia and billions of people that worship him.
Thinking that Bush or anyone in the US administraion has anything to gain by keeping him at large is a bit shallow.
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"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
What a difference seven months makes.
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Originally posted by moot
Can anyone point to a world-level political entity that's not corrupt to any degree?
Asinus asinum fricat.
Cigarettes made that duck SMART!
maybe i should unquit....in May 17, 1977 Bush Jr & OBL shared an 8-ball & a puerto rican prostitute
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meaning?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
What a difference seven months makes.
That's because most of the lemmings have a short memory.
(http://daily.greencine.com/archives/mission-accomplished.jpg)
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Makes perfect sense.. Lets invade Iran now and kill 10s of thousands just to let OBL get away again.. Smart thinking man! Those damn EU people keeping the good american down!
Dude,
Ok, let's assume that the guys I am friends with from spec ops are all in the disinformation game as well and that includes keeping their pastor in the dark, or perhaps I'm in on the grand conspiracy to invade "peaceful" countries for oil so we can have our gas prices go through the roof and totally crush approval ratings at home and abroad. Lets take every nutty conspiracy theory the left, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Al Jazeera can dish out for granted. (Well maybe with the possible exception of the "Islamic Terrorism does not actually exist, its just George EvilBush, Helliburton and the Elders of Zion blowing things up" line.) Done.
Ok, what then is your grand master plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism? Please feel free to share it with us. I am sincerely interested.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Dude,
Ok, let's assume that the guys I am friends with from spec ops are all in the disinformation game as well and that includes keeping their pastor in the dark, or perhaps I'm in on the grand conspiracy to invade "peaceful" countries for oil so we can have our gas prices go through the roof and totally crush approval ratings at home and abroad. Lets take every nutty conspiracy theory the left, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Al Jazeera can dish out for granted. (Well maybe with the possible exception of the "Islamic Terrorism does not actually exist, its just George EvilBush, Helliburton and the Elders of Zion blowing things up" line.) Done.
Ok, what then is your grand master plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism? Please feel free to share it with us. I am sincerely interested.
- SEAGOON
I dont follow your first paragraph.. Are you saying you have some sort of inside information not privy to the rest of the population??
Lets start the 2nd part with the question of what you believe were the reasons behind 9/11..
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Don't fret...after a few years of hiding he'll apologize like Khadaffi and be a good guy again.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Sigh,
Because he is currently most likely in Iran at present. You know, the big nasty Islamic theocracy with nukes immediately to the West of Afghanistan that the USA is definitely, most assuredly not allowed to go "warmongering" in or the EU and everyone else will hate them even more (if that is possible).
Darned if ya do and double dog darned if ya don't...
- SEAGOON
The moral flag waving drips with irony considering the track record between the two countries.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
The Iraq war is an expensive diversion and solved nothing.
Somehow I belive it would not be difficult to find thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Kuwaitis and Kurds that would most whole heartedly disagree with this.
Not to mention U.S. citizens such as myself.
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I don't see any reason for him to leave western Pakistan, he's pretty safe there.
And I don't see why a couple of SpecOps guys would know that he is Iran, just because they are SpecOps guys.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Somehow I belive it would not be difficult to find thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Kuwaitis and Kurds that would most whole heartedly disagree with this.
Not to mention U.S. citizens such as myself.
I think he meant that it didnt do anything but increase the number of terrorists.
Henry Waxman, citing official briefings given to congressional aides, said the number of "significant" attacks had risen more than three-fold in a year.
There were about 650 such attacks last year, the congressman said - up from 175 in 2003, a record number at the time.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4488513.stm
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I dont follow your first paragraph.. Are you saying you have some sort of inside information not privy to the rest of the population??
Lets start the 2nd part with the question of what you believe were the reasons behind 9/11..
Dude,
No, I'm not saying that I have any special information. Rather that the members of Special Forces I know who have discussed these things and are tasked with rooting out the bad guys in Afghanistan generally agree that wherever he is, he's not in Afghanistan and that I have never heard a contradiction of the intel community consensus that he is either in:
1) Iran (likely) or
2) Pakistan (less likely)
Option 1 of course puts him totally out of reach of the USA, and option 2 makes him very difficult for the US to find because they aren't officially allowed to operate in Pakistan and have to work with the same indigenous Pakistani security forces that supported and trained and equipped the Taliban and Al-Qaeda during the 90s. Plus the fellow Muslims issue resonates deeply throughout the region. [Read Ahmed Rashid's Taliban for more on the Pakistan/Al Qaeda/Taliban organic link.
As for the 9/11 attack, Al Qaeda's stated reasoning was that this was a long planned operation using sleeper cells in the USA in response to the continued presence of infidel American troops in the Dar-El Islam. Al Qaeda (the base) exists 1) to drive all the infidels from the Saudi Peninsula which is home to the great holy cities of Mecca and Median, and then 2) to cleanse the entire Dar-El-Islam of infidels and then 3) to continue the holy duty of Jihad until the Dar-El-Harb is subdued and all nations acknowledge the rule of Allah, the primacy of his Prophet, and accept Sharia or Dimmitude.
In this the vision of Osama Bin Laden and most Pan Islamic movements match up which isn't surprising as most draw their inspiration and vision (which OBL has acknowledged) of Hasan Al-Banna who founded the Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwan al-Muslimin) in 1928 in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood whose slogan is "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." was formed to reestablish the Caliphate and complete the work of Jihad, religiously they are Wahabbi Muslims and OBL has acknowledged Al-Banna as his greatest influence. To quote Al-Banna in materials published by the Saudi Gov't and used by Al-Qaeda cells for indoctrination:
"Our task in general is to stand against the flood of modernist civilization overflowing from the swamp of materialistic and sinful desires. This flood has swept the Muslim nation away from the Prophet’s leadership and Koranic guidance and deprived the world of its guiding light. Western secularism moved into a Muslim world already estranged from its Koranic roots, and delayed its advancement for centuries, and will continue to do so until we drive it from our lands. Moreover, we will not stop at this point, but will pursue this evil force to its own lands, invade its Western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal, and there will be no more 'persecution’ and all religion will be exclusively for Allah….”
This link between Al-Qaeda and the philosophy of the Muslim brotherhood was recognized by the bipartisan 9/11 commission. Their final report noted:
"…Usama Bin Ladin and other Islamist terrorist leaders draw on a long tradition of extreme intolerance within one stream of Islam (a minority tradition), from at least Ibn Taymiya, through the founders of Wahhabism, through the Muslim Brotherhood, to Sayyid Qutb.That stream is motivated by religion and does not distinguish politics from religion, thus distorting both." (Sayyid Qutb followed Al-Banna and was executed for his role in attempts on the life of President Nasser). The Muslim brotherhood itself was responsible for the assasination of Sadat in 1981. It has played a central role both in Egyptian politics and worldwide attempts to establish parties to mobilize the faithful (the Umma) to fight the infidel West. Some of their most notable successes worldwide being the Taliban, HAMAS, Jamaah Islamiyah, Abu Sayaaf, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and the Chechen Rebels.
That in a nutshell is why the attacks occurred and why they will inevitably continue. As long as non-Muslim nations have a presence in the Dar-El-Islam, and the Western nations are not subdued and Islamicized, they ideologically speaking must continue. You, Dude, are part of their great problem, and you must either convert, submit to Dhimmitude, or die.
So, then, what is your solution?
- SEAGOON
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"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
—Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
That's exactly what I was talking about. Thanks for finding it.
Perhaps its due to the NeoCons who had his ear, who convinced him that this moment in history was the perfect time to establish a permanent U.S. military presence in the oil-rich Middle East?
I still can't think of a more plausible reason. Apologies if we've been down this road before but I am still angry about it.
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Oh No TheDudeVant is pusing his crazy USA hating ideas again..
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It's just a few that are responsible for the 400+ insurgent attacks that occur every week.
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Ok man.. was just making sure we were not attacked because they are jealous of us and our freedoms.. Although I have not heard a single thing about how the terrorist will convert us or we must die.. Never knew that was part of the equation..
My best solution is to put a halt to the US military following the interest of corporate america. It has been happening for decades and probably pushing close to a century.. Corporate america in most cases is the reason we as americans are in their lands.
I'm certain there is no cutNdried answer as the problem has grown dramatically and is still increasing in scope.. But my solution I feel is a start..
What I don't get is how you can call yourself a paster/preacher/man of god and be able to condone military actions such as invading Iran and the killing of thousands of your brethern?
When jesus spoke of love your brother, what qualifiers did he put with that statement?
What does violence get you?
What does hate get you?
How can one like yourself claim the love of jesus but then turn your head and say violence should be the answer? How does that work exactly? Strangly, I would bet you could quote roughly 90% of jesus's teachings verbatem...
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Originally posted by rpm
Finding a 6'5" Saudi dragging a dialysis machine thru the mountains is hard work.
(http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/bushgolfing_1.jpg)
That's because.
Bush: It's hard work.
Title: By August 2003 Bush had taken 250 vacation days
Bush: It's hard work.
Bush: ... and it's hard work.
Bush: It is hard work.
Bush: It is hard work.
Title: 27% of his presidency on vacation.
Bush: Hard work.
Bush: You know, It's hard work.
Bush: It's hard work.
Bush: Everybody knows it's hard work.
Bush: We've done a lot of hard work.
Bush: I've seen on the TV screens how hard it is.
Bush: Yeah, I, I, I, I, uh .....
LOL
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by oboe
Why has press coverage on him virtually disappeared?
Oboe its the fault of the left leaning media. :lol
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Before we Invaded Iraq,we did not have a clue where the terrorists were.
Now since we are all up in the middle of it,the terrorists are coming too us,with daily attacks.
Osama will be caught,it is just a matter of time is all,thats 1/2 the problem with the world today we are all in such a big Hurry too get anything done.
don,t forget the most important thing of all
"Buy American" American's!
<<>>:aok
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Originally posted by Raider179
I think he meant that it didnt do anything but increase the number of terrorists.
I don`t belive you know the poster`s habits very well. :D
Henry Waxman, citing official briefings given to congressional aides, said the number of "significant" attacks had risen more than three-fold in a year.
Yep , and I would imagine it will get a lot worse before it runs it`s course. Miracles don`t just happen overnight. It takes time and effort.
If acts such as these were left unchecked, without intervention and dedication, 9/11 would look like a walk in the park.
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you guys didn't hear?
Usama was caught and was to be used as a trophy peice for Bush during the elections.
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Originally posted by john9001
osama died at tora bora, it's kept secret so osama will not be a martyr,
oh yeah, but this works only so far until he starts another terror attack
followed with a briefing video.
this guy have patience an can plan another attack the next 10 years.
In 10 years Bush Jr. left the podium long time ago.
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A very nice showing by the tinfoil helmet brigade, good work
on the turnout.
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Isnt' it Usama Bin Laden? not Osama?
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Suomi Bin Ladin?
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Originally posted by oboe
Still not caught and brought to justice. Why?
I'm starting to wonder if the top guys really want him caught after all. What is the connection between Bush and the Bin Laden family again? Why is it that when all other air travel was grounded on 9/11, he supposedly did the Bin Laden family a favor and let them fly out of the country?
Anybody else besides me still interested in catching this mass murdering terrorist?
This is old bait.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Dude,
Ok, let's assume that the guys I am friends with from spec ops are all in the disinformation game as well and that includes keeping their pastor in the dark, or perhaps I'm in on the grand conspiracy to invade "peaceful" countries for oil so we can have our gas prices go through the roof and totally crush approval ratings at home and abroad. Lets take every nutty conspiracy theory the left, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Al Jazeera can dish out for granted. (Well maybe with the possible exception of the "Islamic Terrorism does not actually exist, its just George EvilBush, Helliburton and the Elders of Zion blowing things up" line.) Done.
Ok, what then is your grand master plan for dealing with Islamic terrorism? Please feel free to share it with us. I am sincerely interested.
- SEAGOON
Dude you have spec op guys that tell you secrets?
:lol
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(http://koti.mbnet.fi/fishu/temp/binladenspotted.jpg)
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"http://koti.mbnet.fi/fishu/temp/binladenspotted.jpg
I knew it was all a Finnish plot. :mad:
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I don't think theres a conspiracy at all.
Ole GW couldn't even tell us where Iraq was let alone spell it. He probably thought it was a province of Afgahanistan and sent the boys in there to get Osama ad his brother Saddam!
"Oh wait you mean they aint brothers? That Saddam guy is nothing to do with Osama? I aint listnin he's a Muslim aint he? Evil axis WMD terrorist training camps blah blah blah. Oil? War boys Yeeha"
Nope the War in Iraq is happening because the guy is plain dumb and will do what ever his advisors want him to do.
Oh jees how dumb does that make Mr Blair? Following an idiot into a war that we are never going to win!
:lol :lol :lol
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Originally posted by Silat
Dude you have spec op guys that tell you secrets?
:lol
no no sir!! Its the daughters of the elders of Zion that tell me all the secrets! hehe
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(http://cooler.irk.ru/pic21/2404cnn1.jpg)
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Lol Boroda... nice to have you back :D
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Originally posted by Silat
Dude you have spec op guys that tell you secrets?
:lol
No, I want to be absolutely clear on this, none of the military men in our congregation have ever told me any official secrets or given away any sensitive information. All of them are dedicated and honorable professionals, and I hope you realize that they and their families are daily doing one of the most difficult and unenviable jobs on earth and doing it well all for compensation that doesn't come close to being on par with what is required of them.
The only benefit I have comes from the fact that because I am in the middle of the home of the Special Forces community I get more chances than most people to discuss the non-secret portions of their jobs with them. I also unfortunately occasionally know the names and/or families of the men anonymously listed on the Centcom casualty reports.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
All of them are dedicated and honorable professionals, and I hope you realize that they and their families are daily doing one of the most difficult and unenviable jobs on earth and doing it well all for compensation that doesn't come close to being on par with what is required of them.
- SEAGOON
WOW ! Talk about hitting the old proverbial nail on the head.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Ok man.. was just making sure we were not attacked because they are jealous of us and our freedoms.. Although I have not heard a single thing about how the terrorist will convert us or we must die.. Never knew that was part of the equation..
My best solution is to put a halt to the US military following the interest of corporate america. It has been happening for decades and probably pushing close to a century.. Corporate america in most cases is the reason we as americans are in their lands.
I'm certain there is no cutNdried answer as the problem has grown dramatically and is still increasing in scope.. But my solution I feel is a start..
What I don't get is how you can call yourself a paster/preacher/man of god and be able to condone military actions such as invading Iran and the killing of thousands of your brethern?
When jesus spoke of love your brother, what qualifiers did he put with that statement?
What does violence get you?
What does hate get you?
How can one like yourself claim the love of jesus but then turn your head and say violence should be the answer? How does that work exactly? Strangly, I would bet you could quote roughly 90% of jesus's teachings verbatem...
I wish I knew how to reply to all this without writing so much DudeDVant, and please know that I am saying this with gentleness and respect.
Trying to fit everything that happens in Geopolitics into a unified field theory isn't going to work, especially when it comes to issues like the Middle East and the most critical factor in understanding the Middle East: Islam. I understand that you have problems with Captialism, Conservatism, and America but while they are all involved in the Middle East, they aren't the cause of Islamic terrorism or Jihad and simply retreating or taking the Spanish option and attempting to surrender outright will not make Islamic Terrorism go away. If my time reading Arabic History in University taught me anything, it was that nothing save a fundamental change in the religious and political (because in Islam they are integerally connected) make-up of that region will end the Jihad.
I'd strongly encourage you to read some Islamic source materials, including what these groups themselves proclaim to be their philosophical underpinnings and trace the connections they themselves acknowledge. I'd also encourage you to read some scholarly analyses like Faith and Power, Islam Unveiled, and Fregosi's excellent work, Jihad. If you do, I think you'll find the following:
The Islamic world is still smarting to this day at their inability to overcome the Western nations militarily and their inability to subdue what they regard to be "Christendom" (I know Westerners would laugh today at the idea, but they still regard Europe and America to be "Christian nations"). From 611 AD to the almost the middle of the 16th Century, the armies of Islam were an almost unstoppable force, they conquered and subdued the Middle East, Africa, and portions of Europe, Asia, and the Pacific Rim and were well on their way to achieving the Quranic vision of a world-wide "Dar-El-Islam" when they were stopped first in France, and then gradually rolled back in Europe (keep in mind though, that they almost took Vienna in 1683)
Since that time they have been rolled back, the Caliphate (a necessary component of Islam) has been eliminated, and the West has been dominant even in their own lands. This has produced a deep seated resentment against secularism and the West that was fired into action with the end of Colonialism and the rise of Islamic brotherhoods committed to finishing the work given to the faithful by the prophet. They see accomodationist regimes in the middle east as standing in the way of the fulfillment of that vision, hence the number of assassinations targeting "secular" Arabic leaders.
One quick way of showing that America isn't the root problem is by examining Holland. Film Maker Theo Van Gogh, a liberal was killed by a Morroccan immigrant associated with an Islamic terrorist group because he made a documentary exposing the plight of women under Islam. Van Gogh was a liberal and hardly a supporter of the USA or Israel. Various other Dutch Lawmakers have received death threats, synagogues have been bombed, etc. and none of these problems is on account of the American presence in Iraq nor will they be solved by an American withdrawal.
Now, if you want what the bible teaches about violence, sixth commandment (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/6thpt1.htm) , and how the Christ of the Bible is not the all tolerant pacifistic hippy sage of liberal Christianity (Check out John 2:15-17, Matt. 25:31-46, Rev. 19 for instance) I'm happy to discuss them, but please keep in mind I'm not advocating any mindless campaign of violence. Politically, I am in favor of Democratizing the Middle East, but ultimately I feel the only solution lies in evangelizing the population, which can only happen if Sharia laws which condemn apostates to death and make all missionary activity illegal are replaced by democratic laws protecting religious liberty. You may find the idea hideous, but even the most ardent secularist must admit that if the population of Islamic countries becomes Christian, then the recruiting pool for Islamic terrorist organizations dissappears and the call to Jihad with it.
- SEAGOON
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Convert the heathen?
Bring back the Templars?
(http://home.tiscalinet.de/kostecki/pics/carcassonne_l.jpg)
Let me see now....will it work?.........
Nah!
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Excellent way to dodge the questions seagoon..
You're no different than religious radicles that would bomb us.. You just wear a different insignia on your shirt and cower behind your church. Radical people like you doing and thinking such things in their god's name are the cause of these religious wars.. People just like you.. So keep on preaching it!
IMO you are the poster child for people that would bare false witness talked about in the bible.. Who was it that spoke about that most?? Was it jesus?? pfft!
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Seagoon, are you arguing that the political and economic development of the middle east since the demise of the Ottoman Empire is as it is solely because of Islam and that all western influences can be discounted?
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im on the hunt for osama ur momma
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/842_1113858381_lo40mil.jpg)
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[Some days, like this one, I've got to admit, I'd love to take the Amish approach to Christianity and just retreat from dealing the world entirely (I've always wanted to drive a horse and buggy anyway). But as Christ told the church long ago, we have to be in the world even though, "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Plus the reflection that I once treated Christians and Christ abominably myself and was with Paul "formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man."]
SkyDancer: No, I'm not calling for a renewal of the Crusades, which were after all an attempt to "recapture" the "Holy Lands" after they fell to the Seljuks, I am advocating what is already happening. Christian missionaries going out and laboring for Christ in Muslim lands, sometimes at the cost of their own lives in obedience to the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=Matt%2028:19-20&version1=31) The Templars in adopting a policy of "conversion or the sword" worked against the teaching of Christ not for it and consequently it failed. Christianity is, at its core, about changing hearts through faith in Christ, not stopping them by force.
Momus: No, I am not arguing that a host of factors have not played a role in the development of the modern middle-east.
But I am arguing for what the majority of scholars on both sides of the divide have argued, that Islam is the greatest single factor in shaping the landscape of the modern middle east - even the Arabs admit that, and argue that we don't understand them, because we don't understand Islam.
We in the West (especially today) have a tendency to frame everything in terms of Left and Right, following in the train of the Marxist philosophy of reducing everything to the "political struggle." In the Middle East however, only the most Westernized of Arabs (who are despised as compromisers and sell-outs) think in these terms, and attempts at creating movements there based on Nationalism or Marxism, etc. have generally failed. They flare up and eventually crash, even the most Westernized secular states, like Turkey are in the midst of Islamic revival that is overwhelming and subsuming politics.
What is, for instance, the largest and most influential middle-eastern "international organization?" The OIC - the organization of Islamic states, and its a union based not on Politics or even Geography - Its a union based on RELIGION. You want an example of "Western Arrogance" - try our continuing practice of trying to explain the Middle East in our terms - Political and Economic, rather than THEIRS. Also irritating and mind-boggling to Arabs is the attempt to explain Islam via our Western conception of "faith" (which, post enlightenment is solely religious and deeply personal) as opposed to how Islam is actually framed which is Religious, Corporate, Cultural, and Civil. It is framed to handle all portions of the Human experience, even the political.
DudedVant: I'm curious as to why you think I became a Christian and then a Pastor, who in a nutshell do you believe I am at core?
As to your contention that I'm just the same as the Jihadists who indiscriminately bomb Western civilians, I can recall frequently calling on my congregation to be willing to suffer persecution for their faith, but never once to kill for it. In fact I've preached the following: "So how do we respond to Islam, by killing all the Muslims? No! When Christians wage aggressive wars or attempt to convert by the Sword we are going against the teachings of Christ. The Koran may enshrine the Jihad, but the word of God does not. "
and again I've preached:
But should your reaction should be to hate individual Muslims? Not at all! While we hate the Christ denying lies of Islam, we should remember the words of the Apostle Paul in Titus 3:3-7:
" For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
We too were once just as blind and lost as the Muslims. While they may hate us, we must not return evil for evil but rather, instead we should pray for them and whenever possible we should seek to give them the real Good News of Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Muslim governments have made it almost impossible for Christian missionaries to work in their countries, but every year, thousands of Muslims are coming to the United States. You need to be ready, willing and eager, to share the gospel with them now that God is mercifully bringing them to a place where they can be exposed to it and I would urge you to consider supporting ministries whose focus is not only to Muslims abroad but the growing Muslim community here in America... Christians, stand firm in that faith once for all delivered to the Saints, and Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, regardless of what religion they profess. But do this with gentleness and respect."
BTW What did you think I dodged in my previous answer?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
We too were once just as blind and lost as the Muslims. While they may hate us, we must not return evil for evil but rather, instead we should pray for them and whenever possible we should seek to give them the real Good News of Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Muslim governments have made it almost impossible for Christian missionaries to work in their countries, but every year, thousands of Muslims are coming to the United States. You need to be ready, willing and eager, to share the gospel with them now that God is mercifully bringing them to a place where they can be exposed to it and I would urge you to consider supporting ministries whose focus is not only to Muslims abroad but the growing Muslim community here in America... Christians, stand firm in that faith once for all delivered to the Saints, and Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have, regardless of what religion they profess. But do this with gentleness and respect." [/i]
See this is exactly the kind of thing that makes muslims hate us. You say they are lost and blind because they don't believe what you do. That would piss me off to. They don't want your good news of salvation and they really don't want christians marching around their "holy land". Have respect for someone else's religion. Calling them blind and lost is very disrespectful.
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Raider,
Its about truth claims. The Koran teaches (particularly in the Suras known collectivelly as "The Dinner Table") that both Jews and Christians are spiritually blind and deaf, that if they will not accept Islam they are to be considered the same as "apes and swine" and then goes about systematically contradicting the claims of Christ to be the Son of God, etc. and that they are cursed:
"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!" [9:30]
Finally it orders that they be fought against, and either converted or subjugated and forced to pay a tax for their resistance (the Dhimmi).
As a Christian Pastor, I am called not to teach my opinions, but to shepherd His flock and faithfully convey the teaching of the Bible. I am only called to be an "Ambassador" of Christ as Eph. 6:20 puts it not a legislator, and an ambassador simply makes known the will of the King. I therefore proclaim that all men are by nature fallen, eternally lost and blind outside of Christ but that salvation is freely available through faith in Him Ephesians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%202;&version=46;) , because that is what He proclaimed and told the the Church to proclaim.
I know full well that such exclusivity is distasteful in the post-modern West. And yes I know the majority of listeners everywhere have and will continue to react poorly to the proclamation of the gospel (heck, the listeners of Christ's first sermon were filled with wrath and drove him out of the synagogue and attempted to force him over a cliff, for that matter I myself hated it and didn't want to hear it) but if we really believe this is the good news that saves, it is no mercy not to preach it.
There is a difference between Christians preaching in Muslim nations and Muslims preaching in the West. Over there, it is almost uniformly illegal. In Saudi Arabia for instance, the construction of churches is absolutely banned, missionaries may not legally enter the country, and leaving Islam is a death penalty offense. Over here however, Muslims may freely proclaim Islam, in fact one of the largest teaching centers for Islam in the world is currently in Fairfax, VA. Islam is currently the fastest growing religion in both Europe and America. So you can of course join them in objecting to us evangelizing them, but my friend they are here and they are not impressed by the bitter fruits of secular humanism and they are rapidly converting an equally unimpressed populace which doesn't realize that it is going from frying pan to fire.
- SEAGOON
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I'm curious as to why you think I became a Christian and then a Pastor, who in a nutshell do you believe I am at core?
Obviously you became a christian for the same reasons the other 95% of the population did that was not under immediate threat of death.. You did not want to burn in hell forever.. joking!
I have no idea seagoon and I will not attempt to judge you farther of what type person you are at your core..
both Jews and Christians are spiritually blind and deaf
Sometimes I find this hard to deny.
ultimately I feel the only solution lies in evangelizing the population
They have their religion and like us would fight in order to keep it..
If you had the promise that every single person of the Islam faith would find Christ but with a cost, how many islamic lives would that be worth??
10,000?
100,000??
1,000,000??
all but 2??
You speak of these people following the islam religion very broadly.. Do you feel they all want to bomb us or in the least kill us least we convert to their religion??
From your own words you do not preach death or convert. But would you not agree that many christians in the past have preached and followed through this very idea??
But I am arguing for what the majority of scholars on both sides of the divide have argued, that Islam is the greatest single factor in shaping the landscape of the modern middle east
Much like christainity is probably responsible for much or our landscape? Would you disagree??
Would you say that as christians, we are a less violent society??
My questions avoided:
What qualifiers did jesus put with the statement, love your brother???
What does hate bring?
What does violence bring?
How, from a christian standpoint, can anything be made better with the use of either of these two realities?
What makes you so certain that christianity is the only way to find one's god?? Why does it seem that christians have their god's message pointed right at the islam religion more than other religions of the world?? There are many kinds..
Are the majority of people in the world christians?? Because they are not, does that mean your God of love will damn them all??
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Originally posted by Seagoon
There is a difference between Christians preaching in Muslim nations and Muslims preaching in the West. Over there, it is almost uniformly illegal. In Saudi Arabia for instance, the construction of churches is absolutely banned, missionaries may not legally enter the country, and leaving Islam is a death penalty offense. Over here however, Muslims may freely proclaim Islam, in fact one of the largest teaching centers for Islam in the world is currently in Fairfax, VA. Islam is currently the fastest growing religion in both Europe and America. So you can of course join them in objecting to us evangelizing them, but my friend they are here and they are not impressed by the bitter fruits of secular humanism and they are rapidly converting an equally unimpressed populace which doesn't realize that it is going from frying pan to fire.
- SEAGOON
It's their country, its their laws. You think they are going to hell for not believing in Jesus, They think you are going to hell for not believing in Mohammad and Allah. Religions are a lot more alike than any side wants to admit. You can point out things in the Qu'ran that are bad just as easy as you can point out things in the bible or even the Torah for that matter. Feeling that you are taking the high road and its your "duty" to help them change their beliefs is presumptous and wrong. Let them believe, all major religions are dangerous and have their wacko's. That doesn't mean they are wrong or should have to change beliefs. After all isn't the KKK a Christian-based hate group?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
no no sir!! Its the daughters of the elders of Zion that tell me all the secrets! hehe
Dude I was responding to Seagoon as he mentioned spec ops..
hehe
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Now, if you want what the bible teaches about violence, sixth commandment (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/6thpt1.htm) , and how the Christ of the Bible is not the all tolerant pacifistic hippy sage of liberal Christianity (Check out John 2:15-17, Matt. 25:31-46, Rev. 19 for instance) I'm happy to discuss them, but please keep in mind I'm not advocating any mindless campaign of violence. Politically, I am in favor of Democratizing the Middle East, but ultimately I feel the only solution lies in evangelizing the population, which can only happen if Sharia laws which condemn apostates to death and make all missionary activity illegal are replaced by democratic laws protecting religious liberty. You may find the idea hideous, but even the most ardent secularist must admit that if the population of Islamic countries becomes Christian, then the recruiting pool for Islamic terrorist organizations dissappears and the call to Jihad with it.
- SEAGOON
Please show me the words of Jesus anywhere in the bible. Of course I mean his words directly not what he supposedly said that was written by others.
I dont believe you or anyone has a clue as to who or what Jesus was.
And you want to bring the poor suffering ME people to christ? How about first you stop the Christian fanatics and terrorists in this country before you try to breed them in others?
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How about first you stop the Christian fanatics and terrorists in this country before you try to breed them in others?
What fanatics and terrrorists are you talking about?
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I assume he meant the ones that blow up abortion clinics or assassinate doctors who work at women's health clinics.
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Originally posted by JB88
its called slieght of hand. its very effective.
This really is a bit OT... but why are some of you reluctant to let others know where you are located? It's not like anyone is going to be able to hunt me down by knowing I'm from Florida. :)
Just curious.
Woof
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one word why Osama isn't caught yet:
Goldstein
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
They have their religion and like us would fight in order to keep it..
DudeDVant, They Fight to promote it and pass draconian laws to protect its hegemony, we on the other hand have no "state religion" in the USA and have passed laws to make sure that cannot happen. Its a very different world over there, I don't sense you'd like it much, sure it is your female relations wouldn't.
If you had the promise that every single person of the Islam faith would find Christ but with a cost, how many islamic lives would that be worth??
Actually, I'm not advocating that Muslims die to find Christ. Quite the reverse, I'm advocating that Christians die to save Muslims. If I die in the process of telling the Good News, so be it. " For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it." (Luke 9:24)
You speak of these people following the islam religion very broadly.. Do you feel they all want to bomb us or in the least kill us least we convert to their religion??
Obviously not all of them. Many are nominals, just as most Christians are nominals, some are liberals, some are Sufis, etc. But all theologically conservative Sunnis and Shias are committed to the idea that Islam must eventually be the worldwide religion. Several Arabic Governments, such as that of Saudi Arabia, have officially endorsed that idea and spend literally billions promoting Islam worldwide both by providing arms, Islamic education centers, etc. Oh and the literature they print says we gotta submit or errr... "go." That fact is undeniable.
From your own words you do not preach death or convert. But would you not agree that many christians in the past have preached and followed through this very idea??
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church worked with the magistrate to do so from roughly the 10th century through the 17th. I am not a Roman Catholic, I find this practice ahorrent, and a sad consequence of the unbiblical co-opting of the church under Constantine and Caesaropapism. We had a Reformation back in the 16th century to redress practices like that.
Much like christainity is probably responsible for much or our landscape? Would you disagree??
Well our society still clings to the husk of Christian ethics etc. but with the widespread loss of faith in the Bible we are becoming more secular with every year. Islamic society is far more culturally wed to Islam. For instance, when Muslim Women come here they keep their Hijab on, when our women go there, they must put a hijab on, when Sharia is implemented as it is being in Northern Nigeria, Islamic customs become compulsory. Imagine Dude being forced to wear a Yarmulke or a Turban even though you were neither Jewish nor Arabic.
Would you say that as christians, we are a less violent society??
As Christians? Are we a "Christian society" wouldn't you go balistic if I started claiming that? Is the West less violent? In terms of Crime, no. In fact one of their claims to the superiority of Islam is our widespread drug addiction etc.
My questions avoided:
What qualifiers did jesus put with the statement, love your brother???
Jesus never actually said love your brother (Grk: adelphos) he summarized the two tables of the law with the words " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " And then illustrated the idea of loving your neighbor with the parable of the good Samaritan. IF you really want to know what I sincerely believe about this and show me where I'm wrong, here is what I've publically stated: The Good Samaritan (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/TheGoodSamaritanSermon.htm)
What does hate bring?
What does violence bring?
How, from a christian standpoint, can anything be made better with the use of either of these two realities?
Does violence always involve hate? Has every Christian scholar who has written about Just War theory been wrong? Were the Allies wrong to use violence in defending themselves against the Germans and Japanese and then in liberating Europe and conquering those nations? Was Jesus wrong to praise the faith of a soldier? Should John the Baptist have told the Soldiers who asked him what to do? Stop being soldiers immediately!
What makes you so certain that christianity is the only way to find one's god??
Because that is what Christ taught in the Bible, and I believe the Bible to be the word of God. I know you don't and I can't myself make you do so.
Why does it seem that christians have their god's message pointed right at the islam religion more than other religions of the world?? There are many kinds..
Statistically, Christian missions are far more active outside the 10/40 window (the Islamic world) than inside it. There are for instance, innordinantly more Christian missionaries in South America than in the Nations under Islam. Sharia law makes that inevitable.
Are the majority of people in the world christians?? Because they are not, does that mean your God of love will damn them all??
The Bible teaches that men are born fallen, born in iniquity as David put it, and that the reason we sin is because we are sinners. That is why Christ stressed the importance of being gennethe annothen "born again" or "regenerated" to Nicodemus in John 3 saying "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
We will either believe and be saved or remain as Jesus said, condemned, "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18) I long ago accepted that that was the state I was in, and that if I was to be saved I needed to have my sins forgiven and atoned for, and a righteousness I could never earn for myself imputed to me. And since that time, my entire life has been dramatically different.
I don't know who or even how many are going to heaven, I do know it will be a number impossible to count from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. But that as Christ said, "narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." and regarding heaven "many are called, but few are chosen."
Anywho Dude as a Christian, I don't make car bombs, or teach others to make them, I don't preach politics from the pulpit, just humbly exposit the teaching of scripture, I counsel, I try to guard my flock, and be spent loving and serving them and my family and most of all my savior. On my offtime I fly AcesHigh, hunt during the season, smoke cigars when I can afford them, and read voraciously and write whenever I can. Fomenting Terrorism is not big on my agenda. That in a nutshell really is my life.
- SEAGOON
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news? Bin Laden is Death, hurray
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Originally posted by Elfie
What fanatics and terrrorists are you talking about?
I hope you are kidding..... Do abortion clinic bombings or drs being murdered in the name of religion ring any bells?
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Because that is what Christ taught in the Bible, and I believe the Bible to be the word of God.
I know you don't and I can't myself make you do so.
- SEAGOON
Im sorry to use this one quote out of your whole statement but it shows so much.
Im thinking maybe you and some crusaders could "MAKE" Dude believe:)
This world would be so much better off if everyone kept their bond with their God in their hearts where it belongs.
What other people choose to believe or not believe should be of no concern to anyone.
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Originally posted by Silat
Im sorry to use this one quote out of your whole statement but it shows so much.
Im thinking maybe you and some crusaders could "MAKE" Dude believe:)
This world would be so much better off if everyone kept their bond with their God in their hearts where it belongs.
What other people choose to believe or not believe should be of no concern to anyone.
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Originally posted by Silat
Im thinking maybe you and some crusaders could "MAKE" Dude believe:)
This world would be so much better off if everyone kept their bond with their God in their hearts where it belongs.
What other people choose to believe or not believe should be of no concern to anyone.
WHAT A SHAM.
Forgive me, but I get a little tired of the raging intolerance of the tolerant.
What you are really saying is that evangelical Christians should shut-up while everyone is forced to listen while liberal secular humanists drone on endlessly about what they believe. Not only that, but our children must be forced to listen to what they believe in the school systems and then be graded on their ability to regurgitate it later. People who say, "God should be the measure of all things" are laughed to scorn in the public square by the very same people who instead insist that their opinions should be the measure of all things. ("and ye shall be as gods")
Meanwhile, people who devote their lives to the study of the Bible are told authoritatively about what "Christianity really is" and "who Jesus is" by people whose sole knowledge of the word is the few bits and pieces they've picked up listening to other liberal secular humanists, reading pop-novels, and watching hit pieces on TV. We must all accept your cosmoligical, political, and epistemological presuppositions or we must be silent.
And the naked hypocrisy of it all! Faith must be kept out of the public square we are told, but only if it is that nasty conservative orthodox kind of faith. We will gladly allow the Reverend Jackson, and the Rev Sharpton a hearing and applaud loudly when Al Gore campaigns in liberal churches, oh and if someone with the label clergy wants to preach to us the very opposite of the teaching of the bible and proclaim homosexuality, abortion, and every deviation we can think of to be good and perfectly natural, then we will call them good and tolerant and wise and gladly give them a pulpit to be heard.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Seagoon
WHAT A SHAM.
Forgive me, but I get a little tired of the raging intolerance of the tolerant.
What you are really saying is that evangelical Christians should shut-up while everyone is forced to listen while liberal secular humanists drone on endlessly about what they believe. Not only that, but our children must be forced to listen to what they believe in the school systems and then be graded on their ability to regurgitate it later. People who say, "God should be the measure of all things" are laughed to scorn in the public square by the very same people who instead insist that their opinions should be the measure of all things. ("and ye shall be as gods")
Meanwhile, people who devote their lives to the study of the Bible are told authoritatively about what "Christianity really is" and "who Jesus is" by people whose sole knowledge of the word is the few bits and pieces they've picked up listening to other liberal secular humanists, reading pop-novels, and watching hit pieces on TV. We must all accept your cosmoligical, political, and epistemological presuppositions or we must be silent.
And the naked hypocrisy of it all! Faith must be kept out of the public square we are told, but only if it is that nasty conservative orthodox kind of faith. We will gladly allow the Reverend Jackson, and the Rev Sharpton a hearing and applaud loudly when Al Gore campaigns in liberal churches, oh and if someone with the label clergy wants to preach to us the very opposite of the teaching of the bible and proclaim homosexuality, abortion, and every deviation we can think of to be good and perfectly natural, then we will call them good and tolerant and wise and gladly give them a pulpit to be heard.
- SEAGOON
Nice sermon.
Secularists dont believe I thought? So what is it they are pushing on you?
I didnt mention conserves or libs. Ill say it again. Your faith is for you and you alone. Quit trying to push it down our throats. No one is pushing anything on you. Because others live their lives the way they choose does in no way harm you. Liberals dont force you to be liberal. Turn off the TV if you dont like the show.
If you dont like public school then send your children to a private school that teaches creationism instead of science.
If you dont believe in abortion then dont get one.
If you dont want to be homosexual then dont date your own sex.
And try to educate yourself. People dont choose to be homosexual. Your writings show who is truely intolerant.
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It would look abit silly if i quoted you again Silat, but i agree 100%.
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Originally posted by Silat
And try to educate yourself. People dont choose to be homosexual. Your writings show who is truely intolerant.
Not that I believe you're interested, but the emerging consensus in the Scientific community is that the "Gay Gene" studies were prime example of using bad science to find what you wanted to find:
Is there a Gay Gene? (http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html)
A while back, someone asked me how do you know when Matt. 7:6 applies? And I think I've finally gotten there and probably beyond. With the level of ad hominem argumentation increasing in this thread, I'm finding it more and more difficult to turn the other cheek and not repay evil for evil, and I know myself well enough to know I'm going to end up venting and writing things I'll regret and have to publicly repent of later. So rather than saying those things, I'll heed Paul's Command (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=2%20tim%202:23-26&version1=31) about not quarreling, and depart.
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NARTH
National association for research & therapy of homosexuality ???
wtf seagoon !!!???!!!
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Originally posted by Silat
I hope you are kidding..... Do abortion clinic bombings or drs being murdered in the name of religion ring any bells?
No I wasnt kidding Silat. I was asking a question so I wouldnt have to assume what you meant.
I personally dont believe in bombing abortion clinics or murdering doctors who perform abortions even though I believe that abortions are murder. I do believe those people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
Although there was a significant problem with abortion clinics (prior to 2000) being bombed, set fire to etc. That problem has largely been eliminated. Since 2000 there has been ONE murder/attempted murder of doctors who perform abortions and 16 instances of bombing/arson or attempted bombing/arson. Compare that to the decade of the '90's with 23 murders/attempted murders and 152 cases of bombing/arson or attempts.
If you dont like public school then send your children to a private school that teaches creationism instead of science.
Science vs Creationism? Or should I say Evolution vs Creationism? From a pure scientific stand, both are theories since niether can be proved with scientific facts.
I dont believe Seagoon was trying to force his beliefs down anyones throat. He answered questions put to him by others according to his beliefs.
Why are you so anti-Christian? Why do you hate Christians so much?
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Wow... if found the Dumb, Dumber and Dumber'er thread.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Wow... if found the Dumb, Dumber and Dumber'er thread.
Details please... who is who?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Science vs Creationism? Or should I say Evolution vs Creationism? From a pure scientific stand, both are theories since niether can be proved with scientific facts.
Really.. I mean both theories are equally ridiculous. Evolving from single cell organisms? The proof of evolution is so apparent and logical that it must be false. It is perfectly acceptable to believe in a giant floating entity in the sky, parting waters, and a big boat full of animals who don't poop.....it is just as plausable.
Personally, I happen to know for a fact it was Aliens. :)
Woof
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Originally posted by Seagoon
And the naked hypocrisy of it all! Faith must be kept out of the public square we are told, but only if it is that nasty conservative orthodox kind of faith. We will gladly allow the Reverend Jackson, and the Rev Sharpton a hearing and applaud loudly when Al Gore campaigns in liberal churches, oh and if someone with the label clergy wants to preach to us the very opposite of the teaching of the bible and proclaim homosexuality, abortion, and every deviation we can think of to be good and perfectly natural, then we will call them good and tolerant and wise and gladly give them a pulpit to be heard.
- SEAGOON
Well... why don't we all quit pretending that religion is anything more than a security blanket for the people who can't face the fact that dead is dead and then maybe we can quit killing each other over our differing ideas of who or what the nonexistant super being may be? :rolleyes:
Woof
Hate the sin... not the sinner. And if THAT doesn't work... then make up a new sin and hate that.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Details please... who is who?
Me... all three, for looking at the title and then clicking on it.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Forgive me, but I get a little tired of the raging intolerance of the tolerant.
Man thats sig material!
btw I agree.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Why are you so anti-Christian? Why do you hate Christians so much?
Wow what a hook you throw out.
I am disgusted with all cults.
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Originally posted by Silat
Wow what a hook you throw out.
I am disgusted with all cults.
You hate BW too?
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Man I love how the liberal tolerant, open mind to all cultures and beliefs, go into such a mouth-foaming hate at the mention of religion, as to make a klanner be shocked by it.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Man I love how the liberal tolerant, open mind to all cultures and beliefs, go into such a mouth-foaming hate at the mention of religion, as to make a klanner be shocked by it.
So you found the Pastor Seagoons intolerance to people having the life they choose tolerant?
I dont tolerate those who think other peoples lives need to be changed because they cant mind their own business.
Hypocrites:(
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*inadvertantly blunders into a religion topic and is instantly shredded like a manatee at a boat race*
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Originally posted by Silat
Wow what a hook you throw out.
I am disgusted with all cults.
I wasnt trolling, I was asking what seem to me at least, honest questions.
Since when is Christianity a cult?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Since when is Christianity a cult?
Well... basically christianity is an enormous cult.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I wasnt trolling, I was asking what seem to me at least, honest questions.
Since when is Christianity a cult?
Quit being a trouble maker:)
All religions are cults. Check out the definition of cult.
Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'kult
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
The big ones are just the successful ones.
You keep mentioning Christianity not me:)
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Turn off the TV if you dont like the show.
If you dont like public school then send your children to a private school that teaches creationism instead of science.
If you dont believe in abortion then dont get one.
If you dont want to be homosexual then dont date your own sex.
We could add to this list: If you dont like posts about religion, then dont read them :D
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You keep mentioning Christianity not me
Well this thread has kinda devolved into a discussion about Christianity hasnt it? :p
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3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious;
I do believe that disqualifies all the *Big* religions as cults since they arent considered unorthodox.
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Ive spit out your hook because you are just being silly:)
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Well Iraq sure was an obvious deterant,.... or was that detergent?....I dunno..anyway. Some times the obvious is simply the obvious. The best con jobs and illusions are done right in front of your eyes.
Here's what I think about the last election..
First time shame on you, second time shame on me. ;-)
How do illusions work? Most tricks are so stupid and done so in front of your eyes that you spend more time looking for the trick, then seeing what your seeing.
Here's how I see it.........
In a trick/illusion you have a sheet to hide the elephant. While discribing what the illusion is about, mirrors are swong into place to reflect a landscape in front of the elephants, and the elephant is lead off. This is best done in a cemetrical setting with alike walls, and of course you don't notice anything going on because you think the trick hasn't even started yet, when in fact the trick is already over by the time he stops talking about. The only thing left to do is yank the sheet and whalla, the elephant is gone. ;-) LOL the elephant was gone 4 seconds after he first covered it.
Lets call the sheet WMD/Iraq
Lets call describing the illusion Iraq/Iran
Lets call the elephant Osama
As long as they don't say any different, and act like they believe themselves, and act like they don't hear hecklers, then you spend more time looking for other lies that you miss the big one in front of you.
The problem is you have someone in the stage wings who finally figured out the trick and decided to go looking for the elephant, lets call the lookers England. But by now the trail is cold. And the magician just smiles.
Everyone thinks these big illusions are complicated, they are not, they are usually as simple as your first thought. They are made to look complex but are very elementary. Your first thought is removed by making you think about how he's describing the illusion, placing you in second thought.
Being duped the first time is Bush's fault for not living down the warnings about him.
Being duped the second time is our fault for putting a proven moron back in office for round two of illusions. BUT the only thing that got him re-elected was that tiny percent that didn't want to switch hitters mid war.
Maybe next time we'll have better choices and make smarter decisions as th epeopl responsable for who sits in tha chair.
Osama's family should have be held hostages at gun point, like they are doing to us now. they should have never been allowed to leave,..period.
That's my story and I'm stickin to it ;-)
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Ya I know Silat, I wrote another book, but I was bored. ;-)
~A
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Originally posted by Silat
Nice sermon.
Secularists dont believe I thought? So what is it they are pushing on you?
I didnt mention conserves or libs. Ill say it again. Your faith is for you and you alone. Quit trying to push it down our throats. No one is pushing anything on you. Because others live their lives the way they choose does in no way harm you. Liberals dont force you to be liberal. Turn off the TV if you dont like the show.
If you dont like public school then send your children to a private school that teaches creationism instead of science.
If you dont believe in abortion then dont get one.
If you dont want to be homosexual then dont date your own sex.
And try to educate yourself. People dont choose to be homosexual. Your writings show who is truely intolerant.
....And if a thread is THIS upsetting to YOU because someone is expressing their beliefs and following their calling, YOU can always choose not to read it.
If Seagoon kept his religion to himself and didn`t try to spread the word, he would not be much of an asset to his position.
I applaud him. Takes lots of guts and dedication.
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Originally posted by Silat
Turn off the TV if you dont like the show.
:rofl :rofl :rofl thats amusing
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Originally posted by Jackal1
....And if a thread is THIS upsetting to YOU because someone is expressing their beliefs and following their calling, YOU can always choose not to read it.
If Seagoon kept his religion to himself and didn`t try to spread the word, he would not be much of an asset to his position.
I applaud him. Takes lots of guts and dedication.
Im not upset. I said I was disgusted :)
From what Ive read all he is doing is cloaking his intolerance in his religion.
It doesnt take guts or dedication to spread intolerence in the name of your god.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
:rofl :rofl :rofl thats amusing
I do know how to change the channel. Dont you? :)
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well, bush said in a speech that he is not concerned with bin laden anymore. In my opinion, he is being positioned right now by the CIA, to give the US another 'Pearl Harbor' event to justify the invasion of another oil rich country or 2.
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Originally posted by FT_Animal
Ya I know Silat, I wrote another book, but I was bored. ;-)
~A
And you didnt even address how I am disgusted by the current state of organized religion :)
You might check out the other threads that Im in trouble in:)
Religion would be perfect, if it werent for man:)
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
well, bush said in a speech that he is not concerned with bin laden anymore. In my opinion, he is being positioned right now by the CIA, to give the US another 'Pearl Harbor' event to justify the invasion of another oil rich country or 2.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Silat
Ive spit out your hook because you are just being silly:)
I'm not being silly. Silly is calling the main religions in the world cults. Silly is jumping all over someone who was asked questions and then answers honestly according to his beliefs and calling.
Religion would be perfect, if it werent for man
You can replace the word religion for anything else and that statement is still true.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Not that I believe you're interested, but the emerging consensus in the Scientific community is that the "Gay Gene" studies were prime example of using bad science to find what you wanted to find:
Is there a Gay Gene? (http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html)
A while back, someone asked me how do you know when Matt. 7:6 applies? And I think I've finally gotten there and probably beyond. With the level of ad hominem argumentation increasing in this thread, I'm finding it more and more difficult to turn the other cheek and not repay evil for evil, and I know myself well enough to know I'm going to end up venting and writing things I'll regret and have to publicly repent of later. So rather than saying those things, I'll heed Paul's Command (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=2%20tim%202:23-26&version1=31) about not quarreling, and depart.
NARTH LOL
I rest my case......
Peace be with you Seagoon. We can disagree and remain civil.
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Seagoon, some very well stated stuff in there.
to you for your convictions, even if I don't agree with some of them.
I do agree that fundamentalists (even the scary right wing kind.. wait, that is redundant, isn't it?) have every much the right to publicly speak their point of view on things as ultra left wing liberals.
I actually find Seagoon to be rather refreshing... he is a conservative without the in-your-face-you're-evil-if-you-don't-agree-NUKE-style posting.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I'm not being silly. Silly is calling the main religions in the world cults. Silly is jumping all over someone who was asked questions and then answers honestly according to his beliefs and calling.
You can replace the word religion for anything else and that statement is still true.
So you are just arguing?
You didnt read the definition of CULTS?
Im not going to argue with you about Websters definition of CULTS which defines religions as cults.
You can write Webster if you disagree.
Im sure they would be very interested in your argument.
I didnt jump any higher than anyone else. And he stated opinions in long replies and I answered with mine.
You need to reread the thread.
Done with this thread as its lost its flavor....................... ...
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Originally posted by Silat
So you are just arguing?
You didnt read the definition of CULTS?
Im not going to argue with you about Websters definition of CULTS which defines religions as cults.
You can write Webster if you disagree.
Im sure they would be very interested in your argument.
I didnt jump any higher than anyone else. And he stated opinions in long replies and I answered with mine.
You need to reread the thread.
Done with this thread as its lost its flavor....................... ...
No I am not just arguing. Websters definition clearly uses the term unorthodox to describe cults. The worlds major religions would definately NOT fall under the category unorthodox. You however, are reaching if you think Islam, Budhists, Christians etc are *unorthodox* religions.
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Originally posted by Silat
Im not upset. I said I was disgusted :)
From what Ive read all he is doing is cloaking his intolerance in his religion.
It doesnt take guts or dedication to spread intolerence in the name of your god.
Intolerance would come more fitting your bill so far.
Disgusted? Then follow your own advice.
I am really surprised at this watermelon from you.
Live and learn I guess.
This seems to have really hit a nerve with you. I wonder why?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Intolerance would come more fitting your bill so far.
Disgusted? Then follow your own advice.
I am really surprised at this watermelon from you.
Live and learn I guess.
This seems to have really hit a nerve with you. I wonder why?
You need to reread him and attempt the correct meaning of his post..
His post are of tolerance.
If you dont like public school then send your children to a private school that teaches creationism instead of science.
If you dont believe in abortion then dont get one.
If you dont want to be homosexual then dont date your own sex.
Basically it seems to be he is saying do what you want and allow others to do what they want.. Isn't that the difinition of tollerant?
Oh, you prolly just wanted to chime in for arguments sake no matter that you look like a fool with all the wrong ideas.
lol
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Originally posted by Silat
Dude I was responding to Seagoon as he mentioned spec ops..
hehe
I know man.. I was just making a joke 8)
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Originally posted by Seagoon Actually, I'm not advocating that Muslims die to find Christ. Quite the reverse, I'm advocating that Christians die to save Muslims. If I die in the process of telling the Good News, so be it. " For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it." (Luke 9:24)
But you believe right off they are living in sin. This is a fundamental flaw that I cannont agree with. Just because a man does not 'know christ' in the way you would have does not mean said man does not have a good heart that desires to be without sin.. IMO somewhere along the line the love of jesus was tainted with the salesmanship of man..
Obviously not all of them. Many are nominals, just as most Christians are nominals, some are liberals, some are Sufis, etc. But all theologically conservative Sunnis and Shias are committed to the idea that Islam must eventually be the worldwide religion. Several Arabic Governments, such as that of Saudi Arabia, have officially endorsed that idea and spend literally billions promoting Islam worldwide both by providing arms, Islamic education centers, etc. Oh and the literature they print says we gotta submit or errr... "go." That fact is undeniable.
Replace Islam with christianity in this last paragraph and tell me it still does not hold true. Of course Islam has it's share of fanatics, but you have to agree so does christianity.. I don't see a difference.. I only see you on one side of the fence preaching your cause describing people on the other side of the fence preaching theirs.. We are all children of god..
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church worked with the magistrate to do so from roughly the 10th century through the 17th. I am not a Roman Catholic, I find this practice ahorrent, and a sad consequence of the unbiblical co-opting of the church under Constantine and Caesaropapism. We had a Reformation back in the 16th century to redress practices like that.
What is this? A description of christian fanatics?? Much like the fanatics of Islam you've describe?
As Christians? Are we a "Christian society" wouldn't you go balistic if I started claiming that? Is the West less violent? In terms of Crime, no. In fact one of their claims to the superiority of Islam is our widespread drug addiction etc.
I would and do consider the US a christain society. I don't get balistic very often my friend.
As you have stated here, we as christians have a higher crime rate. With this in mind would you concede that perhaps in some instances Islam could be a good thing?
Jesus never actually said love your brother (Grk: adelphos) he summarized the two tables of the law with the words " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " And then illustrated the idea of loving your neighbor with the parable of the good Samaritan. IF you really want to know what I sincerely believe about this and show me where I'm wrong, here is what I've publically stated: The Good Samaritan (http://www.providencepca.com/sermons/TheGoodSamaritanSermon.htm)
Symatics? Are you attempting to say that Jesus did not preach love for one another?
Love was the primus of the Jesus I understand..
Does violence always involve hate? Has every Christian scholar who has written about Just War theory been wrong? Were the Allies wrong to use violence in defending themselves against the Germans and Japanese and then in liberating Europe and conquering those nations? Was Jesus wrong to praise the faith of a soldier? Should John the Baptist have told the Soldiers who asked him what to do? Stop being soldiers immediately!
WW2 was not fought for religous reasons. You have advocated the evangelizing(sp) of the Islam population.. That is religous based..
Perhaps you could show me of a modern example of violence without hate.. Of course there are different levels of hate..
The Bible teaches that men are born fallen, born in iniquity as David put it, and that the reason we sin is because we are sinners. That is why Christ stressed the importance of being gennethe annothen "born again" or "regenerated" to Nicodemus in John 3 saying "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
This would have to be particular to your version of born again. Perhaps born again is simply having love for your fellow man in your heart and the disire to do the right thing..
I cannot believe that throughout time all the people that have died without reading the bible would be dammed forever to hellfire/brimeston by a loving god..
Seagoon, I notice a picture of a child as your avitar.. Is that your son?? If so, if one day your son grows to disown you as his father, could you damn him to death because of such a thing for eternity? Do you consider yourself a loving father?
Anywho Dude as a Christian, I don't make car bombs, or teach others to make them, I don't preach politics from the pulpit, just humbly exposit the teaching of scripture, I counsel, I try to guard my flock, and be spent loving and serving them and my family and most of all my savior. On my offtime I fly AcesHigh, hunt during the season, smoke cigars when I can afford them, and read voraciously and write whenever I can. Fomenting Terrorism is not big on my agenda. That in a nutshell really is my life.
I hear you.. You sound like a good soul. I would argue that roughly 90% of the Islam population carry on life much the same way.
I just cannot understand how a person can take man made writing/teachings and consider them the only possible truth. The only thing certain is nothing is certain..
Because you know the name of your god, does not mean that god could not be another's god of a different name.. Does the bible not state that the christian god has many names?? Is there only one true name given for the christian god?
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But you believe right off they are living in sin. This is a fundamental flaw that I cannont agree with. Just because a man does not 'know christ' in the way you would have does not mean said man does not have a good heart that desires to be without sin.. IMO somewhere along the line the love of jesus was tainted with the salesmanship of man..
According to the Bible everyone born in this world was born with a sinful nature. This is because Adam and Eve sinned by eating the wrong fruit from the wrong tree. God only handed out one rule after he created Adam and Eve and that was to NOT eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
As far as the rest goes you'll have to ask Seagoon and he left this thread never to return. Try contacting him through his sig.
Btw Silat, I realized that Websters definition isnt a list of qualifications, each line taken separately and isnt dependent on the others. What the heck was I thinking? :lol
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Originally posted by Elfie
According to the Bible everyone born in this world was born with a sinful nature. This is because Adam and Eve sinned by eating the wrong fruit from the wrong tree. God only handed out one rule after he created Adam and Eve and that was to NOT eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
Is why I wrote living in sin instead of born in sin.. We are born in sin but that does not mean we live in sin..
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Dude -
As I stated, I will not be posting any more debate or argumentation in this particular thread.
If you (or anyone else for that matter) have a question or questions you want to ask or engage me on, I'll be happy to answer them in a new thread or privately if you prefer. I cannot of course assure you that you will be happy with the answers.
Ok, and that really was my last post on this thread.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Intolerance would come more fitting your bill so far.
Disgusted? Then follow your own advice.
I am really surprised at this watermelon from you.
Live and learn I guess.
This seems to have really hit a nerve with you. I wonder why?
Jackal I was trying to point out that we are all entitled to live the way we want. But not entitled to stop others from their choices. If I stated it so that you think Im intolerant then I miswrote.
But I am intolerant of those that want to take away others freedoms to choose.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
We are born in sin but that does not mean we live in sin..
I do :D
Hell + Handbasket = SkyWolf
Woof
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
You need to reread him and attempt the correct meaning of his post..
His post are of tolerance.
Basically it seems to be he is saying do what you want and allow others to do what they want.. Isn't that the difinition of tollerant?
Oh, you prolly just wanted to chime in for arguments sake no matter that you look like a fool with all the wrong ideas.
lol
Yea, thanks there professor.
Your ideas are so cutting edge. :D