Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Fongman on May 03, 2005, 08:05:47 AM
-
(http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/2005-4/20054710317221.jpg)
-
Nice to see the Lavi, with all its US-developed technology, flying for PRC. We might as well sell China the technology ourselves instead of letting Israel get all of the profits. Perhaps we should start selling Syria the JSF, since our security needs apparently aren't a concern to our best buddy in the ME. Why should we care in return? [edit: Pakistan too, apparently]
There's the radar and missile technology sold to China too, but why pile on.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=357
Charon
-
lol USA is doomed as an airpower if Chinese mass produce this Mattel-looking aircraft!
:p
-
Pfft, we sell all our 20 year old crap, most the f-15 f-16 and f-14's are all 20+ year old air frames.
and the systems altho great for the day, are crap now.
and we have the jaming tech to criple a fleet of them into fast moveing target drones "piloted by the enemy of course" and whats best, is this time we didnt have to waste the time and effort to scrap them, simple.
Sell all your old junk, watch as it used to "try" and attack you back,then blow it away with your new toys, AND get payed for selling your old junk anyhow.
The JSF is a joke, its to please the UN,nothing more.
After all,we have UFo's. (sshhhh dont tell the other guys)
Funny thing is, every "stealth" fighter has been useless from about 2002-3 the us had made some great feets in visual tracking and seeking type weapons, soon we wont even need jets, just have a drone fire a missle that wait's in a area for some 15 mins,then activate's and seeks out shapes of aircrafts,bridges and buildings. Best thing is with infa red and such types, they can even be used in 100% blackout conditions or fog and the such.
Soon our enemy will get a missle up there tail from aparently no where. Another idea is for under water based long range missles, and torps. imagine a radar station or satalite sees a squad of jets flying low and fast twards a fleet,maby they have stealth, and such. now some 50+ miles away "or closer" a missle comes blasting out of the water perprogramed via satalite link to its target, now its got a mind of its own, and is already on the way, even if it fails, theres always more systems waiting.
Why do you think the us stoped makeing b2's and f22's? not because they sucked, but by the time the product came around,other ways of downing even a stealth craft becomes clear, cant see it on radar? use visual range, cant see because of darkness or fog/whatever. use infared, then visual to select a shape of the jet thru the infared screening from range.
in the 60's the us had a missle that could fly at pre programed target areas,and drop ordinance, it was to "early" for its days,but again. with time it will become a very nice tool to have.
Basicly let them pump out as many fighters as they want, we will knock em down just as quick.
-
lol!!!:lol
Fongman's picture is nothing compared to this...
(http://img164.exs.cx/img164/2076/j1039rm.jpg)
(http://img196.exs.cx/img196/8382/j1058lr.jpg)
-
lol USA is doomed as an airpower if Chinese mass produce this Mattel-looking aircraft!
It’s not about WWIII with China (as in 1980s cold war Fulda Gap survival of democracy stuff). That's what the Nukes are for. PRC just has to be able to overwhelm (even in the face of huge losses) the Taiwanese and whatever carrier battle group we may or may not have in the area at the time. Cause enough trouble, quickly enough, to make the invasion a done deal. Or, establish enough local/regional parity to weaken our leverage diplomatically.
We may not even help Taiwan directly in the first place (lot of corporate money at work in that market) - TS Taiwan. And if we do come to its aid, these planes, along with Russian purchased aircraft, will kill more Americans and cause far more trouble than the aging fleet of clear weather Mig-21s and Modified Mig-19s. It is designed to have "4th generation capabilities" and be a match for our force today and for quite some time to come (F-16C-D/F-15C-E/F-18E). There will also be 1,000 produced.
F-22s are nice (what do we have, about a squadron?) hopefully they will have a non-cratered runway to operate from somewhere near Taiwan if needed instead of making 1-2 sorties per day from Japan. Of course, the J-10 was cited by the AF and the Navy as a reason to push JSF and F-22, so maybe we're not all that sad in some circles China has these systems :)
I can’t really blame the Russians for making the sales, or even Europe too much if they go that route, but it’s a ***** to see my tax dollars indirectly at work making PRC stronger.
Charon
-
Politics excluded, is that really the Lavi that was dropped by the Israelis but will now be built for the Chinese?
What the h*ll is the background story there? This is new for me!
-
Badkarma please show me where they've stopped making F/A-22s? Your statement is totally ignorant has absolutely no truth to it. Neither does your statement about 20 year old crappy airframes. The F-15s, F-16s and F-14s aren't going anywhere soon. They will still fill in the gaps with the new airframes coming online and they are far from being useless or uncompetitive.
The systems on these airframes are being upgraded constantly. The F-15C is due to stay in service till around 2025. The F-15Es will be around even longer than that. Same goes for those "crappy" F-16s.
Please get your facts straight before you make statements on a subject that you know little to nothing about.
-
On that first picture there are 2 trays on wheels below the aircraft along the centerline, are those to catch leaking hydraulic fluid or maybe oil? :lol
-
I've seen an F15 with trays under it.
And the F18 is told to be much worse...
Anyway, does anyone have the performance specs for this bird?
-
Originally posted by hogenbor
Politics excluded, is that really the Lavi that was dropped by the Israelis but will now be built for the Chinese?
What the h*ll is the background story there? This is new for me!
It's not like they're trying to hide the fact.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp
-
Originally posted by hogenbor
Politics excluded, is that really the Lavi that was dropped by the Israelis but will now be built for the Chinese?
What the h*ll is the background story there? This is new for me!
Nah, that's just what the jealous China-haters tend to claim :)
It is a Chinese designed fighter, with international technology from several manufacturers - like practically any fighter design of these days.
-
Yo vortex bloke
If u ever got to Duxford museum you will notice most aircraft exhibits have a drip tray or trays under them , that includes the world war one stuff!!!!and no ....they aint all flyers
Moral is .......planes leak :)
-
beisdes the thing dont look like the lavi......yes i grant u same sort of shape...but j10 wings much smaller , j10's intake is not like a lavi ....... this is a bit like concorde and the concordski....
-
Let's see ... They took the nose of a MiG-29, the engine of an Su-27, the tail of an F-16, and the wings of a Mirage and cobbled it all together. It's like Lego! ;)
-
Has some similiarities to the X-31.
-
The Lavi...
lol that's what our F-16 XL should've look like 30 years ago!
-
Nah, that's just what the jealous China-haters tend to claim
It is a Chinese designed fighter, with international technology from several manufacturers - like practically any fighter design of these days.
I may have overstated when I said it was "a Lavi" since it is not a 100 percent copy (it is bigger and was redesigned when mission roles were shifted). But, I think you are understating the degree of core influence the Lavi data and that reverse engineered F-16 supplied by the Pakistan provided. What percentage of the underlying technology was generated in house? About the same as the Chinese PL-9 missile? It’s not identical to the Python 3 either, different control surfaces even…but it's still an AIM-9L+ capability missile.
The J-10 certainly seems to be a significant technological departure from preceding "indigenous" aircraft like the J-8, which showcase 1970 Soviet era technology. From SU-15 era to F-16 era, I’m sure with only the slightest influence from Lavi research and a reverse engineered F-16. Then there is the contemporary J-11, which is just a licensed-produced SU-27, showing no real indigenous effort.
Of course, the real victims of the J-10 may be Dassault and Saab and the Eurofighter consortium (F-16/18 exports too) since the J-10 is seen as being a major export item. Pakistan has shown an interest in replacing its F-16As with the J-10. Enough of the capability -- half the price!
It would be a lot easier to dismiss if we actually had an armada of our next generation super planes. But we don't, and won't have for quite some time. And if a conflict occurs we won't be fighting in a controlled and advantageous environment like we had with Gulf War 1 or 2, where we were on the offensive from secured bases fairly close to the action against a military at least a generation behind (technologically) where China is heading. The don't have to be able to beat us in some "Red Dawn" scenario, they just have to be capable enough to control the region for a limited period of time.
Charon
-
"The J-10 is based on the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI)’s Lavi fighter. After the Lavi programme was cancelled in 1987, its design was taken over by CAC, and IAI carried on with the development of avionic equipment."
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp
-
J-10 vs Lavi (visuals)
J-10
(http://img164.exs.cx/img164/2076/j1039rm.jpg)
(http://img196.exs.cx/img196/8382/j1058lr.jpg)
Lavi (Cancelled)
(http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/lavi4.jpg)
(http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/lavi_c.jpg)
-
Right now the USAF has over 25 unmanned aerial vehicle designs being worked on. Don't think we have to worry about this Chinese delta-winged F-16 knockoff.
-
geeez guys, you guys always under estimate the Chinese. don't you all know that within 20 years (if "trends" continue) China will have the biggest economy, biggest expendable armed forces, and a bigger threat to the West if we keep pissing them off...
-
OMG, how do you dare comparing this atrocity to the lavi.
the lavi is one the most gorgeous looking planes EVA!!
(http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16101.jpg)
(http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/1/16091.jpg)
and it was operational toady if you damn yanks werent so affreid of alittle competition.
-
2 missles?? WEAKSAUCE!
-
Charon,
Have you ever seen what Egypt and the Saudi's are flying?
-
Charon,
Have you ever seen what Egypt and the Saudi's are flying?
Egypt and Israel seem to get along pretty well, have since the Camp David Accords, and we still balk on sending them F-15s and JDAMS because it's politically unpopular. If they were still seen as a notable (real) threat to Israel they wouldn't have the F-16s either. The Saudi's are less friendly but far too tied to pumping the world's oil to consider doing much about it (unless the radicals take over). Neither country is close to a Syria, and of course there are no Syrian F-15s or F-16s.
Now, we do a lot of business with China, but that didn't stop China from playing blink with our recon aircraft (remember that collision incident before 9/11 came along to make it an afterthought?). Nor does it stop them from outright threatening war with Taiwan, which we have in the past committed to protect. China is considered a potential war threat, is used to promote our latest weapons systems, and has been building a military force specifically to counter our force projection capabilities. Kind of a cold war with benefits, that may got hot a lot easier than the MAD cold war with the Soviets.
Charon
-
I would think the SU30s would be a way bigger issue.
-
Originally posted by 33Vortex
On that first picture there are 2 trays on wheels below the aircraft along the centerline, are those to catch leaking hydraulic fluid or maybe oil? :lol
Well, our fighters have them too. :) take a tour on a carrier with it's airwing onboard. All the planes in the hanger bay have them under them at leak points to try and keep the deck from getting too slippery. Even with the non-skid, JP5 and hydraulic fluid are slippery.
-
Originally posted by Pongo
I would think the SU30s would be a way bigger issue.
Nah, The Russians are OK with that. Kinda like us Americans and French giving F-15s and Mirages to Israelis (with indegenuous upgrades)
-
I would think the SU30s would be a way bigger issue.
They are likely, along with the Kilos. But 1,000 J-10s is nothing to sneeze at. Any aerospace manufacturer has to have exports to keep costs down for domestic sales and support the industry. I understand that. I just hate to see my tax dollars at work improving the capabilities of a potential hot threat. Of course, our military aid to Israel is largely corporate welfare for US arms manufacturers, and there have been US corporations that have directly helped the China increase its capabilities during the same time frame. That pisses me off too.
And, another cold war would be just what the Dr. ordered to push all those cold war systems and star wars stuff that are slipping by the wayside in the new threat environment. An urban war on terror is low tech and people intensive -- where's the BIG industrial money in that? We stopped the sale of the AWACS technology, but maybe some increase in Chinese capabilities is not seen as all that bad a thing :)
Charon
-
Charon,
The opposite is true of Egypt and Syria.
Syria is a run down country with a conscript army and no matter if we gave them F-22's they would not threaten Israel becuase the March to Domascus would take about 1 1/2 hours. The greatest threat to the Israeli's in the North is Iran Via the Hizbulla. The same guys who killed 200 US Marines in Beruit.
Egypt however still has a very modern Army with Mubarik as Ruler who was himself a fighter pilot during the Yom Kippor war. They do not rattle the saber as you are used to hearing from many of his middle eastern neighbors but they do other things like fly overs into Israeli Air Space with Civilian Airliners to test reactions etc. There is even tourism between the two countries but never is there any doubt as to the real threats to Israel. They have already had three wars with Egypt in the last 50 years.
1. Iran
2. Egypt<== Also has M1A2 Abrams Tanks.
You are concerned about a war to save Taiwan. The Israeli's are worried about a war to save their own country.
FYI, the Lavi is 80's technology. I thought the US paid Israel not to produce and resell it in the first place?
A very similar thing is happening now with the Tank program is Israel The US is trying to sell them Abrams instead of the home built Merkava IV. I believe they stuck with the home grown version this time since the Egyptions have the Abrams already.
-
The relations are cool, largely related to Palestinian issues, but fairly warm even compared to Egypt’s relations with other Arab states. As you point out There is a fair amount of travel and tourism (Israel is the No. 1 destination for reasons other than work and pilgrimage); there is a lot of joint business going on; Israel just signed a 2.5 billion deal to import natural gas from Egypt and inked a tri-party trade deal allowing Egypt to export duty-free goods to America as long as they contain 12 percent Israeli-made components. From a military standpoint, there hasn’t been a hot conflict since 1973, the accords were signed with US military sales as part of the deal (as I recall), and… Israel has over 200 nuclear weapons that would vaporize any number of M1As or F-16s should a serious threat develop to Israeli survival. Taiwan (Likely) has no nuclear defense option itself, and it is unlikely that a hot war over Taiwan would escalate to Nuclear war between the US and China (not worth it either way) so nukes become a non issues in that potential conflict.
I mean, really, the survival of Israel from external “traditional” threats is hardly in question, since the more moderate nations don’t want to be vaporized and even countries like Iran, having a bad day with extremists in control, would have to think long and hard before doing anything that would constitute a serious threat to Israel’s survival.
FYI, the Lavi is 80's technology. I thought the US paid Israel not to produce and resell it in the first place?
Our primary combat aircraft in use today and carrying most of the burden for some time to come are also 80s technology from an aerodynamics standpoint. The Lavi data provided a framework to improve aerodynamics, fly by wire etc from the 1960s and 1970s to a modern level, and Israeli companies have been competing against the Russians to provide more sophisticated 90s era Avionics and weapons systems (Apparently the Russians won that bid). The J-10 is seen as being comparable to somewhere around F-16C standards or better (though that remains to be seen). The Python 3 and 4 missile technology and the latest Russian missile technologies make it a notable threat, at least according to the AF and Navy. I would be more irritated at the Russians, but then there has never been a special relationship there and they are just filling an export need. As to the US paying not to produce and export, we also paid for a good share of the development. Indirectly the same with the Python 3 system. So, if somebody is going to make money on these systems with core US technology, even if it is against our best interests, it might as well be the US.
A very similar thing is happening now with the Tank program is Israel The US is trying to sell them Abrams instead of the home built Merkava IV. I believe they stuck with the home grown version this time since the Egyptions have the Abrams already.
All Israel has to do is stop taking the money. We’re not giving it out so that Israel can buy stuff elsewhere -- it’s a corporate subsidy. Frankly, I believe it would be in the long-term best interests of both the Israelis and the US arms manufacturers to end the relationship. The Israelis would be masters of their destiny, free of any US interference, and the US arms manufacturers would have to concentrate on a broader marketing strategy based on performance and competitive costs and export competition. Where’s the next export plane from the US for the masses? The US Gripen? How many nations can (if allowed) buy a fleet of JSF? {edit: if cost projections stay on target, maybe a few...] Not much real economy of scale in those programs outside of US orders though. It’s hard to turn back the plethora of mergers and lack of FTC oversight that have created a non-competitive internal aerospace/military systems market, but maybe more natural competition would be a start.
Charon
-
(quote)
Let's see ... They took the nose of a MiG-29, the engine of an Su-27, the tail of an F-16, and the wings of a Mirage and cobbled it all together. It's like Lego!
(unquote)
Exactly what I was thinking, GScholz. Something like the most successful vehicles in any category tending to evolve into similar designs, but rarely with such distinctive components.
-
It is a Chinese designed fighter, with international technology from several manufacturers - like practically any fighter design of these days. [/B][/QUOTE]
What "international technology" was used in the manufacture of the F14, F15, F16, F18, F22, JSF, A4, A5, A6, A7, A10, ect? Please inform us all what technology was bought or stolen to develop those aircraft.
For the past 50 years the US has had some of the most brilliant aircraft designers on the planet... we have had no need to use other countries designs or technology.
-
and it was operational toady if you damn yanks werent so affreid of alittle competition. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats pretty funny, lets see...... if we didnt GIVE you F16's, F15's, F4's, A4's, M48, M60, M113, GE engines, Honeywell, Litton, Hughes, and a miriad of other computerized, minitureized, highly capable weapons and sensor technology, Israel would be practicing the muslim religion.
It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?
I am 1 american that supports stopping all arms/tech shipments to Israel. They sure dont act like an ally and cause way more trouble than they are worth.
-
It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?
That was actually Toshiba in Japan, and it was precise milling machines sold through the Norwegian Kongsberg firm. To this day I refuse to buy Toshiba, even when they are the best product for what I am looking for. That bastard Walker, who should have been smoked over a decade ago, let them know exactly how far behind they were at the time.
Charon
-
Originally posted by Joker312
Thats pretty funny, lets see...... if we didnt GIVE you F16's, F15's, F4's, A4's, M48, M60, M113, GE engines, Honeywell, Litton, Hughes, and a miriad of other computerized, minitureized, highly capable weapons and sensor technology, Israel would be practicing the muslim religion.
It galls me that we give away our tech to allow Israel to survive and they turn around and sell it to our enemies. Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?
I am 1 american that supports stopping all arms/tech shipments to Israel. They sure dont act like an ally and cause way more trouble than they are worth. [/B]
some guys just cant take a joke :)
and besides most of the avionics in our planes is israely developed, so deflate your ego abit.
-
Joker, jet engines, radar, and swept wings comes to mind. Every AC manufacturer in the world uses whatever technology they can get their hands on. Borrow, steal, kill.
(http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/f-15-lfax.gif)
LFAX-4—a variable-sweep configuration
LFAX-8— a fixed-sweep version of LFAX-4
LFAX-9—wing-mounted twin-engine configuration
LFAX-10—similar in external shape to Soviet MiG-25 Foxbat
-
GSholtz,
Thats why I wrote last 50 years. I am well aware of the tech that we aquired from the germans after our victory in WW2. In the years following that war US designers pretty much made most of the areodynamic breakthroughs with few exceptions. VSTOL technology is one that comes to mind.
The bottom line is I dont think the LAVI is any thing other than a redesigned F16. IMO, Israel dont have the right to transfer that to China.
Flyboy, I can take a joke, sorry if I missed your pun. And my ego is not inflated. I am just lucky enough to live in the greatest country in the world at this time.
-
I think you will find that most people in the civilized world think they live in the greatest country in the world ... regardless of nationality.
-
Joker,
If it were not for Einstein and Oppenheimer we night be marching to some funny music ourselves so I would n't puff yourself up to much.
Also Israel does develope all of it's own Avionics. We sell them the shell of the aircraft. They don't even use our seats. Their's allows the pilot to pull more G's. Check the results of the Red Flag exercises with the IDF.
BTW they also developed the Arrow Anti-ballistic missle system. We cannot because of the last Nuke treaty we signed saying that we will not develope such a system. The Israeli's have not signed this treaty and can develope these systems and then they are tested in California. And guess what, it works.
Our great technical prowess still can't get the Patriot working properly.
FYI, If the US had listened to Israel in 1981 we wouldn't be fighting a war there today.
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Joker,
If it were not for Einstein and Oppenheimer we night be marching to some funny music ourselves so I would n't puff yourself up to much.
Also Israel does develope all of it's own Avionics. We sell them the shell of the aircraft. They don't even use our seats. Their's allows the pilot to pull more G's. Check the results of the Red Flag exercises with the IDF.
BTW they also developed the Arrow Anti-ballistic missle system. We cannot because of the last Nuke treaty we signed saying that we will not develope such a system. The Israeli's have not signed this treaty and can develope these systems and then they are tested in California. And guess what, it works.
Our great technical prowess still can't get the Patriot working properly.
FYI, If the US had listened to Israel in 1981 we wouldn't be fighting a war there today.
Dont really know where your going with that F4 but I believe Einstein and Oppenheimer were both working under the direction of the US government and were here because some megalomaniac would have killed them if given the chance.
As far as I know all modern fighter aircraft are pretty much limited to the +9 G area due to HUMAN limitation not ejection seat capabilities. Besides lets see how good they do without that airframe. As far as the avionics packages go, US equipment is by far the world leader. End of story.
We had ABM systems way before they ever did and as you state, due to treaty limitations did not pusue them.
And boy are you wrong about the Patriot. That system was rushed into battle before it was fully certified. When the software was perfected and the operators got up to speed, they performed magnificently. There are reports of SCUDS breaking up upon reentry and Patriot missles being able to target the warhead among much debris and destroying it. Look it up, its on the net. And heres another good story.... In the IAF fighter pilots were the most highly regarded military personel. Now its the IAF Patriot battery operators. Ask an Israeli.
As far as listening to them in '81. Politics is not my forte. Weapon systems are.
I am enjoying this:)
-
Originally posted by GScholz
I think you will find that most people in the civilized world think they live in the greatest country in the world ... regardless of nationality.
Last reply for tonight:)
I can understand that GS, but I can back up my claim with facts. Those other people cant. Let me explain.....
For comparison we shall use Germany as an example.
1) The US is #1 in world GDP, Germany is #5 (US is almost 5x better than Germany)
2) Unemployment rate for the US is 6%, Germany is 10.5%
3)Per Capita GDP: US is #2 behind little Luxemburg. Germany is #6. (US is approx 35% better at $37,800.00 vs $27,600.00)
4)Electricity production: US #1, Germany #7 (US produces more than 7x more)
5) Airports with paved runways: US #1, Germany #7 (US has 15X more at over 5100 to Germanys 366)
6) Military Expendetures: US #1 Germany #6 ( US at 10x more than Germany)
7) Railways: US #1 Germany #6 (US with 5x more)
Now you might say that Germany is much smaller than the USA but these are world rankings... The US leads much larger countries in size and population. All these facts are easily verified on the web.
So while others my feel their homeland if the best place to live in the world the facts just dont support their claims.
I do understand that there are many beautiful, prosperous places to live on this planet and I dont wish to say that Germany is not a nice place to live, nor is Norway or Sweden or England, ect, ect but the USA is the world leader in so many categories that I find myself fully justified in my beliefs.
-
1) The US is #1 in world GDP, Germany is #5 (US is almost 5x better than Germany)
- This point does not say much at all, since it does not factor in population.
2) Unemployment rate for the US is 6%, Germany is 10.5%
Norway 3.5%
3)Per Capita GDP: US is #2 behind little Luxemburg. Germany is #6. (US is approx 35% better at $37,800.00 vs $27,600.00)
- 2004 figures:
USA $40.100
Norway $40.000
4)Electricity production: US #1, Germany #7 (US produces more than 7x more)
- Another non-issue. Obviously a smaller population will require less electricity. Has nothing to do with living standard or "greatness".
5) Airports with paved runways: US #1, Germany #7 (US has 15X more at over 5100 to Germanys 366)
- Another non-issue.
6) Military Expendetures: US #1 Germany #6 ( US at 10x more than Germany)
Must also be seen in relation to population. I believe Israel tops that one.
7) Railways: US #1 Germany #6 (US with 5x more)
- Another non-issue.
Now you might say that Germany is much smaller than the USA but these are world rankings... The US leads much larger countries in size and population. All these facts are easily verified on the web.
- Yes they are :)
So while others my feel their homeland if the best place to live in the world the facts just dont support their claims.
- Well, mine do and you can add free healthcare, pension, social security etc. :)
I do understand that there are many beautiful, prosperous places to live on this planet and I dont wish to say that Germany is not a nice place to live, nor is Norway or Sweden or England, ect, ect but the USA is the world leader in so many categories that I find myself fully justified in my beliefs.
- I know the USA can be a good place to live, perhaps even best if you're very fortunate. However it can also be one of the worst places to live if you're unfortunate. I guess that's why the USA never scores high on the UN Human Development Index.
- Anyways ... isn't this an O' Club topic? ;)
-
GS your numbers are just alittle off my friend. Norways unemployment rate is 4.7% unadjusted.
As for the US getting a low ranking on the UN Human Development Index, I hardly think 8th out of 177 is low. The US is in the TOP 5% ahead of ALL other MAJOR world powers such as Japan, Germany, England, China, Russia, France, Italy,and Spain.
Also, to say that most of my previous examples are "not a factor"or a "non-issue" is just not true. All of those examples are revelant to a countries mobility, productivity, industrialization, manufacturing capacity, and overall well being of its population.
And the US also has welfare programs that provide healthcare for those that cant afford it, a social security program that has been in effect for almost 80 years, ect. Its just that in the US, thats not the only option. Here if you work hard and save you have the oppoutunity to provide yourself a much better retirement than any social program can provide worldwide.
But we digress. My point is made and the fact remains that Isreal did not design that aircraft and has no right to sell or transfer that technology to China. The EU also has a claim IMO. If you look real close at those pic's of the J10, you will notice that the nose/radome/cockpit/tail/afterburner are all copies of the F16 without any modifcation. The fuselage/wing/intake all bear a remarkable resemblence to the EuroFighter. It really dosent look like anything on the aircraft has not been copied from another design. What this shows more importantly is the total lack of originanality that has been a trademark of Chinese aircraft design for the past century. I dont care how many they make, their pilots are still going to be just targets to any competent adversary.
I guess you are correct about one thing, this is probably the wrong forum for a discussion on the relative merits of ones homeland.
I respect your opnions and have enjoyed our exchange of ideas.
-
Joker
Keep living with them blinders
Figures dont prove a thing , besides im sure u missed the bad ones so as to prove yr point ....
Every country has it's good points and it's bad one's
-
What's that US vs Germany/Norway stat game?
Ok, US is no.1 in the pollution scale, no. 1 of all western countries in executions, and of all western nations has the highest amounts of inhabitants in jail :D
And the fattest ones too :D
-
bob149 and Angus,
So far GS and I were having an intellegent exchange of ideas without throwing trash at one another. You are correct that the US has many areas that have a need of vast improvement. Angus, I would have chosen the example of US Foreign Aid, which is heavily weighted in favor of arms instead of humanitarian aid instead. Numbers for executions are published for those that are KNOWN. I am sure that many nations are not as upfront about it as is the US. The genocide going on in some African countries costs 100's of thousands of lives annually but are not included in the statistics. Prision populations is likewise suspect due to non-reporting in many countries. And to pick on overweight persons is well.......immature.
Bob149..... I donot have blinders on. Accurate facts and figures give a picture of the level of development of a nation. To make my point I did select random items that support my claim. To make your statement to disregard my evidence without any supporting evidence of your own is not a valid argument. Its just a lazy attempt to be disruptive and argumentative.
And I have already said that most of the civilized nations have good and bad, although that should be understood without explanation.
Now fellas, replys like that only reinforce my belief that the US is indeed the best place on the planet to live. And as we all know, everyone is welcome to have an opinion, unless ofcourse you are a women in Oman.
-
^
l
l
l
L ___>what a JOKER :D
-
Peolple dont have to worry about the chance to end up homeless.
and the coffeeshops are legal.
so u dont have to worry about endup in a jail with 10 other guys.
i bet i feel more free here than in the USA
-
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Peolple dont have to worry about the chance to end up homeless.
and the coffeeshops are legal.
so u dont have to worry about endup in a jail with 10 other guys.
i bet i feel more free here than in the USA
Lets see, Bug thinks there arent any needy people nor any prisoners in the Netherlands.......
And he has "coffeeshops" to pass the day away.....
This equates to "more freedom".
Smoke another bong, pop another pill, maybe mainline some H....
then take a nap and return when you have something better to add.
If your gonna step up to the posting plate please bring a bat.
(the use of baseball terms that the less fortunate cannot comprehend was intentional)
-
Joker,
The last I heard the Patriot Missle System was being investigated for shooting down a British Tornado and a Navy F-18. Neither one of those birds is very stealthy on Radar and frankly in the scheme of radar signatures I don't think mistaking a warhead in the atmosphere re-entry and a fighter aircraft is acceptable. In fact I would from what I have heard and read I chalk it up to a classic military contrator "Fix it in the field" or "good enough for government work" type system. Not to far from the original M-16 Jams, Bradley Fighting Vehicle burning poisonous fumes etc.
As far as Israeli's and their weapons systems, you have to understand in 1972 the European nations under pressure from OPEC completely turned there backs on Israel (Especially the French) despite the fact that they were at that time Israel's #1 supplier of Arms (Centurian Tanks, Mirage Fighters Etc). They not only cut off 100% of arms they would not supply any aid or let the US use it's bases or airspace to supply them even when it looked as if they might be over run. French PM Charles DeGaulle (sp) told the Israeli PM "Nations have no Allies, Only interest".
Based on that history and the fact that the US is only one election away from a President Pat Buchanon or Ralph Nadar the Israeli's do what they have to do, they hedge their bet.
Don't think that could happen here? So did a lot of people in 1930 in Europe.
This is of course my opinion only. Kind of like being a 150LBS white guy in the State Pen. You look for the big guy who wants to f-u the least to be your friend.
-
F4UDOA, the shootdown of those aircraft was not a fault of the Patriot missle system as I remember it. I believe one of those was a due to the transponder being damaged or not turned on. The system was on auto and engaged. It performed as advertised and killed the unidentifed jet. Think that was the Tornado. The other was the battery operators fault. Fratricide will always be a danger on the battlefield. I would have to check the specifics of those to be sure though.
I can understand the political tightrope that the Isreali's have to walk inorder to protect themselves while surrounded by enemies. I do not have to like it when they bite the hand, that has in the past and will continue for the foreseeable future, enable them to remain soverign.
We armed them when all others wouldnt, we brokered peace agreements for them to relieve some pressure, and we have stood by them when the entire world turned its back. Selling anything that we transfered to them, to an enemy of the US is a slap in the face.
-
Originally posted by Joker312
Remember when Israel sold the russians the computer tech to enable them to make quiet screws for nuc subs?
This is patently untrue. Pull down your skirt, your anti Semitism is showing. :rolleyes:
Woof
-
Originally posted by Joker312
Smoke another bong, pop another pill, maybe mainline some H.
LOL
I'm sure you aware that The Netherlands has drastically lower levels of drug abuse, especially conserning Heroin and likes?
Don't make a fool out of yourself.
-
From Joker 312:
"So far GS and I were having an intellegent exchange of ideas without throwing trash at one another. You are correct that the US has many areas that have a need of vast improvement. Angus, I would have chosen the example of US Foreign Aid, which is heavily weighted in favor of arms instead of humanitarian aid instead. Numbers for executions are published for those that are KNOWN. I am sure that many nations are not as upfront about it as is the US. The genocide going on in some African countries costs 100's of thousands of lives annually but are not included in the statistics. Prision populations is likewise suspect due to non-reporting in many countries. And to pick on overweight persons is well.......immature. "
Hope I am not intruding then, - the whole affair seemed to be getting into silly directions anyway, so I was temped, and put some oil on the fire ;)
Anyway, my comparison was of the western world only, - Europe and the USA. Not Africa. And the statistics in W-Europe and the USA are quite open.
And BTW, the Genocide in some African states count MILLIONS.
And the overweight, - hehe, couldn't resist :D
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
As far as Israeli's and their weapons systems, you have to understand in 1972 the European nations under pressure from OPEC completely turned there backs on Israel (Especially the French) despite the fact that they were at that time Israel's #1 supplier of Arms (Centurian Tanks, Mirage Fighters Etc). They not only cut off 100% of arms they would not supply any aid or let the US use it's bases or airspace to supply them even when it looked as if they might be over run. French PM Charles DeGaulle (sp) told the Israeli PM "Nations have no Allies, Only interest".
There is some errors in your post :
Centurian where not french but british
de Gaulle was not PM but president.
Lastly the original citation is from Palemertson not de Gaulle.
-
KaBAM!!!
-
Originally posted by SkyWolf
This is patently untrue. Pull down your skirt, your anti Semitism is showing. :rolleyes:
Woof
Oh my..now the anti semitism card is in play....
Well we have had enough of our fun. An insecure jew has reared his ugly head.
You have no right to accuse me of anti anything. I have already been corrected on that sub thing. I was mistaken.
But why tell me to pull down my skirt? I am neither a woman or a Scot. You wouldnt be queer would you?
Or maybe you have some phobia we are unaware of.
Why is it when anyone questions the motives of Isreal its anti-semitism?
I would love to meet you someday Wolf, you would see how wrong you are. In person you would see I treat everyone with the respect they deserve.
-
Originally posted by straffo
There is some errors in your post :
Centurian where not french but british
de Gaulle was not PM but president.
Lastly the original citation is from Palemertson not de Gaulle.
Staffo.... the Centurian tank was a British design. Unless your talking about the Centurian of biblical times... that was Roman.
I didnt read the post correctly Staffo, my apologies. You were correct:)
-
Originally posted by mora
LOL
I'm sure you aware that The Netherlands has drastically lower levels of drug abuse, especially conserning Heroin and likes?
Don't make a fool out of yourself.
Mora, abuse in a country where its legal is hard to determine. Who keeps records on missed work, accidents, health costs related to long term recreational use of those drugs, ect? It seems the only fool here is the one without an open mind who can not see there are hidden costs to even legal use of drugs.
And BTW I totally agree with that policy. If people want to kill themselves with drugs, it shouldnt be against the law. Alcohol and nicotine cost governments much more in long term health costs.
So did you take the handle Mora as short for Moron?
-
Angus,
I was just trying to have a exchange with GS. I welcome any comments that are meant to enlighten the parties involved. You are more than welcome to participate in this forum.
Now thats its totally degenerated to a flame fest I am going to call it quits on this topic.
I still maintain that the US is hands down the best place to live on earth and the Isreali's are wrong to sell arms to China.
Have fun all.
-
Originally posted by Joker312
An insecure jew has reared his ugly head.
What makes you think that I'm Jewish?
You have no right to accuse me of anti anything. I have already been corrected on that sub thing. I was mistaken.
Yes but you certainly wanted to believe it didn't you? You sure spat it out with a certain unsettling amount of venom.
But why tell me to pull down my skirt? I am neither a woman or a Scot. You wouldnt be queer would you?
No.. but I am a Scott.
Why is it when anyone questions the motives of Isreal its anti-semitism?
Because it usually comes from an anti-Semite.
I would love to meet you someday
Look who's queer now.
Wolf, you would see how wrong you are. In person you would see I treat everyone with the respect they deserve.
Well... amazingly enough I have no desire to meet you. I don't as a rule surround myself with close minded bigots...no matter how much they claim to be just the opposite. :D
Woof
-
Originally posted by Joker312
I still maintain that the US is hands down the best place to live on earth
So do I... I just find it unfortunate that the USA is represented by so many people like you. It makes the rest of the world believe the worst of all of us. :rolleyes:
Woof
-
Joker, it wasn't Israel. It was Norway's Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk and Japan's Toshiba that sold the Soviets propeller and computer tech to quiet their subs. Of course, this was not legal sales and people had to stand trial for espionage.
-
Hmmm, Joker:
I still maintain that the US is hands down the best place to live on earth."
There are many good places. Norway for instance. And little Iceland, where I live is very good. Unemployment, - what's that? Crime rate, what's that? Well, I don't even lock the house or bother to take the car keys out! (Think they're probably stuck in the switch by now).
Have you travelled or lived outside the US? For it's a big assumption that it's the best place.
I for myself have not been to the US, but all over Europe, - and belive me, in Europe there are many very good places.
One of my neighbours was from the US. Left the country, - said it sucked. I was trying to debate with him about that actually, for the US is a big place, and has lots of variety.
So, does it boil down to "What place in the US do you refer to"??
Guess so ;)
-
Originally posted by Joker312
Mora, abuse in a country where its legal is hard to determine. Who keeps records on missed work, accidents, health costs related to long term recreational use of those drugs, ect? It seems the only fool here is the one without an open mind who can not see there are hidden costs to even legal use of drugs.
Drug use is more documented and researched in the Netherlands than anywhere else in the world. Of course they have their problems too, but the levels of drug abuse are lower, and the problems even more so because of the harm reduction policy.
Anyway there's no ideal solution to the drug problem, but the Dutch are doing pretty well when compared to other western countries. Anyway, this isn't the subject here anyway. Your needless personal attack against Bug was what brought this up.
-
And heres another good story.... In the IAF fighter pilots were the most highly regarded military personel. Now its the IAF Patriot battery operators. Ask an Israeli.
you are wrong, very wrong.
and as for the lavi coppied form the F16.
it may share a few exterior traits with the F16. but show me 1 plane from the 80'-90' that doesnt have a similarity to some other plane.
but if you look inside... a whole different story.
all its avionics are israely designed, more then 6000 technicians and engineers where working on the project, maybe not much in US standarts, but in israel its a unprecedented number.
infact alot attribute the hitech boom that israel had in the 90's to the fact that those people where released to the private sector, after the project was canceled.
so no, its not US tech that we sold to the chinese, it was ours.
-
Mora, abuse in a country where its legal is hard to determine. Who keeps records on missed work, accidents, health costs related to long term recreational use of those drugs, ect? It seems the only fool here is the one without an open mind who can not see there are hidden costs to even legal use of drugs.
lol
illigal use is easier to determine huh ??
missed work -none
accident- non i even examined on 1 joint
health cost- hmm i got maybe the flu 1 time a year thats it
i use since my 15th i don't reccomend
but i dont reccomend cigarettes and alcohol either.
drugs uhmmm.... how a bout take a look at alcohol.
yes where open minded relativate things and stuff
-
Bear in mind that the Israeli population today is about the same as killed jews during ww2.
Also bear in mind that that number is but a quarter or less of the population of New York and surrondings.
Always good to keep the bearings and the perspective right, Ay ;)
-
Wolf I believe your a liar. If you are a Scot you wouldnot have spelled it Scott. You step up and start trash talking with nothing to add to the conversation.
Pathetic. Why are you ashamed to be known as Jewish? You jump in to call me a bigot and then you lie.
Your not worth the time.
-
Originally posted by Flyboy
you are wrong, very wrong.
and as for the lavi coppied form the F16.
it may share a few exterior traits with the F16. but show me 1 plane from the 80'-90' that doesnt have a similarity to some other plane.
but if you look inside... a whole different story.
all its avionics are israely designed, more then 6000 technicians and engineers where working on the project, maybe not much in US standarts, but in israel its a unprecedented number.
infact alot attribute the hitech boom that israel had in the 90's to the fact that those people where released to the private sector, after the project was canceled.
so no, its not US tech that we sold to the chinese, it was ours.
I did some research on the Patriot System and it seems I am wrong. The latest story out is the Army exaggerated their clams and the sucess rate was closer to 50%.
If what your saying is true FB then I dont have a problem at all.
Thanks for the info.
-
Even 50% is an exaggeration, and this has been known since 1991.
-
Anyway there's no ideal solution to the drug problem, but the Dutch are doing pretty well when compared to other western countries. Anyway, this isn't the subject here anyway. Your needless personal attack against Bug was what brought this up. [/B][/QUOTE]
I have read some about the drug laws there. I am sure its as you say and works quite well. But why have a "harm reduction policy"
if there is no harm, being done.
And I was wrong to lash out at Bug, I just dont like being called a "fool" and a "bigot" for having ideas and beliefs different than someone else.
Whats funny is that because I made a comment I have learned things about other countries, peoples, and such that I wouldnt have if I didnt post my feelings. Not totally a bad thing if you know what I mean.
Take care.
-
Originally posted by Joker312
Wolf I believe your a liar. If you are a Scot you wouldnot have spelled it Scott.
Well... my mother was half Scottish. Her maiden name and my middle name are the same. McCollum. You figure it out. And it's you're.
You step up and start trash talking with nothing to add to the conversation.
Just want people to know that not everyone in the USA is like you.
Pathetic. Why are you ashamed to be known as Jewish? You jump in to call me a bigot and then you lie.
I'm not Jewish you freakin' idiot.
Your not worth the time.
It's "you're". A contraction... made from the words "you" and "are". As in you're ignorant. :D
Woof
-
Ouy Vey!!
What the hell happened to this thread?
FYI, I am Jewish:aok
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Ouy Vey!!
What the hell happened to this thread?
FYI, I am Jewish:aok
Some guy tried to muck it up but inspite of him some useful information was exchanged:)
-
So, that being off, does somebody have tec details about that J-10 Fighter?
Speed? Range? Ordnance, etc???
-
Originally posted by Angus
So, that being off, does somebody have tec details about that J-10 Fighter?
Speed? Range? Ordnance, etc???
This is the general info as found on the net. Seems abouut the same as all the other 3rd or 4th gen fighters . I saw an interesting blurb about a vectored thrust engine being installed but that was probably just conjecture on thr writers part.
After looking at some other pics, I cant help thinking it really is a neat looking aircraft.
Specification: n/a
Year deployed
Wing span, 8.78 m
Lenght, 14.57 m
Height, 4.78 m
Wings area, 33.05 m2
Weight, kg
- empty aircraft 9800
- normal take-off 18000
Fuel, l
- Internal 2625
- AFT 4165
Engine 1 TSEA AL-31F
Thrust, kgs
- normal 7600
- afterburner 12500
Maximum speed, km/h M 2.0
Cruising speed, km/h 1110
Range, km 2000
Service ceiling, m 18000
Maximum overload 9
Crew 1
Armament: -
1 30-mm cannon.
Warload -7260 kg in 11 hardpoints.
7 AAM PL-7, PL-10, PL-11, P-27 and R-73,
ASM, UR, free fall bombs