Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: PakRat on January 16, 2001, 06:09:00 PM
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These are images created with the Persistence of Vision ray tracer. The 800 x 600 image on the top won the 1998 International Ray Tracing Competition. But I think it is just a tease for what is coming to online simming... eventually.
I re-rendered the image in 1024 x 768 plus added a couple of extra planes and changed the perspective slightly. That is the image on the bottom. Both link to their respective larger versions.
Note - re-rendered it while I was at work today. Switched back to their perspective since it really does frame the action better. Going to drop in another torpedo bomber a little lowe r and nearer and try again but here is today's version. This is just too cool.
(http://home.att.net/~AHPakRat/strikesmo.jpg) (http://archive.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1998-12-31/strike.jpg) (http://home.att.net/~AHPakRat/strikesm.jpg) (http://home.att.net/~AHPakRat/strike.jpg)
As you can see, anyone can pull down the software (FREE), grab the source files for this and many other images, change and re-render the image in any resolution you want - it is pretty damn easy but takes a bit of time. The 1024 x 768 image took 7 hours. The guys said it took 59 hours to render the 800 x 600 image on Pentium II 200's.
More details on POV HERE (http://www.povray.org/)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Wow! Beautiful!
Is there a link for a larger version? Would make a nice desktop.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
(http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org/image/sbmlogo2.gif)
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hmmm....my bid for Min sys req would be:
2-4 gb of hard disk space to accomadate entire game
512mb or ram
256mb of video memory
4.0 ghz processor
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My Great Uncle was at Pearl Harbor. THAT'S HIM ON THE DECK OF THAT DESTROYER!! Wow great image! What else can you say but wow!
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Sandman,
This is the version as posted. However, a lot of the images submitted to the contest also include the source code. I haven't checked but if the source is available, you could render it in whatever resolution you want using POV Ray. The software is freeware so all one needs to do is download and install.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Sandman - I checked and the source code for the Pearl Harbor image *is* available. I'm downloading it now. Anyone interested can get POV Ray for free HERE (http://www.povray.org/) and a lot of images and source code is available HERE (http://www.irtc.org/).
The source code to the Pearl Harbor image is HERE (http://oz.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1998-12-31/strike.zip)
I'll see if I can render it here. Kind of curious how fast this new system will do something this complicated.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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OK, it's off topic - but check these out. Also done with POV Ray. These images link to bigger images. Tons more at http://www.irtc.org (http://www.irtc.org)
(http://www.irtc.org/stills/1998-12-31/afrog.jpg) (http://oz.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1998-12-31/afrog.jpg)
(http://www.irtc.org/stills/1999-04-30/13hystri.jpg) (http://oz.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1999-04-30/13hystri.jpg)
(http://www.irtc.org/stills/1999-04-30/lake.jpg) (http://oz.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1999-04-30/lake.jpg)
(http://www.irtc.org/stills/1998-02-28/14t.jpg) (http://oz.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/1998-02-28/14t.jpg)
(http://www.irtc.org/stills/2000-04-30/gt_city.jpg) (http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-04-30/gt_city.jpg)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Thanx Pakrat.. downloading software now... I'll post a link for a larger version if anyone is interested.
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Hey Sandman....
I tried rendering the scene but it didn't work - some files are missing. So I read the, um, er, directions... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There is a readme.txt file in the Strike.zip archive. It points you to a Geocities website where you can get all the files. Guess they made the zip file too big.
The url for the rest of the Strike files is http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9193/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9193/index.html)
Pulling them down now. Looks very cool - the 3D descriptions to all the ships and planes are at the Geocities website. Can play around with this stuff, add more planes, etc.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Wow - check this out - also at the Geocities site - a map of Pearl.
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9193/Source/POVfiles/PHcolormap01.gif (http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/9193/Source/POVfiles/PHcolormap01.gif)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
hmmm....my bid for Min sys req would be:...
Wobble - I'll bet you're waaaay low. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There is a text file that explains it took 59 hours on Pentium 200s (some were 166 / some 233) to render this scene!
I guess it's a loooong way in the future.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Sandman! I got it working. Rendering a Zeke right now and it is freaking awesome!
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Yeah... got it working here also... sort of... I can't get the Strike.POV file to run though.
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Just sent you e-mail. You want to load the strike.ini file and render that one.
What's cool is that now that it is working, we can render the scene from other angles and change our viewpoint! This is too much.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-16-2001).]
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Nice!
Please note the U.S.S. Nevada...
Only BB to get underway, with a J.G on the bridge and a CPO at the helm, I think.
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Ok...Stop and think where we were in 1991. >>>>Now forward to 2001. Folks, we have come a long way.
The future is closer that you think. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Oz
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332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
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Rendering away! It's running at 45-48 pixels per second so it should only take 4-5 hours to do this image at 1024 x 768 resolution. It's 4% complete on second pass from a 2x2 preview.
CPU is AMD T-Bird running at 928 MHz on Abit KT7 MB, 256 Meg RAM at 103 MHz FSB.
Also found out the strike.pov file already has a bunch of alternate camera locations so that the different ships and scene components could be previewed / adjusted.
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Thanks for the email, Pakrat... I've got it running. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Xcellant picture..I now have it as my wallpaper..thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yup OZ, the beginning of the 90's compared to today is quite...(falcon3 came out in 92 if I remember well)
Picture Falcon 3 and Take any of the sims out today...we have gone a long way.
Intel declared to have 5-Gigs CPU's out on the Market in about 4 years from now (with their 3micron Technology).
Saw<--- already picturing himself, strapped in a G-Suit in front of his desk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Yep, the next ten years are going to be exciteing!
A friend was just teling me about a magazine article he read where they are doing printed circuits on plastic film useing special inks and an off the shelf bubblejet printer.
LED's, memory cells, seems the sky is pretty much the limit and the curcuits ran on VERY low power levels. Seems the possiblities are endless. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I'm sure it will come - and video processors like the GEForce and Voodoo line are sure to factor tremendously. But seeing images of this caliber in a video sim will still be a little ways away. My 1024 x 768 rendering took 7 hours. Need lots of advances to get that to where it will display at 40 frames/second. That's only an increase of about 1,000,000-fold.
I got into this game quite a while back with a 1 MHz, 48k byte Apple II (I think it was 1 MHz - I know the original IBM PCs were 4.77 MHz) and the original floppy version of SubLogic's Flight Simulator (Before Microsoft took them over). I'm now running a significantly more efficient and powerful processor that is 928 times faster. Even without the architecture differences, there has been a 1000-fold increase right there (give or take for bus speeds, etc). I'd figure the architecture adds at least 100-fold.
With technology increasing at faster and faster rates, it is definitely possible in the next 10-20 years or so we could see this level of quality in a consumer flight sim. Should also have full virtual reality to go along with it - head tracking, force feedback body suit, virtual instrument panels, etc.
The possibilities just boggle the mind. Hook me up!
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
[This message has been edited by PakRat (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Hi Packrat,
if you're a POV nut (seems like you are... I used t0 be) you might like trying Blender too. You can find it at http://www.blender.nl/ (http://www.blender.nl/)
Its about the only freeware 3D modelling and rendering suite you can get, and it's worth the download. Every bit as powerful/capable as Lightwave in the right hands, and if you can get your head around POVray you can handle Blender. And it renders a LOT faster, uses OpenGL well.
*S* and regards.
Jay.
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5-10 years and we playing like this in AH v3.13.
I'm glad this is the goldenage off technologie.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hi Jay,
Thanks for the heads-up! I'll check out Blender for sure. What I would like to find an easy way to get CAD files into these types of programs as I have a lot of drawings and detailed photos of WWII aircraft that I can scan, import, and convert to vector form (and have some).
As for POV, I am extremely impressed by what it can do but am no expert by any means. I can mimic like a bandit though and since the files look a lot like C code, it's pretty easy to follow. All the real work was done by the guys that did the original image(obviously). Have yet to create a single scene from scratch. But I can sure get results fast this way! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hi Packrat,
I DID learn to do scenes from scratch, learned the script and started to play with it. Follow the tutorials that come with it, they're very good. By the end of it, I was doing animations in there too: wasn't hard, you just build in a time-variable that affects movement of objects in the scene.
That being said, I got lazy and started to use MORay for a bit, which is like a 3D graphic interface for POVray. The worst thing was I lost my animation ability, which is why I started using it in the first place.
But Blender... Now THERE'S a program. Last I checked, it handled cad-like DXF's very well... So there's yet another reason to check it out. be sure to save as a .blend file though: they bigger the DXF, the longer it takes to process it.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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Man I remember when Chuck Yeager's Test Flight came out for the Commodore 64. It seems like it was not that long ago. Must have been about 1986? Then the Lucas Arts sims BOB and SWOTL around 1990. The I went to AW around 1996. I thought the graphics in each of them was so cool. Looking back they were so primative. It seems like they get better by the minute.
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Man I remember when Chuck Yeager's Test Flight came out for the Commodore 64. It seems like it was not that long ago. Must have been about 1987? Then the Lucas Arts sims BOB and SWOTL around 1992. Then I went to AW around 1996. I thought the graphics in each of them was so cool. Looking back they were so primitive. It seems like they get better by the minute.
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*grin*
JimDandy,
I remember watching that opening sequence in SWOTL thinking "GOD!!! Its like I'm really there!! Look at the smoke from the rockets!! Look at the color of the B17!" and then I'd ignore the fact that the land was flat, period, and the planes rapidly turned into collections of big squares if you got too close to them. Of course, from inside the cockpit (or the turrets) you didn't notice that stuff so much. It was in 256 color, though. You can't beat that!
Lucasarts also released a Pacific theatre sim before BOB, but having played SWOTL first, there just was NO going back to that level of simplicity.
For something different, Churck yeager's combat sim was quite good... complete with envelop windows that popped up and resplendant 16-color goodness. It wasn't SWOTL, but it had kickin' ACM missions.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
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woops, brain fart.
Thanks Pakrat! Cool pic.
[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 01-17-2001).]
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Been playing with this and now I see why there ain't that many planes in the image. The transparent props and canopies *really* slow down the rendering. Well, I added a bunch of planes and now after rendering all night, expecting to see a finished picture this AM, it's only 20% done. Not too bad - and it looks pretty damn awesome - but sloooow. I guess it might be done by tonight when I get home from work. Or maybe not - 7 hours and 45 minutes to render 19% of the image! OK, maybe it'll be done tomorrow afternoon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Will post it up top when it's done.
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Very neat image. The consensus of this thread so far, however, is that we won't be seeing this kind of quality anytime soon in real time flight sims. Allow me to insert my 2 cents worth in the form of arguements to the contrary.
The attributes of the POVray image that pop out are 1) smooth rounded surfaces, 2) reflections, and 3) high complexity (high surface count). Ray tracing inherently handles all of these easily but it is a slow technique that isn't likely to be ever used for real time rendering. Real time sims are based on software, or nowadays, hardware accelerated Gouraud shaded tesellated surface rendering techniques but there are tricks available that allow rapidly rendered images to approach ray traced like quality.
Current sims don't come anywhere near utilizing what modern 3D cards like the GeForce offer. AH doesn't even make use of the Transform and Lighting acceleration of the GeForce. Current GeForce cards can render 30 million polygons per second. That means at 30 frames per second each frame can have a million polygons. With more polygons you can make smoother aircraft renderings as well as add higher terrain complexity. I grabbed a frame from Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulator II of a zero in the same orientation as the POVray rendering. It looks 'almost' as good as the ray traced zero (unfortunately, I don't know how to paste images into these posts). The scenery in CFS II looks even better than the scenery (ground) in the POVray image. Note: CFS II makes use of the GeForce hardware transform and lighting and I had all quality sliders at max to grab the image. Still the frame rate was very smooth.
If you check out Nvidia's web page you'll see many examples that make use of the various tricks to create realistic looking reflections and water. The water, waves, and reflections in the POV ray image could probably be done in real time with GeForce 2 card using these reflection mapping and bump mapping techniques.
The Nvidia page also has examples of 'worlds' with very high polygon count. One example is a flight through a field of grass: over 10,000 blades of grass are rendered in real time and each moves in the breeze. Each blade is made of many polygons so the card is rendering millions of polygons per second. Obviously this is only possible with the T&L hardware acceleration of the GeForce. This demo also includes realistically rendered reflective water (puddles).
So why doesn't Aces High have higher quality rendering? Well I can think of two reasons. First, the designers are, of course, aircraft fanatics and that shows in the fact that the aircraft, especially the latest ones like the TBM and Ju-88, are, in fact, pretty highly detailed. The designers are not, however, closet architects or geologists and therefore don't have as much interest in making complex buildings or terrain. The AH rendering engine is capable of much better terrain quality (as can be seen in several user generated terrains available for download). And, as mentioned above, MS CFS II has even more realistic terrain rendering. I am sure that much more complex buildings could be generated as well, but this is tedious and no one is asking for more complex cities (well... I would.. I buy boxed flight sims solely to fly around looking at the scenery).
The other limitation to rendered image quality is that the designers do not want to disenfranchise people that don't have the latest graphics cards and fastest CPUs.
In summary, available games take quite awhile to catch up with the capabilities of available graphics cards. When flight sims start to make full use of the abilities of current Nvidia GeForce and ATI Radeon graphics cards, then the resulting image quality could go a long way towards approaching the POV ray image starting this thread.
715
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Nite Flyer rendered the image at 1280x1024. Click the image to download.
(http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org/image/wallpaper/strikethmb.jpg) (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org/image/wallpaper/strike.jpg)
Oh... he said it took about 19 hours to render.
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 01-20-2001).]
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When recompiling the scene, anyone else get arial.ttf font file not found error?
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Copy the arial.ttf from your Windows/Fonts directory and place the copy in the same directory as the rest of "strike" files.
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This really is cool stuff - being able to render this kind of image on a home computer. Amazing!
715, you have some good points. I hope you are correct as the faster this kind of image appears on my screen in real time, the better!
I still think there will be delays though.
Even if top of the line systems could come close to this image now, there is still the software that needs to come up to speed and that won't happen until more people upgrade their computers.
I think HTC said they are still texture limited by the people with the low video RAM display cards and I know they are limited by the people flying with the slower computers.
But it's coming. This kind of stuff is just too tempting to resist. I can guarantee you that if someone was to offer an online sim with an exact duplicate feature set of AH but this kind of image quality, people would switch that had the systems capable of running it. That kind of pressure has to be in everyone's thoughts - HTC, iEN, Cornered Rat, etc.
As it is right now, people complain about the frame rate hits from smoke, etc, with a much less complicated image.
Jay - going to pull down Blender today. Thanks again!
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Pakrat,
hope you enjoy it... there's lots of good tutorials out there for blender, find the link to "Rash's Tutorial Index" from the blender page.
Jay.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
[This message has been edited by Frosty1 (edited 01-20-2001).]
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I don't believe this, i just wrote a post that took me 45 minutes to write and it's gone!!!!! DAMNIT TO HELL!!!!!! Oh well, screw it.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by Jay_76:
*grin*
JimDandy,
I remember watching that opening sequence in SWOTL thinking "GOD!!! Its like I'm really there!! Look at the smoke from the rockets!! Look at the color of the B17!" and then I'd ignore the fact that the land was flat, period, and the planes rapidly turned into collections of big squares if you got too close to them. Of course, from inside the cockpit (or the turrets) you didn't notice that stuff so much. It was in 256 color, though. You can't beat that!
Lucasarts also released a Pacific theatre sim before BOB, but having played SWOTL first, there just was NO going back to that level of simplicity.
For something different, Churck yeager's combat sim was quite good... complete with envelop windows that popped up and resplendant 16-color goodness. It wasn't SWOTL, but it had kickin' ACM missions.
*S* and regards,
Jay.
God those were the days. I hope we never go back. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) It was fun then though.