Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gixer on April 30, 2005, 06:21:38 PM
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Just curious does this get much coverage in the US or does the media/government prefer to keep it low key and quiet?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Just curious does this get much coverage in the US or does the media/government prefer to keep it low key and quiet?
...-Gixer
How do we know what the media/government prefers?
It's pretty sad that the US congress denied funding for the war and allowed the communists to overrun the free people of S Vietnam.
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It's over?
You sure??
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It was all over CNN headline news this morning. You couldn't get away from the coverage on that channel. Dunno about the major networks, I rarely watch anything on the pablum and diarhea channels anymore.
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hmmm i havent heard anything from vietnam except the glorious take-over of corrupt south vietname...
btw does (unified) Vietnam today resemble that of N. Korea? are they breaking any "human rights" laws?
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Originally posted by Gixer
Just curious does this get much coverage in the US or does the media/government prefer to keep it low key and quiet?
...-Gixer
Yea, it was all over the news along with the expected comments from the commies such as how well VN is doing since it was "unified" and how great the people thought it was now.
Average income per household---$500.00 to $550.00 per year.
The only thing missing was a comment on the up and coming tour bus vacation packages to be implemented by Zulu.
:D
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Originally posted by 1K3
btw does (unified) Vietnam today resemble that of N. Korea? are they breaking any "human rights" laws?
No,but the "Domino Effect" is going to happen any day now. :lol
Must be quite disgruntling for some to see how well Vietnam has done on it's own after decades of war.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
[BMust be quite disgruntling for some to see how well Vietnam has done on it's own after decades of war.
...-Gixer [/B]
yeah, do you know anyone who escaped VN?
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Originally posted by NUKE
yeah, do you know anyone who escaped VN?
Escaped Vietnam? What this little bait/argument being implied for?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Escaped Vietnam? What this little bait/argument being implied for?
...-Gixer
I know a few people who had rich families in VN that lost everything and fled VN after the communists took over. They had their family businesses taken by the communists.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I know a few people who had rich families in VN that lost everything and fled VN after the communists took over. They had their family businesses taken by the communists.
So what? Millions lost alot more then just a wealthy family business or two.
Unfortunetly both Australia & NZ were dragged into the war costing my cousin his life. I really don't care about some family business being lost.
...-Gixer
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every 15 min ,CNN tells us about the glorius victory* of the north to free the people of the south.(run vidio clip)
*two years after nixion forced the north into a cease fire and made them leave the south and all the US combat troops left the south and congress cut off all aid to the south.
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Originally posted by Gixer
So what? Millions lost alot more then just a wealthy family business or two.
Unfortunetly both Australia & NZ were dragged into the war costing my cousin his life. I really don't care about some family business being lost.
...-Gixer
So you think VN as a whole is better off now that it's communist?
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Originally posted by Gixer
So what? Millions lost alot more then just a wealthy family business or two.
Unfortunetly both Australia & NZ were dragged into the war costing my cousin his life. I really don't care about some family business being lost.
...-Gixer
I guess I now can understand why you think China is so awesome for it's citizens.
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Originally posted by NUKE
So you think VN as a whole is better off now that it's communist?
Well.... they aren't at war with each other, like they used to be.
Most people doesn't have grudge agains't the states and many would like to visit the states.
Education is government backed.
Doesn't sound to me like they'd be doing too bad.
Of course it isn't perfect, but could be worse and getting worse, but its getting better.
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North Vietnam punished millions of people very severely after it captured the South. 10+ year prison sentences were handed out like candy.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
North Vietnam punished millions of people very severely after it captured the South. 10+ year prison sentences were handed out like candy.
That has happened quite often in Asia after a revolution/annexation.
"Funny" thing is that after a civil war in Finland, which was won by the whites (the richer side), the reds were punished severely.
Finally someone had a thought they possibly can't punish all the reds and that would leave no working power.
So they quit doing that.
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Originally posted by Fishu
"Funny" thing is that after a civil war in Finland, which was won by the whites (the richer side), the reds were punished severely.
Finally someone had a thought they possibly can't punish all the reds and that would leave no working power.
are you saying that finland is guilty of "war crimes"
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Originally posted by john9001
are you saying that finland is guilty of "war crimes"
Isn't rebellion a crime over there? okey.
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Personal attack
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If west germany wanted to unify with east germany how many west germans would you have killed to stop them?
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"The war in Vietnam was to prevent the Communist from taking over a Democratic Country and even though that Government may have been corrupt, it was still a free country and was worth defending"
Yes but the war in Vietnam was lost and yet communism didn't spread throughout asia so that pretty much puts an end to any argument for winning in Vietnam to stop the commie red tied. All that better "red then dead" and the "domino effect" propergander worked so well after WW2 that they didn't need to try and convince the public any more to support Vietnam.
As for the rest of your comments comparing those killed in WW2 not sure why your making comparisions there.
...-Gixer
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For a time the two largest contries in Asia where communist.
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
And now theyre violently protesting and bringing up the past. Never trust a commie.
It has nothing to do with the government.
Besides "theyre" = chinese.
It is some kind of cultural things for the chinese to remember things for a long time, just to bring it up even several generations later.
They are VERY patient with things like that.
Thats why they've been so patient with Taiwan and not simply rushed there to make sure it stays as a part of China.
Even if Taiwan would formally declare independency, it wouldn't necessarily mean China would attack, even though they've threatened to. It could go for years before something would be done.
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Well at least we got pho and banh mi and sriracha out of it. And all those cool Chuck Norris movies.
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Originally posted by Gixer
does the media/government prefer
Nuff said. :rofl
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Originally posted by Gixer
Must be quite disgruntling for some to see how well Vietnam has done on it's own after decades of war.
...-Gixer
Hehe , a cake winner.
Yea, thousands slaughtered after the take over. People imprisoned, punished, killed and the remainder beat into submission and living in fear , not allowed to express any of their own opinions, beliefs and not allowed to live their life they way they would wish.
It`s a big paradise I tell ya.
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*psst* jackal lots of reds on the board, see that as a paradise.
:o =lenin
:o = USSR oops :rofl
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Just for what it's worth what follows is a short excerpt from my diary about my return to Viet Nam two years ago. No news reels no cameras just a guy who wanted to clear up some things. If you have never had your boots on the ground, this is just another tale, modified by your bias, fed to you by the media. If you have been there, then you know of what I speak.
As a result of my ill advised return to SEA I have had to deal with a lot of anger management, both mine and the Mrs. About half way home she starts crying gives me a whack and says '' don't you ever do that to me again''. You guys who are married will probably understand, it was not what I had done but that I was the only one handy.
Born and raised in Berkeley CA This is her first trip off the North American Continent. In fact up until I retired she had never been more than 50 miles from where she was born, well we did go to LA and Reno a couple of times. This was not a good choice for a first out of country trip.
I needed to go to the garbage dumps, the rice paddy's and the river she needed to go to the museums and Howard Johnson's. But the museums are all closed and there is no Howard Johnson's.
We had a official ''interpreter'' with us the whole time, even though I had hired one, we also had a couple guys who just happened to be going to the same place we went, ... for two weeks. They were not part of our party but they were always in sight. Once I figured out that our official interpreter would follow her, (because she kept giving stuff to the children, and I did not speak much) if we began to ''drift apart'', (we were warned repeatedly to stay together) I began to stretch the distance and managed to have a few conversations with just random people. My ''hired'' interpreter understood what I wanted to ask people and that helped immensely. Once he learned that I could understand what people were saying even though I could not ''speak'' the language he got extremely creative with interpreting my questions to them. This helped set them at ease and I believe they gave more truthful, rather than guarded, answers. The older the person the angrier they seemed about the war, the younger people seemed to harbor more hope that it was not over, but just a lull till they could again take up arms to over throw their oppressors.
The first week I spent three days in our room I just could not go out again. The feeling of failure of the most excruciating and abstract kind just overwhelmed me. I was as close as I ever hope to come again to hating. Not the enemy or the establishment or the Americans who let this happen, but those who actively advocated it.
If a Genie could grant me one wish it would be that every single person who protested and ran to Canada etc etc would get to spend ten years living here on the local economy with no help from ''home'', to better understand the misery they have wrought to fellow human beings.
On reflection it would do little good. They would understand, at last, the consequences of being young, idealistic and unwise, and the abject and utter destruction of a entire culture that was the consequence of their stupidity. But the mainstream American would neither be any wiser nor even care.
Comments from Nam.
I VC, I kill Americans in war, we fought for wrong side.
We won the war then everyone lose.
We love uncle Ho but his politics were wrong.
We want to be free, we are not free.
My family had land for many years, the communists came now no one has land.
They sent us away to other community's, we can no longer tend the resting place of our ancestors.
I made 30 dollars a day when the Americans were here now I make 30 dollars a year, It was even better when the French were here.
when the communists came I hide, they killed my whole family.
We speak American, (sorely few words, but nevertheless) we teach our children. And the children are relentless about telling one every word they know.
The number one question asked, by the children, they are curious but reserved, ''Lyn So!?'' (Russian) shake your head no and they begin to jabber and become excited. ''American!?'' shake your head yes, ''You come back???'' hope glittering in their young eyes!
What does one tell them??
I need to reflect before I write more about the trip. I am just to pi$$ed off to be objective right now. Reminded me of an American political campaign a few years back ''Are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?'' ...
adit: We cut it a week short the Mrs and I had had all we could take.
Adit 2 We flew into Da Nang not the peoples paradise of Hanoi.
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MrBill, that was a good read.
Maybe people like Gixer, who seem to think the Chinese and Veitnamese people are not under oppression, will read this and begin to have some realistic idea about what these people's lives must be like.
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thanks mr bill..
I think all of you here who have never heard or read anything but the liberal propoganda should read the above and a very good and accurate book on a seldom covered part of the war..
the part where we and the South won and the subsequent betrayal by the U.S. or, by the people of the U.S. who are now telling us what happened.
The book is " A Better War" by Sorley
and gixer... sorry about your cousin but... the domino effect was indeed happening... the vietnam thing slowed it for ten years and helped with the eventual bankruptcy of the soviet union and the real end to the domino effect.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gixer
No,but the "Domino Effect" is going to happen any day now. :lol
Must be quite disgruntling for some to see how well Vietnam has done on it's own after decades of war.
...-Gixer
No problem now....Reagan went straight to the first domino and tipped it over.
Vietnam is doing slightly better than Cuba...two chickens per year.
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Originally posted by NUKE
MrBill, that was a good read.
Maybe people like Gixer, who seem to think the Chinese and Veitnamese people are not under oppression, will read this and begin to have some realistic idea about what these people's lives must be like.
Doubt they will ever understand, it will always be US propaganda to them.
68Parker
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neither democracy or communism served the vietnam people well.
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Thank you, Mr.Bill.
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torque... under democratic rule 420,000 acres were given back to private ownership by thousands of vietnam citizens.. local police forces made life more safe for hamlets than they had ever been in anyones lifetimes.
lazs
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Originally posted by NUKE
MrBill, that was a good read.
Maybe people like Gixer, who seem to think the Chinese and Veitnamese people are not under oppression, will read this and begin to have some realistic idea about what these people's lives must be like.
You seem obsessed with this conception that if your not living in the US or under democracy you must be opressed and from someone who hasn't been to China or probably knows anything more about Vietnam or China then what he sees and hears from Fox News and all it's balanced reporting.
Friend from Aussie is currently living in US and one of her comments was that she's amazed how little coverage the rest of the world gets there or peoples understanding of other countries/races/history etc. Following this board at times I can see how easily she could come to that conclusion.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Fishu
It has nothing to do with the government.
Besides "theyre" = chinese.
ah but the president of china recently met witht he japanese prime minister to talk about this matter. The chinese president was seeking a public formal appology to settle the protests.
It is some kind of cultural things for the chinese to remember things for a long time, just to bring it up even several generations later.
and they should and they should put it in their textbooks along with maos strategy for communist revolution. I can even understand some of the protest but what about all of the political prisoners or people who disappeared because of their political beliefs by mao and gang? sure things seem to be changing for the better now.
They are VERY patient with things like that.
Thats why they've been so patient with Taiwan and not simply rushed there to make sure it stays as a part of China.
Even if Taiwan would formally declare independency, it wouldn't necessarily mean China would attack, even though they've threatened to. It could go for years before something would be done.
taiwan may share its historical heritage with mainland china but taiwan is now its own country with its own political disposition. the us an its allies would never allow that to happen since taiwan is its ally in the region and hence leverage in that regions politics.
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Originally posted by Gixer
You seem obsessed with this conception that if your not living in the US or under democracy you must be opressed and from someone who hasn't been to China or probably knows anything more about Vietnam or China then what he sees and hears from Fox News and all it's balanced reporting.
Friend from Aussie is currently living in US and one of her comments was that she's amazed how little coverage the rest of the world gets there or peoples understanding of other countries/races/history etc. Following this board at times I can see how easily she could come to that conclusion.
...-Gixer
Actually, I don't feel that anyone not living in the US or under democracy is oppressed. Funny, you seem to believe that people in the US do not have access to accurate information about the outside world.
I'd think it fair to say that people in the US have just as much or more access to information as any other nation does. And it's pretty funny to me that you act snobbish......as if you have some moral higher ground. You assume that I get my news from Fox news?
If you want to pretend that the governments in China and Vietnam do not oppress the people, then that's your right.
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i get all my news from al jerzza, i think they are fair and balanced.
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Gixer I was mentioning the losses of WWII because you seem to have some animosity over the loss of your cousin towards the US for trying to defend South Vietnam. I also get ticked off at all the weak stomached people who want the US to pull out of Iraq every time there is a US casualty or like Kerry who guages whether or not its worth defending some place depenant on the body counts. Some times defending freedom comes cheap and other times it's very expensive and let me give you another qoute from American History which I beleive came from Thomas Paine "Give me liberty or give me death". You have to remember Gixer that the Vietnam war started in 1952-1953 as the french-indonesian war during the same time period that the US and it's allies were trying to defend South Korea from communist North Korea and China and before that every country under the control of USSR became communist so The US and thier allies felt that Communism was spreading (the domino theory) and it had to be stopped. Oh and another thing West Germany would have never used force to re-unify with East Germany but it would have happened the other way had it not beenn for the the US forces in Western Germany.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." --Thomas Jefferson.
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Originally posted by meddog
Gixer I was mentioning the losses of WWII because you seem to have some animosity over the loss of your cousin towards the US for trying to defend South Vietnam. I also get ticked off at all the weak stomached people who want the US to pull out of Iraq every time there is a US casualty or like Kerry who guages whether or not its worth defending some place depenant on the body counts. Some times defending freedom comes cheap and other times it's very expensive.
I think you've miss understood compeltely why I posted about my cousin in the first place but so be it. As for defending liberty, just remember that while your saluting the flag and calling to send more troops that's someones son/father that's just been killed. So the heaviest expense is always burdened by a few even more so if they believe the loss was in vain.
...-Gixer
''Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Herman Goring
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I find it interesting and unsettling that you used a quote from a murding Nazi that i'm assuming you're trying to use to justify your position.
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Personal attack
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Gixer is from New Zealand.... he knows what he is talking about. Americans are just arrogant and have no idea what goes on in the world, because we have FOX news.
And Gixer has been to China two times, so he's an expert on China.
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Karaya, you need to update your ignore list.
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Originally posted by Nash
Karaya, you need to update your ignore list.
Nash, YOU at least most of the time, DO make sense in one way or the other. <>
Karaya
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Originally posted by NUKE
yeah, do you know anyone who escaped VN?
Chuck Norris and Rambo but I've never met Rambo but do know Chuck Norris.
ack-ack
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How dare you insult me like that.
But no... I was referring to the fact that you were quoting one of your ignored. :D
But... mea culpa.... If ya gotta explain the joke, then...
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Originally posted by Nash
How dare you insult me like that.
But no... I was referring to the fact that you were quoting one of your ignored. :D
But... mea culpa.... If ya gotta explain the joke, then...
I "ignored him" after reading this thread.
Karaya
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Damn, yer fast. Okay then. :)
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Why ignor Gixer? He is from New Zealand.
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Originally posted by Nash
Damn, yer fast. Okay then. :)
not to shabby yerself :)
Karaya
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Originally posted by meddog
I find it interesting and unsettling that you used a quote from a murding Nazi that i'm assuming you're trying to use to justify your position.
People use plenty of quotes from Nazis on this forum. Is it just because it's from Goring that you find it unsettling,what he's said or both?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by NUKE
Why ignor Gixer? He is from New Zealand.
C'mon Nuke you and others can do better then the usual petty insults please.
...-Gixer
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How to fight it?
Australian and New Zealand infantry units were extremely successful in Vietnam, using lessons learned from fighting the communists in Malaya.
From small unit, and large formation tactics and operations, counter-insurgent patrolling, to unit make-up and formation rotations in and out of Vietnam.
Originally posted by Gixer
So what? Millions lost alot more then just a wealthy family business or two.
Unfortunetly both Australia & NZ were dragged into the war costing my cousin his life. I really don't care about some family business being lost.
...-Gixer
I'm not sure about dragged...Australia (and New Zealand?) were involved due to the ANZUS treaty, and in australia's case - the real fear of the advance of communism in asia and after it's involvement against communist guerillas in the Malayan emergency and Indonesia
The australian govt. intially sent over the AATTV (Australian Army Training Team Vietnam) in '62. In '65 that commitment grew to the deployment of the 1st Battalion,the Royal Australian Regiment.
The following year the Australian government's concern grew to the point where it felt that, if Australia were involved in the conflict, its presence should be both strong and identifiable so the 1st Australian Task Force was born in Nui Dat, Phuoc Tuy province.
Initially consisting of 2 infantry battalions of the Royal Australian Regiment (later 3), the 3rd Special Air Service Squadron, and 3 batteries of Artillery (2 Australian and the 161st Battery, Royal New Zealand Artillery) .The New Zealand infantry companies were attached to the Australian infantry battalions, and SAS sqns.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by Excel1
You mean apart from the bleeding obvious... a super power getting its arse kicked by a bunch of rice farmers. We might know a bit more about the war than a thin skinned wussy yank might think. Not some hollyweird bs version either but first hand accounts, cause although the force was small we were there from 1964 to 72.
http://www.militarybadges.info/nzarmy/page/12-vietnam.htm
Excel
So you yourself was there?
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The military didn't lose. The politicians gave it away.
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yep... and... If the NZ and aussie guys were there then they and their politicians are as responsible as anyone for giving that war away. Why didn't your countries support the south with aid after we abondoned them?
If we allowed it to happen then you are just as guilty and.. it was more in your neck of the woods than ours...
All the allies abondoned the south after the war had been won.
lazs
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Originally posted by -tronski-
How to fight it?
Australian and New Zealand infantry units were extremely successful in Vietnam, using lessons learned from fighting the communists in Malaya.
From small unit, and large formation tactics and operations, counter-insurgent patrolling, to unit make-up and formation rotations in and out of Vietnam.
Tronsky
Agreed, but it wasn`t directed at any country, only an individual.
Actualy I deleted the post. I had found out earlier in the day that my best friend had been killed and wasn`t in the best frame of mind.
Apoligies to the thread.
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Originally posted by -tronski-
How to fight it?
Australian and New Zealand infantry units were extremely successful in Vietnam, using lessons learned from fighting the communists in Malaya.
From small unit, and large formation tactics and operations, counter-insurgent patrolling, to unit make-up and formation rotations in and out of Vietnam.
Agreed
One of the books I read states flat out that the Austrailian forces were the most successful at fighting in Vietnam because of their prior experience in Malaya.
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Originally posted by Gixer
C'mon Nuke you and others can do better then the usual petty insults please.
...-Gixer
Well Gixer, you seem to like to try and diminish my opinions by stating things about America.....as if it were perfectly fair game.
You are the one that comes off arrogant while doing so. Ever think about that? I don't remember ever saying anything about New Zealand as a point in an argument with you, but you bring up my country a lot. For instance, I say that the Chinese people are oppressd, then you respond by saying Americans get their information about the outside world from FOX. You sound like the one being arrogant and ignorant.
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Originally posted by NUKE
For instance, I say that the Chinese people are oppressd, then you respond by saying Americans get their information about the outside world from FOX.
The argument that Americans are uninformed or brainwashed by propaganda is old, tired and for the most part BS.
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Originally posted by Gixer
You seem obsessed with this conception that if your not living in the US or under democracy you must be opressed and from someone who hasn't been to China or probably knows anything more about Vietnam or China then what he sees and hears from Fox News and all it's balanced reporting.
That's one of the reasons it's so funny to hear how opressed and poor I was in Soviet times.
Vietnam - Red side won. 30 years of peace, removing a Pol Pot regime in Kambodia, winning a war with China.
Afghanistan - Red side withdrew, 15+ years of civil war, slaughter and a teocratic Taliban regime built by Blue side.
Noone seems to remember several millions of Vietnamese killed by carpet bombings, using toxic defoliants and Song Mi. BTW, I tried to find any information about Song Mi on the Net, I failed... Is it already forgotten?... :rolleyes:
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Song Mi
====
The Beatles White Album?
On a unrelated note: Hows things in Moscow these days Boroda?
I saw a prime time news special this weekend on PrimeTime (A news telezine) about that american guy who was running Russian Forbes Magazine and his murder.
Was a fascinating story. I feel sorry for that guy, seems he stepped on some powerful toes....and the way Moscow was described was really something.
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???
It was a village that had it's complete population including pregnant women and babies slaughtered by US troops. The platoon commander, lt. Kollie (sp? I read his mane only in Cyrillic, Колли) spent someting like one year in prison, got sentenced to something like 1.5 years and released even sooner, IIRC.
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It's My Lai in our history, not Song Mi (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylai.htm)
Notice that Lt. Calley and others were prosecuted, unlike the Soviet murderers at Katyn Forest.
You can go on pretending that the Soviets were all benevolent freedom fighters but history has already shown that to be one of the biggest lies so far.
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Your talking about Mi Lae Villiage. Google that and you will find plenty.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Your talking about Mi Lae Villiage. Google that and you will find plenty.
Thanks. Last time I read about it it was on Chechen terrorist site after 0911, they removed the article in a few days, and the village was called "Song Mi"... You see - they always lie :mad:
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all I know is that to win an arguement on security vs freedom on this board....
All I have to do is say how secure and crime free soviet russia was and "is that what you would like?" that useally ends the thirst for letting the government run your life.
;azs
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Originally posted by Yeager
On a unrelated note: Hows things in Moscow these days Boroda?
Originally posted by Boroda
???
It was a village that had it's complete population including pregnant women and babies slaughtered by US troops. The platoon commander, lt. Kollie (sp? I read his mane only in Cyrillic, Колли) spent someting like one year in prison, got sentenced to something like 1.5 years and released even sooner, IIRC.
:confused:
:o
pwned
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quote:
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Originally posted by Gixer
C'mon Nuke you and others can do better then the usual petty insults please.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well Gixer, you seem to like to try and diminish my opinions by stating things about America.....as if it were perfectly fair game.
You are the one that comes off arrogant while doing so. Ever think about that? I don't remember ever saying anything about New Zealand as a point in an argument with you, but you bring up my country a lot. For instance, I say that the Chinese people are oppressd, then you respond by saying Americans get their information about the outside world from FOX. You sound like the one being arrogant and ignorant.
Insults? YOU pretend to KNOW what you are trying to discuss and WE'RE insulting you? Again, ask my adopted Vietnamese brother.
Karaya
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(http://img.photosight.ru/2005/04/28/840701.jpg)
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Jimbear you shouda labeled that pwned, then we could seen what Nuke looks like having an epileptic fit
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Originally posted by Yeager
On a unrelated note: Hows things in Moscow these days Boroda?
I saw a prime time news special this weekend on PrimeTime (A news telezine) about that american guy who was running Russian Forbes Magazine and his murder.
Was a fascinating story. I feel sorry for that guy, seems he stepped on some powerful toes....and the way Moscow was described was really something.
Sorry, didn't answer before...
That Forbes editor became famous because of his book, "Dialogues with a barbarian", where he described Chechens as bloodthirsty gangsters. One of the versions was the revenge from Chechens he actually was aquainted with. Another version is that he was killed because he published the list of Russian top 500 rich people...
IMHO he was one of the very few professional journalists, and I mean not only in Russia.
About how the things are in Moiscow - the city prepares for Victory Day. I wonder if it will be possible to go anywhere on May 9th or they'll close the whole city. Unfortunately I can't go to the forest yet, so I'll probably sit at home and party with friends... My Father will be too busy, he's in parade team, like in 1945. One of the 2500 vets. I asked him to teach Putin what to do when they'll meet him in Kremlin ;)
The biggest problem I see now is that our beloved legislators (may they rot in hell!) forbid to drink beer and other low-alcohol stuff in public. So I have to hide a can of screwdriver in a pocket when I ride home in the subway every evening. Other things are as usual: government officials keep stealing, people keep living. Public discussion agenda: a monument to Big Three (FDR, WSC and JVS) in a Victory park.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Other things are as usual: government officials keep stealing, people keep living. Public discussion agenda: a monument to Big Three (FDR, WSC and JVS) in a Victory park.
You forgot new discussion about renaming Volgograd back into Stalingrad.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Agreed
One of the books I read states flat out that the Austrailian forces were the most successful at fighting in Vietnam because of their prior experience in Malaya.
So were the South Koreans that fought. They were so feared by the VC that the VC would rather engage the US forces than the ROK units.
ack-ack
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http://www.vietnamtourism.com/
Those commies seem to be doing OK!
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Originally posted by NUKE
yeah, do you know anyone who escaped VN?
We have thousands Vietnamies overhere. Not political refugies, they simply come for bussines.
Few days ago i use to hear in news, that Vietnam is about to 'copy' chinese reforms.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
http://www.vietnamtourism.com/
Those commies seem to be doing OK!
It must be propaganda... Mr Bush said, that other regimes that democratic are terror, dead, and instability.
You dont remember all those famous chits like "freedom for world peace" and so on ? :D
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So were the South Koreans that fought. They were so feared by the VC that the VC would rather engage the US forces than the ROK units.
ack-ack
Hehe. Yep, but I think we could have solved a lot of problems if we had just made some more orders to Barnett for a few thousand more crossbows and supplied them to the Yards.(Montagnards).
Only prob was they weren`t too choosey whether they were North or South they were thrashing.
;)
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Agreed, but it wasn`t directed at any country, only an individual.
Actualy I deleted the post. I had found out earlier in the day that my best friend had been killed and wasn`t in the best frame of mind.
Apoligies to the thread.
Jackal, I'm sorry to hear about the death of your mate.
I apologize for the personel attack I made on you and the offensive tone of my post.
Excel
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We have our differences Mr Jackal but that is a bummer to be sure. Sorry to hear that.
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Originally posted by Excel1
Jackal, I'm sorry to hear about the death of your mate.
I apologize for the personel attack I made on you and the offensive tone of my post.
Excel
No problem. I shouldn`t have posted what I did to begin with.
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Originally posted by parker00
So you yourself was there?
No.
I was too young to join the army. It appealed to me, but I was born nearly a decade too late to serve in Vietnam.
Excel
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Originally posted by Boroda
Vietnam - Red side won. 30 years of peace, removing a Pol Pot regime in Kambodia, winning a war with China.
Afghanistan - Red side withdrew, 15+ years of civil war, slaughter and a teocratic Taliban regime built by Blue side.
Doesn't that mean the red side "lost", instead of "withdrew"?
Or should I read the vietnam outcome as "the US withdrew"?
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Originally posted by Fishu
Doesn't that mean the red side "lost", instead of "withdrew"?
Or should I read the vietnam outcome as "the US withdrew"?
Damn right the Soviets lost in Afghanistan. When I was in Adrian College in the early 90's, I had the pleasure of knowing an "Mujahdin(sp?) Freedom Fighter".
Boroda, come off it man. The Soviet's "lost" in Afghanistan, the same way "Tsar Nicholas lost in 1917".
Karaya
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Originally posted by NUKE
So you think VN as a whole is better off now that it's communist?
Yes, as a whole compared to awful regime before. And I prolly hate commuinsm more than anyone here.
The reason we lost the VN war was due to ineptness of the SVN government.
I would think differently if the SVN govt was better, but it wasnt so I dont.
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Originally posted by JimBear
(http://img.photosight.ru/2005/04/28/840701.jpg)
How did you take a screenshot of Boroda's delusional daydreams?
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Can somebody explain me, why Russian and Emrekan are using same start but in diferent colour ?
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Originally posted by lada
Can somebody explain me, why Russian and Emrekan are using same start but in diferent colour ?
Mozhet iz-za togo, chto "blue" /= golubye ? ;-)
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Damn right the Soviets lost in Afghanistan. When I was in Adrian College in the early 90's, I had the pleasure of knowing an "Mujahdin(sp?) Freedom Fighter".
Boroda, come off it man. The Soviet's "lost" in Afghanistan, the same way "Tsar Nicholas lost in 1917".
Karaya
You are probably right. There is some similarity. Both Nikolay II and Gorby were traitors. But Nikolay Romanov didn't "lose" in 1917, he deserted. At least it's how I see it. Deserted and betrayed allies.
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Originally posted by Fishu
It has nothing to do with the government.
Besides "theyre" = chinese.
It is some kind of cultural things for the chinese to remember things for a long time, just to bring it up even several generations later.
They are VERY patient with things like that.
Thats why they've been so patient with Taiwan and not simply rushed there to make sure it stays as a part of China.
Even if Taiwan would formally declare independency, it wouldn't necessarily mean China would attack, even though they've threatened to. It could go for years before something would be done.
CHina will never attack Taiwan. They posture with their show of force not because of taiwan but because of the other provinces that have much less publicity but strive for independence from China.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
http://www.vietnamtourism.com/
Those commies seem to be doing OK!
These Commies do any better and they may improve the standard of living to two chickens per year.
http://www.dtcuba.com/eng/default.asp (http://www.dtcuba.com/eng/default.asp)
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Originally posted by Boroda
???
It was a village that had it's complete population including pregnant women and babies slaughtered by US troops. The platoon commander, lt. Kollie (sp? I read his mane only in Cyrillic, Колли) spent someting like one year in prison, got sentenced to something like 1.5 years and released even sooner, IIRC.
Boroda you make me laugh.
The NVA and VC slaughtered whole villages and hacked off the limbs of children many times in the war. Usually the crime was accepting aid from the US.
Yet you see no reason to comment on this.
I could fill pages here of atrocites commited by the VC yet you seem to want to say the US was the evil one.
If you are not able to look at the whole war and compare what each side had done both in scale and frequency then you are just trying to do what Russians have tried to do for years. Mislead and misinform.
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Originally posted by Habu
Boroda you make me laugh.
The NVA and VC slaughtered whole villages and hacked off the limbs of children many times in the war. Usually the crime was accepting aid from the US.
Habu you make me laugh,
The US replied with some 15.4 million tons of bombs,shells and mines (more then dropped in WW2) and killed some 2 million civilians. And there's been something like 8,000 more civilians killed since the war end due to the estimated 300,000 tons of unexploded munitions. Probably a good portion of those are children as they like to play with UXO's and I don't think anyones kept track of how many llimbs have been hacked/blown off.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by lazs2
All the allies abondoned the south after the war had been won.
lazs
That's an interesting statement on history, In what year was the war won in Vietnam Lazs?
...-Gixer
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1975 by the Communists I thought!:confused:
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Originally posted by Gixer
Habu you make me laugh,
The US replied with some 15.4 million tons of bombs,shells and mines (more then dropped in WW2) and killed some 2 million civilians. And there's been something like 8,000 more civilians killed since the war end due to the estimated 300,000 tons of unexploded munitions. Probably a good portion of those are children as they like to play with UXO's and I don't think anyones kept track of how many llimbs have been hacked/blown off.
...-Gixer
Gixer your shallow use of facts is amusing. The US was mostly boming targets like the Ho Chi Minh trail which was mostly empty jungle in the middle of nowhere. In WW2 the bombs almost always fell on populated cities.
To compare the two like you did just shows your ignorance of the subject.
Wow they US killed 2 million civilians did they? Care to post some reputable sources for you claims?
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Originally posted by Habu
Gixer your shallow use of facts is amusing.
To say the least.
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Originally posted by Habu
Gixer your shallow use of facts is amusing. The US was mostly boming targets like the Ho Chi Minh trail which was mostly empty jungle in the middle of nowhere. In WW2 the bombs almost always fell on populated cities.
To compare the two like you did just shows your ignorance of the subject.
Wow they US killed 2 million civilians did they? Care to post some reputable sources for you claims?
Which is more ignorant, statistics on the war or your denial? I didn't make the stats up, have a search on the web for yourself.
...-Gixer
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You post alot but you have little of intelligence to say.
I am reading a good first had account of the war right now. I should post some excerpts from someone who was there and saw things first hand.
Might be the closest you come to actually reading a book on the subject.
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Originally posted by Habu
You post alot but you have little of intelligence to say.
I am reading a good first had account of the war right now. I should post some excerpts from someone who was there and saw things first hand.
Might be the closest you come to actually reading a book on the subject.
All I did was post the stats that all the world news agencies have been using as the offical records. If you want to believe something else that's up to you. But you can't just sit there and deny what happened, is ignorance.
...-Gixer
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You lost all credibility when you said the US killed 2 million civilians. Show me a credible source for that number.
I can make up total nonsense like that too.
Did you know the first microchip weighted 16 kilograms?
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Originally posted by Habu
You lost all credibility when you said the US killed 2 million civilians. Show me a credible source for that number.
I can make up total nonsense like that too.
Did you know the first microchip weighted 16 kilograms?
Why should I bother to take the time, any source I post you will deny. How about you have a search yourself and see what kind of figures you come up with. Statistics on war dead record 1.3 million VC and somewhere around 2 million civilians. If you don't want to believe that so be it I really don't care. But those are the recorded figures in the history books.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Why should I bother to take the time, any source I post you will deny. How about you have a search yourself and see what kind of figures you come up with. Statistics on war dead record 1.3 million VC and somewhere around 2 million civilians. If you don't want to believe that so be it I really don't care. But those are the recorded figures in the history books.
...-Gixer
Are you saying that the US killed 2 million civilians in Vietnam?
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Did a google and found some letters joined into words then placed into sentences and further, paragraphs. I know the following to be neither true nor false and I lay them out here simply for the purpose of mucking up the water
====
The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south. Military casualties were 1.1 million killed and 600,000 wounded in 21 years of war. These figures were deliberately falsified during the war by the North Vietnamese Communists to avoid demoralizing the population.
Note: Given a Vietnamese population of approximately 38 million during the period 1954-1975, Vietnamese casualties represent a good 12-13% of the entire population. To put this in perspective, consider that the population of the US was 220 million during the Vietnam War. Had The US sustained casualties of 13% of its population, there would have been 28 million US dead.
and elsewhere, on another websight:
====
The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.
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New Zealand lost 38 soldiers
The sheep wailed, goats tore at their beards.. the mourners, to this day; still fill the streets on shearing day.
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The Hanoi government revealed on April 4 that the true civilian casualties of the Vietnam War were 2,000,000 in the north, and 2,000,000 in the south.
So, Hanoi is saying 4 million civilians were killed?
I also searched the web and could find nothing to back up Gixer's claim that the US killed 2 million civilians. Maybe it's because I'm in America and I don't get accurate information about the outside world.
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Heres some more good reading. I cant say one way or the other whats true and whats false about this stuff but its safe to say that gixer is entitled to formulate and declare his opinion with the caveat that it is formulated on information that may be either true or false. To each his own.
====
Charge: Airpower was an indiscriminate weapon that killed excessive numbers of Vietnamese civilians.
Response: Guenter Lewy has provided the most authoritative statistics on casualties in the Vietnam War--although he himself admits these numbers are estimates. He states that 250,000 South Vietnamese civilians were killed in the fighting, with another 39,000 assassinated by the Viet Cong. Breaking down the casualties by cause is difficult, but based on those civilians admitted to hospitals between 1967 and 1970, Lewy estimates that 67 percent of all injuries resulted from mines, mortars, guns, and grenades. The other 33 percent were injured by shelling or bombing. If these percentages are used for the entire war, and if we assume that the number of those injured by shelling or bombing are equal (Lewy doesn't break this category down), and if we assume that those killed met their fates in the same percentages as did those who were wounded--and all of those are big ifs--then of the 587,000 Vietnamese civilians, both north and south, that Lewy states were killed during the war, around 147,000 (25 percent) died from air attacks. The other 75 percent, more than 440,000 people, were killed by ground or naval action.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Heres some more good reading. I cant say one way or the other whats true and whats false about this stuff but its safe to say that gixer is entitled to formulate and declare his opinion with the caveat that it is formulated on information that may be either true or false. To each his own.
Your sources are not "good reading".......the first was a communist propoganda message, the other pure conjecture.
Gixer stated as FACT that the US killed 2 million civilians in Vietnam. He has offered nothing to back up his claims.
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2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan.1, 1965 - March 28, 1973). Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964. (VFW)
We all had a quota.. we were required to kill one pregnant woman, two children, plus an old man or 2 per day, as well as any livestock and buddist monks we encountered. (monks were to be burned, rather than shot) We were blood thirsty savages, stoned on thai stick and horse every day; totally dedicated to the rape and ruin of the vietnamese people.
The Vietnamese Sources lie like carpetbombs, their numbers are way off. We snuffed at least 10 million gomers just the last month we were there... shame they pulled us out, we wuz just gettin our game on.
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Jeeze nuke: calm down son. Vietnam was a massive conflict and two million civies getting hammered over a decade isnt un****ing believable you know.....I do not believe it for a moment but I can see it being in the ballpark of possibility. Plus I think gixer is a sheepshagger so dont get yer undies all bunched up
Anyway heres the links to your "communist" sources :D
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
http://www.vietnam-war.info/casualties/
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Originally posted by Yeager
Jeeze nuke: calm down son. Vietnam was a massive conflict and two million civies getting hammered over a decade isnt un****ing believable you know.....
2 milllion civilains killed by the US???? That's one of the largest acts of killing in the history of the world. Are you crazy?
When someone says the US killed 2 million civilians and can't back it up with proof, I'm not going to give them the benifit of a doubt.
Are you saying that you agreed that the US killed 2 million civilians??? Amazing. It's pure BS.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Anyway heres the links to your "communist" sources :D
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
http://www.vietnam-war.info/casualties/
Did you happen to notice the source as being COMMUNIST Vietnam?
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We all had a quota.. we were required to kill one pregnant woman, two children, plus an old man or 2 per day, as well as any livestock and buddist monks we encountered. (monks were to be burned, rather than shot) We were blood thirsty savages, stoned on thai stick and horse every day; totally dedicated to the rape and ruin of the vietnamese people.
The Vietnamese Sources lie like carpetbombs, their numbers are way off. We snuffed at least 10 million gomers just the last month we were there... shame they pulled us out, we wuz just gettin our game on.
ROFLMAO
I think that's the funniest comment I think I have ever read from a vet. can't add a thing.
< S > hang and thanks.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Gixer stated as FACT that the US killed 2 million civilians in Vietnam. He has offered nothing to back up his claims.
Why NUKE asks? Gixer is an idiot, that is why, little chode as well.
Karaya
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Originally posted by NUKE
So, Hanoi is saying 4 million civilians were killed?
I also searched the web and could find nothing to back up Gixer's claim that the US killed 2 million civilians. Maybe it's because I'm in America and I don't get accurate information about the outside world.
You get it, you just choose to ignore it unless it is American.
...-Gixer
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nuke your losing me here bro, but thats ok. It dinna matter.
Id hazard a guess and say 600000 civies died during 10 years and that less than half of those were a result of us action.
You see, Im guessing and its worth as much as anything else because you, me, gixer...none of us will ever know what the true number is whether itd ten, ten thousand or a million or more.
again, I dont care Im just having some fun here :D
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Actually, the 2 million people figure isn't as random as you think.
Due to the way the war was fought it was very difficult to count casualties on the vietnamese side.
So at worst estimates right now say that 2 million vietnamese died, north and south.
However, that number is not broken up into combatants, civilians or deaths at whoever's hands.
It just said that there were 2 million vietnamese dead who were alive 10 years before.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
The sheep wailed, goats tore at their beards.. the mourners, to this day; still fill the streets on shearing day.
Not even close.
It was an unpopular war as you would know.
Those that came back were treated with disdain, those few that didn't were just forgotten- except by their families. It's only recently their names are finally being added to the cenotaphs that commemorate all NZs war dead. It's shameful, but better late than never.
Excel
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There is a school of thought developing here (lasersailer) that anyone who died in Vietnam regardless of side, civilian or not, natural causes or not, was the fault of the US because if there was no war there would not have been any deaths.
Also using Communist casualties figures is acceptable because we now know that during the war they actual lowered the official death counts to preserve moral (so we can now trust their new numbers (whatever they are) and we know that they would never raise them artificially now that they are trying to guilt the US into more aid and trade).
Using that logic I would like to blame every death from any cold war conflict on Russia, because if there was no Russia there would not have been any Vietnam nor Korea nor any of the hundreds in insurgencies in places like Borneo, Africa and South and Central American. In fact I would like to blame Russia for WW2 as well because if Hitler had not have started it then for sure Stalin would have. And lets not forget all those people who died between the wars after the Russian revolution.
So based on these undeniable facts, I can now positively blame Russia for over 2 Billion deaths. This is a FACT. A billion is 1,000,000,000 people (we are not using the Euroweene definition of a million million but the proper US definition of 1000 million).
So all you anti US retards out there, stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Actually, the 2 million people figure isn't as random as you think.
Due to the way the war was fought it was very difficult to count casualties on the vietnamese side.
So at worst estimates right now say that 2 million vietnamese died, north and south.
However, that number is not broken up into combatants, civilians or deaths at whoever's hands.
It just said that there were 2 million vietnamese dead who were alive 10 years before.
Yeah, but Gixer has some secret source that says 2 million civilians were killed by the US, so whatever you say is not true.
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Originally posted by Habu
So based on these undeniable facts, I can now positively blame Russia for over 2 Billion deaths. This is a FACT. A billion is 1,000,000,000 people (we are not using the Euroweene definition of a million million but the proper US definition of 1000 million).
So, every Russian is responsible for killing himself 1000 times. It's even better then Hangtime's description of his missions.
In WWII USSR lost 27 million out of it's 170 million population. Almost 20 million were civilians.
Modern "liberastic historians" estimate Soviet losses (armed forces only) up to 40-60 million, using some secret demographic and sociological techniques. Solzhenitsyn said about 50 millions of victims of Evil Stalin's Gulag. I look around and still see people, and it makes me wonder: according to the most honest, advanced and true Western "historical science" there must be not enough people around to populate Moscow, not speaking about remaining 1/7th part of land on Earth...
Keep believing this propaganda crap.
I have deepest respect for Hangtime and other Vietnam war vets (not for criminals like Calley's platoon), but denying massive bombings of Hanoi, Haifon and other cities is stupid. And yes, I am proud that my country helped Vietnamese defend their land and population.
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Jeeze.. we musta fouled up somewhere, bigtime. We wuz SUPPOSED ta be bombing trees & bridges, occasionally we'd actually try & hit a suspected road junction or target Uncle Ho's Floating Malt Shop & Monkey Meat Emporium.
Whoda guessed there were gomers under all those trees?? ..and after 10 years, you'd think they'd pick a better place to hide, like an airfield or a military barracks.
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Yes but using the logic of a guy or two who post here Russia is responsible for every death is every war and every inserection since the revolution that it was in, supported, financed or had any involvment whatsoever in.
So my figure of 2 Billion stands.
Of course if you think this is nonsense then perhaps you can understand how the 2 million civilian deaths attributed to the US in Vietnam war is also nonsense.
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maybe 6 million Jews are unproven too?... :rolleyes:
As for me - I'll believe Vietnamese side. It's just my personal choice, based on experience with "trusted" Western "historical data".
Sorry to say it, but genocide was in US military plans since 1945. Guess against which country.
To Hangtime: my Uncle will be unable to sleep when he'll know the breathtaking truth: US planes he shot down were carrying humanitarian aid and Christmas presents! His SAM position got hit only because he interfered into the process of familiarizing Vietnamese with Western values and lifestyle :(
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And yes, I am proud that my country helped Vietnamese defend their land and population.
I didn't realise that Russia helped defend South Vietnam from the invading North.
Thanks for all the help. :rolleyes:
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Hiya Boroda!
I apologize for the unfortunate incident where we mistakenly bombed yer dad's SAM site. We musta mistook it for a hospital.
Cheers!!
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Originally posted by NUKE
I didn't realise that Russia helped defend South Vietnam from the invading North.
Thanks for all the help. :rolleyes:
NP.
Just check when bloody Vienamese commies started bombing the US. And when bloody Soviets started to ship SAMs to them so they could shoot down peacefull American planes that flew around for sightseeing.
Hangtime, it was my Uncle, not Father. At that time my Father was building bomb-shelters in USSR. Cheers! ;)
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, but Gixer has some secret source that says 2 million civilians were killed by the US, so whatever you say is not true.
It's not a secret source that was the figure released by the Vietnamese (don't you think they would know better then anyone who was left after the war?) after the war and that historians refer to when commenting on civilans killed. I doubt the US would release official figures on civilian deaths during the Vietnam War or even acknowledge them any more then they will for the civilians killed in Iraq for obvious reasons. So the discussion with you is pointless since you only believe in American sources for information which is an irony in itself.
I never said the US killed 2 million civilians, I said 2 million civilians died during the Vietnam war though I didn't specify North Vietnam. Though it's obvious that if 2 million civilians are recorded to have died in North Vietnam and your doing all the bombing that a high proportion of those are going to be from US action. So I suggest you open your mind for a second and think about it.
To help you with this process, didn't the US Military during the war estimate that for every 10,000 rounds or what ever the number was they killed one VC, so for every 10,000 pounds of bombs dropped on North Vietnam how many Civilians do you think you might possibly of been killed? None? :rolleyes:
Then of course we have the millions that were made refugees.
Another point was the number of people killed and still being killed/maimed by unexploded ordanance all over Vietnam, cluster bombs and land mines being a major problem, yet the US Govt has hardly done anything to assist in this clean up. Other then the odd assistance by some veteran groups to go over at their own expense and help out.
Which made it all too Ironic when someone tried to claim the moral high ground by saying that the VC killed and hacked the limbs off children.
Obviously all of this isn't a good look for the leader of the free world and democracy so understandable you choose to believe what ever you like. But history records it the way it was irrelevent to who did what.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
I never said the US killed 2 million civilians, I said 2 million civilians died during the Vietnam war though I didn't specify North Vietnam.
Really?
Originally posted by Gixer
Habu you make me laugh,
The US replied with some 15.4 million tons of bombs,shells and mines (more then dropped in WW2) and killed some 2 million civilians.
You go right ahead and believe the figures Vietnam gives now fo rthe number killed. Since you insist on saying that I only beleive American sources for some reason, I am going to state that you will only believe in Communist sources for your information about the outside world. And my accusation seems more valid with each new post authored by you, Gixer.
And the refugees? You know that the US stopped fighting in VN in 1973 under agreement with the North? Congress then pulled almost all funding to the South by 1975. In 1975, the North INVADED the south and took over the country, This is when the refugees started flooding out of South Vietnam in order to escape.
The communists then made probably millions dissappear. Maybe they use the people they killed themselves in the civilian death counts for all you know.
You really are a treat Gixer.
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Seriously I don't see what source can be seen as credible.
One lack credibility because of propaganda suspection
The other lack credibility because I don't see how it can have accurate data.
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Originally posted by straffo
Seriously I don't see what source can be seen as credible.
One lack credibility because of propaganda suspection
The other lack credibility because I don't see how it can have accurate data.
exactly.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
1975 by the Communists I thought!:confused:
The Communists won in Cuba too......Thats why they keep trying to escape in truck innertubes ( when they can find one) and any other makeshift item they can scrounge up. All of this after the Soviet Union was paying 2 times the market price for sugar to prop up a failed dictatorship. Did the Russian people ever wonder why they had shortages? A little economics 101 would have solved that. A couple friends of mine have brought back Russian wifes from some wife mill in Moscow. Both Young and very beautiful. They are both bald and middle aged. They took them shopping for clothes at the goodwill. This would be funny but (unfortunately) it is true. They didn't know the difference, they thought they where at a department store. I set them straight. The look on their face when they saw the first walmart super store was a sight you had to see to believe.
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Originally posted by Gixer
All I did was post the stats that all the world news agencies have been using as the offical records. If you want to believe something else that's up to you. But you can't just sit there and deny what happened, is ignorance.
...-Gixer
This may be true, but what about all of the woman and children that the New Zealand army slaughtered during WWII. From the News media here, like Fox, I understand that it was over 4 million.
I know you will deny this, but you only fool yourself.
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Originally posted by NUKE
This is when the refugees started flooding out of South Vietnam in order to escape.
See in your mindset you only think of South Vietnam, what about those that were made homeless in the north and flooded south because of the bombing? Have you ever thought of that?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
See in your mindset you only think of South Vietnam, what about those that were made homeless in the north and flooded south because of the bombing? Have you ever thought of that?
...-Gixer
Also Gixer, I'm getting tired of you pretending to know what I am thinking in my mind. You are simply off the mark every time
Why don't you give a source that is able to give data on the people made homeless in the north and had to flee to the south to escape US bombing.
I can give you sources and probably even videos of the people fleeing South Vietnam after the North invaded them, two years after America left South Vietnam to fend for itself.
Wonder why they would become refugees? The US wasn't bombing the south, yet possibly millions fled as refugees. I wonder why they wanted to leave?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Wonder why they would become refugees? The US wasn't bombing the south, yet possibly millions fled as refugees. I wonder why they wanted to leave?
Because they wanted to keep their children together with their Dad's?
Understandable your patrotism towards your flag but it really does impeed on your view of the outside world at times, especially towards anyone or opinion thats anything other then red white and blue in your eyes.
Just quickly labeled as an idiot or that their facts are wrong which is a poor exit to any debate.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
what about those that were made homeless in the north and flooded south because of the bombing? Have you ever thought of that?
...-Gixer
Oh, my, yes. There were LOTS Of them that flooded South because of the bombing.
They came down the Ho Chi Minh trail, carrying weapons, ammo, food and other supplies.
Look, here's one of the poor homeless in the north that flooded south now!!!
(http://www.pvda.be/images/solidair2002/sol1002/p20Vietnam_bw.jpg)
1966. A female soldier of the Vietnamese Liberation Army carries a box of ammunition over the Ho Chi Minh Trail. (Picture Bui Dinh Tuy, archive)
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LMAO
Ok Toad so in your opinion everyone who fled from the North to the South was carrying ammo? LOL Excellent reasoning.
...-Gixer
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LMAO
Ok Gixer so in your opinion everyone who fled from the North to the South was a poor homeless refugee? LOL Excellent reasoning.
Here, just for you. Puzzle on it a while.
(http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~jhogan/ass.jpg)
and
(http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/a/a3/Baseball_pick-off_attempt.jpg)
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Originally posted by Gixer
Because they wanted to keep their children together with their Dad's?
Understandable your patrotism towards your flag but it really does impeed on your view of the outside world at times, especially towards anyone or opinion thats anything other then red white and blue in your eyes.
Just quickly labeled as an idiot or that their facts are wrong which is a poor exit to any debate.
...-Gixer
Your opinion that I only view events blindly, through patriotic American eyes is a joke. You keep bringing it up without cause. That's no way to engage in an argument. I could use that tactic on you and your "facts" too .....but it doesn't help to make a point, does it?
When you cannot support an argument you resort to the childish tactic of assaulting my knowledge as being inferior, just because I;m American. Pretty bad form, Gixer.
You seem to be the one with a scewed view. For instance, you site figures that cannot even be verified and take them as fact. When have I done that? You call Americans arrogant and ignorant of the outside world. When have I ever done that against another person's country? I seem to be more open minded than you in that regard.
Can you please explain why over 400,000 Vietnamese fled Vietnam in the early eighties? And again in the early ninetees, another large swell of "boat people" again fled. You think they wanted to be with thier fathers? By the way, it's estimated that up to 20% or even up to half the people fleeing Vietnam died trying.
You argue points by throwing out figures such as "America killed 2 million civilians", yet you can't back them up. If you noticed, I didn't ever give a figure for civilian casualties....becasue NOBODY can. Who's being more realistic here? When have I called you an idiot?
Interesting theory you have about North Vietnamese refugees flooding into the south to escape US bombing. Can you refernce a source for that information?
Funny that the South Vietnamese didn't flood North, isn't it?
Isn't it odd that people have been fleeing all of Vietnam since the fall of the south, even today.
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"Isn't it odd that people have been fleeing all of Vietnam since the fall of the south, even today"
Fleeing Vietnam even today? How about a percentage of those wanting to just move for business or other opportunities like anyone else? Why do they have to be "fleeing" that's a bit dramatic Nuke.
If you think it's odd that they have been fleeing the South ever since the end of the war don't you think it's more odd that the majority stayed? Wonder why that is..
...-Gixer
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Toad,
I really don't care on puzzling over that any more then the time it took you to entertain yourself by posting them or thinking to blink.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
You get it, you just choose to ignore it unless it is American.
...-Gixer
An example of your argument style, Gixer. And you call me arrogant?
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Originally posted by Gixer
"Isn't it odd that people have been fleeing all of Vietnam since the fall of the south, even today"
Fleeing Vietnam even today? How about a percentage of those wanting to just move for business or other opportunities like anyone else? Why do they have to be "fleeing" that's a bit dramatic Nuke.
If you think it's odd that they have been fleeing the South ever since the end of the war don't you think it's more odd that the majority stayed? Wonder why that is..
...-Gixer
Yeah, fleeing on boats not seaworthy is pretty dramatic. Millions fled Gixer, and it was not easy to do. They risked their lives and their families lives to escape.
Why don't you take some time to research the Vietnamese refugees and the floods that came in 1975-1978, again around 1980-1982 and again around 1992. Huge waves of them.
And you ask me why the majority stayed? I don't know and neither do you. What is known is that millions fled and it wasn't because the US was bombing them.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Yeah, fleeing on boats not seaworthy is pretty dramatic. Millions fled Gixer, and it was not easy to do. They risked their lives and their families lives to escape.
Why don't you take some time to research the Vietnamese refugees and the floods that came in 1975-1978, again around 1980-1982 and again around 1992. Huge waves of them.
Why don't you be a good chap and post the links for me and I'll deny them. :)
Sure there were 1000's,10,000's millions or what ever that did leave but majority stayed to rebuild the country didn't they? Or shall we just concentrate on the smaller perentage that fled along with the US military?
...-Gixer
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Say, Gixer; we're working on a new mapping program for GPS; you wouldn't wanna supply your precise coordinates for a quick test, woudja?
(http://www.airpower.at/news04/1114_pt/jdam.jpg)
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I don't have a GPS to give them to you at home but next time I go flying I'll try and make a note. But even with those I doubt you could point to where I was on a map since it's outside US. :)
...-Gixer
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You aqre correct, we have no maps of the innards of a sheeps Sphincter. However, if you tie a GPS transponder the tail of the sheeps bellybutton your hiding in, then we can conclude the test.
""
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Originally posted by Hangtime
You aqre correct, we have no maps of the innards of a sheeps Sphincter. However, if you tie a GPS transponder the tail of the sheeps bellybutton your hiding in, then we can conclude the test.
""
Ah the American way,if you don't like the opinion bomb it. And if I didn't bother turning the transponder on you'd just bomb all the sheep and still state "Mission Accomplished" LOL
...-Gixer
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Yup. 'course, since you wear a sheeps bellybutton for a hat, we'd mourn for the sheep.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup. 'course, since you wear a sheeps bellybutton for a hat, we'd mourn for the sheep.
I strongly doubt you'd mourn for the sheep since you don't bother keeping an official record of sheep casualties. And if anything came out in the future by the sheep farmers as to how many were killed you'd just deny it.
But all in the name of Democracy and protecting the Free World eh? :rolleyes:
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
I strongly doubt you'd mourn for the sheep since you don't bother keeping an official record of sheep casualties. And if anything came out in the future by the sheep farmers as to how many were killed you'd just deny it.
Yer right. I lied. We'd inflate the body count to justify the ordinance expenditures. But we'd send Sally Struthers to do TV Commercial appeals for the ophaned lambs while we slowly stoke up the international commodities price index on lamb chops.
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I just came back from Vietnam and Cambodia. I was there on my honeymoon, you may be surprised to read. Coincidentally we were there for the anniversary of the supposed 'liberation' of the south. I think things must have changed since Mr Bill's visit. Certainly some of the quotes ring true. But no one mistakes you for a Russian anymore. Kid's favourite question these days is 'How are you, where you from?' Naturally they have never heard of Ireland and say 'Ah Iceland'
The very first person I met in the immigration queue at Hanoi's airport was a veteran on his first visit back since he was blown up by a mortar bomb in 1970. Apparently many veterans re visit these days. One guide told me how touching it was to see these guys standing at the scene of their lost youth with tears in their
eyes.
We had three guides at different times during the trip, none were official government. All were fairly open about their attitude to the type of government they live under. None had much in the way of illusions. Contact with knowledgeable foreign tourists educated them to some extent.
Just a few impressions.
I could detect no anti American bias. In fact the only country to be criticised in any was....ahem France. I found the same in Cambodia interestingly. In fact they fear the Chinese would like to make Vietnam yet another province. Suspicion of the Chinese is considerable. They are not allowed to fly in or out of Vietnam and are restricted in many ways. A guide freely admitted that the government forced out many of the Chinese community in previous years. Many of those ethnic Chinese had large businesses. They were not so much fleeing the country as being expelled.
Fear of China is such that the amazing idea of the US military re-occupying Cam Ranh Bay was mentioned by all of the guides we met. Even by the stuffy Northern guide. He thought though that the main objection would be from the veterans who fought the Americans.
Speaking of veterans. There was a massive convoy of mini buses containing Vietnamese veterans retracing their advance in 1975. Ironically they were in Ford Transits. The NVA sponsored by an American company. Apparently these veterans receive a pension of $2 a month.
People are better off now since they opened the economy. Nearly everyone has a moped. The streets are absolutely clogged by them in spite of the fact that their price is artificially inflated by the government. $2000. Same with cars. There are lots of Toyota Camry's. They love the Camry. Crossing the street in any city is a nightmare. You must not run or stop. Just keep walking slowly so the bikes dodge around you. Most of the bikes and cars I saw were fairly new which seems to point to people having obtained their money recently. There is clearly a lot of money floating around alongside considerable poverty.
It's not a free country. They point out the goverment is no longer Communist because of the Capitalist economy. It's just repressive. There is a lot of corruption too. In every aspect of the economy. Millions are skimmed off every project. The Police have to be bribed when they stop you, but discreetly. They don't bother tourists though.
It is a beautiful country. Hanoi is interesting in parts. Hue is amazing. The citadel made famous during the Tet offensive is well worth a visit and still shows scars of the battle. Da Nang is dull and uninteresting. We didn't see China Beach. But we went to Hoi An which has fabulous beaches and hotels as good as any resort you'll see in the world. The official name for Saigon nowdays is Ho Chi Minh city but everyone still calls it Saigon. The Cu Chi tunnels are fascinating. The area is still pockmarked with bomb craters. Ironically one the chief guides for the tunnels is ex ARVN. I got to fire an AK47 for the first time.
Of our three guides only one actually served in the army. The others dodged it for various reasons. The one who did served in Cambodia. He proudly reckoned he had killed nearly 50 Khymer Rouge. Despite all this he considered the celebrations for the 30th anniversary as a complete waste of money. You should have heard him and our driver laughing at a mock up tank intended for a parade.
I visited the war museums in Hanoi and Saigon. They have a Mig 21 which supposedly shot down a number of US aircraft. It's badly neglected. Ironically nearby is a UH1D in immaculate condition wrongly painted as US AIR FORCE. It's the same in Saigon. They display a Skyraider, an F5A, a T37 and a Cessna U17 painted in badly applied US markings when clearly they were originally South Vietnamese. They don't like talking about the 'puppet' goverment. In Hanoi, what made a big emotional impact on me was the sight of flight helmets stacked in a display case. It left me wondering as to the fate of the owners.
One day in Saigon I heard a familiar whop whop sound. A Huey, still in service after all these years. The only other aircraft I saw flying were two Mi8's near Hanoi. Although there were several Migs based at Hanoi's airport.
The famous Presidental Palace or 'Unification Palace' which featured in those famous pictures of the tanks crashing the gates has being preserved as it was in 1975. Seventies decor and all. It's an amazing time capsule. In the operations rooms in the cellars the the ORBAT for 1968 is on display. Virtually nothing has been touched. They even placed a Huey on the roof to represent the escape helicopter. This time correctly painted.
I could go on and on. But the main impression I was left with was that it is a country in a state of transition. Not free yet but will be eventually. Not rich yet but give them ten years.
The women are as beautiful as many a GI described them. If I wasn't on my honeymoon.................... .......
The whole trip was fascinating. It's changed my view of the country. I will no longer simply associate it with the war. Frankly they have been screwed royally by the French, the Americans and latterly by their own government. The worst thing that happened to them was winning the war. Not my words but theirs.
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Great read cpxxx.
Seems like a really cool place to go visit and it sounds like you had a great time.
Thanks for sharing.
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Eh thanks Nuke.........I think. !!
But it is well worth a visit. Safe for Americans as one guide pointed out. No terrorists!