Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on May 01, 2005, 12:02:23 PM
-
At first was against this "osty with 4x20s" -- because "base defense" can so easily be spelled "stagnation."
But after consideration, I think it could be a nice addition -- IF the vehicle were lightly perked. That would hold the numbers down some, and avoid tipping the balance too far towards the defense.
Advantages of the addition?
1. Low initial coding investment. Take Osty, remove 30mm data, add 4x20s and some duct tape. Job fininshed.
2. Would make roach hunting more... interesting. Watch the "FLAK" icon change to OST or WIRB when you get close... and be sure you know where the relief tube is.
3. Would (maybe?) help the AA learning curve , more rounds in the air to judge lead etc.
4. Adds to GV'ers game without the time and effort required subtracting meaningfully from the Air game improvements.
Disadvantages?
1. Increases AA lethality. SO -- the Air-to ground guys have to learn to drop sooner, which we probably should anyway. IRL, AA equipped areas were treated with great respect.
2. Potential disruption of paly balance. WEll, havaing it perked would help, and give the GV'ers something else to spend their perks on. And, if balance shifts too far, the perk cost could be adjusted. But, to be honest, I dont think a perked Wirbelwind would tip things far at all.
Well, that's off teh top of my head (not much up there anymore, but that;s another topic). Any thoughts?
-
I don't think the Whirblewind should be perked. It wouldn't be hard to kill if you have bombers on station and alert them to the whereabouts of the flak monster.
I have over 2,400 GV perks. I never use em. Can I trade em in for an upgrade? Anybody want some?
-
Perk value is affected by survivability, but also by lethality. 4x20mm cannons, with tight cone of fire and little convergence spread, are VERY lethal -- and so I feel are worth perking.
Without Wirbelwind perks, the Ostwind would become a hangar queen -- and most importantly, the base attack/air-to-ground balnce of power would shift decidedly. Since things are roughly in equal balance now, with an arguable tilt towards the aircraft, a major shift towards the GVs would likely result in game imbalance.
-
Great post Simaril,
First off the Wirbelwind wouldn't need to be perked, it's no more deadly than the Ostwind.
The Wirbelwind does not have reach the Ostwind has. The Wirbelwind is just as vunerable to enemy fire as the Ostwind, the turret which was nicknamed the "keksdose"- cookie tin, which only offered marginal protection for the crew.
The only big difference between the two is that the Wirbelwind can spit out more rounds per second {like the M16} but has fewer rounds per magazine {20 per mag} than the Ostwind.
If modeled correctly there would be reload time, like in a tank, a few sec's you could not fire.
It would be like having a N1k2 on the ground shooting up, I don't know of any pilots in the game that get on someone's six and shoot at them from 1.5 to 2.0k out. I doubt you would ever hit them. I'm not a 100% sure due to the fact I don't fly too often, I could be wrong here.
Next we have the issue of balance, you state might tip the balance too far towards the defence.
I would have to disagree, NOT because I'm in favor of the Wirbelwind, but due to the fact it is virtually imposible to stop an organized attack.
1) For fair to good defence {against enemy A/C} you need a minimum of 3-4 AA guns shooting at ONE target in order to be effective. If a bomber group {or two} happen to make it to the field and are low enough to be hit by Ostwinds or field guns, almost all guns have to be trained on that target to maybe bring it down. Meanwhile the other enemy A/C are strafing and bombing the ground targets into oblivion. A large number of these guys {you know who you are} can place a 250-500lbr right on top of a GV everytime.
2) Nine times out of ten there is not enough AA guns at a field, as most are in planes {most of the time} Keep in mind these are observations from my crew and other countrymen over the last 3 yrs in AH
3) The current field AA defense system is sub par at best, a decent to good pilot can de-ack the field in sec's {excluding Port ack} which brings me to another point. Why is it that so many "hate" going in on a port? because you have a lot of guns shooting at you. Which by the way is how it's spose to be, it is a place of high importance.
4) As it is right now there is almost nothing one can do for the most part to stop an organized or "horde" attack. The VH gets dropped almost immediately, low flying and dive bombing Lanc's, B17's, B26's and B24's can wipe out and carpet bomb an entire field in min's.
So if there's a complaint or issue with "balance" I would have to say it's definitely in favor of the enemy A/C and not the ground defense's.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Wirbelwind in the game, not because it's some kind of "Uber" weapon It just happens to be my favorite German veh of WWII.
I honestly don't think if it were in the game it would make that much difference to game play outcome, no more than the LA7 or Spit14 does. Think about it for a second, when's the last time you saw 15-20 LA7's attacking and taking an airfield? Thought so, yet it is one of the most talked about A/C in the game {and it's not even perked!!}
I would like to see all around better systems for defence, almost all would agree that it is better to have a tough challange to take a base than it is too just roll in, de-ack real quick, drop a couple hangers, kill the city, setup a vulch {vulch light on, remember this one} and take the base. Wash, rinse, repeat.
I'm not saying EVERYONE in the game plays like this, nor do I want people to play "my way". That would be boring.
I honestly believe that more players like a big fire fight at an airfield or base than simply steam-rollin' um.
We used to have some of the best fights in AH1 at fields with GV's all over, fighters duking it out overhead, tracer rounds flying all over the place, total white knuckle fighting. Friends and enemies alike would each other and we would have a ball. Sometimes we kept the field, sometimes we lost. But what a fight it usually was. Now a lot of times it just seems to be a big gang-bang land grab, cherry pick vulch vest slaughter house alt fight horde run type game than anything. I guess it's the persons right and it is their $14.95, so who am I to say.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, when you have a game based on "perks", "points" and "rank" that's just how people will play wrong, right or indifferent it's the truth. Not to mention it's all personal, "you shot down LTARmoil" now imagine if it said "you killed an enemy GV" or "you shot down a Zeke"
In WWII a pilot didn't get a message on his canopy telling him he shot down Cpt. Vonpickaname?
Oh well just a game;)
-
Originally posted by Simaril
Any thoughts?
i think i need a beer.
-
Furballs buyn :D
-
Moil well stated :aok
BTW, HTC sent out for more paper so u can finish :lol
-
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/145_1115009064_pz5a_lewo.jpg)
Whirbel Who?
Lets see some more Heavy Armor First.
-
Originally posted by Nefarious
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/145_1115009064_pz5a_lewo.jpg)
Whirbel Who?
Lets see some more Heavy Armor First.
Not a bad looking ride, what is it?
-
Just a king tiger of sorts...
Need a pershing.. sherman.. panther thats all i can think of :)
-
Where is my leopard 2?
-
Originally posted by MOIL
Great post Simaril,
First off the Wirbelwind wouldn't need to be perked, it's no more deadly than the Ostwind.
The Wirbelwind does not have reach the Ostwind has. The Wirbelwind is just as vunerable to enemy fire as the Ostwind, the turret which was nicknamed the "keksdose"- cookie tin, which only offered marginal protection for the crew.
I hear that, but osty turrents in AH aren't "cookie tin" easy to knock out.
The only big difference between the two is that the Wirbelwind can spit out more rounds per second {like the M16} but has fewer rounds per magazine {20 per mag} than the Ostwind.
If modeled correctly there would be reload time, like in a tank, a few sec's you could not fire.
That reload delay would be critical in making the vehicle less than Uber.
...snip...
Next we have the issue of balance, you state might tip the balance too far towards the defence.
I would have to disagree, NOT because I'm in favor of the Wirbelwind, but due to the fact it is virtually imposible to stop an organized attack.
Key word here is ORGANIZED. An organized attack will always have an advantage over the usual swarm of AH individuals. Organized attacks are frankly rare.
...snip...
I have said it before and I'll say it again, when you have a game based on "perks", "points" and "rank" that's just how people will play wrong, right or indifferent it's the truth. Not to mention it's all personal, "you shot down LTARmoil" now imagine if it said "you killed an enemy GV" or "you shot down a Zeke"
In WWII a pilot didn't get a message on his canopy telling him he shot down Cpt. Vonpickaname?
Good point; though I'd argue that the game is NOT "based on" rank. It's based on a simulation model, and those numebrs are there for people who care about them. Some use them as ego boosters; some as yardsticks for their own development, kind of a "personal record" tracker; some never look at them (so they say). The perks work rto give freedom (to fly anything) without shifting the play balance (by having an arena of 50% spit Vs and 50% 262s, with only tigers on the ground).
Oh well just a game;)
Agree 110% -- but WHAT a fun one!!!
-
Originally posted by MOIL
Not a bad looking ride, what is it?
You mayka me laff.
'
Seriously, this would be a great next fresh model IMHO. Probably worth coming out with the T-34/85 first though, with modelling partly done already.
-
out of all this no one posted a pic of the osti from h3ll but i agree with moil. alot dont want to see it come to AH cause they know that there will be some people that know how to shoot it its no diffrent then an osti if anything you have more advantage over it then an osti cause it does not have the same range. and yes i would love to see some more tanks be brought into the game. T-34s are over rated take a panzer any where from 3 to 10 hits to kill it and thats not even true in ww11 its turret was the only thing strong about it a panzer could but a hole in its side. tigers they are ok need some adustements but over all they are ok.
-
Like Simaril said, why would anyone take an Ostwind if the Wirbelwind was unperked? Besides its one hit kill ability, the Ostwind has nothing on the Wirbelwind.
-
this 88mm manable would work better, if vh up vulchers would run like cockroaches and stop the cocktail of dogfights/vulch/low alt bombing over the bases
(http://www.naritafamily.com/Scalemodel/reference/Aberdeen/Flak36/Flak36_01.JPG)
-
Originally posted by YUCCA
Just a king tiger of sorts...
ERRRR....The Correct Answer was Panther.
-
i totaly agre ghi and nice pic btw
-
Originally posted by Nefarious
ERRRR....The Correct Answer was Panther.
LOL :lol
-
Originally posted by Tarmac
Like Simaril said, why would anyone take an Ostwind if the Wirbelwind was unperked? Besides its one hit kill ability, the Ostwind has nothing on the Wirbelwind.
Because of range, the Wirbelwind has approx 1/2 to 3/4 the range of an Ostwind. Second, it's NOT a one hit kill {unless the plane is already damaged maybe} It fires 20mm cannon rounds not 37mm HE rounds.
Simaril:
"I hear that, but osty turrents in AH aren't "cookie tin" easy to knock out"
I don't know how much time you spend in an Ostwind, but we spend a lot of time in them. The turret on an Ostwind is extremely easy to disable.
-
It doesn't take much to take out an Osti turrent. There's times I've been peppered with 20mm cannon and gotten through it unscratched. Other times 1 ping from a 303 takes out the turrent. Unfortunitly the later applies more often than not. Point being...the Osti was well known for it's thinly armored turrent...it's the nature of the beast.
But it's still fun.....and isn't that what its all about?? :)
-
Here ya go LTARkilz
(http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/Wirbelwind-02.jpg)
(http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/Wirbelwind-01.jpg)
(http://www.jagdtiger.de/GermanTanks/Wirbelwind-10.jpg)
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/wirbel.jpg)
-
ghi:
"this 88mm manable would work better, if vh up vulchers would run like cockroaches and stop the cocktail of dogfights/vulch/low alt bombing over the bases"
Not really ghi, the German 88 is an awesome weapon for AA and AT work. However, it takes a little while to deploy and is best used on A/C over 3000' mainly bomber formations.
The fields and cities would best be served by using single and twin mount 40mm Bofors platforms, quad mounts are nice, but usually found on ships and carriers.
(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoforsL60.jpg) (http://www.battlefront.co.nz/images/newbpics/swed-bofors-40mm.jpg)
(http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5397/40mm2.gif)
-
Originally posted by ghi
this 88mm manable would work better, if vh up vulchers would run like cockroaches and stop the cocktail of dogfights/vulch/low alt bombing over the bases
(http://www.naritafamily.com/Scalemodel/reference/Aberdeen/Flak36/Flak36_01.JPG)
Im sure you would have a hardon that would last for weeks, if not months if we got this.
You are anoying enough in one of these things at a CV.
I luv ya man, but god you get to me when im 8k out fighting another fighter, no threat to your CV and get plastered by you in a CV gun.
-
OK, enough with the fantastic pics......going to end up with an accidental discharge :lol
-
that rokit guy is a nut aint he hehehehe. ty moil great pics
-
Nut Case......would be the proper term. Get it right :cool:
-
hehehehe need a stray jacket there :rolleyes:
-
Quad 40's....were they ever placed on tracks??
-
Its like this, i would rather hit a plane with a few 20mm hits than i would watch round after round after round buzz by my target.
I would rather hit my target one time with a 20mm than have all my ammo pass by them because of slow rate of fire.
Also in aces high a 20mm can do major damage,can knock wingtips off, puts holes in your wings, can hit a vital spot and kill you just as easly, AND because there is x3 more guns, the hit scale climbs big time.
problem with ALL of aces high's aaa is the fact th guns fire to slowly, are to few on a base to be effective to stop a horde, and above all SUCK ASS..talk about not being able to hit the side of a flying barn.
and in other games,i dunno why it feals like the aaa gets upto your plane faster,even at 2-3k. where as aces high the rounds just "float" up to you,and slowly pass by, you can dodge around the aaa in aces high.
Would be nice to see a few .50's in a few spots, because its not about overall damage,it about the pilot still fealing hes in danger, keeping his plane ducking and weaveing knowing the next tracer could be the pilot hit,or engine hit he doesnt want, aces high has ZERO pilot to aaa fear. just keep the plane turning and twisting,and aaa doesnt stand a chance. thats just crap.
-
Originally posted by LTARokit
Quad 40's....were they ever placed on tracks??
What do you mean tracks? Like on train car on the tracks?
-
i bekieve that tank was a panther
-
bad i dont fear the ack guns but i do fear the osti and most fear our ostis so i dont agree with most you said
-
Originally posted by Morpheus
[.
I luv ya man, but god you get to me when im 8k out fighting another fighter, no threat to your CV and get plastered by you in a CV gun. [/B]
Morpheus, Sorry but sometimes is fun to drink a beer, on 5" gun, i feel like on Cruise ship.
Last evening i was fighing knits at A130, same #s bish nits around base, i was low on fuel and landing, b4 i stoped, i heard screaming engine closing, and BOOM !!!
Sistem.pacerr shoot you down,
after few min he landed 4 in some kind of FW190
I was thinking screw this front line i go south, fun furball around A111, i scratch 4 in G10, only few rook planes around base, mostly bish, i go for landing, b4 my plane stoped, i heard same screaming eng. diving on the base and BOOM !!!
Sistem: SHawk shoot you down
after few min he landed 7 in D9
Now you undestand why i need those 88mm?? those kind of veterans players vulching landing planes at high speed for score pss me off:
-
I stand corrected Ghi.
Yeah, that'd pss me off.
-
What if we just get a mob of players togeather and go burn down SHawk's house? That way we woudln't have to deal with these mannable 88mm on every damn field, and you wouldn't get picked landing so much.
-p.
-
There's another angle on the ack range question. While an experienced, LTAR kinda guy may be able to reliably hit with 37s at long range, deficiencies in 'net latency and ranged gun skill means most of us are lucky to ping with a 37 at even much closer ranges.
However, the volume of fire from even ammo limited 4x20s will allow even run of the mill players like me to be lethal in ground acks. Thus, Wirbelwinds are likely to dramatically increase the NUMBER of ack deaths, even if they dont cause the LTAR kill rates to skyrocket.
By analogy: Highly trained special forces may be deadly with precision sniper rifle, but you're likely to get more kills by handing an M2 0.50 cal gun to the average grunt.
I still think this thing should be perked, even if the turret is that vulnerable.
-
What needs to be done way before we ever put mannable 88's on the field is to get rid of the radar exploding shells. It needs to be difficult. I.E. Timers on those fuses.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
What needs to be done way before we ever put mannable 88's on the field is to get rid of the radar exploding shells. It needs to be difficult. I.E. Timers on those fuses.
_____________________________ _________________
Radar shells ?? :confused: Not sure what that is....but I want some :)
-
i agree ghi i hate being picked off while landing that suks
i got the torch Pellik if you got the beer
timers fuses sxploding shells makes me :D just thinking about it
Simaril i agree, keep the ostis and lightly perk the Wirbelwinds but again you got to think about all of those gvers that have 2000-4000 perk points:aok
-
Simaril,
Good points I guess, I do understand what your saying. Maybe it should be "perked" a little to prevent overuse or abuse.
I honestly beleive also that if it were added to the ground vehicle line up it wouldn't be the GV of all GV's that some might think it will be.
Just the same, I know there are certain planes in the game that are not "perked" and in the hands of a good pilot land many kills per sortie. I use the Fw190 for example, there are a few guys {we know who they are} that just rack up the kills in this A/C. Due to easy mode flying A/C? or a good overall plane in the hands of someone that has spent some time in the saddle and knows how to use it?
If this was the plane of all planes, then everyone would be flying it, that's just not the case. I think people will get a kick out of the Wirbelwind if it were added because it's a new toy. I think this will wear off quickly because:
1. There is only a small percentage of us dedicated GV guys
2. They realize real quick just how hard it is to hit an A/C with an AA gun
3. Prob won't spend the time needed to become proficient in the equipment
4. It won't be anymore feared than the Tiger or T34, in fact there is usually a lot more Panzers on the ground than Tiger's or T34's
Perk it if you must I guess.
Thanks for the input!
-
Radar Shell?? :confused: No answer on descript, draw own conclusions:
Radar Shell........shell launched from varity of weapons...during mid air flight mini radar dish pops up zeros in on target.....Unreliable--WW II version unable to determine nme target can hit friendly.
Signature Shell.......shell launched from varity of weapons.....stops prior to impact, requires intended target's signature prior to detonation....Unrealiable--only works on newbees.
Smart Shell......can be found on the beach (ocean side) if placed next to your ear you.......................... .....................never mind :cool:
-
Rokit your such a dolt:rolleyes:
You can get info on Vt fuze's Here (http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq96-1.htm)
-
I duno, if i have a formation of bombers over my head, i would much rather have 4 rapid fireing 20mm, vs one slow fireing strong cannon,after all a few 20mm can still knock the wingtip off of a bomber. Heck just aim in that direction,and wait as the bombers run into your shells, at least its some damage for the not so great gv gunner.
Note: how MOST people dont fly blindly head on at a m16, they always attack it high,and from behind.
Im willing to bet my left nut you would have to be a mad man to try and do a head on with x4 20mm's being spat your way.
The main thing is it would be WAY more effective to down fighter planes in, lets face it..diving lancs and b17/24's are one thing,but 3-6 heavy armed fighter planes can do just as much damage,and take the fight to the planes trying to up in the onslaught.
WE NEED MORE MANABLE .50's on base's also.
Would make players think twice before vulching a already badly hurt base. Would also force more planes to do more real bombing runs,not this 800 ft off the deck and drop bs, jeez how hard :rolleyes:
-
i thought A20s were ment to take out the gvs so it bombs at 800 feet
-
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
ay.
WE NEED MORE MANABLE .50's on base's also.
Would make players think twice before vulching a already badly hurt base. Would also force more planes to do more real bombing runs,not this 800 ft off the deck and drop bs, jeez how hard :rolleyes:
Don't forget the orbiting Lancs, doing the Vietnam Spooky thing.
And you can hose them with a quad .50 and see the hits and still be lucky if one even catches fire, let alone blow up. It's hard to get a truck to d200 where the .50s can do real damage. :mad:
-
Originally posted by MOIL
Because of range, the Wirbelwind has approx 1/2 to 3/4 the range of an Ostwind. Second, it's NOT a one hit kill {unless the plane is already damaged maybe} It fires 20mm cannon rounds not 37mm HE rounds.
Simaril:
"I hear that, but osty turrents in AH aren't "cookie tin" easy to knock out"
I don't know how much time you spend in an Ostwind, but we spend a lot of time in them. The turret on an Ostwind is extremely easy to disable.
I'll rephrase. The Osty has a one shot kill advantage over the Wirb, but that's it. Of course the range is longer on an Osty, but most players can't hit crap over d1.5 with one anyhow so range isn't a big advantage.
-
Originally posted by SEgunner
I don't think the Whirblewind should be perked. It wouldn't be hard to kill if you have bombers on station and alert them to the whereabouts of the flak monster.
I have over 2,400 GV perks. I never use em. Can I trade em in for an upgrade? Anybody want some?
thats the whole reason i say more things should be perked...
GIVES a use to the perks you earn.
you earn ya perks to fly your fave planes.
-
Well then, I guess I'll have to agree with Tarmac and Overlag on this one.
Let the perking begin:eek:
-
Did I miss somthing here? I we even getting a Wirbelwind?
-
Originally posted by Kegger26
Did I miss somthing here? I we even getting a Wirbelwind?
I we even ???
Anyways, I and many others would certainly like to see {some not} the Wirbelwind added to the GV line up, but I'm not holding my breath.
Were basiclly just discussing ideas and input "IF" this vehicle were introduced.
I'm going to try bribing next:aok
-
It seems to me that the real question regarding perkability is how much risk of play imbalance should be taken. Perking minimizes the risk of changes; nonperking, at worst, means the balance is shifted toward defense -- and if the shift is disturbing, then the things can always be perked.
Either way works in the long run.
And, as to whether this ever moves past theoretical bantering on the BBS -- I again "vote" in favor of adding this vehicle to the hangar!!
-
Originally posted by Simaril
It seems to me that the real question regarding perkability is how much risk of play imbalance should be taken. Perking minimizes the risk of changes; nonperking, at worst, means the balance is shifted toward defense -- and if the shift is disturbing, then the things can always be perked.
Either way works in the long run.
And, as to whether this ever moves past theoretical bantering on the BBS -- I again "vote" in favor of adding this vehicle to the hangar!!
Well I guess the more I look at it, I would have to agree that to start it would be best to "perk" this vehicle.
I guess I just don't see it being anymore disruptive than the Tiger tank or the B24's
My 2 cents
PS. I too vote for the Wirbelwind:aok
-
guys all of you got to remember there are some people on this game that does not care about perk points that play this game just for the fun and to help thier country so some of the good players dont have perks or very little so no i dont think it should be perked to bad i think it needs a little perk nothing like the tiger or 262 and your talking about unbalanced my fighter perks are 189 my bomber perks are 1200 my gv perks are 3600 and i know many that are like that so does that make the game unbalanced to you :confused:
-
Originally posted by LTARkilz
guys all of you got to remember there are some people on this game that does not care about perk points that play this game just for the fun and to help thier country so some of the good players dont have perks or very little so no i dont think it should be perked to bad i think it needs a little perk nothing like the tiger or 262 and your talking about unbalanced my fighter perks are 189 my bomber perks are 1200 my gv perks are 3600 and i know many that are like that so does that make the game unbalanced to you :confused:
Kilz --let me introduce you to a few more keys
.
,
?
!
:lol
-
give them their silly gvs but not in the expense of plane development.
throw it in for a couple of weeks, if it unbalance the arena perk it if not, dont.
here problem solved, now give me my cliped wing spit9! :D
-
Simaril forgot these
@
#
$
%
:D