Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on May 05, 2005, 11:47:50 PM
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OK heres one for you:
Assuming there is a god, a christian one at that, should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this? Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
I'm interested to hear the christian view on this.
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Wait please ... I have plenty of popcorn but I need to make a quick beer run. :aok
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres one for you:
Assuming there is a god, a christian one at that, should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this? Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
I'm interested to hear the christian view on this.
God doesn't have to "live" by the ten commandments. The commandments were God's law for Isreal to live by in the Old testimate.
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Originally posted by NUKE
God doesn't have to "live" by the ten commandments. The commandments were God's law for Isreal to live by in the Old testimate.
Oh, so God is a hypocrit? A "Do what I say, not what I do" kind of deity?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Oh, so God is a hypocrit? A "Do what I say, not what I do" kind of deity?
ack-ack
I don't think so, but how could I possibly know? Think about this though: If you do not accept Jesus as your savour, God will put you in hell. Hell is the true death. So in a sense, God will kill you if you reject him.
Every human has free will on earth, so it's up to each person to decide if they want to die.
I do know that the ten commandments were instructions by God, given to Moses, for the way the Israelites should live.
After Jesus, the Old testimate laws are no longer applicable. I'm no bible scholar like Seagoon though.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Oh, so God is a hypocrit? A "Do what I say, not what I do" kind of deity?
ack-ack
Yep:)
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Originally posted by NUKE
I don't think so, but how could I possibly know? Think about this though: If you do not accept Jesus as your savour, God will put you in hell. Hell is the true death. So in a sense, God will kill you if you reject him.
Every human has free will on earth, so it's up to each person to decide if they want to die.
I do know that the ten commandments were instructions by God, given to Moses, for the way the Israelites should live.
After Jesus, the Old testimate laws are no longer applicable. I'm no bible scholar like Seagoon though.
So the whole 10 commandments thing is phooey? We can sodomize, steal, and murder as much as we like and still go too heaven just as long as we accept Jesus?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
So the whole 10 commandments thing is phooey? We can sodomize, steal, and murder as much as we like and still go too heaven just as long as we accept Jesus?
The 10 commandments were for Isreal, the old law.
God sent Jesus to die for our sins and abolished the old law. You can go to heaven if you accept Jesus as your savior. Jesus died for the sins of man, and we are forgiven if we accept Jesus. All of us sin, yet Jesus will forgive us. And no sin is any worse or less in God's eyes.
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Originally posted by MrBill
Wait please ... I have plenty of popcorn but I need to make a quick beer run. :aok
While you are out, can you grab me some Guinness?
should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this?
The Law that God gave mankind through Moses, had consequences for sin. Sodom, Gomorrah, and those punished through the flood were not innocent victims.
Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
Huh?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres one for you:
Assuming there is a god, a christian one at that, should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this? Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
I'm interested to hear the christian view on this.
Try better bait next time.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Vulcan
So the whole 10 commandments thing is phooey? We can sodomize, steal, and murder as much as we like and still go too heaven just as long as we accept Jesus?
While Christ did pay for mankind's sin, why would you thank Him by willfully violating God's Law and willingly living a life of sin???
"28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3)
God pleasing action is the fruit of Faith.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I don't think so, but how could I possibly know? Think about this though: If you do not accept Jesus as your savour, God will put you in hell. Hell is the true death. So in a sense, God will kill you if you reject him.
Every human has free will on earth, so it's up to each person to decide if they want to die.
I do know that the ten commandments were instructions by God, given to Moses, for the way the Israelites should live.
After Jesus, the Old testimate laws are no longer applicable. I'm no bible scholar like Seagoon though.
I'm no bible scholar, but I have read the bible, and I recall a little story called "the good Sameritan" and in this story Jesus illustrates that a good Christian is what a good Christian does, or is defined by action. What I don't recall is the part where the Sumeritan burns in hell for not accepting some doctrine that was not part of his religion. If my car breaks down, it is no longer a car. If I fix it, it becomes a car again, as it funtions as one. I beleive that their are many Bohdisatava, Muslim, Shintos, and others that are fine Christians.
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
I'm no bible scholar, but I have read the bible, and I recall a little story called "the good Sameritan" and in this story Jesus illustrates that a good Christian is what a good Christian does, or is defined by action. What I don't recall is the part where the Sumeritan burns in hell for not accepting some doctrine that was not part of his religion. If my car breaks down, it is no longer a car. If I fix it, it becomes a car again, as it funtions as one. I beleive that their are many Bohdisatava, Muslim, Shintos, and others that are fine Christians.
"16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3)
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EEEEEEK!!! I'm going to burn!:eek:
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Originally posted by Heiliger
"16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3)
Yes, that is also in the bible. So now it becomes a question of wheather the 2 points of contradiction are congruent with Christ's spiritual philosophy. If what Christ said is true, then the other is a negation, but if the other is true, Christs philosophy becomes mute, which leads me to think that there has been alot of major mistranslations in the bible that may or may not have been for the intention of control. I'm going with what fits the philosophy on this one, as it gives the teachings of Christ and his purpose the benifit of the doubt. There is also another possibility, and that is that both are wrong or partially wrong. In that case, there is no platform for debate. If Christ's teachings become mute, there is no platform for Christianity, as the name of the religion implies an emphasis on him and what he said, and the philosophy that he lived by as the son of god. These contradictions are endless and I would like to think that they are the product of the inferiority of the english language.
Contradictions in cannon and philosophy pose a problem that forces a choice. For me, I'll go with philosophy
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ok who brought the sacrifice ??
Ive got the "Alter of BBQ" all setup :D
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Originally posted by NUKE
The 10 commandments were for Isreal, the old law.
God sent Jesus to die for our sins and abolished the old law. You can go to heaven if you accept Jesus as your savior. Jesus died for the sins of man, and we are forgiven if we accept Jesus. All of us sin, yet Jesus will forgive us. And no sin is any worse or less in God's eyes.
If the 10 Commandments are no longer valid for true belivers of Christ then please do tell why the born again evangelical christians are so up in arms about the 10 commandments being removed from schools, courts and other public instituitions of power and influence in societty?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
If the 10 Commandments are no longer valid for true belivers of Christ then please do tell why the born again evangelical christians are so up in arms about the 10 commandments being removed from schools, courts and other public instituitions of power and influence in societty?
I can't tell you.
Can you tell me why catholics worship the virgin Mary, rub rosary beads, chant "hail Mary's, elect a "holy father" and confess their sins to men?
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But they are all going to hell for doing so in violation of the Bible, right? Just like the evil catholics?
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NO
When your God... you can do WTF you want.
Smiting those who don't like it is an option.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But they are all going to hell for doing so in violation of the Bible, right? Just like the evil catholics?
Anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior is going to hell.
Can you answer even one of my questions from my original post?
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Originally posted by GREENTENERAL
Yes, that is also in the bible. So now it becomes a question of wheather the 2 points of contradiction are congruent with Christ's spiritual philosophy. If what Christ said is true, then the other is a negation, but if the other is true, Christs philosophy becomes mute, which leads me to think that there has been alot of major mistranslations in the bible that may or may not have been for the intention of control...
No it becomes a question of whether you are reading what you want to see or what is actually there.
What I don't recall is the part where the Sumeritan burns in hell for not accepting some doctrine that was not part of his religion.
...and I don't recall the part where he is commended for his lack of Faith or his rejection of God the Son.
What I do recall is:
"6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14)
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2)
If you are concerned with translation issues, here is an online bible that allows you to read Greek and Hebrew:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
and a couple Lexicons:
http://www.studylight.org/lex/
and more free downloadable resources:
http://www.e-sword.net/
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Originally posted by NUKE
Anyone who does not accept Jesus as their savior is going to hell.
Does that include 6-month-old babies?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Try better bait next time.
Karaya
Why?
He is doing well i think.
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Originally posted by myelo
Does that include 6-month-old babies?
I dont think so.. Nuke is still here.
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I recall reading somewhere that the King James version is acually one of the finest translations of the original available. I harboured my own doubts about its accurracy for quite a while, but now my doubts have doubts.
personally, I dont think any version of christianity has to justify itself to any of the others.
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Originally posted by Heiliger
No it becomes a question of whether you are reading what you want to see or what is actually there.
...and I don't recall the part where he is commended for his lack of Faith or his rejection of God the Son.
What I do recall is:
"6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." (John 14)
"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2)
If you are concerned with translation issues, here is an online bible that allows you to read Greek and Hebrew:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
and a couple Lexicons:
http://www.studylight.org/lex/
and more free downloadable resources:
http://www.e-sword.net/
I guess that depends upon what you think a man is. Is it the aknowledgement of his existence, or is it something more? When Christ says "through me" what does that mean to you? Does that mean that he is like a bouncer at a club, with an eye for who gets in and who does not, or does it mean that we must do our best to understand him, what he is, the core of his ways, his philosophy, and try to acheive this, to aspire? If you know what I am about, you know me, all that counts anyways.
Does the core philosophy have its own merit, without the promise of reward? I myself do not seek reward. If heaven did not exist, would you fall off the wagon? If god was a myth, would these principles be relevent? If there were no brownie points counted, would they be worth collecting? I have a feeling that if we were born in another land, we would be raised in the philosophy and religion of that land. We would honor our family, and glean the best from it, like all good Christians. The fanatics of the world all beleive that they are the chosen ones. This is the way all over the world, under the premise of reward and their will to power.
If someone does what you do, believes in the principles that you do, holds sacred what you do, how do you know that you are not worshiping the same god?
There are people in this world that are thankful for things that I cannot even see yet, and closer to perfection than I will ever understand. Not all of them call themselves Christians. If there is a hell for them, then burning in hell would be an honor.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres one for you:
Assuming there is a god, a christian one at that, should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this? Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
I'm interested to hear the christian view on this.
Why ask or even worry with this if you don't believe in the 1st place.
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Guess Again BlkKnt.
Go back to when Emperor Constatine first put all the varies Gospels, testements, etc together.
He left out more than he put in.
As to whats left, there is one thing you must keep in mind when dealing with the Bible.
It is nothing more and nothing less than a hiistory of mankinds belief in (a) God.
All the way from Genisis to Revelations, it was an oral tradition passed on by man. Written by man, edited by man, again, and again, and again.
Not to mention the many times its been translated from the original languages it was written in. Into greek, latin and eventually english. Losing who knows how much each time in the process.
As for nuke's claims, since this is all a matter of "belief" and "Faith" I'll choose to live by this one.
"In my Fathers house are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you"
Take your "Believe as I say or go to hell" print it out, fold it till its all corners, and stick it, well you know where now don't you. :)
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Not only has the bible been translated Ghost, it's also been interpreted to fit into each new language per the translators interpretation.
There is no accurate version other than the original.
If someone were to wish to read the real bible and know what it really says, they need to know hebrew - even then there are scholars that read that and interpret it how they see fit.
-SW
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Guess Again BlkKnt.
Go back to when Emperor Constatine first put all the varies Gospels, testements, etc together.
He left out more than he put in.
Correction: Emporer Constantine did not put all of the various Gospels together. He merely convened the first Ecumenical Council whereby all the Bishops of the Church decided, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what should and should not be in the Bible.
"Where two or more gather in my name..."
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Was some time back but I knew someone that wanted to know why a car needed an oil change.
I have a mechanical background and I tried to explain.
I explained friction. I explained heat. I explained ring blow by making the oil get dirty. I explained wear. I explained, and explained, and explained.
This person, just could not, or would not understand any of what I said and continued to ask why a car needed an oil change.
As to why the ten commandments? Our legal system was and still is, to some degree, based upon it and the mosaic laws.
IE: the death penalty was/is related to mosaic law. GOD said send those that murder to him.
Also... the Ten Commandments are still in effect. Not for all, but more so for some then for others. Much of that which is warned against within Mosaic law has a solid scientific base. The eating of some creatures is, or can be, quite dangerous.
Much of what is contained within the Bible is not easy to understand without a knowledge of what the world was like during those times. One needs to be a scholar of such things if one is to have an understanding of them.
Do you know anything about the Nephelim? Probably spelled it wrong. The Cannites? Probably spelled that wrong too. I don't think you can find a full explaination about them in the Bible. You have to look elsewhere. Point is before you start making statements you might want to research the question a little closer.
The great flood IIRC is related to the Nephelim.
GOD was, IMHO, staying within his Ten Commandments in every case. Perhaps my understanding of Ten Commandments differs from yours.
"Thou shall not kill"
IIRC kill and slay in olde english have different meanings. Kill I believe was tied to murder, or causing the death of an innocent, whereas slay was to bring about the death of an opponent on a battlefield, or in defense of yourself, or others, when attacked.
Samson, IIRC within the King James Version, did not kill his enemies but he did slay his enemies. Although I think it says or uses the word slew (the plural form?).
IIRC in the original Hebrew the word used means MURDER.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Why?
He is doing well i think.
True. :rofl
Karaya
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OK GhostH...
Now, the info I had claimed that the KJV was in fact translated not from one version, or from even the early greek version, but took into account all versions up to that time and made use of them for the best possible translation (according to thier limitations of course).
Granted there was much left out and re-interpreted in that Constantinian era. Aryanism became heresy for one thing, which put the newly converted german tribes out of the good graces of the church and empire (again). But then again, JAGED has a valid point IMO.
I am of the same opinion about the bible Ghost, but its not the exact reading which my faith hinges on....rather the concept and ideal. But unlike some people (the type of which we have all met at one time or another) I dont think I need to tell everyone else what they should believe or how they should feel about this topic.
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Correction: Emporer Constantine did not put all of the various Gospels together. He merely convened the first Ecumenical Council whereby all the Bishops of the Church decided, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what should and should not be in the Bible.
"Where two or more gather in my name..."
JAGED is absolutely right. Some of you need a good histrory lesson. Especially Nuke. Not only he doesn't understand Catholicism it's clear he has trouble making sense out of the whole 'Christian' thing.
All of Protestantism's erroneous repudiations of the Orthodox Churches (to include Catholicism) have as a basis the no less erroneous repudiation of Sacred Tradition by Protestants (The Bible didn't spontaneously generate. The books of the Bible, and others, were written and inspired by the Holy Spirit but that which we call the Bible can not be properly understood with out understanding the traditions and the teachings that they evolved from.) They strive to lean only on Sacred Scripture (Bible), not realizing to what extent both constitute one undivided whole.
Protestants arbitrarily limit the action of the Holy Spirit in the Church to apostolic times, and that is why they consider all church enactments that have appeared definitively after the Apostles as purely human. They forget at the same time that even the very composition of the books comprising Sacred Scripture (first Ecumenical Council) was determined considerably after the death of the Apostles. Protestants forget also, or prefer not to remember, that the oral preaching of Christianity (the oral Tradition) preceded the inscription of the sacred books of the New Testament.
Or, recognizing Sacred Tradition until the time of the definitive composition of the books of the New Testament in the second century, Protestants have difficulty agreeing that the Holy Spirit, abiding in the Church as in the Body of Christ, did not cease to safeguard and vivify the true meaning of Sacred Scripture in the following centuries as well.
According to Orthodox teaching, Sacred Scripture is the fundamental monument of Sacred Tradition and contains the fullness of the divine revelation. But the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Apostles and Evangelists in their oral and written evangelism, guides the Holy Church even now, promoting the understanding and assimilation of Christ's truth.
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what no Frodo and a Ring in there somewhere?
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Originally posted by Torque
what no Frodo and a Ring in there somewhere?
:rofl
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Man it's hillarious seeing how many took this troll bait, hook, line and sinker. The opening question is so fraught with sarcastic ignorance that I wouldn't know where to begin to answer, assuming I was so inclined.:lol :lol :lol
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I'm not even going to begin to get into the debate. Just a couple of points to add though for edification.
The difficulty in translations is that Hebrew is a linguistic nightmare even for those who know how to read it. Hebrew has no vowels. Words quite literally can be taken many different ways, and even pronounced different ways. It takes scholars years of training to even begin to hope to understand context properly. Greek is a little easier, being very similar to Hebrew but with the vowels in place. Assuming the Greek translation is good (and for the New Testament, I would think both Greek and Latin translations should be, since most Jews at the time spoke at least some of all 3), translation becomes easier. Translation from Latin is the most simple, with Latin being the base for so many modern languages.
I think Wotan had it the closest. If you truly believe the Bible is God's Divine Word, then you have to trust that whatever language you read it in the Bible contains what you need in order to understand God's Will and get by. Its just part of Faith. I don't care if you are Protestant or Catholic, every true Christian believes that. However, I'm also staying clear of the Protestant/Catholic argument.
On the issue of Old Testament vs New Testament, and why the Ten Commandments matter if they are nullified?
The point of the death and resurrection of Jesus was that he took the place of the sacrifices made in the Temple. Before, in order to atone for sin, you were required to make a sacrifice to God. Something that would be important to you, and pleasing to God as your offering. This sacrifice could only be performed by God's annointed Priests, in a part of the Temple where laymen were never allowed. Jesus took the place of all sacrifices, from that point until the end of time. All we have to do is accept him as that sacrifice, and be truly penitent for our sins. Lambs were traditionally used in this sacrifice, and came to symbolize innocence lost and restored. Thus Jesus is known as "the Lamb of God". So yes, you could theoretically break every one of the Ten Commandments and as long as you were truly sorry you could be forgiven. Just like that. So what about the Ten Commandments?
The Ten Commandments were given as God's Law for his people (Jews) to live by. You can, by inference, extend them to Gentile Christians since our Faith's traditions are descended from the Jewish model (hence the term "Judeo-Christian"). In the OT days, only a person who lived a perfect life (obeyed every one of the Ten Commandments) could go to Heaven. You could, of course, make sacrifice to atone for sin, but it wasn't conceiveable to do it every day, and we sin every day. Jesus' never-ending sacrifice sort of "relaxed" that. We should still live a good life, but the acceptance of the sacrifice, in essence accepting that we are willing to do things God's way instead of our own, is the most essential aspect. The reason many Christians get bent out of shape over the debate on removing displays of the Ten Commandments from public places is that the US was founded on Christian principles, our Constitution and our laws are based on the model laid out by the Ten Commandments. Not because of moral issues necessarily, but because they make good sense as the basis for a working society. They see the removal of the Ten Commandments as an attack on their way of life, their faith, their history and their country. Some fundamentalists stir the pot and make things even more heated than they need to be. It has nothing (or little) to do with historical context.
As for the issue of Mary, it's a non-issue since she wasn't married at the time she was made to be with child. I'm assuming that was a joke, but I thought I'd throw that in anyway.
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Originally posted by RedTop
Why ask or even worry with this if you don't believe in the 1st place.
Quoted for truth.
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Originally posted by myelo
Does that include 6-month-old babies?
I think god, knows who, and who cant understand the religion. Maybe if
they parents were saved?:confused:
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No need to single out Christians....I don't think there is any God or god from any religion on the planet that follows His or Her or It's own rules, is there?
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Originally posted by Tumor
NO
When your God... you can do WTF you want.
Smiting those who don't like it is an option.
Oh to have that power:)
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Regarding the Great Flood.
The Nephilim were Fallen Angels, sons of God, who had gone to Earth and taken human wives. This angered God....
"The Nephilim were one of the primary reasons for the great Flood in Noah's time. Immediately after the Nephilim are mentioned, God's Word tells us this, "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them" (Genesis 6:5-7). So, God proceeded to flood the entire earth, killing everyone and everything (including the Nephilim) other than Noah and his family and the animals on the ark (Genesis 6:11-22)."
and...
One by one the angels of heaven are appointed by God to proceed against the Watchers and their offspring the Nephilim, described as 'the bastards and the reprobates, and the children of fornication'. Azazel is bound hand and foot, and cast for eternity into the darkness of a desert referred to as Dudael. Upon him are placed 'rough and jagged rocks' and here he shall forever remain until the Day of judgment, when he will be 'cast into the fire' for his sins. For their part in the corruption of mankind, the Watchers are forced to witness the slaughter of their own children before being cast into some kind of heavenly prison, an 'abyss of fire'. Although the Watchers' leader, Shemyaza, is cast into this abyss alongside his brothers, in other versions of the story he undergoes a more dramatic punishment. Since he was tempted by a beautiful mortal maiden named Ishtahar to reveal the Explicit Name of God in exchange for the offer of carnal pleasure, he is to be tied and bound before being made to hang for all eternity between heaven and earth, head down, in the constellation of Orion."
Also...
"And God said to Noah, 'I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make yourself an ark of gopher wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its breadth fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and set the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks.
"For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
"And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you, to keep them alive. Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them.' Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him."
So... God was attempting to savour mankind, to rid it of evil this was God's justification for the Flood.
Incidently, one of the Fallen Angels (The Nephilim/The Watchers) was called 'Anakim'... perhaps where Star Wars 'Anakin' came from eh? :)
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Originally posted by NUKE
I don't think so, but how could I possibly know? Think about this though: If you do not accept Jesus as your savour, God will put you in hell. Hell is the true death.
But but but, I thought he loves us.
So in a sense, God will kill you if you reject him.
:lol that kind of reminds me of a few people. Lets see, there is Hitler, Sadam, Stalin and company, Pick any relegius leader, etc. Sounds like he is a loving caring kind of guy :lol
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Some of you trollers are self evident, but for the rest here goes.
You can not equate Modern day christians with God's children of the old testiment. Likewise you cannot take things (especially out of context) from the old testiment and apply them to christians of today.
A new deal has been struck (see: covinent SP)
john 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
you can bring up all the old testiment stuff you want but truth be told this is the meat and potatoes. Beleive in christ and that he died for your sins. Repent your sins before god. Live in christs way and God's light will shine apon you.
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Not all Christians believe that the 10 Commandments are no longer God's Law.
And yes, I think God lives by his own laws. The flood and distruction of Sodom and Gomorra did not break any of His laws.
God is the ultimate judge and jury. The Bible says that the people before the flood and in the two cities were so wicked that God could not let it go on. What they exactly did to cross the line we don't know, but God was forced to deal out their judgment a little earlier than normal. For all we know His actions saved humanity from its own distruction.
The sixth commandment says thou shalt not murder. For God to deal out Judgment is not murder.
I don't understand the Mary question.
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OK, reall question. You guys realize that all these books and stories have been writen by humans, right? You also understand that they have been translated from one lunguage to an other repeatedly by humans, right?
What is it then that makes someone assume that all this is real? Why do you assume that just because you were born in a serten place, by serten parents, and you were told what religion you are, all the others are wrong and only the select few got it right? To help you understand the question. I was born in Greece by Christian orthodox parents in a Christian orthodox country. From the moment I was born I was told that WE got it right and you guys are wrong. Thats the same thing you were told about the rest of us. So, who is right then?
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Originally posted by dedalos
OK, reall question. You guys realize that all these books and stories have been writen by humans, right? You also understand that they have been translated from one lunguage to an other repeatedly by humans, right?
What is it then that makes someone assume that all this is real? Why do you assume that just because you were born in a serten place, by serten parents, and you were told what religion you are, all the others are wrong and only the select few got it right? To help you understand the question. I was born in Greece by Christian orthodox parents in a Christian orthodox country. From the moment I was born I was told that WE got it right and you guys are wrong. Thats the same thing you were told about the rest of us. So, who is right then?
It's called Faith
also keep in mind this:
Religon is an IDEA created by MAN to be closer to GOD
Were as CHRIST was FLESH created by GOD to be closer to MAN!
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It's Faith, you either have it or you don't. I grew up Baptist, with Baptist parents, Baptist grandparents, etc. I found I didnt agree with everything our Pastor said on Sundays, heard a few things that made me doubt the relevance, or even the proper translation of the Bible I grew up with. I still believed at the core in SOMETHING, but didnt know what. So I learned about what else was there. I studied Judaism, and how early Christianity took its forms from it. I studied Islam, and how it is indisputably just as linked to Judaism as Christianity is, despite modern attempts to separate them. I went to Catholic priests and discussed philosophy and theology with them, went to services in their Church (although I did not take Communion with them). Later, I talked to Bhuddists and Shinto worshippers. I studied Aikido and learned about their peculiar blend of the two. I studied and practiced with Native American shamans and modern day Druids and Wiccans. Everywhere you go, there is a central belief in something, some BEING, above us all, a Creator. And then after all that, I went back and re-read the Bible. Plain old KJV, and all those conspiracy theories I used to have floating around in my head were revealed as nonsense. The Word is plain enough, if you read it with the intent of finding what you need. If you read it with the intent to find problems or inconsistencies, you haven't opened the right door. I can't give you Truth, no one can. If you expect to see something wrong, you will. Faith is funny like that.
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Originally posted by dedalos
OK, reall question. You guys realize that all these books and stories have been writen by humans, right? You also understand that they have been translated from one lunguage to an other repeatedly by humans, right?
What is it then that makes someone assume that all this is real? Why do you assume that just because you were born in a serten place, by serten parents, and you were told what religion you are, all the others are wrong and only the select few got it right? To help you understand the question. I was born in Greece by Christian orthodox parents in a Christian orthodox country. From the moment I was born I was told that WE got it right and you guys are wrong. Thats the same thing you were told about the rest of us. So, who is right then?
Good questions. Most Christians believe that the Bible was given to us through God and that He has ensured its meaning has stayed pure throuout the centuries. The dead sea scrolls seem to indicate that very little if anything has changed.
As for knowing your religion is right just because your parents said so, I think is like playing Russian roulette. Every person must study for themselves the Bible and let the Holy Spirit guide them to the truth. Just reading it like a history book will do you no good. You must pray and seek for answers to your questions with an open heart and God will reward your efforts. It is by a personal relationship with God and being Christlike that we are saved.
Luke 11:9 - And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luke 11:10 - For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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Originally posted by dedalos
OK, reall question. You guys realize that all these books and stories have been writen by humans, right? You also understand that they have been translated from one lunguage to an other repeatedly by humans, right?
What is it then that makes someone assume that all this is real? Why do you assume that just because you were born in a serten place, by serten parents, and you were told what religion you are, all the others are wrong and only the select few got it right? To help you understand the question. I was born in Greece by Christian orthodox parents in a Christian orthodox country. From the moment I was born I was told that WE got it right and you guys are wrong. Thats the same thing you were told about the rest of us. So, who is right then?
Exactly, to me, the best part of any religion is the philosophy, the real meat and potatoes. I will never assume that I am some kind of "chosen one" just because of the place that I was born, or that presise interpretation will get me some kind of reward. If all a religion requires is the exceptance of it's god or gods, give me the pamplet, because all the rest is just filler. To me the existence of Christ, Guatama, or whomever is irrelevant to the philosophy.
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Originally posted by dedalos
OK, reall question. You guys realize that all these books and stories have been writen by humans, right? You also understand that they have been translated from one lunguage to an other repeatedly by humans, right?
What is it then that makes someone assume that all this is real? Why do you assume that just because you were born in a serten place, by serten parents, and you were told what religion you are, all the others are wrong and only the select few got it right? To help you understand the question. I was born in Greece by Christian orthodox parents in a Christian orthodox country. From the moment I was born I was told that WE got it right and you guys are wrong. Thats the same thing you were told about the rest of us. So, who is right then?
Just to set the record straight, the official stance of the Orthodox Church is that salvation can definitely be found within her, but they don't pretend to know what will happen to those that are not part of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy says that's for God to sort out, not men.
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Were there not innocents in Sodom and Gomora, and during the great flood? It always seemed to me that someone with "god powers" took some pretty broadsweeps. In in those sweeps I'm sure there were "innocents", which means in essence god must have committed murder. Which throws the whole semantic definition of "thou shalt not kill" argument out the window.
And then theres sending people to be judged. I understood God judged you when you died and ended up outside the pearly gates. That your actions on earth decided your fate. And that bad people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler didn't get smited because thats not the way it works - ie they do their time on earth then get judged by god.
Yet in direct contradiction to this we have god smiting the entire planet, cities, and odd individuals from time to time.
I also don't get the whole flood the earth, nuke a couple of cities to start again then later when his people go off the rails a 3rd time he sends his son whom he sacrifices. Don't know about you but the god seems a little fast to pass the buck and let others take the fall for failures in his grand design.
Sometimes this christian god sounds just a little to "human" to me, to many flaws ;)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Were there not innocents in Sodom and Gomora, and during the great flood? It always seemed to me that someone with "god powers" took some pretty broadsweeps. In in those sweeps I'm sure there were "innocents", which means in essence god must have committed murder. Which throws the whole semantic definition of "thou shalt not kill" argument out the window.
And then theres sending people to be judged. I understood God judged you when you died and ended up outside the pearly gates. That your actions on earth decided your fate. And that bad people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler didn't get smited because thats not the way it works - ie they do their time on earth then get judged by god.
Yet in direct contradiction to this we have god smiting the entire planet, cities, and odd individuals from time to time.
I also don't get the whole flood the earth, nuke a couple of cities to start again then later when his people go off the rails a 3rd time he sends his son whom he sacrifices. Don't know about you but the god seems a little fast to pass the buck and let others take the fall for failures in his grand design.
Sometimes this christian god sounds just a little to "human" to me, to many flaws ;)
there may or may not have been innocents BUT iirc there were a few familys that were instructed by God to leave the city and not look back.
EDIT: also I beleive god gave them plenty of warning and they laughed at him.
As they were leaving one of the woman looked back and was turned into salt. That may have been babylon, I can't remember.
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actually it was lot's wife leaving sodom.
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You had it right Gunslinger. That was Lot's wife. God sent angels to search for anyone in the cities who deserved saving. Only Lot and his family were found to hold to God and his laws still, and were spared. They were told not to look back, to have faith and they would be saved. Lot's wife doubted and looked back towards their home, and was turned into a pillar of salt.
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Originally posted by jetb123
I think god, knows who, and who cant understand the religion. Maybe if
they parents were saved?:confused:
Confused is right.
So if you can't understand the religion you go to heaven?
I would be interested in any documentation of this loophole.
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Children don't go to hell because they dont understand the difference between right and wrong. They are innocents.
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Originally posted by myelo
Confused is right.
So if you can't understand the religion you go to heaven?
I would be interested in any documentation of this loophole.
I allways wondered about this. There's millions of sould through out time that had absolutly ZERO exposure to the word of God by no fault of their own. Does this mean they are condemned.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Children don't go to hell because they dont understand the difference between right and wrong. They are innocents.
now that's a b.s. loophole. those little bastards should burn in hell right along with us adults.
ack-ack
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One summer, when I was 14, a bunch of friends and I decided to play a game called "Dungeons & Dragons". The players manual was about an inch thick with alot of pictures. After a few weeks, I lost interest in playing that game because no one could agree on the rules. When I got older, I noticed that that scenario was going on everywhere, and the books were even bigger.
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Inflammatory
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Personal attack
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OK heres one for you:
Assuming there is a god, a christian one at that, should he live by his own principles/commands set down in the 10 commandments?
If so, how does his actions during the great flood and the smiting of sodom and the one I can't spell reflect on this? Would Mary count as being a "coveted wife"?
I'm interested to hear the christian view on this.
Hi Vulcan,
I must admit to not having read any of the other posts on this thread yet, so please accept my apologies if all of this has been said before. I'm sick as a dog and had intended to get to bed after finishing up my sermon, but I said to myself, "I'll just do a quick scan of the O'Club titles and... then there was this hook in my mouth so, what could I do?
Again, here I'm going to smash a lot of principles flat for the sake of brevity. Books could and have been written on the subject you are approaching - i.e. the Law of God.
From a biblical point of view though, the fundamental premises of the question are wrong. Let me try to explain what I mean. Again, I am speaking as a Christian theist answering from a biblical worldview, I know this won't satisfy atheists, but I hope it will at least be intelligible (my mind is real fuzzy at present).
God is the Creator, originator, and sustainer of everything. There is nothing above him, he is the source of all things. There are no "brute facts" or laws natural or otherwise that existed before him or are independent of him.
However, remember that God is perfectly holy, perfectly wise, perfectly just, and perfectly good. All of these characteristics find their essence in him, and in so far as anything else can be described as "good", it is as a reflection of his own original and perfect goodness.
As God's creation, man was originally made in God's image (unlike anything else in creation) and as such he correctly reflected God's communicable attributes - i.e. things like knowledge, righteousness, and holiness as opposed to incommunicable attributes like omnipresence, omnipotence, etc.
Now what is God's Law in it's essence? It is an application of the perfect holiness of God to the life of man. It is divided into two tables: the first 4 commandments expressing man's duty to God, and the next 6 expressing man's duty to his fellow man. We see this division spelled out by Jesus in his summarization of the commandments into two laws: " 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
The particular commandments themselves answer the "how" question, "how do I love the Lord my God in regard to my use of his name?" (see Commandment 3) or if we were to ask "how do I love my neighbor in regards to whether to lie or tell the truth?" (See commandment nine). To obey the commandments was to obey God's laws for the life, faith, and practice of man and thus live a life that reflected the image of God and obeyed His commandment to "Be holy, for I am holy."
In his original unfallen state in the Garden, man was able to do this. Adam was originally capable of obeying the law perfectly. But unlike God, who does not change (he is immutable) Adam was created mutable, and by his choice he chose to sin by disobeying God. After he sinned, he fell, was cursed and became dead in sin (Eph. 2:1) and after that it became impossible for men to perfectly keep the Law of God (Rom. 8:7).
What is sin? Disobeying God's law either by commission or ommission. The wages of Sin is death - in other words, God's righteous judment for disobeying his law should be death, both physical and eternal. God would have been justified by condemning all men to hell at that point. But God instead of giving all men perfect justice, elected to give some mercy instead of the justice they deserved. In order for this to happen, someone would have to stand in the place of fallen man and pay the penalty for their transgressions, and not only that but keep the law on their behalf. Only God Himself could offer up the perfect sacrifice necessary to atone for the sins of man, and only he could keep the law on the behalf of fallen sinners and give his own righteousness to them as a gift. Which is exactly what the Bible tells us that Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity came into the world to do:
1 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."(Mat. 1:21)
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." (1 Tim. 1:15)
Now as far as the Flood and the Amalekite massacre were concerned, God was not murdering (which is what the 6th commandment forbids) any more than a judge commits murder when he sentences the convicted murderer to death. All those who died in the flood and in the Amalekite massacre had sinned (and for instance, in the case of the Amalekites these sins involved things like child sacrifice) they stood already condemned, and God simply brought forward the beginning of their sentence. This punishment was just and well-deserved, and helpful to us as well because in the perfect justice of God we see the mercy of God in offering forgiveness through the sacrifice of his Son which is the heart of the Gospel beautifully highlighted and the plea to embrace it and be reconciled to God made all the more urgent.
William Tyndale, the 15 century English Reformer, Preacher, and Bible Translator put it beautifuly when he said:
"Expound the law truly, and open the veil of Moses, to condemn all flesh, and prove all men sinners, and all deeds under the law, before mercy have taken away the condemnation thereof, to be sin, and damnable; and then as a faithful minister, set abroach the mercy of our Lord Jesus, and let the wounded consciences drink of the water of him."
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Were there not innocents in Sodom and Gomora, and during the great flood? It always seemed to me that someone with "god powers" took some pretty broadsweeps. In in those sweeps I'm sure there were "innocents", which means in essence god must have committed murder. Which throws the whole semantic definition of "thou shalt not kill" argument out the window.
And then theres sending people to be judged. I understood God judged you when you died and ended up outside the pearly gates. That your actions on earth decided your fate. And that bad people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler didn't get smited because thats not the way it works - ie they do their time on earth then get judged by god.
Yet in direct contradiction to this we have god smiting the entire planet, cities, and odd individuals from time to time.
I also don't get the whole flood the earth, nuke a couple of cities to start again then later when his people go off the rails a 3rd time he sends his son whom he sacrifices. Don't know about you but the god seems a little fast to pass the buck and let others take the fall for failures in his grand design.
Sometimes this christian god sounds just a little to "human" to me, to many flaws ;)
Obviously he is a she :D
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Were there not innocents in Sodom and Gomora, and during the great flood? It always seemed to me that someone with "god powers" took some pretty broadsweeps. In in those sweeps I'm sure there were "innocents", which means in essence god must have committed murder. Which throws the whole semantic definition of "thou shalt not kill" argument out the window.
And then theres sending people to be judged. I understood God judged you when you died and ended up outside the pearly gates. That your actions on earth decided your fate. And that bad people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler didn't get smited because thats not the way it works - ie they do their time on earth then get judged by god.
Yet in direct contradiction to this we have god smiting the entire planet, cities, and odd individuals from time to time.
I also don't get the whole flood the earth, nuke a couple of cities to start again then later when his people go off the rails a 3rd time he sends his son whom he sacrifices. Don't know about you but the god seems a little fast to pass the buck and let others take the fall for failures in his grand design.
Sometimes this christian god sounds just a little to "human" to me, to many flaws ;)
Nope! According to the information there were NO innocents there.
It has already been pointed out, several times in fact, the original hebrew word used in that commandment means MURDER! If you don't believe me ask a Rabi.
Some Scientist argue that GOD probably used sulfer, not a nuke. They even think they may have found the cities. The stone around em seems to be melted?
Errr ahh thinkin they haven't gone off the rail the third time yet. Thinkin I recall reading that the people shall become as they were at the time of Noah 1st.
You know maybe you should read it instead of making such broad statements.
Naw never mind, thinkin this is more a case of seeing and hearing only what is wanted rather then actually looking at whats there, or then again maybe it's a troll.
Is that,
would that be,
a power trip kinda thing?
Hmmm.... Do i recall correctly ........ hmmm something in the bible about he or she who upsets others without just cause.... it's all put on them... double?
They get theirs just for being that way, you know the type, their the ones that think it's knee slapping funny to get others upset. Plus they get what would normally be the other person or persons because they caused it without a just need or reason?
Guess it don't matter to them if they don't believe. Their thinkin it don't aply to them. HMMM or does it? Do they get it back even if they don't? Seven fold? Always hear that saying ... what goes around comes around. Isn't that kinda a law of the universe?
Ya know what :D It's all been explained more then once I believe.:aok So it's on YOU SIR I'm done with it.
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seagoon I understand that sodom and gomora were clear of innocents. However, you cannot tell me that the great flood did not kill a single innocent. I also would like point out what kind of god turns a poor woman to a pile of salt because she "looked bad", its a bit over the top.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
seagoon I understand that sodom and gomora were clear of innocents. However, you cannot tell me that the great flood did not kill a single innocent. I also would like point out what kind of god turns a poor woman to a pile of salt because she "looked bad", its a bit over the top.
She had no faith. She was told have faith in me and don't look back. How do you know she was just a poor woman....she could have been screwing around on LOT and looking back to see the destruction of the biblical "pool boy".....
Vulcan I have to ask are you just trolling here or are you genuinly interested in the answers. You are comparing soddom and gamorrah with pol pot and hitler and the asking christians WHY?
CHRISTians....it has to do with Christ. He died for our sins so that we who are not perfect can be forgiven. The old testiment people did not have that luxury (SP). Even noah himself testified to his neighbors that a great flood is coming and they laughed at him (honor your neighbors as you honor yourself????)
In modern day if my neighbor was buidling a big bomb shelter and stocking up......I'd get a little worried.
Old testiment....noah.....
New Testiment.....Christ + new covenent (contract)
Is any of this making sense to you?
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Is any of this making sense to you?
About as much as the Tower of Babel.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
seagoon I understand that sodom and gomora were clear of innocents. However, you cannot tell me that the great flood did not kill a single innocent. I also would like point out what kind of god turns a poor woman to a pile of salt because she "looked bad", its a bit over the top.
Howdy again Vulcan,
Obviously I wasn't clear enough on this point in the last post, my bad. So here it is very spelled out as simply as I can: Following the fall, there are no innocents not a one. The number of mortal men the bible speaks of as born innocent with no need of salvation from sin is a null set. Again and again, the bible speaks of the universality of sin:
Is. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Romans 3:10 "10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one"
Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
Gen. 8:21 "And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done."
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
This includes even Abraham, Lot's Uncle, who was saved not by being good, or doing good works but by faith in God's promises, including the promised Redeemer:
Gen. 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness."
NKJ Romans 4:1-5 "What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,"
John 8:56-58 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
So, God's judgment in each of the cases you cite was not a crime perpetrated on an innocent, or an arbitrary act of malevolence, it was the just judgement of a holy God on people "already condemned" to quote Christ in John 3:18.
That universality of sin is why, Jesus can state unequivocally in John 3:3 "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." and then in John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
If I can let me humbly suggest that the problems you are having are less with Christians per se than with the Anthropology and Soteriology taught in the bible. It sounds like you are stuck in the same mode I was for awhile: "No, this cannot be right, I cannot, and I will not believe it"
Let me leave you with a quote on the subject of the universality of sin written over a century ago by J.C. Ryle, Bishop of Liverpool:
"I admit fully that man has many grand and noble faculties left about him, and that in arts and sciences and literature he shows immense capacity. But the fact still remains that in spiritual things he is utterly “dead” and has no natural knowledge, or love, or fear of God. His best things are so interwoven and intermingled with corruption, that the contrast only brings out into sharper relief the truth and extent of the Fall. That one and the same creature should be in some things so high and in others so low; so great and yet so little; so noble and yet so mean; so grand in his conception and execution of material things and yet so groveling and debased in his affections; that he should be able to plan and erect buildings like those at Carnac and Luxor in Egypt and the Parthenon at Athens, and yet worship vile gods and goddesses and birds and beasts and creeping things; that he should be able to produce tragedies like those of Aeschylus and Sophocles, and histories like that of Thucydides, and yet be a slave to abominable vices like those described in the first chapter of the Epistle to the Romans—all this is a sore puzzle to those who sneer at “God’s Word written” and scoff at us as bibliolaters. But it is a knot that we can untie with the Bible in our hands. We can acknowledge that man has all the marks of a majestic temple about him, a temple in which God once dwelt, but a temple which is now in utter ruins, a temple in which a shattered window here, and a doorway there, and a column there, still give some faint idea of the magnificence of the original design, but a temple which from end to end has lost its glory and fallen from its high estate. And we say that nothing solves the complicated problem of man’s condition but the doctrine of original or birth–sin and the crushing effects of the Fall."
BTW - I am happy to go on as long as you wish, a lot of people have been very patient with me throughout my life even though I didn't merit it, and God is still exceedingly patient with this particular sinner.
- SEAGOON
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Inflammatory/Off topic
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Off topic
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Vulcan I have to ask are you just trolling here or are you genuinly interested in the answers. You are comparing soddom and gamorrah with pol pot and hitler and the asking christians WHY?
One mans god is another mans genocidal maniac. The original question was does your god have to abide by his on laws. It seems how does not, however there seems to be a far number of christians who seem uncomfortable enough with their gods action who have felt the need to explain or excuse them.
seagoon, I appreciate a lot of work went into typing your answers, however I feel your probably are the perfect example of what I find most disappointing about christians. And that is an aversion to your own thoughts and opinions. Quoting endless pages from a bible that is essentially a compilation of anecdotes and looking for the answers to life in these.
I am not stuck in any "mode" ;) my mind is fairly open, and if I were religious, buddhism would be my path.
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Will there be internet in hell ? :p
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Originally posted by Vulcan
One mans god is another mans genocidal maniac. The original question was does your god have to abide by his on laws. It seems how does not, however there seems to be a far number of christians who seem uncomfortable enough with their gods action who have felt the need to explain or excuse them.
seagoon, I appreciate a lot of work went into typing your answers, however I feel your probably are the perfect example of what I find most disappointing about christians. And that is an aversion to your own thoughts and opinions. Quoting endless pages from a bible that is essentially a compilation of anecdotes and looking for the answers to life in these.
I am not stuck in any "mode" ;) my mind is fairly open, and if I were religious, buddhism would be my path.
The whole reason I ask and still do is because I STILL think you just don't get the difference. You keep bringing up all this old testiment stuff and then say the word "christians"
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Were there not innocents in Sodom and Gomora, and during the great flood?
You guys missed the most funny part of this story.
Abraham is actually bartering with god on the number of righteous people needed to be found in Sodom in order for god not to destroy the city. He brings god down to 10 people, but only 1 was found (Lot).
The new testement God is a putz. In the old testement he has an opinion, a sense of humor and sarcastic, cruel, smart-ass replies to the complaints of his followers.
btw, I'm sure Jesus has been pulling out his hairs the past 2000 years watching what his followers did with his teachings and done in his name...
Bozon
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It doesnt take alot to trust in Jesus. A peaceful loving person is a good person to follow. And when its all said and done...we'll either see Glory or darkness for eternity. My faith looks forward to Glory. And if by some chance it wasnt to be...whats the big deal. Am I going to be disappointed I didnt spend my life killing,raping and stealing from my neighbor?
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Off topic
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Originally posted by fd ski
Will there be internet in hell ? :p
Yes but its all on 802.11g TURBO.