Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev367th on May 02, 2005, 01:02:19 AM
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Having done a little look into the performance -
Spit14 v 190D9
Almost identical top speeds.
190D9 better roll.
Spit 14 better turn.
So WHY THE HELL perk the Spit 14?
If one person can give me a single reason and then show that this doesn't apply to at least 1 other 'free' plane in the planeset I'd be grateful.
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I think it's climb rate is really good.
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Cuz u want it kev... :)
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Just two words....
CLIMB RATE!
If you use that... perk it .
If you fly it like another Spit... well... then youre right.
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schatzi!
where heck you been gal?
hope all is well.
edit: oops, no matter, just read squad board.
Italy eh?
you lucky devils!
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It is perked because it is RAF. duh.
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Speed of a 190, Good turn rates and the climb of a 109-G10.
Any reason not to perk it?
Tex
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If the spit14 was unperked, I would fly it almost exlusively.
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Originally posted by jodgi
If the spit14 was unperked, I would fly it almost exlusively.
So it would be like the la7? I don't think so. It's a fickle bird that really would not do well in the hands of most MA players. The SpitV would still see more use.
I say unperk it.
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Originally posted by Stang
So it would be like the la7? I don't think so...
Neither do I, it clearly doesn't have the run..... ..."extending" capabilities of the lala.
All I said was that I would use it a lot, but I also think it would see a lot of usage by many other players.
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Sure it doesnt have the run capability of the lala but it has the run capability of the Dora. Geee what a difference.
Add to that run capability maaaaaad accelleration and hence maaaad climb rate and seriously its a fantastic fleeeemobile.
Tex
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It doesn't have the run capability of anything close to the Dora. It's only fast at high altitude.
In the low altitude mess of the MA I believe the La7, D9, Tiffie, G10 and Pony are all faster otd, and that's what really counts for fleeing ability.
I need to find that speed chart of all the rides to be sure, but I think I'm right...
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It wont be running from an la7, d9, g10, p51 or tiffie under 10k. Should it run out of 5 mins of WEP half the MA will outrun it.:D I used to fly it but it got annoying that 90% of planes that would run from me in a spit IX would run from me in a spit 14.
The spit 14 has 728 kills and a k/d of 1.7 this tour. The spit 14 is always in the bottom 10 for useage, it would seem the majority in MA don't feel it's worth it's high perk value.
To me atleast the spit14 has stability issues. I don't believe the majority of spit pilots would move to the spit 14, it is a all together different bird- closer to a 109 than a earlier spit.
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it is perked like all mid 1944 or later are perked.
Bozon
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I belive in AH the Spit XIV climbs somewhat slower than in RL (5 mins to 20K)
A 109G2 climbs about the same.
A Spit VIII or IX(+25) climb to 20K in 5 mins also, - being slower than the Mk XIV they are nimbler if anything.
The VIII also has twice the range.
So, if those were to arrive one day, they'd have to be perked too!
The XIV is darned good, and IMHO needs to be perked. But the price is really too high.
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It should be perked. But not nearly as heavily as it is now. I think it should have a base cost of 15 or so.
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Originally posted by bozon
it is perked like all mid 1944 or later are perked.
Bozon
D9 was operational after the Spit XIV. P38L went operational after the Spit XIV for that matter. They were still flying early Js when the XIV got to the squadrons in early 44. Spit XIV was operational before the first 51Ds got to the squadrons. They didn't arrive until just prior to D-Day.
D9 didn't get there until October 44.
Don't think the mid-44 and after are perked idea works :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Just curious. Maybe someone can tell me.
Why are planes like the f4u4 which are monsters at high alt, or spit14 which is another awsome high alt fighter perked? We can't forget the Ta152, of which is the biggest dog in the MA unless your over 20k... Perked as much as they are...?
Of the prop plane perk list the only ones I can think of that are worth the perks are the Chog, and the tempest.
Maybe its just me, but I dont have the patience to get into an F4U4 and take it up that high, high enough where its advantages are seen. And if I were going that high I would surely choose my 51D over any of those listed above.
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I wouldnt at all mind a perk drop to the range of a C-Hog.
In fact I would like to see more planes in the "very light" perked cathegory. Ta-152 beeing one of them, La7 another. Just 5-15 perk points.
We have seen that it works to limmit the usage will still not making em virtually unused. After all we do see quite a few C hogs but not nearly as many as D Hogs.
Thats what Id like to see for the Spit14.
Tex
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Don't underestimate the Spit 14 though. It really is a monster of a plane anywhere.
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Originally posted by thrila
It wont be running from an la7, d9, g10, p51 or tiffie under 10k.
Why on earth would anyone try to run from those planes? With the exception of the 51, the rest are just free perk points :lol
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Spit14 is too expensive perked, Should be 50% or less of the price of temp,
same with f4u4- sold same price with temp, but all over less advatages
Ta 152 should't be perked, Who's fighting over 24-25k to take advatage of high alt speed? and for high alt bombers on HQ we have Me163s
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On the High Altitude figting, I likes it!
I have had a really engagueing fight last night
at around 20K with a slight altitude advantage
in my 190F-4 versus an adventurous Spit pilot.
I must say that high alt fights are quite exillarating!
After several merges and subsiquent evasions, my noble
foe had finally succumb to the fury of my cannons.
Though I love the work of Willie, For high altitude work
I have to side with my second favorite desighner Mr. Tank.
His TA-152H1 is when used properly in my opinion the finest high altitude fighter / bobmer intercepter on the war. Of course this is if one rembers to burn the tanks in the propper order. :aok
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Originally posted by ghi
Spit14 is too expensive perked, Should be 50% or less of the price of temp,
same with f4u4- sold same price with temp, but all over less advatages
Ta 152 should't be perked, Who's fighting over 24-25k to take advatage of high alt speed? and for high alt bombers on HQ we have Me163s
I'd have to agree with this entirely. Make the 14 about the same cost as the Chog. The biggest problem with flying it in older versions was the kill-me sign it had on it's head. With the new icon system (THANK YOU HTC!) that has been lessened considerably.
Make the 14, the 152, the Chog and the La7 all perked for around 10 points. Put the -4 at around 25 and the temp at about 40. Of course I'm a supporter of Kweassa's perk agenda so my vote doesn't count...LOL!
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I'd agree with a small perk on it - chogish. It's a great fighter but for the most part it's in the same class as the pony d, la7 and G10 IMHO (which I'd like to see a small perk price attached to as well). I wouldn't like to see it free because of its gun package but it isn't worth its current price.
asw
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Originally posted by detch01
I'd agree with a small perk on it - chogish. It's a great fighter but for the most part it's in the same class as the pony d, la7 and G10 IMHO (which I'd like to see a small perk price attached to as well). I wouldn't like to see it free because of its gun package but it isn't worth its current price.
asw
Gun package is no different from the Spit 9 with 2x20mm and 2x50 cal.
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How many people have actually flown the Spit 14 a lot?
It dominates everything even the La7 at all altitudes (as long as you don't rely on low speed acceleration).
So far, the only times I've died in it was when I accidentally upped it instead of the Spit 9 (was wondering why I was doing so well). Or just lawn darting.
It's a hellofa plane, but no where near worth what it's at now.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
How many people have actually flown the Spit 14 a lot?
It dominates everything even the La7 at all altitudes (as long as you don't rely on low speed acceleration).
So far, the only times I've died in it was when I accidentally upped it instead of the Spit 9 (was wondering why I was doing so well). Or just lawn darting.
It's a hellofa plane, but no where near worth what it's at now.
Not worth anywhere near its current price. HT has effectively made it another hanger queen. Usually for an extra 5 perks or so you can get a Tempest.
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it is over priced for what it is , perfomance wise .
a la la or dora can run it down if your not carefull in it .
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Originally posted by thrila
it would seem the majority in MA don't feel it's worth it's high perk value.
It's not the perk cost in itself that makes me avoid the spit14, or any other perk plane. It's the undivided attention you will get wandering in wearing the perk tag.
It's really a funny mechanism to watch; everyone is busy with their own business... a perk ride enters the scene, all the monkeys drop their bananas and embark on a collective holy grail quest to kill the perkie.
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Hah! thats funny. The whole dropping bannas thing.:rofl
Like every one trys to bag the roaming 262's :aok
(how do you differentiate one spit from a perked spit???):confused:
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
it is over priced for what it is , perfomance wise .
a la la or dora can run it down if your not carefull in it .
Also true of the 262. Or the Sr71 for that matter.
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Mid 44 ac I agree unperk it
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Gun package is no different from the Spit 9 with 2x20mm and 2x50 cal.
Except that it's faster, climbs better and zooms better. Good guns + good airplane = very good airplane: good guns + very good airplane = potential greatness. Hence the perk.
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Quote by kev, in requards to a ta152h-1 Vs. spitXIV
Yup it would be, Spits best defence is to get the fight really fast and twisty, and wait for one of those spindly wings to snap.
Don't fly the 14 as much as I would like to, it's just not worth 40 (average) perks.
_____________________________ _____________________
I personally have more confidence in the desighns of Kurt Tank,
The whole Ta152 concept is the 190d-9 series reaching fruition as a high altitude airial wepons platform.
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It seems like most of you guys complaining about how the spit14 is over-priced just don't know how to fly it. Like the tempest there are situations where this plane can just dominate, much beyond the level of planes like the la7. It's not as easy of a ride to learn as the tempest, granted, but it is still in a different league then other planes in the MA.
-p.
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Kev's argument is still why is the Spit XIV perked and the plane that was it's LW counterpart, the 190D9 a free ride.
Considering the XIV entered service before the D9, it doesn't make much sense .
But then again I'd say unperk em all. I'm not gonna fly em anyway :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
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His TA-152H1 is when used properly in my opinion the finest high altitude fighter / bobmer intercepter on the war. Of course this is if one rembers to burn the tanks in the propper order. :aok
Would you please let us (fairly) new people to the game know what the "proper order" of burning the tanks is?
Thank you!
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Originally posted by SKJohn
Would you please let us (fairly) new people to the game know what the "proper order" of burning the tanks is?
Thank you!
Empty the wings first or you can't roll, and they'll rip off at high G. That's the big part, other then that it's prefrence on where you like the weight to be in your plane.
-p.
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Originally posted by Angus
I belive in AH the Spit XIV climbs somewhat slower than in RL (5 mins to 20K)
A 109G2 climbs about the same.
A Spit VIII or IX(+25) climb to 20K in 5 mins also, - being slower than the Mk XIV they are nimbler if anything.
The VIII also has twice the range.
So, if those were to arrive one day, they'd have to be perked too!
The XIV is darned good, and IMHO needs to be perked. But the price is really too high.
Climb data for the top aircraft is as follows. This is based upon 300 mph on deck (25 ft), engage WEP and auto-climb. Time to 10k is recorded in minutes:seconds. Fuel at 75%, except P-38J and Ki-84, which were at 50% (comparable endurance). Zero fuel burn, except P-38L take off at 50%, fuel burn 2.0
109G-10: 1:46.18 (without gondolas, add 9 seconds if used)
Spit XIV: 1:47.13
109G-2: 1:54.06 (without gondolas, add 10 seconds if used)
F4U-4: 1:55.67
P-38L: 1:55.78 (about 35-40% fuel)
P-38J: 2:03.55
Ki-84: 2:04.09
190D-9: 2:04.35
Tempest: 2:05.38
La-7: 2:06.91
Yak-9U: 2:13.94
For maximum speed, it depends on altitude. For example, here's some actual game data for several fighters at their best altitudes.
F4U-4: 446 mph at 25,000 feet, 445 mpg at 28.5k, 439 mph at 20k.
Spit XIV: 444 mph at 28,500 feet, 441 mph at 25k, 420 mph at 20k.
109G-10:444 mph at 20,000 feet, 443 mph at 25k, 436 mph at 28.5k.
P-51D: 441 mph at 25,000 feet, 433 mph at 28.5k, 425 mph at 20k.
190D-9: 426 mph at 20,000 feet, 421 mph at 25k, 410 mph at 28.5k.
P-38J: 419 mph at 25,000 ft, 412 mph at 28.5k, 405 mph at 20k.
As to the Spitfire XIV, it is not a low altitude fighter. However, from about 10k on up, it is a very strong fighter. It can manage about 355 mph on the deck.
My regards,
Widewing
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after they unperk the 152, esp. considering its attitude in AH2 vs in AH1.
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Originally posted by ghi
Spit14 is too expensive perked, Should be 50% or less of the price of temp,
same with f4u4- sold same price with temp, but all over less advatages
Here's another guy who apparently hasn't flown the AH2 F4U-4...
Brother, if was the F4U-4B (four Hispanos), it would carry a 100 perk price. Yeah, the Tempest is a bit faster on the deck, and below 5k the Tempest accelerates a tad better too. Nonetheless, the F4U-4 easily out-climbs the Tempest, out rolls and out-turns it. The higher you go, the greater the difference. For example, at sea level the Tempest accelerates from 200 mph to 300 mph 2.4 seconds faster than the F4U-4. At 5k, the Tempest wins by 1.1 seconds. At 10k, the F4U-4 wins by 3 seconds. At 20k, the F4U-4 wins by 11 seconds.
If we swapped the gun packages, give 6 fifties to the Tempest, it would be a hanger queen. It's the combination of speed and guns that makes the Tempest so dangerous. However, 1 v 1, equal pilots... the Tempest is in deep bandini against the F4U-4.
Go to the TA and spend some time in the F4U-4. Then find someone to fly the Tempest and have a few fights. You will be surprised.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Here's another guy who apparently hasn't flown the AH2 F4U-4...
Brother, if was the F4U-4B (four Hispanos), it would carry a 100 perk price. Yeah, the Tempest is a bit faster on the deck, and below 5k the Tempest accelerates a tad better too. Nonetheless, the F4U-4 easily out-climbs the Tempest, out rolls and out-turns it. The higher you go, the greater the difference. For example, at sea level the Tempest accelerates from 200 mph to 300 mph 2.4 seconds faster than the F4U-4. At 5k, the Tempest wins by 1.1 seconds. At 10k, the F4U-4 wins by 3 seconds. At 20k, the F4U-4 wins by 11 seconds.
If we swapped the gun packages, give 6 fifties to the Tempest, it would be a hanger queen. It's the combination of speed and guns that makes the Tempest so dangerous. However, 1 v 1, equal pilots... the Tempest is in deep bandini against the F4U-4.
Go to the TA and spend some time in the F4U-4. Then find someone to fly the Tempest and have a few fights. You will be surprised.
My regards,
Widewing
At speeds above 300mph IAS it feels like the tempest has a much better instentanious turn then the 4-hog. It's not only faster and more deadly on the snapshot, it's more capable of getting the high speed snapshot.
I don't mean to be knockin the 4-hog tho. With the hog flaps and roll a little extra engine power makes this the best lag roll reverser there is.
-p.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Kev's argument is still why is the Spit XIV perked and the plane that was it's LW counterpart, the 190D9 a free ride.
Considering the XIV entered service before the D9, it doesn't make much sense .
But then again I'd say unperk em all. I'm not gonna fly em anyway :)
Dan/CorkyJr
Exactly Dan, and nobody ever will be able to come up with a viable reason.
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Psssst ... hey buddy ... c'mere ... yeah, over here by the hangar ... (glances furtively left and right) ... now, lissen carefully ... here's whatcha do ...
UNPERK EVERYTHING ... except Me262s ... and reduce their cost to 50 points instead of 200 ... thas right (giggling) ... no kiddin' ... lots more fun and lots less math!
Oh ... and don' forget external views for everythin too ... right, with firing disabled in external views so you can just have godlike view but not godlike destruction (as if ya could hit everythin anyway in or out of the cockpit) ...
Why dya think some are defectin to IL-2? Thas right ... purtier externals, more involvement, more scope ... yer choice, in or outa the cockpit ...
Me? nah, don' fly much anymore ... kinda bored after all these years ... but AH wunnerful game ... deserves ta live forever, wit or witout perks n' externals ....
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The F4U-4 and the Spit14 should be unperked.
Or, if they should need a light perk cost, then all of the late-war birds of comparable performance, should be perked at such prices as well.
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The 4-hog is a dominating aircraft at all alts. Only the Tempest equals it.
g00b
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I don't know. I could never get the F4u4 to perform anything special.
However the Spit 14, I'm almost untouchable.
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The biggest problem with the f4u-4 and the spit14 lay in the perk system itself. Basically for the new to average pilots 50-100 perks represents a relatively large amount of flying, thus there are high risks involved in losing these planes. When you're focused on survival you just don't push the plane to it's limits, and never really learn to understand it. By the time a pilot becomes good enough to really push a plane like this he has usually developed preferences toward some other ride anyway, and isn't going to really make the switch to a perk ride for much more then an occasional laugh. Thus the true capabilities of a ride like the spit14 remain almost completely unseen. In the case of the spit14 pilots just arnt aggressive in the turnfights, and if they are they use the moves they would expect to work in a spitV or IX which don't offer the same success in the XIV. They just discover it doesn't do as well in a flat turn, and decide it sucks. Or they never turn it and decide it's not really any better then a G10. But just because nobody takes the time to understand it now doesn't mean it's not considerably better then the unperked set.
I can give you guys a few hints on the perk planes though, in case you want to invest a few thousand perks to learning em.
Tempest: Fast, yes. Powerful guns, obviously. What makes this plane so deadly is that when you cut throttle it bleeds E like nobody's business. Dropping E allows you to pull for shots that nobody expects you'll make, as well as getting inside on turnfights. I've gotten bounced many, many times while flying these, and it's incredibly rare that I can't out turn my attacker with a well timed throttle cut. Some more then decent pilots have discovered while attacking me that this plane gets inside of even spits and n1ks in the verticle and can finish the fight in a flash. If it doesn't get the shot it can disenguage very well.
F4U-4: When attacking this plane doesn't offer anything the F4U-1D doesn't. When defending this plane has more options then anything else I can think of. The extra engine power combined with flap deployment make it a suitable turner, although not quite capable of going at it with the likes of spitVs and hurri's. But if you keep all your opponents either faster or slower then you this plane can dominate. Pop flaps and use lag rolls on the deck to avoid guns and get the overshoot, then just follow em up as they try to get away using the over-powered engine to hop above their LFR. If the 4-hog pilot times his reversals right you can overshoot this plane with 50mph extra speed, and be only co-E before you've gotten to the 600 mark, completely turning the tables.
Spit14: This plane is a unique stall fighter. You have to get in close, and use your awsome climb to stay just out of reach. Basically you run in and turn em a little pulling only medium Gs, but enough to keep em maneuvering. By the time they get guns on you they are usually too slow to follow a spiral climb, allowing you to reverse. It's terribly powerful in a 1v1 if the pilot is smart, but it takes a little too long to finish the fight. On the upside your usually quite a bit faster after your fight in this ride then in something like a tempest, which can be nice for dealing with the pickers that come along. The reason this justifys a perk is that this plan will work against EVERY other type of plane. When the same thing always works it takes the skill out of the game. It's not quite the reckless killer the Tempest is, but once people got the hang of it the whines would be far worse then those against the la7.
Aside from turning it's powerful climb lets you BnZ the horde with impunity. Just target the 109G10s first.
262: obviously, go fast and give a lot of lead for the potato guns.
152: It's porked. It was ok in AH1. Just write it off.
C-hog. It's pretty much like a hard to fly tempest. It doesn't go as fast, and you have to use flaps to get your inside turns, which prevents quick disenguaging. Trying to baby it to keep your perks makes you an easy target, as the hogs are really quite slow for E fighters. Unless you fly it in a CV battle you can expect people to target you early, as the F4U tag means C-hog more often then not.
Anyway, all these planes excel in one area in such a way as to leave the rest of the set behind. The high performance planes that arnt perked have limitations to help balance things out. The LA7 is chained to the deck, as it becomes easy prey above 10k. The 190D9 can't turn without losing all it's E. If it gets bounced and diving to the deck doesn't save it nothing will. And with the hatred most people feel for the dora they will dive with you more often then not.
-p.
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IMHO the Spit 14 is over perked and should be drastically reduced or eliminated entirely. The simple fact that it is rarely observed in the MA proves that the masses dont feel its worth the price.
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The 4-hog is a dominating aircraft at all alts. Only the Tempest equals it.
Dominating in what way?
When I look at the performance stats of how it's modelled in AH2 currently, the F4U-4 has nothing specific over any of our current perk-free late-war rides. Kingcat's superior AH stats comparison util is currently offline so I have to pull the quotes on acceleration and rolls out of my head, but the speed and climb can be compared by HTC official charts.
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- vs the Fw190D-9 -
Climb
* the Fw190D-9 outclimbs the F4U-4 upto 20k with WEP.
* the F4U-4 has a marginal climb advantage over the D-9 at military power... upto 10k. Over 10k and until 20k, the D-9 gains the edge in climb in military power
Speed
* the Fw190D-9 and F4U-4 are comparable in speed upto 20k. Over 20k the F4U-4 gains the advantage
Roll
* the Fw190D-9 outrolls the F4U-4 at all speeds upto 400mph
* over 400mph the F4U-4 gains the edge
Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is superior to the Fw190D-9
Acceleration
* the Fw190D-9 and the F4U-4 are comparable in acceleration
Armament
* 2x 13mms + 2x 20mms vs 6x.50s. Accuracy on the side of the 4hog, power on the side of the 190
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- vs the Bf109G-10 -
Climb
* the G-10 handily outclimbs the 4hog at all alts upto 30k(the HTC chart limit)
Speed
* the 4hog is faster than the Bf109G-10 at deck, upto 2k or so. Over 2k to 25k the Bf109G-10 is faster with WEP. Over 25k the 4hog and G-10 becomes roughly comparable in speed.
* the 4hog and the G-10 is comparable in speed with military power, except the 4hog has transitional phases at certain altitude ranges where the superchargers are shifted to next gear, with a momentary drop in performance.
Roll
* the 4hog outrolls the G-10 at all speeds
Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is somewhat superior to the Bf109G-10. The 4hog also has better use of flaps.
Acceleration
* the Bf109G-10 outaccelerates the F4U-4 at all alts
Armament
* 2x 13mms + 1x 30mms vs 6x.50s. Accuracy and efficiency on the side of the 4hog, power on the side of the 109
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- vs the P-51D -
Climb
* the 4hog is superior at all alts
Speed
* 4hog is faster under 10k.
* Between 10~17k, the P-51D is faster
* Over 18k, the 4hog is slightly faster
Roll
* 4hog outrolls the P-51D at all alts
Maneuverability
* the F4U-4 is somewhat superior to the P-51D
Acceleration
* the 4hog outaccelerates the P-51D
Armament
* same
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- vs the Spit14 -
Climb
* the Spit14 handily outclimbs the 4hog at all alts
Speed
* the Spit14 and 4hog is in a deadlock with very comparable speeds at all alts. At deck, the 4hog is vastly faster.
Roll
* the roll performance is comparable at low speeds between 200~300mph. Over 300mph the 4hog is superior.
Maneuverability
* the Spit14 is superior to the 4hog
* the 4hog has an edge in stability due to the use of combat flaps
Acceleration
* the Spit14 outaccelerates the 4hog
Armament
* 2x M2 50cals + 2x Hispano 20mms vs 6x.50s. The Spit14 is superior
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- vs the La-7 -
Climb
* the La-7 is vastly superior upto 10k
* above 10k the La-7 sharply declines in performance
Speed
* the La-7 is superior upto 10k
* over 10k the F4U-4 gains a sharp advantage
Roll
* the 4hog outrolls the La-7 at all alts
Maneuverability
* The La-7 has the edge in pure turn performance
* However, the 4hog has an edge in maintaining stable sustained turns with tight radius, thanks to its efficient use of combat flaps
Acceleration
* the La-7 is superior
Armament
* 3x nose mounted 20mms vs 6x.50s. The La-7 has an edge in power and efficiency. The 4hog has the edge in general accuracy.
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- vs the Ta152H-1 -
* the F4U-4 is superior at everything upto 35k
* over 35k the Ta152H-1 has a speed advantage
* the Ta152H-1 can fly forever with internal fuel load
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So..
How is it 'dominating' again?
The only reason that it's so 'dominating' is that it is because it is generally used by people who are already superbly proficient in air combat even with a sucky plane. Superior pilot in an expensive plane with heightened sense of SA and more caution - how can it be not dominating?
However, try fly and fight in any H2H room with loads of average and newbie guys, and the only thing it is really 'dominating' at, is in running away when things go bad, just like the Tempy in those rooms.
Assuming simular skill levels of pilots, a fight between a contemporary 109 or 190 against a F4U-4, is much simular to a Fw190A-8 vs P-51B, 109G-6 vs P-51B fights. It is no more 'challenging' than fighting a La-7 at deck in a 109G-10. Overall advantage goes to the La-7, but still its a close match. And lord knows I've met enough La-7s at that alt in a 190 or a 109 - which btw, all of them are completely free planes.
- Thus, spake 'the Prince of Perks' - :D
ps) Previous incarnation of this thread can be referenced here:
Please unperk the Spit14, F4U-4, Tempest5 and the Ta152H (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143864&highlight=Spit14)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Dominating in what way?
When I look at the performance stats of how it's modelled in AH2 currently, the F4U-4 has nothing specific over any of our current perk-free late-war rides. Kingcat's superior AH stats comparison util is currently offline so I have to pull the quotes on acceleration and rolls out of my head, but the speed and climb can be compared by HTC official charts.
outclimbs the F4U-4 upto 20k with WEP.
* the F4U-4 has a marginal climb advantage over the D-9 at military power..
You're not paying attention....
Throw away the AH1 charts, they DO NOT pertain to the AH2 F4U-4 with its corrected FM.
In a climb, the F4U-4 leaves the Dora huffing and puffing behind. In pure acceleration, only the Tempest beats it, and only down low. Finally, it is the fastest prop fighter in the game.
My regards,
Widewing
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In a climb, the F4U-4 leaves the Dora huffing and puffing behind. In pure acceleration, only the Tempest beats it, and only down low. Finally, it is the fastest prop fighter in the game.
I stand corrected.
Let's flip the climb advantages for some of the planes, and also flip the accel advantage to the 4hog in some comparisons. And let's say a good Bf109G-10 pilot faces a F4U-4 pilot.
It still looks about as challenging as a Bf109G-6 vs a La-5FN.
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Kweassa, have you actually flown the F4U-4 in the MA?
When I made the statement it is "dominating" I wasn't even thinking about what it's stats on paper were. I just know that of all the planes in the game, the F4U-4 and Tempest feel damn near invincable if you make no mistakes. The Spit14 is close, but does not have the sheer speed to get away from someone with a massive E advantage.
The Hog and the Temp both make me giddy with glee every time I point the nose down I see 500-550+ :D
g00b
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Not extensively, no. However, you're not making any sense g00b. Unless the AH2 F4U-4 has some mysterious source of power which dwarfs every other plane in some manner, it can't be dominating in any way, because it's not made that way.
WW indicates there's a change of FM, which might contribute to the 4hog in some benevolent manner I could not foresee, however as long as other stats remain true the the charts, then the limitations, and implications are still clear.
Listen to this;
The La-7 has is even faster than the F4U-4. Granted, not inspiringly faster, but the La-7 still stands at 380mph TAS on deck, installed with a 10min WEP system, as compared to the F4U-4 with 5 mins of WEP recording 378mph TAS. The La-7 is fastest accelerating plane too, with the G-10 coming close.
The La-7 is also equipped with a 3x B-20 cannons all mounted at the nose, a vastly superior gun mounting ideal for crossing snap shots, as compared to the wing-mounted .50s of the F4U-4 which is sensitive to convergence issues.
The La-7 also maneuvers better, although the advantage of really tough low-speed maneuvering goes to the F4U-4 thanks to its flaps.
The La-7 climbs faster than the F4U-4 too. Granted, it becomes different over 10k. But fights have a tendency of going downwards, not upwards. If the La at some point decides to run, the F4U-4 is not gonna catch it, since the speeds are roughly the same, unless it dives after it immediately. To where? Down to the deck.
So what's really so much 'superior' about the F4U-4 as a MA fighter plane, when compared to a La-7? If 'sheer speed' is the only thing that supports the dominance of the F4U-4 in the MA, then curiously enough, that justifies the claims that the La-7 will also be sheerly dominant in the MA.
Every veteran makes it a habit of taking a jab at the La-7 as an uninspiring plane, when in reality, by all accounts, it could be just as much 'dominating' as the F4U-4 if it, under the condition you've set, "does not make a mistake". But ofcourse, the MA is full of people making all kinds of mistakes. That's why the La-7 is uninspiring - all sorts of average guys and newbies fly it. If someone like Fariz takes a spin in it, it is quite fearsome and sometimes frustratingly powerful.
So;
If the F4U-4 and/or the Spit14 is unleashed;
a) Will it become a plane that is so much powerful over the others that the 90% of MA comprised of n00bs and average guys like me will be sorely dependant on its performance, and nobody is gonna shoot us sucky pilots down?
b) Or, just as the La-7 currently is, will it be just another superplane with an average pilot flying it, crashing and burning, augering, stalling out, miserably shot down by midwar planes due to all sorts of mistakes..?
My bets on b).
ALL of our currently perk-free latewar birds are "damn near invincable if you make no mistakes".
Except the average MA folk always make mistakes. And they are the people who will be flying the F4U-4s or Spit14 en masse, when it becomes free. Just as much as they are the same people who fly the La-7 en masse, because it is currently free.
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Kweassa, can the La7 take off from land and sea bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it? Add in the fact that the F4U-4 is basically as fast, climbs like a rocket, and enjoys some of the best low speed handling in the entire game... plus a high speed air brake should one require it. In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.
It's a monster, pure and simple. It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by jodgi
If the spit14 was unperked, I would fly it almost exlusively.
same here
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Kweassa, can the La7 take off from land and sea bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it? Add in the fact that the F4U-4 is basically as fast, climbs like a rocket, and enjoys some of the best low speed handling in the entire game... plus a high speed air brake should one require it. In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.
It's a monster, pure and simple. It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.
-- Todd/Leviathn
exactly
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i think what kweesa is saying... take the two planes to the DA..equal pilots the LA7 should win every time.
i think that too.
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I know what you're catching on to here Levi, and I fully understand and agree with it - there's more to planes than just about pure A2A performance. That's why the Chog was perked.
But the Chog is not the only plane that effects gameplay in terms of something else than just A2A performance.
How about the P-51D? Or the P-38L?
The P-38L is a bit slower than the other dragster planes, but in a pure A2A sense some pilots might prefer it over the F4U-4 as a superior dogfighter. Under the premise we are (or seem to be) sharing, if the MA is more than just about A2A, then the P-38L surely needs some kind of perk in the fact that it is the fastest climbing plane that can strap on a 2,000lbs load + 10x HVAR configuration.
How about the P-51D? A fighter plane that has the longest range on internal fuel load for a perk-free plane(only the Ta152 flies longer). It has some key disadvantages to the F4U-4 but it's still damn fast. It also carriers 2,000lbs load + 6x HVARS.
The P-51D can take off from land bases, use droptanks to extend range, or sling ordnance of any type underneath it. The P-51D is damn fast too, some great low-speed stability typical of USAAF planes wielding flaps, and a combat flap setting that can be used upto 400mph IAS. In addition, it handles capably at very high speed as well.
The only things the F4U-4 can do which the P-51D cannot, is climb, accelerate, take off from carriers, and perhaps fly a bit faster at some alt ranges. So, are those three~four advantages the F4U-4 wields over the P-51D really worth 50 perks?
It's a monster, pure and simple. It, along with the Tempest and 262, deserves perking more than any other planes in the game.
I agree.
Except, some of the other 'monsters' aren't perked in anyway. There are planes with great multi-purpose capabilities that is very fast and also competitive as a MA fighter - none of them are perked. So, why should the F4U-4 be the only multi-purpose late war plane that is SO HEAVILY perked?
So, basically I agree that it needs to be perked.
But there's no reason it should be perked at such a high price, and if it is perked under the reasons given above, by the same principle all of the other late war planes should be perked at varying prices.
But since, nobody seems to want the late-war planes in the MA perked, then by all rights the Spit14, F4U-4, and Ta152H-1 also should be unperked, or at least DRASTICALLY lowered in prices - 20 points tops.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The La-7 climbs faster than the F4U-4 too. Granted, it becomes different over 10k.
Listen, ya gotta quit thinking AH1..
As I posted before, actual climb test data:
109G-10: 1:46.18 (without gondolas, add 9 seconds if used)
Spit XIV: 1:47.13
109G-2: 1:54.06 (without gondolas, add 10 seconds if used)
F4U-4: 1:55.67
P-38L: 1:55.78 (about 35-40% fuel)
P-38J: 2:03.55
Ki-84: 2:04.09
190D-9: 2:04.35
Tempest: 2:05.38
La-7: 2:06.91
Yak-9U: 2:13.94
Notice that the La-7 is far behind. It falls behind immediately.
Acceleration on the deck: 200 mph to 300 mph.
1) Tempest 26.16 seconds
2) F4U-4 28.57
3) SpitXIV 28.72
4) La-7 28.78
5) 109G-10 28.97
6) 190D-9 30.83
7) Ki-84 35.96
8) P-38J 36.57
9) Yak 9-U 37.40
4 tenths of a second covers 3 thru 5.
My regards,
Widewing
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Perk everything made after 1943, but the highest perk rating of them all belongs to my wife, she's deadly during a MA furball!
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Kweassa,
Your best air-air k/d last tour was in the 4-hog. Are you just playing devil's advocate or what?
g00b
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It's not spectacular performance in a single category that makes a plane a monster, but rather it's performance accross the board. The la7 for example has a great engine, but ultimately it's turn performance is quite limited. Even for the good sticks it still has problems getting inside of turns. The great la7 pilots know how to minimize this weakness through manipulating E states, granted, but that's quite different from planes like the f4u-4 that have no such weaknesses. The closest thing to a weakness you could note about the super-hog is that it doesn't knife fight quite as well as a hurricane, but that's just not necessary. Too me it sounds like all you guys are saying is that because it's not 2x faster then an la7, it can't be any good. Maybe it's time you diversify your flying techniques.
-p.
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g00b, that's because I was flying with 20k alt and using my teammates as bait, and then running straight away when things seem to go bad.
Besides, I'm not sure I flew even 10 hours last tour.
[edit] btw, I flew like that, because it was so DAMNED expensive :D
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Can't even justify a Spit 14 that is on average 5 perks cheaper than a Tempest.
I'm all for your revised perk system Kweassa, never happen though, which is a shame.
Can't have people paying for Pony's, Lalas, D9, the world will end.
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Right Kev.
That's why we should unperk the F4U-4s and Tempests.
People obviously had no problems with P-51Ds or Lalas or Fw190D-9s 'dominating' the arena over all other '43 plane sets.
So why should there be any problem when F4U-4s or Tempests or Spit14s 'dominating' over Lalas and Fw190D-9s and P-51Ds anyway?
The gameplay is essentially the same!
A handful of superplanes dominated arena usage over all other early mid-war planes. So, no reason a handful of supersuper planes should not dominate the arena usage over the normalsuper planes, right?
Man, am I a genius or what? :D
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id say the oposite....perk EVERYTHING from 44ish onwards.....;)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Right Kev.
That's why we should unperk the F4U-4s and Tempests.
People obviously had no problems with P-51Ds or Lalas or Fw190D-9s 'dominating' the arena over all other '43 plane sets.
So why should there be any problem when F4U-4s or Tempests or Spit14s 'dominating' over Lalas and Fw190D-9s and P-51Ds anyway?
The gameplay is essentially the same!
A handful of superplanes dominated arena usage over all other early mid-war planes. So, no reason a handful of supersuper planes should not dominate the arena usage over the normalsuper planes, right?
Man, am I a genius or what? :D
Lol, yup you are.
Well you cant have a non US plane dominating the arena can you?
In all seriousness - If the 'C' Hog was perked because it got 'overused', wheres that logic get you when every other plane in the MA is almost exclusively a Pony, Lala or D9?
That not come under 'overusage' I guess.
I wonder if HT monitors plane usage?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
D9 was operational after the Spit XIV. P38L went operational after the Spit XIV for that matter. They were still flying early Js when the XIV got to the squadrons in early 44. Spit XIV was operational before the first 51Ds got to the squadrons. They didn't arrive until just prior to D-Day.
D9 didn't get there until October 44.
Don't think the mid-44 and after are perked idea works :)
Dan/CorkyJr
hehe, I was being sarcastic Guppy.
The RAF is the most screwed up airforce in AH. All free planes are 1943 or worse and free models are not the best of their kind (save spit 5). We have probably the worst spit9 possible (main RAF fighter) which pull back the main RAF non-perked force to early 43 / late 42 (the tiffie fans will have to excuse me, it's not a major fighter, nor was it famous for its A2A ability).
Even the mossie has the night dumpeners that take off 5-10mph of his speed which is lacking anyway in a 1945 areana (and there is no effective night anyway so it doesn't help).
The two RAF late war fighters are heavily perked. This leaves the free RAF to be from the time of the 190A5, 109G2, P40E P47D11 and P38G.
Bozon
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Getting back to the point, the XIV is perked too high.
Imagine we had a Mk IX or VIII running on 25 boost.
They are nimbler, climb equally, same firepower, the Mk VIII has twice the range, speed is lower, but that's it. They vastly outperform the Mk IX we have at the lower alt bands. So, if those were to arrive, would you perk them too????
1943 aircraft......
So, in that relation the XIV is well overperked.
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Actually shouldn't the Mk VIII be faster than the IX. It came after the IX which was only supposed to be stop gap till the VIII arrived.
But yup can probably guess it would be perked, RAF gets no late war stuff unperked it seems. Too much competition I guess, gotta leave it to the Lalas, Pony and D9.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually shouldn't the Mk VIII be faster than the IX. It came after the IX which was only supposed to be stop gap till the VIII arrived.
But yup can probably guess it would be perked, RAF gets no late war stuff unperked it seems. Too much competition I guess, gotta leave it to the Lalas, Pony and D9.
VIII was a bit heavier with the retractable tail wheel and more fuel tankage, but speeds were essentially the same.
The IX, despite being a 'stop gap' obviously was produced in far greater numbers then the VIII and included lots of refinements as it went along.
Clipped wing LFIXe and a regular span wing LFVIII would be the way to go. Good for the MA and covers about all the scenario fronts considering the VIII's use in the Pac, CBI and MTO.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Just have to wait and see what happens if they eventually get round to remodelling the Spits.
My guess is no new models, no change in perks, RAF still given short end of stick.
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Eh, no problem with me the way it is now, I rather like German Hardware:cool:
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
Eh, no problem with me the way it is now, I rather like German Hardware:cool:
Lol, I guess you wouldn't.
God forbid the RAF gets a FREE plane that can give Lalas/Ponys/D9 a run for their money.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Lol, I guess you wouldn't.
God forbid the RAF gets a FREE plane that can give Lalas/Ponys/D9 a run for their money.
If nothing else there should be an LFIX since it was the most produced version of the IX, not the thing we have now.
Considering the alts the AH airwar is fought at, the LFIX makes perfect sense over the Spit IX now in the game.
Dan/CorkyJr
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why do y'all not like the high alt awesome fights. Most of y'all are likeing the low down stuff. Well I should'n generalise, I have had some awesome high alt fights with those others that enjoy having some alt to move around in. :cool:
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I would agree daddyack - BUT, as most high alt fights invariably end up or right off the bat a dive to low alt, current Spit 9 is useless. Thats why it's use has declined.
Only decent hi-alt RAF plane is the Spit14 and unlike the D9, G10, P51 it is perked.
Which is the whole point of the thread!!!!!!
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
why do y'all not like the high alt awesome fights. Most of y'all are likeing the low down stuff. Well I should'n generalise, I have had some awesome high alt fights with those others that enjoy having some alt to move around in. :cool:
The nature of AH for better or worse is the Tactical airwar with fighter bombers down low.
It's essentially the post D-Day airwar in Europe that the TAF folks fought. Those were LFIXs XVIs, Tiffies etc
The Spit IX had evolved into the clipped wing LFIXe with the strengthened wing with three hard points. All optimized for the lower alt war being fought in the drive through France.
Land grab air support, pure and simple. Not my favorite way to fly, but what AH2 best portrays.
Dan/Corky
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high alt fights are fought like so
1: HO merge
2: dive to deck
3: run like hell, or auger because your plane doesnt like 600mph
i rarely win ANY fights that stay high, because i rarely get the chance to PRACTICE this high stuff cos most the time all i see is the guy run to the deck :(
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Dominating in what way? ...
Sorry Kweassa, but your comparison is pretty far away from reality. Have you tested carefully all these F4U4 vs XXX assumptions?
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Originally posted by Overlag
high alt fights are fought like so
1: HO merge
2: dive to deck
3: run like hell, or auger because your plane doesnt like 600mph
i rarely win ANY fights that stay high, because i rarely get the chance to PRACTICE this high stuff cos most the time all i see is the guy run to the deck :(
Nah, fight me sometime. Ill give you some sport. I might not be the best, but I certianly do not dive and extend. I try to opperate usually at 15-20+k.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I would agree daddyack - BUT, as most high alt fights invariably end up or right off the bat a dive to low alt, current Spit 9 is useless. Thats why it's use has declined.
Only decent hi-alt RAF plane is the Spit14 and unlike the D9, G10, P51 it is perked.
Which is the whole point of the thread!!!!!!
A well flown SpitIX will give a Dora or Pony all the threat they can handle. The problem is once you have them beat all they're going to do is point their nose down and leave you, which is of course what Overlag was saying.
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Kev...
Why do you think the Spit9 is useless?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Lol, I guess you wouldn't.
God forbid the RAF gets a FREE plane that can give Lalas/Ponys/D9 a run for their money.
Typhoon.
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The spit14 has all of the upsides of the G10 with none of the downsides. Are you kidding? You can fly around at 8k or so and attack things on the deck whilst staying at full throttle and HAVE ENOUGH CONTROL TO PULL FOR SHOTS, THEN ZOOM BACK TO AT LEAST 8K.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Typhoon.
Tiffie was introduced in 42.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by DaddyAck
Nah, fight me sometime. Ill give you some sport. I might not be the best, but I certianly do not dive and extend. I try to opperate usually at 15-20+k.
15-20 K is medium alt and again it was from these alts down that the LFIX was built for.
The Spitfire IX that AH has is an FIX that was built for 25K and above.
High alt would be that 25K + world that no one fights at in AH.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Typhoon.
Morph prob is unless you have a lot of alt on any of them your not gonna catch them.
Plus dogfighting you can't really put the Tiffy in their category.
Whereas the Spit 14 fits in nicely. Comparable performance to the D9, better turn, slightly worse roll. Just unperk the damn thing and lets see what happens.
OR perk the D9, Pony and Lala.
Actually Morpheus I think the Spit 5 is superior to the 9 apart from two things
Speed.
Gun package.
If I remember correctly the Spit 9 usage has dropped considerably since AH2, must be a reason?
To be totally honest Morph fed up of the endless LA7, D9, Ponys. People are asking for MORE planes, we use what maybe 50% , prob less of whats available now.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Lol, I guess you wouldn't.
God forbid the RAF gets a FREE plane that can give Lalas/Ponys/D9 a run for their money.
So... You're telling me that the Tiffy can't give any of the above three planes a "run for their money"?
The Spit14 is one of the most capable planes next to the Temp so far as a prop plane goes. It climbs like a monster, it can turn with most of the best turn fighters in the game... The ones it cant out turn it can out run, out zoom out accelerate by a very large margine.
Those, are the reasons its perked. I agree with the ones who've said it should not be perked as high as it is. Also, as wetrat mentioned, it can dive very well and still maintain a conciderable amount of control in and out of its dive. Its a perk ride. Its fits the perk criteria. Just like, due to its range and ordinance capacity, the La7 does not fit the criteria.
So far as the tiffy not being a more than capable fighter to match the La7/P51/190D9... that is a load of BS.
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Thought you gents might be interested in these numbers regarding the Spit LF V with +18 boost, vs the Spit FIX which is what the AH bird is supposed to be. These are real Spit numbers btw not the AH numbers.
Keep in mind the alts you are fighting in AH, which at least for me are under 10K
Spit LFV 4000 feet. Top speed 350 mph
Spit FIX 4000 feet Top Speed 326 mph
Spit LFV 8000 feet Top speed 348 mph
Spit FIX 8000 feet Top Speed 344 mph
Time to climb
Spit LFV 8000 feet 1 minute 45 seconds
Spit F IX 8000 feet 2 minutes 20 seconds.
Now note the LFIX numbers
Spit LFIX 4000 feet Top speed 364 mph
10000 feet (didnt note 8K) Top Speed 370 MPH
Now note the climb to 10K 2 minutes 6 seconds. The LFIX went to 10K faster then the FIX could get to 8K.
As you can see the FIX was not a better bird at the alts we fight in AH.
Bring the LFIX to AH and the Spit V will disappear, but for now the Spit LFV is by far the better bird for the AH Spit driver because we're not fighting at 25K
Peformance for the LFV fell off dramatically above 12K whereas the Spit FIX improved greatly.
Dan/CorkyJr
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If I remember correctly the Spit 9 usage has dropped considerably since AH2, must be a reason?
I know Im going to get ripped apart for saying this but that never stopped me in the past... So.
I would say... The reasons we see the SpitV being used so much more than the Spit9 and probably many of the other planes is because it is such a simple and forgiving plane to fly. With a little alt, and a little bit of speed and know how you can basicly live fairly well in a SpitV. If you get caught up low, on the deck, with multiple cons, thats a different story. But if you have alt, say 10k... And mantain your speed you can live a very long time within this plane.
I personaly find the 9 a far superior plane to the 5. When its low on gas, around 50% say, you can turn that thing VERY well. When you keep it slow by chopping throtle and getting it into flaps the spit9 can hang in a turn fight with a spit5 for quite a while. And if it gets into any trouble, it has a chance to accelerate away from the Spit5 or out climb it with its better climb. The 9 CAN turn like a monster if you know how to keep it in its sweet spots. Its not a better turn fighter, but it is a great one. And it has the speed and climb to hang with alot of the better accelerating planes out there.
To be totally honest Morph fed up of the endless LA7, D9, Ponys. People are asking for MORE planes, we use what maybe 50% , prob less of whats available now.
I can understand that. But... Do you honestly want to be chasing another plane down? I think not.
Because that's what will happen. You'll see everyone who used to fly La7s for the reasons you've already listed, jump into spit14s.
We dont need another unperked runner.
P51's
P38's
190 D's
109G's
Tiffy's
La7s
So you learn techniques/use techniques you already have to sucker them into a fight. One they cant get out of until one of you is dead.
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Which P38s are runners Morph. I can barely get away from myself in a 38 :)
I still see Kev's point though. Part of it is as an RAF fan you get limited a bit to 1942 birds.
When you are up against 190D9s as an example, it makes sense you'd have the latest Spit variant to go after it. Instead you are chasing it in something that was no longer a frontline RAF bird by the time the D9 showed.
I know in the overall scheme of things that only applies to a smaller part of the crowd, but it still fits.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Have to respectfully disagree Morph - Tiffy compared to a P51/D9 or a Lala is like driving a dump truck.
All are faster (apart from P38), daresay they all outturn it, only advantage it has is the 4x20mms for a snapshot.
All lose 'e' a lot less than a Tiffy, G10 outclimbs it.
Putting the Spit 14 into the mix evens thing out a bit.
As Dan/Guppy said - We have a great Spit V, and probably the worst Spit IX ever produced. So all RAF fans are limited to 1942 ish planes whereas all other countries have late war planes free.
Looking at the current/in progress remodels -
Japan- Ki84
Germany-109/190
US- B24/P51x?/P38x3/P47x?
USSR- 0
Brit- 0
Fairly obvious the way things are going.
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Which P38s are runners Morph. I can barely get away from myself in a 38
You fly the G yes?
The L can out run a spit. The higher you go in an L the more nasty it gets. Or Lame depending on what side on the 38 your on.
This isnt a thread about naming names so please dont make it one corky, dont turn it in to that. If you can think of a few of the guys who are called "the best 38 sticks" in the game, then you can also think of runners guys who like to dive and run from trouble.
Here we go. Shes hiJacked. Would you like to continue?
I'm done.
I disagree with unperking this plane.
I do agree that it should be cheaper than what it is.
smaller part of the crowd, but it still fits.
BS.
You know as well as I do that the people who run now will just have another plane to run in. Only they will have a much better runner than they did before.
SO WHAT.
Are we going to unperk the Hog4 next? (another high alt pig on the deck) I'd take a 51D over that crate any day of the week and twice on sunday. And after that I'd take a 38. And after the 38 I'd take the Spit9. After which I'd take the spit5.
The spit14 is a perk plane. Plain and simple.
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In that case Morph -
The La7, D9, Pony and maybe the G10 should be perked also. P51 is arguably the best all round plane in here.
I think part of the problem is that there appears to be no logic to what planes are perked.
Thats why I orignally asked - give me one reason the Spit 14 is perked, and then show it doesn't apply to another free aircraft.
Usaully you get - Numbers produced, or performance, yet both these apply to other free planes.
I think Dan meant that he can't run in a 38, dont think he was literally asking for names of people, more likely he meant which model. My take on it anyway.
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The La7, D9, Pony and maybe the G10 should be perked also
Given = pilots
Co alt-Co E
Spit14 Vs La7----Spit14 wins
Spit14 Vs D9---- Spit14 wins
Spit14 Vs 51D----Spit14 wins
Spit14 Vs G10----Spit14 wins
Thats why its perked.
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Come on Morph, you could pick any of the big three put against a variety of planes and come out with same result and then say 'Why aren't they perked'?
Don't think you have a valid point there.
Plus would depend on alt and given that co-alt, co-e, equal pilots is probably a myth.
It's not that I want more planes perked, what I want is decent RAF fighter post 1942 that is free, same as all other countries.
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You are saying one thing then arguing about another totally different thing.
Did you even read what you and I wrote? WTF
Spit14 beats all those planes up there.^^
It out climbs the 51, and can out turn it at low speed.
It can rip a dora to shreads
When it grabs hold of a G10.. For get about it. G10 is little more than a snack
Its range is greater than an La7 not to mention the fact that anyone who knows anything about the two planes can beat the La7 with the Spit14 with hardly any trouble at all.
Now your just being silly Kev.
You know dam well the spit14 should be perked. It shouldnt have the perk price it does, but it should be perked.
Any one of the other plane are somewhat equaled out by one another in terms of the advantages/disadvantaged.
The Spit14 has an edge on all of these planes enough to make it a perk ride.
I've made and proven all the points I needed to. Infact, I didnt even need to. I just simply tried to help you see. But you are blinded by the "we dont have our late war unperked ride".
But you know what they say about a blind horse. You can lead it to water...
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Yeah, Spit14 is a perk worthy plane. And like most here, I also agree the cost should be lowered(20-30)
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Originally posted by Morpheus
You fly the G yes?
The L can out run a spit. The higher you go in an L the more nasty it gets. Or Lame depending on what side on the 38 your on.
This isnt a thread about naming names so please dont make it one corky, dont turn it in to that. If you can think of a few of the guys who are called "the best 38 sticks" in the game, then you can also think of runners guys who like to dive and run from trouble.
Here we go. Shes hiJacked. Would you like to continue?
I'm done.
I disagree with unperking this plane.
I do agree that it should be cheaper than what it is.
BS.
You know as well as I do that the people who run now will just have another plane to run in. Only they will have a much better runner than they did before.
SO WHAT.
Are we going to unperk the Hog4 next? (another high alt pig on the deck) I'd take a 51D over that crate any day of the week and twice on sunday. And after that I'd take a 38. And after the 38 I'd take the Spit9. After which I'd take the spit5.
The spit14 is a perk plane. Plain and simple.
Wasn't asking for names Morph :) Just haven't noticed any 38 runners, and lord knows I sure can't in a G. I was referring to myself.
Runners will be runners, and they'll find a plane to run in regardless right? That's the way they play the game.
All I'm seeing Kev asking for is a latewar RAF ride to go with the D9, LA7 and P51D. Right now the RAF guys have no late war production bird like the other guys too.
Dan/CorkyJr
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But you know what they say about a blind horse. You can lead it to water...
But a pencil must be led?
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The Spit14 has an edge on all of these planes enough to make it a perk ride.
Total bullshi* I can make any of such comparisons and claim the La-7 has its edge on all of its contemporaries. It takes about 2 seconds to slap up an analysis like this one;
Given = pilots, Co alt-Co E
La7 Vs Fw190A-8 ----La7 wins
La7 vs Fw190D-9 ----La7 wins
La7 vs P-51D ----La7 wins
La7 vs 109G-10 ----La7 wins
and then go claim;
Thats why the La7 SHOULD be perked. (preferably at the amount the Spit14 is perked at)
IMO, flimsy analogy at its best.
The amount of 'edge' a Spit14 has against its temporaries is no larger than the amount of edge a Spit9 has against a 109G6, P-47D-11, and a Fw190A-5. Other planes are faster, or climb better. The Spits have a better balance of maneuverability and speed.
Besides, EVERY plane has somekind of edge against another. ALL of our 1944 rides have an edge against the 1943 planes, and ALL of the 1943 planes have and edge against the early war planes.
So does that mean our planes should all be perked at some price, getting progressively heavier the more it gains an 'edge' against a previous group of plane? I didn't see you complaining that you're beloved P-38J/L should be perked since it has an edge against every 1941 or 1942 plane.
So why's the Spit14 must be perked again? Because it has an 'edge' in performance?
Just how much? About as much as your 1944 P-38s having an edge against contemporary 190s or 109s?
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All of the planes you've listed against the La7 can hold a DT, can carry more internal fuel, have a far greater range, far better guns, carry more ord... Shall I go on?
The La7 is a very capable plane. But its also extremely limited.
Flimsy at best?
I dont think so.
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Perking every plane in the game is not the answer. We've already beat this horse a thousand times over, and you've come up emtpy handed every time. Perking the ones that stand out above all others is reasonable, and the answer.
I was wondering when you'd slide in here with your little perk plan. The same one everyones laughed at for how many years?
Again, what are your reasons to perk every plane?
So people will fly like panzys?
Jesus, as if its not bad enough already with a nonperked ride. This one life to live B/S has already grown leaps and bounds from what it was in AH1. Add to that a price... Some heavier cost to their death other than their studmuffinile ego's and no one will fight anyone. It will be engage with advantage or keep out until you've got one.
Is that what you want to see? Why dont you leave the complaining to your wives and just wait for TOD to come out.
You can have all the rules/regs/costs/conditions you want.
Here's another idea for you.
Go Hijack another thread. You've already proven that you can't keep on topic for but a few sentences until your sceaming in advocation of your magnificent idea to "save the MA"
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Sorry Morph, that reasoning has been used, and refuted already.
Now you're the one who's "saying one thing then arguing about another totally different thing", since you started off mentioning 'edges' in coalt-coE A2A fighting, and then suddenly moved upto overall tactical advantages in non-A2A sense.
Under the same reasoning, your P-38L can be easily considered a much more capable plane than a Fw190D-9 or a Bf109G-10, and thus, would be a candidate for a perk. Long range, DTs, superior ordnance..
"Hey, the 190D-9 or a Bf109G-10 is a very capable plane plane. But its also extremely limited, compared to your P-38L"
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Morph - If perking ones that stand out is the answer, why isn't the Pony perked. As stated, it is most likely the best all round plane in the game.
Sorry, the "perk ones that stand out" doesn't work, as it's not the way things are at the moment. If it was we would be in a more planes perked situation. Something I would prefer to avoid.
Get a horrible feeling that IF we get a new Spit when/if the Spit remodel is done it will be perked also. Can't give the RAF a decent free aircraft ;) We have to make do with 1942 stuff.
I think only 3 are worth perking
262, 163, Temp - They do stand out, perhaps add the F4U4.
The rest should be free having only an advantage in certain situations. But isn't that true of all aircraft.
You think gameplay can get any worse than the current situation? Dam skys full of Lalas, Ponys, D9s and G10s, very little else.
Funnily enough a recent program of the worlds top 10 fighters placed the Spit at #6, the Pony at #1.
Caught your 6 or 7 kills in an 109F, nice :)
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Now you're the one who's "saying one thing then arguing about another totally different thing", since you started off mentioning 'edges' in coalt-coE A2A fighting, and then suddenly moved upto overall tactical advantages in non-A2A sense.
What is so difficult for you to comprehend about this?
And your completely flase in stating i've roamed off base here. I've done nothing but prove that the spit14 is a perked ride.
Even without alt/E over another plane it is going to rip any of the planes that Kev mentioned to shreads.
Do you want me to tell you how? Show you how?
Your completely overlooking the bigger picture here by taking a deffeincive role with your "perk agenda". Thinking that could ever improve game play is rediculous. It would worsen it... Period.
Under the same reasoning, your P-38L can be easily considered a much more capable plane than a Fw190D-9 or a Bf109G-10, and thus, would be a candidate for a perk. Long range, DTs, superior ordnance..
Look there... You've done it again. Where's the Spit14 there?
And I'm the one going off topic? Again, I've kept the Spit14 into perspective UP until the point where you bring an La7 and said it should be perked. Not before then.
We are disputing why the Spit14 is perked. And you come in and start advocating your ideas on why the La7 should be perked.
I'm the one going off topic?
Talking to you is about as stimulating as talking to a rock... And you absorb just about as much...
You'll never see this plane unperked. Maybe less perked. But thats it.
That's It. I'm done.
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that's it...
i'll set-up an H2H battle
spit XIV vs 109G-10
* normal ammo/fuel
* stall limiter disabled
after you all done fighting in 109G-10 and spit XIV, you'll all see the reason why spit 14's points should go down a little bit.
infact 109G-10 is faster at 0 to 10K feet.
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Perk them all let Dale sort 'em out!
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the Spit14 is the best 1 vs 1 fighter in the game.. able to completely dominate the la7, the g10, and the mustang/p38 anything..
excellent acceleration
excellent firepower..
excellent view/sa
excellent top speed above 5k...
one of the best e retention's during light manuevering in the game.. (think f4u4 good without the zoom but instead a sustained superclimb..)
best climb in the game..
(alot claim it cant run..)
its highspeed climb can match any other aircraft chasing it.. if your level and trying to run your wrong.. use 109 tactics.. highspeed climb... say about 275-300 indicated and the best climb you can get at that.. watch as other aircraft just cant compete... (109 can hang for a while.. but you should have advantage by the end of your wep, then angles fight anything stupid enough to climb up to your perch.. watch them dive away or die.. thats their choice..)
under non wep, one of the best tuners in the game.. little worse tha spit9 but with double the engine power for vert manuevers.. (most keep her wepped and flounder under manuevering.. thats a mistake... under non wep she is stable..)
given the above attributes what aircraft is superior to the spit14
IMO the only thing thats comes close is the f4u4(very close) and the tempest.. (both having better attributes than the spit14 in some areas but both dont have the whole bag like the spit14 has..)
the reason some of you think the spit14 is just mediocre is that you dont know how to fly it.. (most fly it like a spit5 / spit9)
you should be flying like a mustang'ed viewed 109, that can turn with everthing except the slow speed turn and burners.. in others words the most dominating aircraft in the game...
anyone?
DoctorYo
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Originally posted by Kev367th
But a pencil must be led?
Graphite hehe
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Morpheus,
The Spitfire Mk IX in AH does not out anything other than range the Spitfire Mk V in AH until you get over 10k.
The Spitfire V is as fast, climbs better and turns better than the Spitfire Mk IX.
What we need for the RAF fighter fans is a Spitfire LF.Mk IX or Spitfire LF.k XVI or Spitfire FL.Mk VIII.
Personally I'd like a Spitfire Mk VIII as it is a good Pac. Theater scenario fighter too.
The Spitfire Mk XIV needs to be either lowered in price or have it's flight model redone using +25lbs boost so it has the performance to justify the current price.
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DoctorYo the MA is dynamic, it doesn't comprise of multiple 1v1's. The qualities for a plane to be successful in the MA differs from being a 1v1 fighter. I don't believe anyone on this thread believes the spit 14 to be mediocre, rather it's unjustifiably perked or over perked.
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The Spitfire V is as fast, climbs better and turns better than the Spitfire Mk IX.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :aok
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Morpheus,
Get out of your P-38 and fly them. They aren't the same as AH1.
On the deck: Spitfire Mk IX: 320mph
On the deck: Spitfire Mk V: 317mph
That is the same speed for all intents and purposes.
Don't pull moronic smilely face crap and think you are oh so clever for dismissing an argument you haven't even thought about.
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Originally posted by thrila
DoctorYo the MA is dynamic, it doesn't comprise of multiple 1v1's. The qualities for a plane to be successful in the MA differs from being a 1v1 fighter. I don't believe anyone on this thread believes the spit 14 to be mediocre, rather it's unjustifiably perked or over perked.
Exactly.
In the MA which is not a 1v1 environment it's no more of an uber fighter than a D9,Lala,Pony or G10. All have their own strengths and weaknesses.
It excels at hi-alt, but hi-alt fights are as rare as rocking horse ****. Then again so do the G10 (free) and TA-152 (should be free also)
The whole problem with the perk system is it's so fugged up. Most seemed to be on a whim rather than a solid reason as only 3 or 4 planes really deserve it (262,163,Temp maybe F4U4)
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Some real Spitfires, from flight tests, and a 109G to compare.
Now compare this to AHII ;)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/503_1114548539_box2b1.jpg)
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On the deck: Spitfire Mk IX: 320mph
On the deck: Spitfire Mk V: 317mph
Are you talking wep?
If so I find that meaningless.
What do you do when it runs out? Because it will, and in the spit's it will run out very fast.
KillnU and I just went to the TA.
He in a spitV, me in spit9.
100 fuel lvled off at 500ft.
With out WEP.
Spit9- 310mph
Spit5- 289mph
With its short wep the spitv can come into range of the speeds of the spit9(roughly 3mph). When it runs out the spit9 out classes it in both speed and climb rate.
I laughed at your moronic statement because it was so very funny.
I have flown them. I've fown all of the spits. I know what they can do and cannot do. In fact I think it is the only way to learn how to beat them or learn how to live in them. By knowing what they can and cannot do.
As I said, once your wep runs out, which it does very fast. The spit9 simply out classes the spit5 with its speed and acceleration.
Don't pull moronic smilely face crap and think you are oh so clever for dismissing an argument you haven't even thought about.
tsk tsk. I seem to have struck a nerve.
Edit: and btw, I dont know why you people think the only plane I fly is the 38. I haven't flown it nearly as much as I used to in the past. Infact it has been in the hanger more often than not. I guess it got to easy to fly.
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PERKS:lol :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
If they gave perk pts for GETTING KILLED, why then, I'd have flown the Spit 14 a lot more than I did.
When I flew, that is.
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109G10 vs LA7 in DA..G10 wins everytime(or should)
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I guess it got to easy to fly.
bahh, dont go there. spit5 or 9 is much easier to fly. think ive seen you in those. now, understand you fly them, lets say, differently, but...are easier to "fly". imho
but of course its all relative, they are all easy to fly on this game.
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Originally posted by killnu
bahh, dont go there. spit5 or 9 is much easier to fly. think ive seen you in those. now, understand you fly them, lets say, differently, but...are easier to "fly". imho
but of course its all relative, they are all easy to fly on this game.
Yep, SpitV and SpitIX are both easy to fly, even after the training wheels are removed. This is why every noob in the TA can be found in a Spitfire. That's not a slam. On the contrary, that fact makes the Spit that much more dangerous.
My regards,
Widewing
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what does make them hard to "fly", is flying them 5k or lower into overwhelming odds then making it home. that is more the style of flying than the plane though. :aok
and yes, spit14 should be perked, just lighter. way to hvy as it is now.
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DoctorYo the MA is dynamic, it doesn't comprise of multiple 1v1's. The qualities for a plane to be successful in the MA differs from being a 1v1 fighter. I don't believe anyone on this thread believes the spit 14 to be mediocre, rather it's unjustifiably perked or over perked.
You are accurate.. the MA is not the 1 vs 1's by default... (its dynamics are double edged if you look around..)
you must create those situations..
how do you do it ? look for low intensity scraps on the map.. the ones with 1/4 bar each side..(may be boring for the instant gratification types and KOT wannabees but it works..)
enter those frays and you will get you 1 vs 1's 1 vs 2's/3's all day long.. (and your in a spit14 if you have skill youll own those sorties.. even against 3 if you know what your doing and dont get caught with your pants down..)
if you follow the horde like 90% of the players in this game.. then targets and becoming a target are greatly intesified to what you have described above..
My personal favorite is to come in deep in enemy airspace and just start buzzing bases they will come to you thinking your a bomber on a milk run.. or lone porker..(dar bar..)
after one or two of those, more targets will come and be ready for them.. rinse and repeat. Until things get sloppy then high speed climb away.. (important you dont just loop over them always get the seperation away from the base becuase smart pilots will leave, climbout and come back..and you will be slow from looping)(they are not a problem either becuase if they can run you down you can out angle them.. {what i mean by out angle is not yank the stick to 6g's; use the least g as possible to force the overshoot to change your vector} so usually its just a vector change they overshoot and you again change vectors again to get the new sucker into a climbing tail chase or whatever mistake he gives you..)
If they will chase then let the high alt vulching part dux begin..
Save your wep and youll have very few problems..
Your a good pilot (thrila) you telling me you cant get creative to get 1 vs 1s..(may bore you to death what i described im shure there are more methods you could use for yourself)
you just have to create them...
I think the problem here or argument is that the same standard is not applied to other planes... g10, dora, stang, and la7...
dont use their examples (imo all should be perked at least as much as the chog) as reference to deperk the spit14.. while the newbs dont see it as a big deal i think most vets have seen what a spit14 can do by itself now imagine a squad or two raining down on them and it makes the la7/dora/insert whatever horde dweebs look like a bunch of cupcakes..
My comment on 1 vs 1 aircraft doesn't make the aircraft any worse say if there are 2 spit14's or 3 or 4... vs 4 , 5 , 10
1 perk aircraft cant take on any more than 3 imo (2 if they are both latewar)
but thats apples and oranges.. give me the same amount of aircraft give my team spit14's and the other whatever equal pilots my money is on the spit14 team..
Just my opinion of course..
DoctorYo
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What is so difficult for you to comprehend about this?
And your completely flase in stating i've roamed off base here. I've done nothing but prove that the spit14 is a perked ride.
Prove? Prove what?
You proved nothing but repeat a generic fool's comment that has no basis at all whatsoever.
The Spit14 was never tested as a free plane but started off as a 60 point perk plane. It didn't ever get a chance to be tested how it'd fare when it was used in larger numbers with average pilots in it.
Even without alt/E over another plane it is going to rip any of the planes that Kev mentioned to shreads.
Claims without basis. Typical.
What interests me the most, is people who find such sanctity in pilot skills and individual combat, suddenly become oblivious to the pilot factor when discussing F4U-4s and Spit14s.
We have people claiming the La-7 is worth jackshi* since so many fools fly it. Widewing has a habit of posting how he can shoot down other people in his TBM or SBD or whateversuckyplane, and most of all, you P-38 pilots take pride in your excellent skills and never for a moment cease to preach the importance of the pilot factor.
And yet, it's all gone. Even the thought of Spit14s or F4U-4s becomes perk-free planes, and the typical knee-jerk reaction arises.
Every average guy in the MA suddenly become superpilots in Spit14s or F4U-4s? Those same people fly La-7s, a 380mph deck speeder, and still get caught and massacred by people everyday?
Or is the great climb on a 5min limited WEP (and miserably short range) of the 4hog or the Spit14 gonna let it climb forever?
Do you want me to tell you how? Show you how?
And what will you prove? You're better than me? But that's a very very common method amongst you guys I admit. Somehow you think your individual bravado with a certain plane is relevant to this discussion?
Your completely overlooking the bigger picture here by taking a deffeincive role with your "perk agenda". Thinking that could ever improve game play is rediculous. It would worsen it... Period.
Get real.
The only reason the Spit14 is perked so high was because people were freaked out by the thought of free Spit14s when they were announced. A plane that would turn like a Spit5, speed like a La7, and climb like a G-10.
Well it turns out, the Spit14 can climb like a G-10 for about 5 mins on WEP, it is at least 30mph slower than the La-7 at deck, and definately does not turn like a Spit5.
Add in a turn maneuverability boost to a Bf109G-10 and that's basically a Spit14, since those two planes are so closely matched together in overall performance.
It's not a super plane. The only thing super about it is its perk price.
And I'm the one going off topic? Again, I've kept the Spit14 into perspective UP until the point where you bring an La7 and said it should be perked. Not before then.
We are disputing why the Spit14 is perked. And you come in and start advocating your ideas on why the La7 should be perked.
What are you, dense?
The La-7 thing is dragged into this discussion to prove that your own 'agenda' against the Spit14s or F4U-4s have no basis at all.
It's also dragged into the picture to show that perking the Spit14 or F4U-4 at such prices is an outrage, and injustice to the RAF and USN fans.
I'm the one going off topic?
Talking to you is about as stimulating as talking to a rock... And you absorb just about as much...
And talking to you is a typical 'talk-to-vets' reaction.
Lot of claims, no data, 'submit to my authority'. And the moment people start to criticize that, and the insults and ignorance fly.
You'll never see this plane unperked. Maybe less perked. But thats it.
We'll see about that.
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Jesus Christ.
It took all that Bullchit from you to say that the lesser pilots in the game need a greater plane to counter my superior skill?
Question. And I think you might be drinking again so I'll make this short and simple for you to understand and absorbe.
Why in the hell are you talking about F4u4s?
And what will you prove? You're better than me? But that's a very very common method amongst you guys I admit. Somehow you think your individual bravado with a certain plane is relevant to this discussion?
Why in the hell would I want to prove that I'm better than you?
Everyone already knows I am. Showing you would prove nothing to noone.
Inface I was going to help you see the advantages the plane has over the ones that Kev mentioned. But noooo that's not good enough for your googling mind.
Seems to me that you are just a big cry baby who says he knows it all and it doesnt matter how much he sucks in the game, he's right because he googles the living watermelon out of any subject that comes his way.
I'm telling you you're wrong through experience flying the plane. I know what they can do. I dont claim to know it all about them. But I will tell you for a fact that the spit14 holds and edge over the planes THAT Kev mentioned. The same planes that are among the best and move survivable planes in the MA.
Would you like me to bow down to your book collection? Or your googling abilities? Which is? Both?
All you've done is get more upset and wonder further and further away from the discusion at hand. All the while saying you're the one who is trying to keep everyone on track. Case in point, the f4u4.
Do you have a picture of yourself on the bathroom mirror that you gaze into in the morning?
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Why in the hell are you talking about F4u4s?
Because at some point, the questioning about the perked planes was extended. Didn't you even read the thread?
I'm telling you you're wrong through experience flying the plane. I know what they can do. I dont claim to know it all about them. But I will tell you for a fact that the spit14 holds and edge over the planes THAT Kev mentioned. The same planes that are among the best and move survivable planes in the MA.
So what? There are numerous things to consider about how perk prices should be applied.
* How much of an edge and how it is ever brought into the game?
* Would it be such drastic an advantage that it needs such a high perk point?
* There are other planes with plenty of 'edges' and 'advantages' that are free. So why's this 'Spit14' or 'F4U4' which has certain types of 'edges' must be perked so high?
You answered NONE of those questions, proved NOTHING in relevance to those questions, and IGNORE every argument based on those questionable circumstances.
You assume that the Spit14 has 'edges' against some planes, and yet you fail to prove any of them.
So tell me again, why should the Spit14 have any kind of 'edge' over the other planes?
Is it the fastest?
Is it the best turning?
Is it the best climbing?
Best rolling?
Best diving?
Is it a balance of above traits that make it so dangerous?
There are plenty of planes that outperform the Spit14(and the F4U4) in at least one of the categories mentioned above that are free.
There are plenty of all-round balanced planes that are lethal and dangerous, that are also free.
So considering all this, why's the Spit14 have such an advantage?
Oh that's right.
You never consider those things. You just know it's a good plane and it needs 50~60 perks to keep it out of the MA for infinity, unless some bored person with many perks want to indulge.
Well I call that bullshi*
Would you like me to bow down to your book collection? Or your googling abilities? Which is? Both?
No.
Just give a reasonable argument why it should be better. Or can you not explain why?
All you've done is get more upset and wonder further and further away from the discusion at hand. All the while saying you're the one who is trying to keep everyone on track. Case in point, the f4u4.
Do you have a picture of yourself on the bathroom mirror that you gaze into in the morning?
The discussions go downhill when people start throwing out empty claims without any kind of reasoning except 'I just know it, so I must be right'.
Maybe you should get a job as a priest or something.
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Because at some point, the questioning about the perked planes was extended. Didn't you even read the thread?
Yes I did.
And the only mention of any other perk plane before you came along was to show the Spit14 is OVER PERKED.
Since then You've brought just about every plane into this converstaion to try and prove me wrong. When time and time again I've proven that you're the one who hasnt the clue.
You assume that the Spit14 has 'edges' against some planes, and yet you fail to prove any of them.
For someone as smart as you make yourself out to be, which I think you over rate your intelligence.... You have no clue do you.
Go back and read. Im sure you'll quote every Golly-gee thing I've said and still not take away a single thing from it. I've told you how and why the spit14 has an edge. But you're too foolish, blind or thick headed to understand that. So I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself so you can come back and whine some more.
Let me ask you a question.
Do you think it should be unperked?
With all that you've said... Taking all your wise words into concideration... Do you think it should be the least bit perked?
Lay down the weak insults for a few moments. They aren't your style and you look very silly trying to make it such. And just answer my question. :)
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50 points is still too expensive
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I see a lot more tempests in the air than I do 14s, last night I saw 4 temps within icon range of me at once. The last time I saw a 14 was with Morph flying it earlier this week, probably a few weeks before that was the last one other than him.
I think it is clear that the 14 is OVER perked, if not from the opinions stated in thsi thread then definitely from those who vote in tha hangar with their choice.
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Leave the thing perked, and while we're at it I think we should perk the rest of them too. Spits are damn near all you see anymore.
While perhaps not the very best in every aspect, Spits seem to be able to do everything very very well.
They are as I've said on other threads " a crutch ,the tricycle with training wheels". Or as others call them "EZ mode planes"
You dont have to have to be very good, or have very much skill, or talent to do well in a spit.
If my 8 year old daughter (7 at the time) whos only experiance in this game is in watching me, can get 2 kills in a spit, anyone can
Thats not to say there are skilless talantless people that fly spits.
It saddens me to say I see very skilled people in them all the time.
It saddens me because these folks I see I know dont need that kind fo crutch to do well.
Im never impressed with someone who gets kills in spits
Im far more impressed with someone who gets kills in say a P47, Or even a Hurricane or Niki.
Spits are good if all you want to do is get easy kills.
If you want to be challanged, fly just about anything else
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Errrmm.. what is the major difference between a n1k and a spit?
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@topic of LaLas
Since we are talking LaLa.
If the C-hog is perked then the 3 cannon LaLa should be as well.
Personally I would like to see the 2 cannon and 3 cannon LaLas split into two planes.
2 cannon lala unperked and 3 cannon lala perked at the same level as the C-hog.
@toipc of late war RAF planes
Totally agree that we should have more and later spit versions then we have now.
BUT this is something we should discuss when the spits are in line for remake.
They wount be for at least 3-4 months (jugs, ponies and 109s are next) and most likely not for at least 6-8 months (US bombers and 110s will most likely come after the next 3 planes).
Once the ToD set is done Im pretty sure we will see RAF plane work. So seriously lets save it till that day.
Tex
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Morpheus,
You never proved anything. You simply made trite claims like "Spit14 vs La-7: Spit14" and presented that as proff. To call that proof is ludicrious. That is a claim not supported by any data. It may, or may not, be true, but in and of itself it is just a claim.
In my esperience the Spit14 has the advantage if the La-7 stays to fight and doesn't kill the Spit14 at the start. The La-7 has the advantage at the beginning, but will lose it to the Spit14's superior handling if the La-7 cannot convert that advantage into a kill before the energy states reverse.
More of an issue is that the La-7 can disengage in all but the worst situations whereas the Spit14 can only disengage on very conditional situations that are not typical to the MA.
Your trite assesment of the Spit14's capability does not at all address the complexity the mix of strengths and weaknesses each fighter brings to the table.
Some weaknesses of the Spit14:
Fragile.
Short range.
Only middle of the pack speed. (At AH combat altitudes)
Poor high speed handling.
Poor low speed handling.
Light ammo load.
Kill me icon
Mediocre performance without WEP
Some strengths of the Spit14:
Excellent climb on WEP.
Can out turn anything it can't outrun. (Except maybe P-51s due to their flaps)
Great acceleration.
Good firepower.
Decent visibility.
Excellent high altitude performance. (Not that this matters in AH)
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It climbs worse than the RL Spit AFAIK.
Too lazy to test right now, but should make 20K in 5 minutes with full tanks.
Our XIV climbs slower than our 109G2.....
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Originally posted by SirLoin
109G10 vs LA7 in DA..G10 wins everytime(or should)
You're on crack.
:D
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Originally posted by SirLoin
109G10 vs LA7 in DA..G10 wins everytime(or should)
i guess i suck, because i lose that fight every time
put me in the la7, and there is not a 109 i have fought i can't at least damage and make him try to run to friendlies, or outright kill
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Heh.. I'll chime in on the side of Karnak and Kweassa, I doubt you'd have as much luck impugning my argument based on some skill gap.
The Spit 14 is no better all-round than a 109G-10 or La-7, I can't see why it is perked as heavily as it is. The F4U-4 can be beaten by a well-flown G-10, and it has 6 .50s instead of 4 Hizookas, which makes it rather less overwhelming than a Tempest. And to be honest, both of us know (or at least I know, and you should know) that on a pure A2A basis the La7 is a better fighter than the Tempest is.
I can't see, and I believe this was the original argument, why the Spit 14 and F4U4 are perked as heavily as they are while their contemporaries (G-10, La-7, P-51) which are just as capable, are free.
I'm actually for an unperk everything kind of arena... leave the jets perked, let people fly anything else they want.
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that on a pure A2A basis the La7 is a better fighter than the Tempest is
It is time for your medication.
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Lol, it is time for you to pull your head out of your ass. Can you even fit through doors anymore?
I'm sure even with an ego as large as yours has gotten, you aren't going to come out and say you are better than Lev, so ask him to take you to the DA sometime and do La-7 vs Tempest.
I'll tell you when we did it... the La-7 won every time, no matter who was in it.
Now, Lev probably isn't the 1337-@c3, you are.... but it was convincing enough for me.
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Guess when I posted this, expecting a civilised discussion was too much :(
Only comment I really have is that in the current MA it is no more of an uber killer than ANY of the top 3 or 4.
Perking it is just a way of for all intensent purposes of turning it into a hanger queen.
I really don't see why people should be so apprehensive or against unperking it and quite a few other planes. Unless of course your a Lala, Pony, D9 driver.
Guess it would kinda suck to have an RAF plane that could finally fight on = terms.
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No, I've never been big on civil, especially when people aren't civil to me.
By the way.. I think the phrase you were looking for was "intents and purposes".
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Lol it was "intents and porpoises", couldn't remember it.
Wasn't specifcally aimed at you the (un-civility? started earlier), was just hoping for a civil discussion when I first posted.
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I'm sure even with an ego as large as yours has gotten, you aren't going to come out and say you are better than Lev, so ask him to take you to the DA sometime and do La-7 vs Tempest.
Who's saying they're better than anyone? I never make claims that I'm better than anyone unless they are forced upon me like they were in this thread.
Ofcourse I'm gonig to be sarcastic and say my skills are superior and that the average stick needs a perk plane to beat me. After I'm told that's the case. Its a joke if you ask me. And I still dont understand where Kewenesa was going with that. He's the first one to mention anything about my "skills". I simply followed him up with a smartass comment. Smartass remarks deserve nothing more.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone can be just as good as the next guy in this game. So that's as far as I'll go with that.
You come in with a blanket statement saying...
that on a pure A2A basis the La7 is a better fighter than the Tempest is
and naturally I'm going to laugh at you.
And if you dont know why the Tempest is a far superior plane than the La7 is then you dont know half of what I thought you knew about this game.
Burn outs like you are far too easy to piss off. I dont know what it was about you. The suicide note you wrote on our squad forum or the fact that you b1tch and moan about every dam thing that happens to you in your life... But somewhere, in all that BS, you completely lost it.
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did the spit v vs spit 9 thing...5 will lose with equal pilots. the 9 climbs better and can dictate the fight..just a matter of avoiding some spray on the rope. jmho
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**** off Morph... you let something go to your head. I'm not sure if it was your skank bellybutton girl, or your "1337 skillz"... but you aren't you once were.
By the way, assclown, you can't have it both ways...
Why in the hell would I want to prove that I'm better than you?
Everyone already knows I am. Showing you would prove nothing to noone.
But when someone shows up who you KNOW you aren't better than.. it is backpedal city...
Who's saying they're better than anyone? I never make claims that I'm better than anyone unless they are forced upon me like they were in this thread.
So what is it? You just going to say how awesome you are till everyone believes it?
But if you'd like to SEE that the La-7 is a better fighter than the Tempest, ask Lev to take you to the DA sometime. In spite of your huge ****ing mouth, apparently you've still got a lot to learn. As for me, I've got nothing to prove to anybody, including ****tards like you.
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**** off Morph... you let something go to your head. I'm not sure if it was your skank bellybutton girl, or your "1337 skillz"... but you aren't you once were.
Are you drunk?
I already know I'm better than you. And when my "skills" aren't enough to beat you its my better attitude that will every time.
We both know that... Its easily proven... I'm here playing and enjoying the game... And you are not.
You wanted to take it to a personal level. I followed you. I really didnt think you'd want to go there. After all I do know much more about you than you should have let me know. I guess you've forgotten the many occasions in the game and out of the game where I'd pat you on the back and tell you its going to get better and that you've got more to live for that you thought you had. The personal attacks on me or anyone in my life are a clear example of how desperate you've become.
For someone who hasnt a thing to prove you sure do let out alot of steam.
You take statements I've said, and pull them out of context in a poor attempt to prove that you're right. Its hard for anything you say to hold any water when you take what I say and clearly lie about its intent.
No ones back peddling here but you Urchin. You've flipped out and have gone bonkers on this board more times than I can count. Its your lack of sanity that blinds you from the truth... Or the way things really are.
You should really think harder next time before you open your mouth.
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No, I made a statement, one that is easily verified. You, seeing that you couldn't make attacks based on "skillz" decided to take to the personal level, not me.
Doesn't matter to me much one way or another, to be honest. If you want to be a sweetheart, feel free. Not like I'm going to meet your or your hook... I mean looker of a girlfrfiend anytime soon, unless I come up to NY with some extra spending money... who knows, I might get lucky and pick the "right" one.
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Urchin: Morph's 'unless they are forced upon me' statement prevents those from being a contradiction.
And what does Lev in a la7 have to do with the uber-ness of the Tempest?
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Not a thing, the fact that "Uber lev" lost every fight in which he was in an Tempest and I was in an La7 should mean something though.
As far as it not being a contradiction.... horse****. Kweassa and Karnak make some statements, Morphous decides to disagree. His grounds for disagreement? "I'm more 1337 than you are, therefore you are wrong". Sure, it was forced upon him. Uh huh.
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Is that a padlock I hear being clamped onto this thread?
Oh yeah, HTC is closed for the weekend, guess if the personal laundry is still being waved about it will come on Monday:cool:
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"I'm more 1337 than you are, therefore you are wrong". Sure, it was forced upon him. Uh huh.
Did they teach you how to read down there yet? Apparently not I guess.
I was told I was better than the masses. I was also told that the masses needed an deperked perk plane to beat me. Both statements in my eyes being completely BS and nothing more than that. I obliged them both and agreed in the most sarcastic manner I could. I can understand why you wouldnt see that. Being that you are so very desperate and will pull anything I say out of context to use against me.
Then you come trudging in with your embarrassingly big mouth and bring Leviathn into it. This isn't between me you and him. Altho you seemed to think it was. I also never made the claim to be even half as good as Levi is. If you can show me where it is that I said I was I'd be happy.
The thread you were hanging onto has been broken. And now on your way down you're trying to take as many out with you before you hit rock bottom. Its clear that rock botton is here, and you've hit it.
The only problem with that is... You haven't taken anyone "out". You've just made yourself look even more foolish.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Not a thing, the fact that "Uber lev" lost every fight in which he was in an Tempest and I was in an La7 should mean something though.
As far as it not being a contradiction.... horse****. Kweassa and Karnak make some statements, Morphous decides to disagree. His grounds for disagreement? "I'm more 1337 than you are, therefore you are wrong". Sure, it was forced upon him. Uh huh.
Morph offered his opinion, which a lot of pilots actually value. Kweassa attacked him for not having some proof, which is almost always useless when offered here anyway Then he started talking about Morph proving he is a better pilot. Morph's comment was completely sarcastic if you read it in context. It was also goaded.
Where does this idea come from that you need "grounds for disagreement"? It sounds like your saying people arn't alowed to disagree with you unless they can provide some bull**** meaningless numbers that if looked upon at the right angle may support your view. Almost every time I've seen someone offer proof here reguarding plane performance in game it's been completely useless, as simplifying performance to just a few numbers doesn't really help anybody to understand the ride.
And hey good for you taking down Lev in his tempest. It doesn't really matter here tho as this mess is about the MA environment, and the tempest is much much better there. It's not really a bird for co-E nose-to-nose merges. If you could show us a film where you use your awsome la7 to pounce Lev or reverse him then maybe I'd understand how it's so great. All I have to go by now is how I see Lev landing ludicrius numbers of kills in his tempie all the time and I pretty much never see you land in your lala.
-p.
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You dont have to have to be very good, or have very much skill, or talent to do well in a spit.
If my 8 year old daughter (7 at the time) whos only experiance in this game is in watching me, can get 2 kills in a spit, anyone can
Thats not to say there are skilless talantless people that fly spits.
It saddens me to say I see very skilled people in them all the time.
It saddens me because these folks I see I know dont need that kind fo crutch to do well.
Im never impressed with someone who gets kills in spits
Im far more impressed with someone who gets kills in say a P47, Or even a Hurricane or Niki.
Spits are good if all you want to do is get easy kills.
If you want to be challanged, fly just about anything else
If this isn't a troll, then its got to be the biggest bunch of bullpoop that I have read in quite some time.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Did they teach you how to read down there yet? Apparently not I guess.
I was told I was better than the masses. I was also told that the masses needed an deperked perk plane to beat me. Both statements in my eyes being completely BS and nothing more than that. I obliged them both and agreed in the most sarcastic manner I could. I can understand why you wouldnt see that. Being that you are so very desperate and will pull anything I say out of context to use against me.
Then you come trudging in with your embarrassingly big mouth and bring Leviathn into it. This isn't between me you and him. Altho you seemed to think it was. I also never made the claim to be even half as good as Levi is. If you can show me where it is that I said I was I'd be happy.
The thread you were hanging onto has been broken. And now on your way down you're trying to take as many out with you before you hit rock bottom. Its clear that rock botton is here, and you've hit it.
The only problem with that is... You haven't taken anyone "out". You've just made yourself look even more foolish.
No, it wasn't even between me and you until you decided it was. You shot off at the mouth, and I came in and agreed with the people you were shooting at.
I'm done with you, just take me up on the suggestion. Take Lev over to the DA, fight La-7 vs Temp. Then switch up the planes. If you are half as good as you say you are... the La-7 will win no matter who is in it.
As far as you being better than me... I guess you'll never find out. I'm certainly not going to waste my time coming back to find out one way or the other. Maybe if you say it often enough, it'll become true.
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Originally posted by pellik
And hey good for you taking down Lev in his tempest. It doesn't really matter here tho as this mess is about the MA environment, and the tempest is much much better there. It's not really a bird for co-E nose-to-nose merges. If you could show us a film where you use your awsome la7 to pounce Lev or reverse him then maybe I'd understand how it's so great. All I have to go by now is how I see Lev landing ludicrius numbers of kills in his tempie all the time and I pretty much never see you land in your lala.
-p.
You apparently are used to reading Moutheous posts... that wasn't meant as some indicator of my skill, rather, it was meant as an indicator of how well the La-7 matches up with the Tempest in a 1v1 fight. I couldn't tell you exactly how every fight went (other than the standard DA rules for merging), but I still remember the La-7 won every fight.
Perhaps I should make it more clear... when Lev was in the Tempest and I was in the La-7, I won. When I was in the Tempest and Lev was in the La-7, he won. This isn't 2 fights... it was a series of fights. To me, that says the La-7 is a better fighter than the Tempest is, in the original context (which was stated to be a pure A2A matchup).
As far as me landing kills in the La-7... I'd be shocked if you EVER saw me land them... I haven't played AH at all in ~3 months, and for the last 6 months I was playing, it was under a different name.
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No, it wasn't even between me and you until you decided it was. You shot off at the mouth, and I came in and agreed with the people you were shooting at.
Noone but you made the choice to come in here and degrade yourself Urchin. I certainly didnt "force" you to post here and and make yourself look like a fool.
For me this game was NEVER about who was better than who. If that were the case I'd have been gone a long time ago. You on the other hand... This game has always been just that to you. Some way for you to prove to those around you that you were better than them. In the end you lost out regardless. And the only one who was losing the entire time was you and you alone.
Do you honestly think that anyone who understands the fact this is just a game and a way to have fun in some spare time, cares about how good you or anyone else is for that matter? I think you do. And I also think that the reason you dont play anymore is because no one did give a watermelon how good or god like you thought you were at it. And that got to you so much so that you had to call it quits.
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Lol, I don't think I've boasted about how "godlike" I am at AH in about 3 years.
Do I think I know how every plane stacks up vs every other plane? Yea, I do (think that at least). Do you? Apparently you do, else you wouldn't get as defensive and angry as you appear to get when someone has an opinion that differs from yours.
I quit simply because the game lost all appeal for me, I never laboured under the illusion that anyone gave a **** who I was or how good I was.
I certainly don't think I made a fool of myself, or if I did at least I wasn't alone. At least I have a better picture of what kind of person you are now Morph, thanks for that.
I think you must be majoring in psych at whatever community college you are at now... I also think you probably outta change your major.
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I certainly don't think I made a fool of myself, or if I did at least I wasn't alone. At least I have a better picture of what kind of person you are now Morph, thanks for that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ofcourse a fool never see's what he is. Hence... the "fool".
You knew who and how I was long before this. Back when you would call me on the phone at 2-3am in the morning and I would listen to you talk about your lifes problems and offer you advice on how to handle things.
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Ye Gods, PLEASE lock this thread!
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:confused:
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Final summary...
Spit 14 is perked way too high, thus RAF fans are feeling the injustice they have to contend with...
There are other planes that can compete with spit 14 on equal terms...
the planes are... P-51s, Bf-109G-10 (a match for Spit XIV... for FREE!!!), La-7, Fw-190D-9 (The Luftwaffe's version of its Tempest), P-38L
recomendation(s)
*un-perk all prop-driven fighters
*lighly perk ALL "1944" late war planes to create a mid-war scenery...
(Bf-109G-10, Fw-190A-8/D-9/F-8, P-51B/D, P-47D-25/D-40, P-38L, F4U-1D, Typhoon, La-7, Yak-9U, A6M5, N1K2-J, Ki-84
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So thats it then, the spit14 stays perked, but at a lower cost:p :D
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Originally posted by 1K3
recomendation(s)
*un-perk all prop-driven fighters
*lighly perk ALL "1944" late war planes to create a mid-war scenery...
(Bf-109G-10, Fw-190A-8/D-9/F-8, P-51B/D, P-47D-25/D-40, P-38L, F4U-1D, Typhoon, Mosquito, La-7, Yak-9U, A6M5, N1K2-J, Ki-84
:confused:
Mosquito? Perked?
That is a mid 1943 fighter-bomber. First sorties in July, 1943.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Final summary...
Spit 14 is perked way too high, thus RAF fans are feeling the injustice they have to contend with...
There are other planes that can compete with spit 14 on equal terms...
the planes are... P-51s, Bf-109G-10 (a match for Spit XIV... for FREE!!!), La-7, Fw-190D-9 (The Luftwaffe's version of its Tempest), P-38L
recomendation(s)
*un-perk all prop-driven fighters
*lighly perk ALL "1944" late war planes to create a mid-war scenery...
(Bf-109G-10, Fw-190A-8/D-9/F-8, P-51B/D, P-47D-25/D-40, P-38L, F4U-1D, Typhoon, Mosquito, La-7, Yak-9U, A6M5, N1K2-J, Ki-84
ROFL did you just pick planes at random here?!? So perk the a8, f8 but not the a5? A5 will pwn an a8 or f8. The f4u1D?? Why?
You want the worst jug of the whole bunch perked? :lol Why not perk the SBD while you are at it.
The yak9 and a6m5 have current eny values over 30, and I don't understand the mosquito one bit. The 51B should NEVER be on this list with the limited HP and 4 gun package.
I guess what I mean is, you just can't do this by years because this isn't the real WWII... this is a scenario and events play out differently in scenarios
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lol:o
our mossie is indeed 1943.
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Originally posted by Howitzer
ROFL did you just pick planes at random here?!? So perk the a8, f8 but not the a5? A5 will pwn an a8 or f8. The f4u1D?? Why?
You want the worst jug of the whole bunch perked? :lol Why not perk the SBD while you are at it.
The yak9 and a6m5 have current eny values over 30, and I don't understand the mosquito one bit. The 51B should NEVER be on this list with the limited HP and 4 gun package.
I guess what I mean is, you just can't do this by years because this isn't the real WWII... this is a scenario and events play out differently in scenarios
(oh my god... another never-ending cycle, this whole feud should have ended after i posted a conclusion!:D)
The planes that i listed are not random!
btw if HTC will perked the "top 5-6-7", then F4U-1D should go on that list because it's a USN's late war carrier (4-44) and land fighter. infact the F4U-1D only entered USN carrier fleet after following some suggestions from the Royal Navy, who werre then using Corsairs on their own carrier fleet.
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Okay, I'll summarize too.
1. Current agenda on perks, according to HTC, IIRC, is based on;
* arena balance
* superior performance
* historical rarity
2. All of each country's 'ultimate fighters' are very capable and powerful, and are in a class of their own.
3. The variation of performance between the late war fighters are well matched, and yet some are unjustly highly perked.
4. Thus, if perks MUST be applied to the Spit14
1) ALL of its contemporaries must be perked at simular prices
or
2) The Spit14 must be as free as its contemporaries
5. I suggested 1) in the form of NPA. People hated it. They say perking stuff is limiting planes.
So, I suggested 2) sometime before. Others have also mentioned the fact that the Spit14 is perked way too high.
.....
Except, the funny thing is, they didn't care jackshi* about arena balance and the fact how 4~5 planes dominate entire plane usage out of some 50~60 plane choices when I was suggesting 1).
All that "freedom of using whatever planes I like is important" speeches.. "I'm gonna quit if I have to start paying for my favorite plane" rants.. the pseudo-logic of "newbies need some superplanes to be free so they can adept to the MA"...
Where's it now? Where'd it all go?
Poof!
Suggest a perk-free spit14 and all that is gone. It just disappears. Suddenly people are worried about balance.. suddenly, they don't care if some people's favorite plane are perked or not.
thus,
6. I accuse them of hypocrisy, faulty reasoning, claims without proof, and plain ol' selfishness.
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Actually almost sums up how I feel -
Either-
1) Unperk the 14
Or
2) Perk all the contempories (not my 1st choice though)
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If a decent Spit IX or VIII is brought to AH, the XIV will disappear, for the difference in performance will be too small.
The only edge the XIV holds is speed in some alt bands, - not even sure if in all of them, - see the spitfire graph in this thread.
And yet, there could be no excuse to perk a 1943 aircraft.
So, it might still have to be perked, but a little only.
I'd say 10 points are good ;)
Spits are just too darned good, :D
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spit9 is such a good plane.
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Originally posted by Angus
If a decent Spit IX or VIII is brought to AH, the XIV will disappear, for the difference in performance will be too small.
The only edge the XIV holds is speed in some alt bands, - not even sure if in all of them, - see the spitfire graph in this thread.
And yet, there could be no excuse to perk a 1943 aircraft.
So, it might still have to be perked, but a little only.
I'd say 10 points are good ;)
Spits are just too darned good, :D
This is what I'm afraid of, if we do get at VIII that it will also be perked. Like I said, can't have the RAF with a post 1942 plane that's unperked.
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So, perk the RAF !!!:D
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They are lol.
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They should add a free Spitfire Mk XII. It has the same problem as the La-7, in that it is a terrible high altitude fighter and a great low altitude fighter, so it shouldn't be perked.
Of course the fact that it would be far superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV for AH purposes is just icing on the cake.
Remember, low altitude dominance doesn't get a fighter perked, just high altitude dominance.
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Hey Karnak!
Look at the graph of Spitfires aomewhere above in the thread.
The VIII is a 400 mph+ fighter, and run by a merlin 70 it's high alt performance is also good.
I think the line on the graph ends just where the second stage supercharger should be cutting in.
Anyway, that is a tropicalized aircraft from 1943, it's internal fuel capacity is double to the Mk IX, it climbs to 20K in some 5 minutes, and it's quite fast.
Makes one wonder. Throw that one into AH without a perk tag, and there will be whining. Basically a faster Spit IX with 2x range and a better ROC than our Mk XIV has now!
So, those RAF thingies are too good.
Perk the RAF :D
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Remember, low altitude dominance doesn't get a fighter perked, just high altitude dominance.
Thats your opinion, but I's say total dominance...
above 5k the aircraft is untouchable.. (even being slower the combination of acceleration, view, cannon, climb, e retention and it still being a spitfire = total domination...)
below 5k its still a spitfire, a fast one at that.. with lots of engine power.. (try to rope it i dare ya.. even on deck..)
its a shame this plane got a bad rap.. imo its the second best in the game all around (f4u4 being the best, non jet that is..) and the best 1 vs 1 fighter in the game able to equalize almost any situation in a 1 vs 1.
I dont agree that some think the la7 and g10 can get with it.. if running is a consideration then yes i agree.. they can out run the spitfire14.. thats about it.. hands down equal pilots the spit14 will cream those two... (in my opinion even if the those 2 had e advantage they will either run or die.. now thats some smack talk... but imo its true..)
(this isn't a attack Kwessa Karnak and gang..) :D
DoctorYo
PS: I dont think its RAF conspiracy i think its more of game unbalancing conspiracy and the RAF boys should take their early/middle war aircraft as a compliment for being perked up..(it was that good during the war its that good here) If its just a best of the best... then why 262, chog etc..(p47 superbird hint hint) its balancing issue.. Remember the chog.... and the mentality that went with it.. now insert the spitfire, amount of use the combined spitfires get and factor that into the spit14 as the premier spit and you got balance trouble... Im all for balancing the other latewar.. would change the arena for the better, with latewar being more rare.. how or if HTC will do that your guess is good as mine.. 2 weeks maybe.. like TOD...
:lol
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Interesting that "balance" keeps coming up in this discussion. I am all for balance but what we have now is complete and total imbalance. I did an informal unscientific survey over the weekend by watching a long film i made and counting until 200 cons had been identified.
Out of 200 enemies (bish) I counted 173 of them were one of the big-5. That's awfully close to 90% fellas. I agree that unperking the Spit14 is a bad idea, and almost nobody here is advocating that so drop it. Lowering the perk value has merit but what we need for balance is the big-5 to have small costs attached.
But that is bad for business, so what is the answer? I don't see one other than learn to live with skies full of Pony/Dora/N1K/Spit/G10s, like we haven't had 3 years to get used to them already eh?
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Edbert and Doc, both excellet... I agree almost 100%.
In regards to the Spit14 and its abilities, what it can do and how well it can do it, Doc is spot on.
I also agree with Ed in that perking the late war planes, "the big 5" as you people have come to call them is a bad idea. Its not only a bad idea but I will also agree with ed that its bad business.
I don't know what some of you people are looking for. Is it a plane that will go anywhere, do anything, live through the worst of odds no matter what?
Because if thats what you're looking for I wish you the best of luck.
You fight accordingly... And if you do not you end up back in the tower for a second try. The only plane where you can fly in and out of a mass of late war fighters with is the Jet. And even then, the chances of you making it back aren't as good as some of you seem to be wishing.
I think the only reason the Spit14 isn't used often is because right above the Spit14's price tag, you have the tempest. Which IMO is the absolute best prop fighter for the MA. also its the best so far as getting what you pay for. If the price was lowered to or just above the Chog I feel it would be used much, much more.
I dont get you guys one bit. You b1tch and moan about the MA being filled with late war fighters.... YET you are promoting the idea of unperking another late war monster. Which is just going to add to your initial gripe...
Hell, even i'd fly it if it werent perked. I'll pick, vulch, furball, Ho, run... You name it. No different than I would if I were in an La7.
How in gods name is unperking this beast going to help the MA?
It wont... Period. You know it and I know it.
But there's a reason its' perked. Again, I agree that it is too expensive for what it is. But it does deserve a price.
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Originally posted by Karnak
They should add a free Spitfire Mk XII. It has the same problem as the La-7, in that it is a terrible high altitude fighter and a great low altitude fighter, so it shouldn't be perked.
Of course the fact that it would be far superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV for AH purposes is just icing on the cake.
Remember, low altitude dominance doesn't get a fighter perked, just high altitude dominance.
I'm slipping in my old age! Someone mentioned Spit XIIs and I didn't catch it right away.
Can't have em, cause I'd have to quit flying 38s again :)
Spit XII entered service with 41 Squadron in February 43 btw so it's not a late war bird. In fact it came out of front line service in September 44 when 41 Squadron transitioned to XIVs.
Dan/CorkyJr
whose first love has always been the Spit XII, long before flight sims showed up.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1103870266_41spitxiis.jpg)
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Droool :aok
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Morpheus,
So far as I can tell only a couple of people are advocating making the Spit XIV free. Most of us just think it isn't worth anywhere near the price given the fact that it is slow (for a perk plane), fragile and with average firepower. It should be cheaper.
And yes, I was digging at the La-7 with the Spit XII comments, but I was also serious. Low altitude dominance is more important in AH, with its ephasis on ground attack, than is high altitude performance. Yet it is the Ta152 and Spitfire Mk XIV that are perked, not the La-7.
I also agree that the Spit XIV would beat an La-7 in a one on one fight to the death. However, I would bet on the La-7s in a 12 on 12 fight in the MA.
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OK instead of unperking it as I suggested lets do this then -
1) Reduce the cost drastically.
2) Give us a Mk VIII or Mk XII FREE
Just lets please have an RAF fighter post 1942 that isn't perked, isn't asking friggin much.
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There you go again,
Which IMO is the absolute best prop fighter for the MA. also its the best so far as getting what you pay for.
How exactly is the Spit14 the best again?
You are entirely entitled to your opinion, but I have to trip over it again that it has no basis.
Imagine a 1943 setup: P-47, P-38G, Fw190A-5, Bf109G-6. Spit9, La-5FN.
The ratio of 'superiority' our Spit14 has against its contemporary fighters, is EXACTLY the same the Spit9 has against it's '43 contemporaries.
Look at the Spit9. It's not the fastest in '43. It's the second best climber with only 5 min WEP, doesn't roll all too well, nor is it as superior as the La-5FN at low alts.
Many would consider that the Spit9 would be probably the best pure 'dogfighter' in a 1vs1 sense in a '43 setup.
However noone in their right minds are gonna ask for a Spit9 to be perked in that kind of setup, nor is anyone gonna consider the Spit9 is totally superior to the P-47, P-38G, Bf109G-6 or the Fw190A-5, La-5FN.
The Spit9 to the P-47, P-38G, Bf109G-6, Fw190A-5....
...is the same as the Spit14 to the P-51D, P-38L, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, La-7.
So why should it be perked, when it's contemporaries are not?
How in gods name is unperking this beast going to help the MA?
How will it hurt the MA?
It can't hurt the MA in anyway.
Adding one more late war beast into the fray doesn't make jackshi* of a difference to the MA already dominated by the post-'44 planes.
It's not a sole performer which will make every other plane obsolete.
If the gameplay is to stay this way, then might as well another good late war plane and enjoy the mix up. No?
ps) besides, all the other fans get their 'late-war version' rides for free. Why shouldn't the RAF (or even USN) fans not be entitled to such? Because their planes are drastically superior?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
There you go again,
Which IMO is the absolute best prop fighter for the MA. also its the best so far as getting what you pay for.
How exactly is the Spit14 the best again? [/B]
Kweassa, he was saying the Tempest is the best and the Spit XIV being worse and nearly the same price means nobody uses the Spit XIV.
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If I may...
ONE source of miscommunication here is the difference between one plane being the better in a 1V1 and the other being better in the MA.
1V1 the 14 is better then the Tempest, and I wouls say it should win every duel between them as the La7 usually does. In the MA the 14 simply cannot disengage as easily or kill as quickly as the Tempest. The ability to end fights in a single snapshot with regularity and disengage nearly at will makes the Tempest the clear MA dominator.
At least that is what I think.
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There you go again,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which IMO is the absolute best prop fighter for the MA. also its the best so far as getting what you pay for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How exactly is the Spit14 the best again?
You are entirely entitled to your opinion, but I have to trip over it again that it has no basis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Kweassa
There you go again,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which IMO is the absolute best prop fighter for the MA. also its the best so far as getting what you pay for.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How exactly is the Spit14 the best again?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kweassa, he was saying the Tempest is the best and the Spit XIV being worse and nearly the same price means nobody uses the Spit XIV.
Spend more time reading and less time typing Kewnesew.
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Doesn't change a single thing Dopeus.
You still retain the Spit14 as a perk worthy material without any kind of reason given.
Somehow, it's 'best' and you just seem to know it without having to analyze, compare, test, and etc etc..
..and I call that a crock of bullshi* as with every single one of your post in this crappy thread of a discussion.
You just simply don't like them, and don't like the idea of a maneuverable Spitfire, that is at fast enough to compete with the rest of the free dragster planes in the set.
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ROFL.
The advantages aren't obvious to you are they dimwit?
It can keep with or out pace a 51. The Spit14 out turn the 51 with little effort at all and once thats said and done it can accelerate more rapidly than the 51 could ever dream of. And I concider the 51 to be one of the best and easiest non perk planes in the MA to survive in and still kill at the same time.
How do I know this? Its called experience in game genious. I've fought spit14s enough to know what they are good at and what they are not.
Its for its abilities above that it should be perked.
The spit14 is one of the best turn fighters in the game. At the same time its one of the most deadly E fighters this game has in it. It can climb excellent, accelerate excellent and can turn excellet. That makes it worth of perking.
The Chogs guns alone put it in the perk category. Your lucky the Tiffy isn't perked. And the Chog takes some lvl of skill to fight in and be effective. If you get slow in it, and are in a crowd, you're in trouble. But I imagine you'll say im wrong there tool. The Spit14 can chew a chog apart and spit it out as if it were a snack. OH WAIT, you want diagram showing that now i bet. Ooops.
What in the hell would you like me to do? Offer you a power point presentation showing you that the Spit14 does indeed fall in the perk plane category?
You can read all the books, and cut and paste from google all you want sweetheart. Until you can prove to me that in game that the spit14 isn't a perk plane. Anything you say means squat.
And one last thing dipchit. If you think I've got something against spits think again. The spit5 and 9 are two of my favorite rides in the MA. I know what both of those planes can do too. And enjoy flying them very much. So to say I dislike any of the spits is nothing more than bullchit. But from you bullchit seems to come easy.
You're nothing more than a little book worm who thinks she knows it all and anything to the contrary of what you say is absurd furthermore its just got to be wrong.
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Lol kinda surprised the Tiffy isn't perked, after all it's reasonably fast, great guns and most of all RAF.
Just give us RAF guys a free Spit VIII or XII and therefore stop limiting the free RAF planes to 1942. It's a joke.
Suppose you couldn't have a non US plane dominating the game though, what would the world come to. LOL
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I know you hate to be contradicted... but the Spit 14 is a ~10 mph slower than the P-51D on the deck, which means it is also slower than the G-10, D-9, and La-7. Even on WEP. It does out-accelerate the P-51... but afaik it doesn't outaccelerate the G-10 and La-7. If I'm wrong on that, I'm not wrong enough for it to make a difference, the Spit 14 can't get away from a G-10 or La-7 the way they can get away from it.
It does climb better than those 3 planes though, as long as the WEP holds out. As far as turning goes.. I probably don't have as much experience in the Spit 14 as you do, but I'd say that while the Spit 14 probably can out-turn the P-51, the P-51 would be a helluva lot more stable in a low speed fight.
I agree about the Chog, I also think that is why the Tempest is perked as highly as it is, since it is basically just an almost La-7 with 4 Hizookas.
But the point isn't that the Spit 14 tears up Chogs... the Chog isn't an outstanding fighter anyway. It is a good fighter with great guns. The La-7 is a great fighter with good guns, the G-10 is a great fighter with pretty crappy guns, and the D-9 just sucks all-round as a fighter... but it is good for the bore n zoom crap. The spit 14, in my opinion, is a G-10 with Hizookas for 5 minutes, then it is just a G-2 with Hizookas. In other words, a good fighter with great guns.
So why is it perked as heavily as it is?
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So why is it perked as heavily as it is?
Thats a good question Urchin.
I dont know how many times I have to say it. But I agree that its over perked.
Those planes which you mentioned above, which are among the fasted fighters in the game have a small advantage as far as speed goes. But... Once you get them to turn and burn up their E they're dead men. And you know it. I dont care if you have SuperNathBDP in a G10 odt. Anyone who knows anything about spits will eat up a G10 in a turn fight with a Spit14. And the G10, being the best accelerating plane you mentioned, wont have the luxury to disengage and "reset" the fight against the fast accelerating Spit14. So once its in the turn fight its for keeps.
You know as well as I do how to sucker E fighters in with a slower plane. And once you get them turned and burnt out their energy we kill them. The deffencive advantages of the Spit14 when I think about it are almost endless.
The same goes for any of the fighers you mentioned Urchin. In a turn fight a Spit is a Spit. Once you get it slow in a turn fight with the rest of those planes you listed, its going to make short fast work of them.
I'm sure I will be told to go screw myself again and that I know nothing and have no "PROOF". The only "PFOOF" I have is what I've learned to be fact's about the planes. Learning what they are and are not good at.
The spit14 is a very well rounded deadly machine that can do everything very well. Very Well. Very Well. Its not the best at one thing or another. But it can do it all VERY WELL. And thats why its perked.
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In one of my first flights with a Spit XIV I got into a turnfight with a light P51.
Wasn't so much to choose between in the turning, took some 8-12 circles before I was on his 6 properly.
The P51B is probably even better (it was a D)
Anyway, the XIV is overperked. And again, that would be seen better if we had a Mk VIII. Or would you perk a 1943 aircraft....?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Like I said, can't have the RAF with a post 1942 plane that's unperked.
You already have the 1944 late model Typhoon 1b, and it is unperked.
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Surely our Mossie is post 42 as well.
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Originally posted by MANDO
You already have the 1944 late model Typhoon 1b, and it is unperked.
beep beep whats is the difference between the 42 and the 44 typhoon ?
New propeller , new canopy and a reliable engine.
Now what is the difference between the 190A5 and the D9
Or between the 109F4 and the G10 ?
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And the Spit V vs the XIV ;)
And the RL Spit XIV and ours?
And a good IX or VIII and our IX...??
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Originally posted by straffo
New propeller , new canopy and a reliable engine.
May be this indicating that the Typh design was really finished in 1944? First M262 prototype flew in 1941, that doesnt mean that 262 was a 1941 plane.
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Either the Spitfire Mk XIV needs to be remodeled with +25lbs boost or it needs to be reduced in price. One or the other.
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Originally posted by MANDO
May be this indicating that the Typh design was really finished in 1944? First M262 prototype flew in 1941, that doesnt mean that 262 was a 1941 plane.
Well this unfinished design was used in several squadrons and was the backbone of the 2TAF.
Not bad , not bad at all :)
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Originally posted by straffo
Well this unfinished design was used in several squadrons and was the backbone of the 2TAF.
Not bad , not bad at all :)
On the other hand it was not considered a succesful fighter. I would say it was put into service too early and with notorious precipitation trying to match the new speed levels achieved by the german 190s.
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Well, the Typhoon was also a quite succesful ground attack aircraft.
Something so fast it's almost uninterceptable hauling 2000 lbs and sporting Hizookas at the same time.
But really, our Spitfire IX is off.
It's a high alt aircraft (and very good up high), but slower and has a less ROC than later Mk IX's, and only half the range of the VIII.
The armament is hybrid, - I belive it did not exist on this type, but on the XIV.
If I had a vote, I'd ask for the VIII or the IX on 25 boost, and that our XIV either being lowered in price, or corrected.
Gonna check time to 20K right now ;)
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Originally posted by MANDO
On the other hand it was not considered a succesful fighter. I would say it was put into service too early and with notorious precipitation trying to match the new speed levels achieved by the german 190s.
Yep, it was out there to try and stop the hit and run raids on the south coast of England by the FW-190s. The Spit XII was introduced for the same reason
The XIIs of 91 Squadron putting a fairly serious dent in those 190 operations when they got 5 190s for no loss on May 25, 1943.
Tiffie never really excelled in air to air, but was definately a workhorse as a fighter-bomber.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Ok, from opening up, on WEP as it lasts..
Full fuel load, fuel burn as in TA which is faster than RL
5 minutes left my Spit XIV at 18K, for 20 it was some 5:45
A RL Mk XIV should be there in 5. I think with the same boost.
Note, that both the IX and VIII boosted will be 45 seconds faster to the same alt than our AH XIV, - but in RL equal.
Of a +25 boost mk XIV, I do not know the performance.
One must also bear in mind that AH WEP has limits that were not there in RL, - you could basically push your Spitfire throttle through the gate and keep it there as long as it went. There were examples of Pilots that panicked and ran on full WEP for something like 30 minutes without harming the engine.
Anyway, 109G2 from AH, 9700 feet in 3 minutes, in 5 mins at 17.6, and in 5:50 it hits 20K.
Not sure of the boosts of that one in AH, but I guess 1.42, and that would leave it like a minute too fast.
So, we have a perked and PORKED Spit XIV :D
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Originally posted by MANDO
On the other hand it was not considered a succesful fighter. I would say it was put into service too early and with notorious precipitation trying to match the new speed levels achieved by the german 190s.
Define successfull fighter 1st ...
Does the Typhoon shine at 30K over Germany ... no
Does it made the German Jabo run on the English coast a dangerous and costly ?
Yes.
Typhoon had succes in her role and her role was not supremacy fighter why do you want to compare her to a supremacy fighter ?
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Originally posted by MANDO
On the other hand it was not considered a succesful fighter. I would say it was put into service too early and with notorious precipitation trying to match the new speed levels achieved by the german 190s.
Thats whay the RAF introduced Spit XII and XIV.
Funnily enough the 190D9 is free, yet its counterpart is perked, or not available.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Thats whay the RAF introduced Spit XII and XIV.
Funnily enough the 190D9 is free, yet its counterpart is perked, or not available.
Change the XIV to a Spit 21 and then you've got a better argument for the perking.
4 cannon, a bit faster, etc.
And it was operational with 91 Squadron prior to the war ending.
Nah I don't really mean it :) How bout a better LFIXe
image is a 91 Squadron Spit 21
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1115751753_spit21.jpg)
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Thats whay the RAF introduced Spit XII and XIV.
Funnily enough the 190D9 is free, yet its counterpart is perked, or not available.
The D9 can't out turn a loaded B17.
And when you get it slow in a group you better start praying for a miracle or a way out. Which getting slow enough in the D9 to become vulnerable happens very fast if you dont play like a panzy.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The D9 can't out turn a loaded B17.
And when you get it slow in a group you better start praying for a miracle or a way out. Which getting slow enough in the D9 to become vulnerable happens very fast if you dont play like a panzy.
I beg to differ there, Morph. Most guys only fly it like a panzy though, so no one ever actually sees what a FW can do being flown aggressively.
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Can it win a in turn fight against a spit14?
What happens to the D9 when he gets suckered in to a turn fight?
Or burns enough E trying for a shot on a spit14?
Can he out accelerate?
Can he out turn it?
Even on the deck... The answer will always be No.
No matter how many passes the D9 makes on the Spit14, the spit14 will always be back up to speed in time to evade yet another boring pass. When that pass is done and the D9 is zooming back up to set up for another... The spit14 is rapidly accelerating up to speed again. No matter how many passes the dora makes, if the spit14 is smart enough he will evade them and if he is still using his head he will offer what looks like a shot for the D9... The D9 will go for it... Burn E trying for it... Thats when you set up for an over shot...
If the shot is not made on the over shot the D9's only hope is that he has enough energy left to get out of dodge and zoom back up to a safe alt.
If he is not fast enough to get out to a safe alt...
There is no out climbing a spit14 in a Dora. If the D9 evades he will burn nearly all his energy and all hope for escape.
After that there is no out turning a spit14 in a D9. There is no running away from a spit14 in a D9 once commited to that extent in a turn fight.
You know as well as I do what will happen in a turn fight with any spit and a D9.
Just because the Spit14 is the most powerful spitfire we have doesnt mean it cant still turn fight. And turn fight well. And if the turn fight is not there it can use its rapid acceleration and excellet climb rate to keep pace.
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I never compared the D9 to the SpitXIV. I was just making a comment on how the D9 is flown in the MA.
Just to let you know though, in a Friday Squad Ops a couple weeks back I was flying with the JB's (eek :D ) in D9's and we ran into an equal force of SpitXIV's at 26k. The spits got annihilated up there by the Dora... now this could have been more a function of the pilots than the planes, who knows, but the engagement was never a contest.
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Two or more D9's working together is one thing.
One can be making a pass and the other can be trailing 2-3k behind the lead plane. When the Spit (or which ever plane you wish to compare) evades the first D9 the second is there.
Thats when the tables can turn very quickly. The odds are already in the favor of the D9's as far as numbers go. And if the D9's are working together as they should, they should make quick work of the con they are after. No matter what it is.
I was comparing the D9 to the Spit14 because Kev wanted to know why the D9 wasnt perked... Or made a comment aluding to such.
The Spit14 is far more capable in areas the D9 is not. And in the areas in which the D9 is better than the a small margine mind you, the Spit14 can still keep pace with the D9.
The D9 is an awsome machine. It is fast, holds E realativly well and has great guns if you know how to use them. It also can remain a stable gun platform at high speeds.
When the D9 gets slow any advantages it had were gone. It doesnt accelerate well, it doesnt turn well and becomes very unstable. Unstable when you try to turn. Sure you can hang there, full flaps, rudder pinned, hopping for an over shot. But there is no chance of out turning anything but another D9 when it gets that slow.
Its only hope against a spit is to BnZ. Once it enters a turn fight and commits to it, its dead.
Edit: I should add that.
In a group, teamwork is essential. The JB's know how to work very well together. The pretty much know what wingman tactics are and use them fairly effectively.
Put 4-5-6 or more players in a plane working very well together against a same number of players who are not working well together and the chances of the poorly organized team's survival is very poor.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Two or more D9's working together is one thing.
One can be making a pass and the other can be trailing 2-3k behind the lead plane. When the Spit (or which ever plane you wish to compare) evades the first D9 the second is there.
Thats when the tables can turn very quickly. The odds are already in the favor of the D9's as far as numbers go. And if the D9's are working together as they should, they should make quick work of the con they are after. No matter what it is.
I was comparing the D9 to the Spit14 because Kev wanted to know why the D9 wasnt perked... Or made a comment aluding to such.
The Spit14 is far more capable in areas the D9 is not. And in the areas in which the D9 is better than the a small margine mind you, the Spit14 can still keep pace with the D9.
The D9 is an awsome machine. It is fast, holds E realativly well and has great guns if you know how to use them. It also can remain a stable gun platform at high speeds.
When the D9 gets slow any advantages it had were gone. It doesnt accelerate well, it doesnt turn well and becomes very unstable. Unstable when you try to turn. Sure you can hang there, full flaps, rudder pinned, hopping for an over shot. But there is no chance of out turning anything but another D9 when it gets that slow.
Its only hope against a spit is to BnZ. Once it enters a turn fight and commits to it, its dea.
Better not say that too loud or the 190 fanatics are going to be screaming loudly about the 190 modeling cause as you know any Luftwaffe plane can outfight an Allied plane :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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So Morpheus if I reformulate your post the SpitXIV should be perked because if your suck in a D9 you will end killed ?
:p
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Better not say that too loud or the 190 fanatics are going to be screaming loudly about the 190 modeling cause as you know any Luftwaffe plane can outfight an Allied plane :)
Dan/CorkyJr
Most know it. Thats why you see them at 20k and the rest of the allied planes under them.
I'm not saying the 190s are incapable of winning a dog fight against any given plane. I'm saying the chances of it doing so against a 1v1 in a spit14/D9 fight are not good. Infact I would give the win to the Spit14 hands down every time.
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Originally posted by straffo
So Morpheus if I reformulate your post the SpitXIV should be perked because if your suck in a D9 you will end killed ?
:p
Want to show me how to out turn a spit14 in a turn fight with a D9?
Edit: Incase you have a hard time reading...
I was telling why a spit14 is perked and whyt he D9 is not.
Read through what I said again please. Come back when you get a clue.
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speaking of 190's low and slow..
; )
lol
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lol 73.
I finished my last final yesterday.
I'm movin back home and should be finished tomorrow.
I shouldnt even be wasting my time posting here and screwing around... I should be back otw back up to campus to finish moving out of my house. But im too lazy and tired to care right now.
I just havent had the energy to do another movie lately. :(
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Want to show me how to out turn a spit14 in a turn fight with a D9?
Edit: Incase you have a hard time reading...
I was telling why a spit14 is perked and whyt he D9 is not.
Read through what I said again please. Come back when you get a clue.
You lost your sense of humour somewhere ?
Concerning your question the last time I met a Spit 14 I outurned it with my Dorka so it's possible.
Don't forget the MA is not a 1v1 environement with equal pilots.
Plus I don't think you will find more than 20% of the player base competent enought use the strenght of XIV.
Count the number of 51D,G10 and D9 you see auger or do stupid moves each day, will those players have they survived in a Spit XIV ?
No.
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I give up. :)
Un perk it.
I dare you.
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If you want the real reason the spit is perked I can give you the answer :
read http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110894
and if you're too lazy to read the thread :
Originally posted by hitech
The different names are there so they can be hunted.
HiTech
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Originally posted by straffo
If you want the real reason the spit is perked I can give you the answer :
read http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110894
and if you're too lazy to read the thread :
Well all that explains is why they USED to have the big "please kill me" tag at long ranges.
Woohoo finally got Morph agreeing ;)
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Thats not saying why its perked Straffo.
Hitech was explaining why it used to have a perk tag at long range.
That entire thread wasn't even about the Spit14 and why its perked. (orginally, until it got Hijacked.)
It was about removing perk icon tags from perk planes.
There was a few posts in there saying how the spit14 shouldnt be perked at all... But the ultimate purpose of that thread was to persuade Hitech into removing the Perk tags from icons. Not to remove the Perk price from the plane.
In Hitech's remark, which i think he was being some what sarcastic when he made it, he is telling them why they have the ICONS that they do.
The idea and remarks in that thread made about removing the perk price from the spit14 wasnt made until after Hitech posted there.
So that comment has nothing to do with perk prices and furthermore, why the plane is perked in the first place.
Again... Just another comment which someone made that is taken out of context to suit their needs and or agenda.
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Again... Just another comment which someone made that is taken out of context to suit their needs and or agenda.
Contrary to your beliefe, it was one of the key arguments made by people who are in support of burdenless Spit14s, that was initially rejected by HT, but in the end, shown its form in the MA, albeit in a compromised form.
The changes in the icon agenda - which effected all planes.. you think HT would have done that if nobody asked for it?
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An in-depth Aces High comparison between 109G-10 and Spitfire Mk. XIV would be interesting...
there's no winner, they're equal
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See there you go again. Twisting words and events around to suit your own agenda.
The initial comment was that HT said what he said and was said to have meant that the spit14 is perked so it can be hunted. THAT was somehow translated from the only comment HT made on that thread.
That translation is completely false.
This argument has nothing to do with Perk tags or icons. It has to do with why the spit14 is perked as high as it is. Why you are so ignorant or thick headed to understand that simple fact is beyond me.
Why or how you can connect the two threads is also beyond me. Unless ofcourse you use the hijackers of that tread as some sort of a connection... The ones who start pissing and moaning about perks...
Never the less, that thread and this thread, the two ideas behind them have nothing to do with one another.
A perk icon has nothing to do with how much a plane costs to get out of the hanger. Unless you're simply stating that a perk plane comes with a perk tag. Even then, it's still meaningless to this discussion.
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Open your eyes and clear your ears.
What does that thread prove?
a) consistent player input, with good reasoning, will change initial attitude the developers had with a certain feature
b) the initial grounds and reasoning that thread held(and ALL of its previous incarnations), was that a change in the icon system would benefit the game in many ways, but it would be especially beneficial for some of the perk planes which had no insurance in survivability such as speed(Me262 or Tempest).
c) What is the key issue in the previous thread is centered on? The raging gangbang whenever a perk plane is visible in the area. Some planes, like the Tempest, despite their high prices, still could manage those situations without much ado, thanks to its pure performance spec in terms of speed, especially deck speed.
But it does become largely problematic for others which are perked at simular ranges and yet, does not possess the survivability the Tempest holds.
d) The issue is self-evident. People use the Tempest way more than the Spit14. Despite the fact their prices are almost equal.
Why? If the Spit14 is as uber and deserving perkfighter as you say, a price difference between 5~10 points would rarely effect a player's natural choice to choose the most cost-efficient plane.
It only indicates that the Spit14 is not cost-efficient: it's too expensive considering its overall performance.
e) Thus, the first planes to benefit from the changed icon system would naturally be the Spit14 and the F4U-4. That very thread, and many of its past incarnations, all have a tendency to specifically mention the Spit14 as its main benefactor to the suggestion.
The two ideas have a very clear, common basis, and you simply choose to ignore it.
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Perk'm or unperk'm, :)
No matter what plane sets we use or don't use, the game will remain relatively the same as it is. There will just be the same pilots, using the same tactics, but maybe in different planes, there will be the same whines.
Most of the complaints I see on this BBS are almost identical to the complaints I saw on the two WWI sims I used to fly. Just the names of the planes and the pilots changed. :)
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The two ideas have a very clear, common basis, and you simply choose to ignore it.
The two ideas have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
One is solely about removing perk tags so Perk planes are less sought after.
And the other(this thread) is about removing or reducing perk value.
The only connection you can make between the two is the whinning big mouths within the threads.
One more thing...
Do you agree or disagree that the Spit14 should remain perked yet the cost be lowered?
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Originally posted by straffo
Typhoon had succes in her role and her role was not supremacy fighter why do you want to compare her to a supremacy fighter ?
On the contrary, its initial (planned) role was just supremacy fighter and more precisely as an interceptor, it was a dissaster and then relegated to jabo tasks. Certainly it was a decent attack plane, but with so poor acceleration, so poor climb rate, so poor rolling capabilities, with a flat area similar to a small bomber, with a pretty low critical mach, structural and engine problems and to finish, did any one say it was able to turn fine? The result was that spits were sistematically performing all the original task of the Typh.
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The two ideas have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
One is solely about removing perk tags so Perk planes are less sought after.
They are both about perk aircraft and their overall efficiency in relation to their perk price. Especially about perk aircraft that is deemed inefficient compared to its overall price rate, and thus must maintain a very conservative and cherrypickin' method of flying.
Remember the "why" behind these perk-related discussions.
One more thing... Do you agree or disagree that the Spit14 should remain perked yet the cost be lowered?
#1. The Spit14 should be free. If it can't be so, all of its contemporaries with simular performance specs should be perked at the same price.
#2. If, a compromise can be reached, it is only when the Spit14 price is down to within 15 points.
#3. My main suggestion always lies in accord with basic agenda: most of the '44+ planes should be perked within 3~5 point range(including the Spit14 and the F4U-4). If that cannot be made possible, my point reverts back to #1 and #2.
So it depends on what range of 'lower perk cost' and under 'what circumstances' you are talking about.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Thats not saying why its perked Straffo.
I thought it was clear : they are perked because HTC decided it will be a perk.
Turn it in all ways you want but it's the only conclusion possible :D
MANDO I won't negate the failure of the Typhoon in it's initial role it's a fact.
Concerning facts I don't agree completly with your list :
Pretty low critical mach => Error or 0.85 is pretty low now :)
Engine problems were also corrected by using twice the number of mechanics used in normal RAF squadrons :p
Turn fine , at least initial turn is better than the Spit V (it's documented)
Dive fine and fast.
Stable gun plateform.