Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Fongman on May 06, 2005, 08:00:08 AM
-
(http://tuku.military.china.com/military/pic/2005-05-03/1009390_124639917.jpg)
-
I wouldn't want to be the one standing behind it when it fires!
(Schwere is German for heavy)
-
There's no picture?
-
Originally posted by Krusty
There's no picture?
takes a long time to load from asia
-
Fongman downloads too much stuff like your avatar Jb ;)
-
Big gun...
Anyone know how effective railway guns like that actually were?
Especially the Gustav which, I believe, actually needed the railway built as it went (ran on two sets of side-by-side tracks)
-
(http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/ssp/ssp2015.jpg)
-
Wasnn't there also "Big Bertha"?
I know the Gerries had guns that fired across the channel to Britain. They were primary bomber targets naturally.
-
I dont know which gun that was, but I do recall one of the UK-targetted guns. It was unaimable, and used multiple impulses to accelerate the shell. Pretty neat design actually, but useful only as a terror weapon, as it could only be 'aimed' by adjusting the firing impulses, and thus range.
-
Originally posted by Tails
Anyone know how effective railway guns like that actually were?
I recall someone said it was as effective as a heavy-bomber raid.
-
Originally posted by frank3
I recall someone said it was as effective as a heavy-bomber raid.
The first time a "Paris Gun" shell landed, the citizens in Paris thought it was a terrorist bombing. It blew up a water-treatment plant. It also took a battalion of men to operate a single gun. iirc, it also de-railed itself everytime it fired. Typically German. An ultimately ineffective marvel of engineering :)
ahhh, here's what I'm thinking of.. WW1! The precursor to the Dora & Gustav.
(http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Paris_Gun.jpg)
-
http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Page13/page13.htm (http://palpatine.chez.tiscali.fr/Page13/page13.htm)
-
Originally posted by indy007
The first time a "Paris Gun" shell landed, the citizens in Paris thought it was a terrorist bombing. It blew up a water-treatment plant. It also took a battalion of men to operate a single gun. iirc, it also de-railed itself everytime it fired. Typically German. An ultimately ineffective marvel of engineering :)
ahhh, here's what I'm thinking of.. WW1! The precursor to the Dora & Gustav.
(http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Paris_Gun.jpg)
I remember that gun. Needed external support, because the barrel was so long and heavy.
Also, each round was stacked in a sequence, with each following round in the sequence larger in calibur than the first. This was because the firing charge would eat away the inside of the barrel from the heat involved, increasing the inner diameter and requiring a larger shell to fire. (kinda like some of the Mosin-Nagants that I've bought sight-unseen :eek: )
-
I was watching some thing on Discovery that mentioned one of these things.
Used at the Battle of Sebastopol; it managed to pierce the main fortress magazines and store rooms; which were mined from the coast out under the sea.
It actually dropped shells that managed to go through the sea bottom to the structures below.
However; the program concluded that in total; the resources devoted to guns of this kind; over all; could actualy be seen to be detrimental to the war effort.
They did the sprecialist job they were designed to do; but then so could an extra thousand Fw190's.
-
Originally posted by Tails
Big gun...
Anyone know how effective railway guns like that actually were?
Especially the Gustav which, I believe, actually needed the railway built as it went (ran on two sets of side-by-side tracks)
The Gustav only needed a two sets of angled tracks at it`s firing position (to set the horizontal firing angle), this was typical as railway guns go; otherwise it was sent into it`s deployment place broken down in pieces and assambled on the spot on the normal RR lines.
The Gustav itself was an uber-example, build and designed originally to deal with the Maginot line, but it wasn`t ready before France was overrun. And in the 30s it was seen as the only solution, bombers did not have the payload. In fact, it was not until 1945 when bombers could do the same job, but more cheaply, and then only the specialized Lancaster types.
Otherwise, I think the normal railway guns were very useful and practical in Europe, all large continental armies had them. Bringing such heavy arty piece into action and serve it was much simplier in Europe`s dense RR network then transporting it on road. Think of the efforts that would require a 50 ton gun into position in the muddy russian roads, an artyman`s nightmare.. Of course, they were specialized, high performance heavy pieces for special tasks, and did not neccesary offer much advantage vs ordinary field howitzers in ordinary task, like, bombarding entranched infantry. But some special tasks, like quickly overcoming fortifications absolutely required them, and nota bene, there was no other weapon that could do the same! Their enourmous firepower had more effect on moral than physical, just think of 'Anzio Annie', which was actually one example of the standard 280mm Wehrmacht RR guns.
Re the 'Paris gun' aka the 'Big Bertha', it was actually a highly modified German naval gun. The British tried to come up with their own version of it in WW1, with similiar background ie. based on a 380mm RN naval gun, named 'Bruce'. I think they wanted it to fire accross the Channel. From memo, it had less range than the Big Bertha but did not see action. The US also came up with a short ranged, but huge caliber howitzer in the end of WW2. It was a towed weapon, and said to be highly mobile, but didn`t see action either. IIRC it was the 'Little David'.
-
Big Bertha (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWbertha.htm)
Just the top of the list of a google search.
Paints quite a good picture; I hate to think what it must have been like to be i Sebastopol.
I can see Izzy's point; but I would have thought the larger guns to be very vulnerable jabo targets.
Were any of them lost this way?
-
From the book shown in a post above.
On June 22 1941 the batteries were deployed as follows: Eastern Front: southern sector - 2; central sector - 5; northern sector - 2; Balkans - 1; Western Front - 9; Rugenwalde - 1. At the same time, there was 13 armoured trains numbered: 1-7, 15, 21-25. In 1942, 5 railroad guns were built (USA: 50 guns built); in 1943, 4 guns (USA: 1300), 1844 USA 450. As compensation for their fewer guns, the German railway artillery units had the heaviest and best weapons in WW2.
It notes that the biggest problem with the RR guns was that they were restricted to tracks which could leave the gun isolated.
The logistics for the guns was huge. A K5(E) battery with one or two guns required 2 seperate trains. The "gun train" had a loco, the K5(E) gun, a ventilated ammo car, a diesel switching loco, 2 shell cars, 2 propellant cars, 1 equipment car, 1 armoured car, 1 kitchen and supply car, 1 flat car (flak) a 3 buses (passenger) cars. The "turntable train" had a loco, 1 car for each section of the turntable, 1 car for the 16 sections for the circular traverse track and the construction crane, 1 car with rail and track fittings, 3 ammo cars, 1 supply and tool car, 1 flak car, and 9 flat cars for unit vehicles.
The 80cm gun required 3 or 4 construction trains (about 1000 men) and another train for the railraod pioneers. About 1500 locals were required.
The heavy artillery unit for the Dora required all told ~3900 men.
The Dora's armoured tip shell weighed 7.1t while the HE shell weighed 4.8t. It required 3 propellant charges weighing between 1.85 - 2.0t each. With 3 charges and shell length was 6.79m for the armor shell and 8.26m for the HE shell. When fired, the track was displaced 3-5cm.
-
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the aiming of the large railroad guns were the precurser to rocket science. Because of the trajectory and distance, the Earth's rotation had to be taken into account while aiming.
-
Originally posted by JB42
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that the aiming of the large railroad guns were the precurser to rocket science. Because of the trajectory and distance, the Earth's rotation had to be taken into account while aiming.
Actually alot of people will argue that it competes with rocket science. The idea of being able to put satellites into orbit with a gun has led to alot of crazy designs & innovations by guys like Gerald Bull. He was a superb gun designer, and was building "Babylon" for Iraq. Could've literally shelled Israel from across the middle east. They say the Mossad got him.