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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DipStick on May 07, 2005, 01:10:58 PM

Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 07, 2005, 01:10:58 PM
Fighter Arena
Pure dogfighting at it's best!

(http://furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/DipStick/ds-fa.bmp)

A Bases will be Early War PLanes only, B Bases will be Early and Mid War and C Bases will be All (Fighter) planes.

Arena Settings - Same as Ma except:

2 Countries
No Scoring
Quadruple Amount of Field Ack but NO Puffy Ack
No Ord
No GVs
No Bombers


Other Settings:

1000 MPH Wind = 8K   > wind speed high as possible
>> Would also like to have a thick cloud layer at or just below 8K to show wind layer and block sun.
Ack Lethality  = X10+   > high as possible
Ack Accuracy  = X10+   > high as possible
Object Hardness (FHs, Ack and Radar) = X10+   > or indestructable if possible

Aircraft Available:

A Bases:

A6M2
Bf 109E-4
Bf 109F-4
C.202
FM2
Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane IID
P-40B
Spitfire Mk IA

B Bases:

A6M5b
A6M2
Bf 109E-4
Bf 109F-4
Bf 109G-2
Bf 109G-6
C.202
C.205
F4U-1
F4U-1D
F6F-5
FM2
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190F-8
Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane IIC
Hurricane IID  
Ki-61-I-KAIc
Ki-84-Ia
La-5FN
N1K2-J
P-38G
P-38J
P-40B
P-40E
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-51B
Seafire IIC
Spitfire Mk IA
Spitfire V
Spitfire Mk IX
Typhoon
Yak-9T

C Bases:
All the above plus --
Bf 109G-10
F4U-4
F4U-C
Fw 190D-9
La-7
P-38L
P-47D-30
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XIV
Tempest
Yak-9U

_____________________________ ___________

I'd like to hear everyone's input on this.

Please put a Yes or No (as in "Yes, I'd like to see it" or "No, we don't need it" at the start of your post. Skip a line then follow with questions, comments, suggestions. Thanks!


EDIT: Additions / Changes made, check often and please continue.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Grits on May 07, 2005, 01:22:33 PM
Yes, I like it.


Leave ammo and fuel at 1.0, and make all fighter aircraft available.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Sp4de on May 07, 2005, 01:23:46 PM
bomber arena would be better:D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: MOIL on May 07, 2005, 01:25:25 PM
I like it !!

I'll watch
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 07, 2005, 01:29:57 PM
Put three of those little areas on one map, apart from each other.

At one, make available early war only.
At another, make make available early and mid war only,
At the last, make all available.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Jish102 on May 07, 2005, 01:32:45 PM
I like it alot!

I would suggest enabling all planes but maybe perk planes
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: paulobrien6969 on May 07, 2005, 01:40:13 PM
yes
i like it
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: killnu on May 07, 2005, 02:04:56 PM
i like it, but can ya add ki84?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Schatzi on May 07, 2005, 02:13:26 PM
like it.

go look for it in H2H

Rare, but can be found.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: stantond on May 07, 2005, 02:24:00 PM
Yes.

One question:
How do you get rid of puffy ack?  That is similar to my H2H arena.   I still need to figure out how to get rid of puffy ack.  




Regards,

Malta
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Toad on May 07, 2005, 02:50:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
Put three of those little areas on one map, apart from each other.

At one, make available early war only.
At another, make make available early and mid war only,
At the last, make all available.

eskimo


Do what Eskimo says.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Slash27 on May 07, 2005, 02:53:30 PM
I think it sucks. No Ki-84:mad:
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: ZZ3 on May 07, 2005, 02:54:29 PM
YES
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: killnu on May 07, 2005, 02:59:21 PM
why no ki84?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Slash27 on May 07, 2005, 03:07:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by killnu
why no ki84?


I was being pro Ki-84 killnu:D


 Id say go with eskimo's idea and its perfect.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: killnu on May 07, 2005, 03:49:19 PM
ohhhhhhhhh  i see now.  read it wrong.  :lol
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: humble on May 07, 2005, 04:26:19 PM
Great Idea!
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Simaril on May 07, 2005, 04:26:24 PM
Yes






One more arena, adds lots to the game for those inclined to pure furball, all the time.

Not that there's anything wrong with that......
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Stang on May 07, 2005, 04:29:13 PM
Furballing is evil, everyone knows it does nothing but keep me from getting my reset perks as you guys Quake it up for hours on end.




























Quah!

:D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Elyeh on May 07, 2005, 05:31:49 PM
No Spit V or IV??

what does 1000mph wind mean?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: VWE on May 07, 2005, 05:59:19 PM
It means you fly above 8K and the wind sheer turns your airplane into tooth picks...
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Tumor on May 07, 2005, 06:29:07 PM
keep dreaming
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 07, 2005, 06:29:50 PM
Additions / Changes have been made, please continue input. I like what I see so far, do you?

PS... Widewing knows the most about the history part I would say. If someone could point him here I'd like his input on where to draw the line on: Early, Mid and Late War Aircraft
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: FBRaptor on May 07, 2005, 06:54:11 PM
I like it too. Would be nice to have this option, kinda like fighter town. You guys remember fighter town? Fighter island?
Truck island? :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Krusty on May 07, 2005, 07:10:55 PM
Well there's one problem I see... Regardless of what era (early/mid/late) sometimes a fight just goes up. Sometimes it's fun! I know two pilots that started on the deck in la5/spit9, and ended up at 9k by the time I got to them. It was crazy, but looked amazing. I'd not limit it to 8. 12 to 15k. I say this because I've been running HTH now with wind-limited-ceilings. 10k seems a bit too short. Next step up is 12k.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 07, 2005, 07:27:44 PM
I'd like to see one or more of these off in some lost corner os the MA on a new map. Since you cannot adjust the winds like that for the MA, how about 30K cliffs? If the "bowl" was 3 sectors away from the strategic guys the amount of time and fuel it would take to get out of the bowl should prevent misshuns or strikers to upset the land-grab. That was you could make four of these, one in each corner, early/mid/late/perk bowls :D

I suggest this because I don't think HTC would support an entirely new arena. If it is it's own arena it would resemble the DA somewhat too.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 07, 2005, 08:41:14 PM
you already have it on a smaller scale - CT

and none of you are there

hey .. the grass is greener - over there.... right??
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: killnu on May 07, 2005, 08:57:43 PM
when does CT have all the planes above in it at one time?  with the wind layer at 8k?  (last time there, had to climb to 10k to see most of nme) no gvs?  no puffy ack? no bombers?





oh, and i would love this:aok
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Naytch on May 07, 2005, 09:52:41 PM
Yeah, I like it

Oh, and can we add the P-51B please?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Jackal1 on May 07, 2005, 10:24:15 PM
Not quite clear what you have in mind here.
You suggesting a new arena or what?
Would work good in H2H or as a seperate arena I guess.
Would definitely be a game killer if forced on the players though.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 07, 2005, 10:25:09 PM
Eagler this is so far from CT it's not even funny.

Yes Jackal a new arena, just another "choice".

Waiting on Widewing or somebody to help divide the planes by Early | Mid | Late.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Kwan on May 07, 2005, 10:43:14 PM
Yes ..... I LIKE it ......... as a new arena. :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: FBRaptor on May 07, 2005, 10:44:03 PM
I would think a complete new arena would not be as good as adding it to the cormers of main arena. A new aren you would have to log out and in to get back and forth. Sometimes u may just want to jump to fighter town for a few quickies and then right back to the land grab :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 07, 2005, 10:50:16 PM
One of the things that I like best about this idea is that it promotes furballing; a high ceiling promotes cherry-picking.  We already have a good cherry-picking environment - the MA (and often the CT).  Ideally players should enter the furball without an advantage or disadvantage to those already involved.  

Personally, it is rare I hit 10K in the MA or CT; when I do it’s only because ALL of the visible enemy are higher.  When I hit 10K, I’m usually getting bored and thinking of logging off.  A high ceiling results in a boring climbing contest.  A low ceiling will promote more intense compact fights.  A low ceiling will help the fight more than it will hurt it.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 08, 2005, 12:45:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
Eagler this is so far from CT it's not even funny.


the CT is closer to it than the MA is ... at least there is some type of planeset management there now

great idea - just saying it be easier to set something like that up in CT for a week or two, to test the waters, than to get HT to setup another server


... and use the shorter icon setting as CT now does
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Howitzer on May 08, 2005, 03:01:44 AM
YUP, I love it!  :aok

This is NOT DA or CT either.  You can vulch in those two, which the ack takes care of.  You can pork there which the hardness takes care of.  You can fly at 20k and pick people like a little **** all day which the wind will fix.  Sounds great to me Dipstick!
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Schaden on May 08, 2005, 06:56:35 AM
Why have bases at all, why not just add air starts and unlimited ammo?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Jackal1 on May 08, 2005, 08:37:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick

Yes Jackal a new arena, just another "choice".
 


:aok  Good luck with the Coad man. :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 08, 2005, 09:58:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Schaden
Why have bases at all, why not just add air starts and unlimited ammo?

By that comment I assume you are equating the desire to have a place where dogfighting can take place without interference from toolshedders to an aerial game of quake. I'm going to also assume you are being purely sarcastic and will only answer "no" to your question.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: GooseAW on May 08, 2005, 10:52:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Do what Eskimo says.


I think that's what he did/said....?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 08, 2005, 01:48:02 PM
Eskimo’s suggestion for plane categorization; based on:
MA K/D, Top deck speed & climb rate, Turn rate, Armament, & Year of deployment.
Emphasis placed on overall performance and MA K/D.
Note that dive bombers with minimal stinger guns are included (Why not?).

Discuss:

Early War Planes
A6M2
Bf 109E-4
C.202
D3A1
Hurricane IID
Hurricane Mk I
Ju 87D-3      
P-40B
SBD-5          
Spitfire Mk IA

Mid War Planes
A6M5b
Bf 109F-4  
Bf 109G-2  
Bf 109G-6  
Bf 110C-4b  
Bf 110G-2      
C.205
F4F-4
F4U-1
F4U-1D
F6F-5
FM2
Fw 190A-8      
Fw 190A-5      
Fw 190F-8      
Hurricane IIC
Il-2 Type 3
Ki-61-I-KAIc
Ki-84-Ia
La-5FN
Mosquito Mk VI
N1K2-J  
P-38J
P-38L
P-40E  
P-47D-11  
P-47D-25  
P-51B          
Seafire IIC
Spitfire Mk IX
Spitfire V
Yak-9T

Late War Planes
Bf 109G-10  
F4U-1C
F4U-4
Fw 190D-9      
La-7
P-47D-30  
P-51D Mustang          
Spitfire Mk XIV
Ta 152H      
Tempest V
Typhoon
Yak-9U

Uber Late War Excluded Planes
Me 163      
Me 262
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Krusty on May 08, 2005, 02:21:05 PM
The following need to be taken from the category they are in and shifted to the next category down.

C.202
C.205
LA5


Trust me. In 1941 setup the 202 dominates. It's more of a mid war plane. The 205 is not as uber as some, but has better power and weapons and is more like a low-end late-war performer.

La5 is just a no-brainer. It's a half step behind the LA7



Also, why can't you duplicate planes? All of early are in mid. All of early and mid are in late. So that late has them all (for those that want to fly the a6m2 vs the chog, for example)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: MOSQ on May 08, 2005, 02:59:58 PM
Eskimo, the Typhoon first flew operational combat missions in 1941.
Nos. 56 and 609 Squadrons based at Duxford began to receive their Typhoons in September 1941.

They were not a late war development  machine.  That was the Tempest.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: ghi on May 08, 2005, 03:25:39 PM
Yes,
cool, but more than half of the players care about bases, war destiny,  for me i like both furballs and bases capture/defence, Furballs are fun but can't just dogfight untill puke.This furball bases, and some GVs bases  TT,sould be out of #s of bases  need for reset ,
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 03:33:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ghi
Yes,
cool, but more than half of the players care about bases, war destiny,  for me i like both furballs and bases capture/defence, Furballs are fun but can't just dogfight untill puke.This furball bases, and some GVs bases  TT,sould be out of #s of bases  need for reset ,

I can understand your point ghi. If you feel like capturing a base, porking, GVing or whatever you could log in the MA.

For those of us who login for a good fight and only have an hour or so, this would be a great option. Don't you think?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 03:37:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
the CT is closer to it than the MA is ... at least there is some type of planeset management there now

great idea - just saying it be easier to set something like that up in CT for a week or two, to test the waters, than to get HT to setup another server

... and use the shorter icon setting as CT now does

I feel the CT has such a bad reputation that nobody would try it there.

I like the icons in MA, not one of the things I'd care to change.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 03:44:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The following need to be taken from the category they are in and shifted to the next category down.

C.202
C.205
LA5


Trust me. In 1941 setup the 202 dominates. It's more of a mid war plane. The 205 is not as uber as some, but has better power and weapons and is more like a low-end late-war performer.

La5 is just a no-brainer. It's a half step behind the LA7



Also, why can't you duplicate planes? All of early are in mid. All of early and mid are in late. So that late has them all (for those that want to fly the a6m2 vs the chog, for example)

Some plane in every area will "dominate" so to speak, there is no way around that. The C.202 has pea shooters as does the P-40B we could go on and on about what plane should go where. I think the way they are is a good start on a) good fights b) good representation for various countries c) fun factor.

This is not going to be another CT. It's not EXACTLY setup for historical matchups, etc... The two countries ingame will not be ie: US vs Germany. Timeframe of aircraft was used at first to help catagorize the planes only.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 03:46:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by FBRaptor
I would think a complete new arena would not be as good as adding it to the cormers of main arena. A new aren you would have to log out and in to get back and forth. Sometimes u may just want to jump to fighter town for a few quickies and then right back to the land grab :D

Sounds good and has been brought up many times. Only problem is griefers. You can't set hardness for a few bases. It only works for the whole arena as far as I know...
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: AKFokerFoder+ on May 08, 2005, 03:54:26 PM
It won't happen, so don't waste your time on this

HT has never shown any intrest in a Fighter Town type of arena.

Just enjoy what we have :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 04:01:54 PM
Thanks Foder. Was hoping an AK (good fights) would come in with something good to say....

Guess I'll just keep waiting. ;)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: -sudz- on May 08, 2005, 04:23:51 PM
I love to fly early war planes.

And People from the C1 field keep on comming over with their uberplanes and killing us. HiTech I have a greate idea, you should set up an areana for just our early war planes? Because I know everyone would then fly the early war planes since they are so much fun.

1 week goes by.

Hitech can you please post a message of the day so more people come over to the early war arena.


1 week goes by.

HiTech can you please close the main arena for a week so more people fly the early war arena.

Funny how some things never change in the 15 years I have been playing and createng WWII flight sims.

HiTech
(On sudz's computer)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 08, 2005, 04:43:15 PM
exactly the reason a test bed could/should be setup on CT

everything but a custom map is ready to go
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 08, 2005, 05:51:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The following need to be taken from the category they are in and shifted to the next category down.

C.202
C.205
LA5

Trust me. In 1941 setup the 202 dominates. It's more of a mid war plane. The 205 is not as uber as some, but has better power and weapons and is more like a low-end late-war performer.

La5 is just a no-brainer. It's a half step behind the LA7

 


202:
The 202 clearly has the flight performance edge on my early war list.  It belongs with the early birds (IMO) because its guns suck.  It takes so much ammo, up-close-and-personal, to down a plane that it’s pathetic.  I just happened to be flying this bird in the MA a couple of days ago and it took tons of hits to do any damage.  I’m doing better in the MA in the P-40b (POS) just because it’s 2x50’s are lethal enough.  I’d trade the 202’s 4 guns for a single 50 with 300 rounds.  In a furball, the 202 either gets an assist, or takes so long to down an enemy that by the time you’ve sawed halfway through a guy’s wing, all of his buddies are on you.

205:
Great bird; rivals the spit IX in flight performance, if not a bit better.  Once again the Italian guns are a factor; while certainly lethal they are not as effective as the Spit’s Hispanos and 50’s.

LA-5
I wouldn’t argue against it being a late war class machine.  It would get eaten alive in the late sector though.

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty

Also, why can't you duplicate planes? All of early are in mid. All of early and mid are in late. So that late has them all (for those that want to fly the a6m2 vs the chog, for example)


I agree, and stated above:

“Put three of those little areas on one map, apart from each other.

At one, make available early war only.
At another, make make available early and mid war only,
At the last, make all available.”

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 08, 2005, 06:07:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MOSQ
Eskimo, the Typhoon first flew operational combat missions in 1941.
Nos. 56 and 609 Squadrons based at Duxford began to receive their Typhoons in September 1941.

They were not a late war development  machine.  That was the Tempest.


370 mph on the deck, nearly 400 mph at 5K, 4 x Hispanos x 140 rounds each.  (Need I say more?)

I think the 4 x Hispano 1b first saw combat in 43, but they kept them in service until the end of the war; regardless:

Anything that can break 350 mph and has 4 x Hispanos needs to duke it out with the late war monsters.  Its way too fast for the mid-war sector.  

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 08, 2005, 06:26:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
I feel the CT has such a bad reputation that nobody would try it there.

I like the icons in MA, not one of the things I'd care to change.

It would stand a much better chance if it had a dedicated arena labeled “Furball”.

However, a lot of ideas come and go.  HTC does not respond to most and actually tries few (percentage wise).  

That being said, if HTC does not respond to this thread and basically say, “Let’s do it.”, I would think running it in the CT would be better than nothing.  If it packed the house then it might make HTC notice and reconsider.  At least with the CT you’ve got CM’s that will most likely give it a whirl.  Heck, if there’s interest, someone might even make a map.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 08, 2005, 06:32:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by -sudz-
I love to fly early war planes.

And People from the C1 field keep on comming over with their uberplanes and killing us. HiTech I have a greate idea, you should set up an areana for just our early war planes? Because I know everyone would then fly the early war planes since they are so much fun.

1 week goes by.

Hitech can you please post a message of the day so more people come over to the early war arena.


1 week goes by.

HiTech can you please close the main arena for a week so more people fly the early war arena.

Funny how some things never change in the 15 years I have been playing and createng WWII flight sims.

HiTech
(On sudz's computer)


(http://furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/DipStick/ds-fa.bmp)

Note the 8K cliffs and the 127 mph downdraft at 8K and above.  Planes will literally “bounce off of the “ceiling”.
No way to fly from 1 sector to another.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Krusty on May 08, 2005, 06:32:57 PM
Eskimo, a few points:

202 has 2x50cal in nose and optional 2x 7mm in wings. I think I get about as many kills in it as in p40B (I don't know, I get lucky in the 202, it flies better and I land better guns solutions, so I get better kills in it with less guns.)

205 has almost hizooka-quality 20mms AND has 2x 50cals as well. About the same package. But don't compare guns to the 1-ping-insta-death-from-any-angle Hispanos. I don't like them as guns. Compare to US M2, to German MG151, to Jap 20mms, etc. They're better than most other guns (save the uber Hispanos). I think the spit9 out performs it engine wise, but it'll give the SpitV a run for its money.

LA5 has almost identical performace specs to the LA7. It can't out run almost every plane in the game like the La7 can, but it's damn fast and it has a nearly identical guns package, turns, climbs, and fights the same. It's DEFINITELY late war, in my book.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 06:37:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
It would stand a much better chance if it had a dedicated arena labeled “Furball”.

However, a lot of ideas come and go.  HTC does not respond to most and actually tries few (percentage wise).  

That being said, if HTC does not respond to this thread and basically say, “Let’s do it.”, I would think running it in the CT would be better than nothing.  If it packed the house then it might make HTC notice and reconsider.  At least with the CT you’ve got CM’s that will most likely give it a whirl.  Heck, if there’s interest, someone might even make a map.

eskimo

Agree trying it in CT would be better than nothing but unless there was a MOTD announcing it in the MA all week I don't think most would take notice of it.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 06:44:24 PM
C.202 has 2 12.7mm and 2 7.7mm, I don't think that would compare to 2 50s damage wise. Could be wrong.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 08, 2005, 07:00:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by -sudz-
I love to fly early war planes.

And People from the C1 field keep on comming over with their uberplanes and killing us. HiTech I have a greate idea, you should set up an areana for just our early war planes? Because I know everyone would then fly the early war planes since they are so much fun.

1 week goes by.

Hitech can you please post a message of the day so more people come over to the early war arena.


1 week goes by.

HiTech can you please close the main arena for a week so more people fly the early war arena.

Funny how some things never change in the 15 years I have been playing and createng WWII flight sims.

HiTech
(On sudz's computer)

HT I appreciate your response. I realize you did not notice the 8K cliffs and 8K wind designed to prevent griefers. Take a close look at the whole setup and post again. You might actually like it. With the traffic the CT has gotten over the years I've been here, I didn't think it would hurt to try something for the furballers. If I was wrong I apologize.

Maybe you'll grow to like the idea. Even I will fly the MA alot, this is just for those nights when the hoardes rule, there's nothing but high buffs everywhere, you only have 30-45mins to fly, etc... If you want to find a good fight with several like-minded folks this will be the arena (hopefully).

I love a good fight with 10-15 planes on each side. Fighting low over the water. I know alot of folks like fighting this way. In the MA we're lucky if we can get a CV close to a base for 1/2 hour or so before it's sunk. Then it's back to square one, looking for 'the fight'.



PS... A couple of good side affects would be dropping the number in the MA a bit. This would improve vox, warping, etc... IMHO. Also it would be good for those who have low end systems. No trees, few objects and the fight will be over water.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Flyboy on May 08, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
If you build it

they will come
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 08, 2005, 08:28:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
If you build it

they will come


that's exactly what they said about the CT

need to pick a time, say early planeset, go to CT admin and ask them to set it up with the smallest map they have available, set your winds and the rest like you propose, advertize like crazy in BBS and MOTD MA and see what happens... I'd be there

numbers can only go up, it would be good for CT
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Kweassa on May 08, 2005, 08:40:55 PM
Quote
Eskimo, the Typhoon first flew operational combat missions in 1941.
Nos. 56 and 609 Squadrons based at Duxford began to receive their Typhoons in September 1941.

They were not a late war development machine. That was the Tempest.



 Our Typhy, if I recall, is the 1944 version, with the structural problems regarding the tail section solved. Trimming the Typh out of high speed dives was forbidden, because the sudden change of attitude when speed decreases, was enough to shatter the tail section off.. or at least I've heard so.

 If our Typhy can't pull Gs higher than 4~6Gs due to fear of tail section falling off.. then perhaps it'd be considered as a 1941 plane.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 09, 2005, 08:25:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
that's exactly what they said about the CT

need to pick a time, say early planeset, go to CT admin and ask them to set it up with the smallest map they have available, set your winds and the rest like you propose, advertize like crazy in BBS and MOTD MA and see what happens... I'd be there

numbers can only go up, it would be good for CT

I'm willing to play this arena, although I fear we'll only see 10-20 folk in it at prime-time, and that it SHOULD be in a corner of the MA. Since we cannot adjust hardness for these bases alone in the MA or do the wind thing, and it will require a new map why not put 30,000 foot mountains around it? If any buff dweeb wants to carry eggs up to 30K and fly a few sectors away simply to ruin other player's enjoyment then I think we'd all like to "meet" them and introduce them on the BBS.

If the consensus is that it belongs only in the CT then we need to move over into that forum and begin campaigning with the CT officers/officials.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 09, 2005, 08:49:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
If the consensus is that it belongs only in the CT then we need to move over into that forum and begin campaigning with the CT officers/officials.


already done...read the last few post in this thread:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150033

it is the fastest way to get a taste of this and see if enough ppl are interested in it for a next possible step/move ... heck it could be running by the weekend!!!

please post in that thread to show them many are interested in the idea
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 09, 2005, 09:06:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150033

it is the fastest way to get a taste of this and see if enough ppl are interested in it for a next possible step/move ... heck it could be running by the weekend!!!

I agree it is the fastest and easiest way for the test. We must be careful not to move too fast, we need a critical mass for numbers first. Doing the beta testing in the CT as a gauge of popularity makes sense, we'll want a MOTD to go with it and announce it about a week in advance.

Long term I still beleive we should put these into the MA.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 09, 2005, 09:22:15 AM
Don't take away my arena just to test this out! :)

Why not use the DA? Sounds more suited for it anyway.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Ecliptik on May 09, 2005, 10:56:01 AM
8K altitude limit?  So, you'd effectively gimp all fighters that have advantages when fighting at alt and make this arena a festival of low-speed TnB fighting in the weeds?  Ok, whatever, but you'd make half the planeset ineffective because they couldn't compete with the low-alt turners.  To make this a proper fighter arena you'd have to make those cliffs 30k high and add a few new areas with medium-alt and high-alt bases or air spawns for the 152s, Spit XIVs, P-51Ds, F4Us and so on.   People rarely fight at 20k in the MA because no one wants to waste the time climbing that high.  Take away the climb time and you can set up some interesting fights that you never see in the MA (such as a Ta-152 actually being effective at something!).

In the end the DA is good enough... you're just adding big walls to segregate the fights.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Elfie on May 09, 2005, 01:12:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
It won't happen, so don't waste your time on this

HT has never shown any intrest in a Fighter Town type of arena.

Just enjoy what we have :)


Dipstick, Foder is right on this one. In fact HiTech popped into one thread and said Fighter Town was a bad idea :( Dunno why he thinks it is a bad idea, Fighter Town in AirWarrior was loads of fun for lots of people.


I personally would prefer to see the *bowls* in the MA. *Bowls* in the MA would probably see alot more use than a separate arena would.

If this were to happen, I say make the cliffs 50k around the bowls. That way fun nazi-toolshedders cant bring in buff formations to kill all the fighter hangers to *force* the furballers to help with the real estate deals. :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 09, 2005, 02:37:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by plank
Don't take away my arena just to test this out! :)

Why not use the DA? Sounds more suited for it anyway.


you can't control the settings in the DA can you?

don't worry, no one is taking the JG54 playground away, just want to borrow it for a week :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 09, 2005, 04:17:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
you can't control the settings in the DA can you?

don't worry, no one is taking the JG54 playground away, just want to borrow it for a week :)


I don't know about changing settings in the DA, can't see why not this idea just seems far more suited for that. In fact, this idea just sounds like a modified DA; I see no reason not to use that as the lab rat.

And I'll let that rotten bait just sit there, I'm not biting :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 09, 2005, 04:20:44 PM
take CT away?

what r u talking about?

it would just be different planes  -  and more fun with more ppl who would come back with a regular ct setup "historic"

it's a win-win
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 09, 2005, 04:21:56 PM
Edited too fast for ya :p
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 09, 2005, 04:23:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
take CT away?

what r u talking about?

it would just be different planes  -  and more fun with more ppl who would come back with a regular ct setup "historic"

it's a win-win


My main gripe about it is, like the MA, it will have that alternate universe feel to it. With every plane from every country fighting every plane from every country. P51's vs P51's. 109's vs 109's. I just can't get into that type of play. I enjoy the realism and realistic settings which is why I fly the CT. Not exactly win-win from my persepective.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: straffo on May 09, 2005, 04:33:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
370 mph on the deck, nearly 400 mph at 5K, 4 x Hispanos x 140 rounds each.  (Need I say more?)

You want the 12 X 0.303 instead ? :)

Quote
I think the 4 x Hispano 1b first saw combat in 43, but they kept them in service until the end of the war; regardless:[/B]


42 I think.
Quote

Anything that can break 350 mph and has 4 x Hispanos needs to duke it out with the late war monsters.  Its way too fast for the mid-war sector.  

eskimo [/B]

certainly
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Lye-El on May 09, 2005, 04:38:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
I'm willing to play this arena, although I fear we'll only see 10-20 folk in it at prime-time,


 If any buff dweeb wants to carry eggs up to 30K and fly a few sectors away simply to ruin other player's enjoyment then I think we'd all like to "meet" them and introduce them on the BBS.

 


Would they get extra points/perks?  :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: straffo on May 09, 2005, 04:39:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Our Typhy, if I recall, is the 1944 version, with the structural problems regarding the tail section solved. Trimming the Typh out of high speed dives was forbidden, because the sudden change of attitude when speed decreases, was enough to shatter the tail section off.. or at least I've heard so.

 If our Typhy can't pull Gs higher than 4~6Gs due to fear of tail section falling off.. then perhaps it'd be considered as a 1941 plane.


The tail section story is not that simple unfortunatly... for example of 2 typhoon of the same produced batch one can dive like hell when the other will loose it's tail in a shallow dive...

There was 36 documented failure on the tail section that's not a huge number considering the typhoon was rushed on the front line.
The reliability of the Sabre engine was major problem ,more than the tail section by the way.


(I hope this post is in English cause I'm heading to bed completly tired :D)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 09, 2005, 04:41:49 PM
Just change the name of the "DA" to "FA" and be done with it.  It seems like if there was this huge interest in fighters only, there would already be plenty of people over there hanging out furballing away.  Just don't see whats stopping them now.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 09, 2005, 05:12:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by plank
My main gripe about it is, like the MA, it will have that alternate universe feel to it. With every plane from every country fighting every plane from every country. P51's vs P51's. 109's vs 109's. I just can't get into that type of play. I enjoy the realism and realistic settings which is why I fly the CT. Not exactly win-win from my persepective.


This is what I like about the CT as well.  However, sometimes the CT is empty or sometimes the bases are just too far apart to make it any fun.  During these times the MA is usually more fun than killing buildings in the CT.  Sometimes I fly in the MA just because I want to fly a particular plane or I want to clobber some easy meat.  Regardless, I think the Furball arena sounds like it would be more fun than the MA.  If the CT needs to be used for a week or two to get a Furball arena rolling, I’m all for it.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 09, 2005, 05:19:04 PM
One more thought on the map:

I think the Early War sector bases should be 8 miles apart, the Mid War sector bases should be 10 miles apart and the Late War sector bases should be 12 miles apart.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 09, 2005, 05:23:34 PM
One more thought from me as well. If each opposing base only had axis/ijn planes and the other only allied enabled I would be a lot more in favor of this idea. If we want mathmatically fair fights with identical planes, after all, we have the DA.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 09, 2005, 05:27:55 PM
A thought on the Furball arena sharing the DA arena:

With the 3 Furball sectors isolated from each other and not taking up much space, there certainly would be room for an isolated dueling sector.  It already has the no scores thing going for it.  The only problem that I see is how to put an 8k ceiling on the furballs, but not over the dueling area.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 09, 2005, 05:49:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by plank
One more thought from me as well. If each opposing base only had axis/ijn planes and the other only allied enabled I would be a lot more in favor of this idea. If we want mathmatically fair fights with identical planes, after all, we have the DA.


The reason why I’ve never ventured into the DA is because I’m too impatient.  When I want to fly, I want to fly.  I don’t want to arrange to meet someone, discuss planes, loadout, area and alt, and then fly to fight one guy.  Even if you win, there’s nothing to do, you’re all alone.  When I enter an arena, I want to fight and kill often.  I see the appeal of the DA; I just have too little time, too little to prove and am way too impatient to want to play there.

The Furball arena on the other hand will be the fastest and furyest fight in town, hands down.  No boredom, no watchin a TV show while en-route, no pee breaks while on auto-pilot.  It’ll be pure sweaty-palms, cold-feet, non-stop fighting.  It will be nothing like the DA.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 09, 2005, 05:56:00 PM
A “Buff Trolling” sector might be fun as well.  Basically it would be a section with all planes enabled and 4k bases.   Those who like to man buff guns or kill buffs could also get some quick action.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Jackal1 on May 10, 2005, 09:53:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by -sudz-
I love to fly early war planes.

And People from the C1 field keep on comming over with their uberplanes and killing us. HiTech I have a greate idea, you should set up an areana for just our early war planes? Because I know everyone would then fly the early war planes since they are so much fun.

1 week goes by.

Hitech can you please post a message of the day so more people come over to the early war arena.


1 week goes by.

HiTech can you please close the main arena for a week so more people fly the early war arena.

Funny how some things never change in the 15 years I have been playing and createng WWII flight sims.

HiTech
(On sudz's computer)


HT. I believe you have been asked not to come in here with those pesky facts and experience to clutter up this board before.
  Consider this your final warning Mr. :D



Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Ecliptik on May 10, 2005, 10:28:51 AM
That post had way too much punctuation and not nearly enough spelling mistakes to be a real Hitech post. :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 11:22:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Ecliptik
That post had way too much punctuation and not nearly enough spelling mistakes to be a real Hitech post. :D


Sudz, being the new guy, probly has a functioning keyboard.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 11:26:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by eskimo2
The reason why I’ve never ventured into the DA is because I’m too impatient.  When I want to fly, I want to fly.  I don’t want to arrange to meet someone, discuss planes, loadout, area and alt, and then fly to fight one guy.  Even if you win, there’s nothing to do, you’re all alone.  When I enter an arena, I want to fight and kill often.  I see the appeal of the DA; I just have too little time, too little to prove and am way too impatient to want to play there.

The Furball arena on the other hand will be the fastest and furyest fight in town, hands down.  No boredom, no watchin a TV show while en-route, no pee breaks while on auto-pilot.  It’ll be pure sweaty-palms, cold-feet, non-stop fighting.  It will be nothing like the DA.

eskimo


But the DA is already set up perfectly for this never ending furball stuff. Apparently all it needs is a name change and everyone will flock to it.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: plank on May 10, 2005, 11:48:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
But the DA is already set up perfectly for this never ending furball stuff. Apparently all it needs is a name change and everyone will flock to it.


Exactly, sounds like it just needs a map in addition to that for all the proposed changes. I'm sure the wind settings can be adjusted by someone, even if it's HT.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Schaden on May 10, 2005, 11:50:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
But the DA is already set up perfectly for this never ending furball stuff. Apparently all it needs is a name change and everyone will flock to it.


Sarcasm (whilst funny) is often referred to as the lowest form of wit.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: jodgi on May 10, 2005, 12:22:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Schaden
Sarcasm (whilst funny) is often referred to as the lowest form of wit.


I hold it in high regard.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: jodgi on May 10, 2005, 12:29:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
C.202 has 2 12.7mm and 2 7.7mm, I don't think that would compare to 2 50s damage wise. Could be wrong.


While not the same, 12.7mm and .50 cals is about the same. I've heard a military guy say that 12.7mm is a bit bigger compared to .50 cals.

I can't confirm this.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Clifra Jones on May 10, 2005, 12:35:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
But the DA is already set up perfectly for this never ending furball stuff. Apparently all it needs is a name change and everyone will flock to it.


You miss a few salient points.

1. The DA has friendly fire enabled.
2. The DA cannot be modified per DipSticks specifications
3. The DA does not have plane sets restricted to certain bases.

So, I thing perfect is an incorrect ass-umption.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Overlag on May 10, 2005, 12:37:29 PM
why does the furball have to be under 8k?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 10, 2005, 01:08:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
why does the furball have to be under 8k?


I'l answer assuming it was an honest question...

I would say make the late war FA into a 10K or so myself but the reason is that the worst part of being a furballer in the MA is that no matter how much E you retain there will be guys coming in REALLY high sooner or later to cherry you. The worst are when the two high guys show up in a 2-plane combo like Dora and Hurri-IIC, if you run...errr...extend then the Dora will run you down, if you stall fight him the Hurri burns you (even if you fight him well the Dorka come screaming in at 450+ over and over.

With an 8K ceiling they'll still have a big advantage on you down at 1-2K but not as much of one and you should stand a greater chance of turning the tables than if they had a 10+K perch.

As long as the bases are close together and the numbers are high enough we should be able to stabilize that effect since "our" side will have folks coming in at that alt to keep the pickers worried about too.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Krusty on May 10, 2005, 01:09:18 PM
Straffo, it was pretty bad. One pilot account says that a flight of new typhoons dove in on some enemies, and 3 of them lost their tails and died. 3 in one attack. That's pretty damn bad.

There was another acount where a pilot was learning to fly the Typhoon, made too fast a dive, and literally ripped off something underneath the airframe... Couldn't slow down below 200. Made for a hairy (AND scary) series of landing attempts. Ripped off a plate of skin underneath the belly or some such thing.

The plane was a widowmaker, through and through.


EDIT: Re: 202/205 12.7mm they are about the same as 50cal, yes. 12.7mm is roughly half an inch (the 13mm the Germans had is closer, though)

EDIT2: Think about it, 1 inch is 2.6cm (26mm)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Overlag on May 10, 2005, 01:15:59 PM
that wasnt really the question edbert...

the point is why does a furball need to be at 1-2k as you describe?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 10, 2005, 01:23:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
that wasnt really the question edbert...

the point is why does a furball need to be at 1-2k as you describe?


Ahhh...well, I not sure they do NEED to be there, but in my experience turnfights tend to get lower, the climbing fight is a thing of rarity in my experience in a 1v1 environment. In a true furball they seem to stabilize at 1 to 5K from what i've seen, the ones that come in at 10-15K will merely B&Z a few times until they expend their E then they go way and grab. They are not what we call furballers and would not be able to do that with 1,000mph winds at 8K :D
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Mister Fork on May 10, 2005, 01:34:30 PM
Dipstick - what is the goal of the Fighter Arena that is not covered (or could be) in the historical Combat Theatre?

Curious...
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: straffo on May 10, 2005, 02:02:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jodgi
While not the same, 12.7mm and .50 cals is about the same. I've heard a military guy say that 12.7mm is a bit bigger compared to .50 cals.

I can't confirm this.


:rofl

Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Straffo, it was pretty bad. One pilot account says that a flight of new typhoons dove in on some enemies, and 3 of them lost their tails and died. 3 in one attack. That's pretty damn bad.

There was another acount where a pilot was learning to fly the Typhoon, made too fast a dive, and literally ripped off something underneath the airframe... Couldn't slow down below 200. Made for a hairy (AND scary) series of landing attempts. Ripped off a plate of skin underneath the belly or some such thing..


Early 109F had also the bad abit to lose their tail section :)

For a Typhoon pilot Flack was more dangerous than the tail section.
I don't negate the weakness of the tail but it was not enought to ground the plane.
Quote
The plane was a widowmaker, through and through.[/B]


Say this to Roland Beamont or Stapleton or any 56sqd Pilot :)


Quote
EDIT: Re: 202/205 12.7mm they are about the same as 50cal, yes. 12.7mm is roughly half an inch (the 13mm the Germans had is closer, though)

EDIT2: Think about it, 1 inch is 2.6cm (26mm) [/B]


12.7 is exactly what you call 0.50 :)
0.5 inch = 1.27 centimeter
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 02:03:09 PM
Hey Schad and Clif, kiss my SarcASStic  
you know what.

Most of the necessary elements are there in DA. I think HT's already pretty much said he's not going to create a new arena for the furballers thing more than once.  Geez, if you guys want this so bad, go do it already. Maybe if you got enough people doing it, you could convince HT to build you a custom arena for it. Otherwise, I don't think it's going to fly (pun intended).

If people log on and see that there is 30 people in the DA  furballing vs. 450 in the MA doing regular stuff, you would probably get some interest going.  So go do it already.

And so whats wrong with friendly fire in the furball? Too realistic?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 10, 2005, 04:12:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Dipstick - what is the goal of the Fighter Arena that is not covered (or could be) in the historical Combat Theatre?

Curious...

That would be ACTUAL fighting / alot and in a short amount of time. Not having to climb to 10-15k + to find a horde of 190s waiting for your jug. To not have to waste ammo / chase bombers and 190s, etc... ad nauseum. Not having GVs and puffy ack to deal with. A better plane selection depending on YOUR choice at the time. And so on and so on...
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 10, 2005, 04:19:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
Hey Schad and Clif, kiss my SarcASStic  
you know what.

Most of the necessary elements are there in DA. I think HT's already pretty much said he's not going to create a new arena for the furballers thing more than once.  Geez, if you guys want this so bad, go do it already. Maybe if you got enough people doing it, you could convince HT to build you a custom arena for it. Otherwise, I don't think it's going to fly (pun intended).

If people log on and see that there is 30 people in the DA  furballing vs. 450 in the MA doing regular stuff, you would probably get some interest going.  So go do it already.

And so whats wrong with friendly fire in the furball? Too realistic?

Well for about a week or so I've seen anywhere from 30 to 45 in the DA during US primetime. Altho since the DA is / would NOT be the same as FA it's really a moot point to discuss anyway.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 04:35:21 PM
At one time? I will pop over to the DA when I log on if there are 10 or so just to see whats going on, if it's a squad I know messing around I'll ask if I can join them for a while, but usually it's just 2 or so people in there.  I've never seen 30-45 people in there at once.

It seems that enough have expressed an interest in this, pick a day and a time, preferably where east coast and west coast can both get on and lets do it.  I like to furball and enough good sticks have shown interest to make it fun, I'll be there.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Clifra Jones on May 10, 2005, 04:35:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by kj714
Hey Schad and Clif, kiss my SarcASStic  
you know what.

Most of the necessary elements are there in DA. I think HT's already pretty much said he's not going to create a new arena for the furballers thing more than once.  Geez, if you guys want this so bad, go do it already. Maybe if you got enough people doing it, you could convince HT to build you a custom arena for it. Otherwise, I don't think it's going to fly (pun intended).

If people log on and see that there is 30 people in the DA  furballing vs. 450 in the MA doing regular stuff, you would probably get some interest going.  So go do it already.

And so whats wrong with friendly fire in the furball? Too realistic?


Yes, the chances of a new arena are not good. My feeling is that it will never be done. With that said though:

30 people in the DA does not mean 30 people furballing. It may be 5 furballing at a base, 7 training at another and 10 furballing a another and 8 practicing bombing at another.

Not what I'd call a FA.

As far as friendly fire. It would be disabled for the same reason it is disabled in the MA. So that the pissing contests don't get out of hand. Can you imaging what happens if someone starts accusing another of kill stealing? Or some moronic uberdweeb decides he's going or go into the FA and start studmuffinging people for fun.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 04:39:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Yes, the chances of a new arena are not good. My feeling is that it will never be done. With that said though:

30 people in the DA does not mean 30 people furballing. It may be 5 furballing at a base, 7 training at another and 10 furballing a another and 8 practicing bombing at another.

Not what I'd call a FA.

As far as friendly fire. It would be disabled for the same reason it is disabled in the MA. So that the pissing contests don't get out of hand. Can you imaging what happens if someone starts accusing another of kill stealing? Or some moronic uberdweeb decides he's going or go into the FA and start studmuffinging people for fun.


But the furball people would be elite enough that wouldn't  happen, honor and all that. Not like the unwashed masses of the MA.  :) Seriously, that could be dealt with easily enough. Not a show stopper.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 04:47:16 PM
Maybe we could get some squad commitments? I can probably get some DF's there like Racrx, Tactic, Spazzter, Cobrakev, B1RD, Guano, Duchess for awhile anyway. Those are our players who  are on pretty much every night.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: XrightyX on May 10, 2005, 05:36:39 PM
Yes.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 10, 2005, 06:36:16 PM
I don't presume to speak for the BKs, but knowing our penchant for furballing I'd say most of us would make a showing.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Kweassa on May 10, 2005, 06:43:20 PM
I don't object to a Fighter Arena..

 ..but my opinion is whatever needs to make gameplay better, should be focused on the MA, and whatever changes should be centered on making the MA more fun, not ripping it apart.

 IMO, many vets and experienced players are disgusted and tired of 'doing things by the book' not making a single dent in gameplay, whereas 'dweebism' pays off major dividends.

 This whole discussions sorta feels like "federationists" vs "separatists" :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 10, 2005, 07:08:55 PM
Well, since Dipstick started this thread, if enough people want to do it, I think the BK's oughta call it.

Kweassa, I think it would probably only be a now and then thing, or maybe one night a week if it caught on, no ripping apart of MA required.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: eskimo2 on May 10, 2005, 07:09:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
I don't object to a Fighter Arena..

 ..but my opinion is whatever needs to make gameplay better, should be focused on the MA, and whatever changes should be centered on making the MA more fun, not ripping it apart.

 IMO, many vets and experienced players are disgusted and tired of 'doing things by the book' not making a single dent in gameplay, whereas 'dweebism' pays off major dividends.

 This whole discussions sorta feels like "federationists" vs "separatists" :)


"Better" is relative.  To many, the FA would be better, to the majority, the MA would still be where its at.  The things being asked for in the FA will please only some; they would ruin the MA however.  There are plenty of players that just want some faster action.  They are, at least at times, willing to chuck the "battle for land" and variety that can be found in the MA for a simple intense brawl.

eskimo
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Kweassa on May 10, 2005, 07:59:13 PM
Quote
"Better" is relative. To many, the FA would be better, to the majority, the MA would still be where its at. The things being asked for in the FA will please only some; they would ruin the MA however. There are plenty of players that just want some faster action. They are, at least at times, willing to chuck the "battle for land" and variety that can be found in the MA for a simple intense brawl.


 Could be.

 But I'm not entirely sure a FA would be really 'better for many', because seeing how the MA operates, and how the people in the MA react, I'm guessing that the popularity of the MA comes from the fact that it is an integrated arena of sea, land, and air.

 Sorry for the long post, but this is what I think about the issue;


*People more seriously oriented to A2A fights do not really care about the land-grab aspect of the MA. They probably care only as much as it would help secure, undamaged bases to up planes in, and hold a stable ground to ensure consistent A2A combat. However, the more time I spend with AH and the MA, the more I'm driven to think these 'A2A folk' are a dying breed in the MA.

 Most of the MA folk like the MA because the fact that there is much to enjoy in a single platform. Most of these guys are barely average in A2A skills alone(barely average in EVERYTHING, for that matter).. and yet, they still can find a purpose and feel needed by the team.

* They like the competition, and they like how they can become a part of something bigger. They may be sucky pilots, but when they move with the horde, they become a valauble asset in providing the main strength of the horde - numbers, literally. If fighting A2A is much too hard for them, then they can always up a Osty or M16 and park on the field, and shoot at the attacking enemies. Or, they could go to the CV and up PTs to scout the area, or up LVTs to help capture.. or they could up bombers and spray bombs on the enemy field.. etc etc.

 Up with a horde and look around you - 90% of your team mates in that sector will probably die out within the next 15 minutes. Up in GVs and 90% of your friendly GVs will be busted as they reach enemy base perimeters. These average guys, are what consist the MA. Despite the fact that they are only average, they consist a part of a bigger force that ultimately captures bases and wins territories.


* Now, imagine a fighter arena. No doubt some of the better pilots and prestigious squads will have a smashing time in it. But would the rest of the MA-folk want to go there? Every time they up in the FA, they will be shot down like flies. They will die again and again, same as in the MA, but this time, they have no purpose to do so. It doesn't help with any strat or tactical maneuver because there aren't any in the FA. As soon as they realize the A2A competition is much more intense than the MA, and they can't cope with it(unless they become an ace pilot themselves), they will be faced with a choice;

1) stay in the FA, keep facing the humiliation and frustration of being shot down again and again.. and then become a good pilot

2) return to the MA. They are sucky pilots, GVers, gunners and etc etc.. but at least in the MA, they are a part of something and have a purpose to fight and die. They will feel good, if their feeble attempts somehow payoff and kill the last remaining FH or townbuilding, and your team mates get the capture. And etc etc..


 
* The point is, the very fact that there is much going on at the same time, is what keeps people in the MA. AH is undoubtably an flight sim game, but not all of AHers are A2A purists. In fact, most of AHers are people who enjoy the universal combat that resembles WW2 action in some way - air, sea, and land.

 So, if the FA opens, will people go there?

 My guess is, all of the people who were bored with the MA will go to the FA. Just like all of the people who were bored with the MA, and thought the CT would be an alternative, showed themselves in the CT.

 But after one or two years, soon they will realize they will only meet the same people again and again in the FA. Under the same circumstances again and again.. even the greatest of A2A enthusiasts won't stand for fighting in the same arena, same conditions, against same enemy pilots again and again. It's basically the same thing as flying in a boxed-game multiplayer session.

 
* The MA is not fun for many A2A enthusiasts because it lost its balance. And I believe the MA still can be made more fun - retain all of its good points, and still provide a good and intense A2A fight, and regulate the lameness and dweebism that ruins gameplay for many.

 IMO, ultimately, a FA is gonna hurt AH, more than anything else.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Schaden on May 11, 2005, 06:02:40 AM
The MA works because it's game play gives  a reason  or a point tot he whole experience - the FA will simply resemble an artificial, non historical, gamey place for a few to practice what they feel is the pinnacle of the AH experience.

Reducing the fuel burn to allow the absolute minimum of fuel to be carried - well why not have it as zero so you don't need any fuel and why land at fields, since it doesn't matter about score why have fields at all?? Just give everyone a 5k air start with unlimited ammo - you won't have to worry about ack over bases or landing to rearm and refuel.

IL2 FB - a game which I enjoy for it's flight modelling and eye candy fails hopelessly ( for me) as a multiplayer game - the reason - there's no point to it all, up a plane, kill die, kill die, kill die or maybe kill kill then die oh wow the excitement of it all - but there's no bigger objective to the whole process so is about as interesting as watching paint dry.

Fighter Ace used to have a room like this - acm only, no ground war bastardized flight model to make it easier to acm, make it easier for newbies to "fly" and get some kills - we used to call it the crayon room and btw Fighter Ace are about to go out of business.

Roll on TOD and whilst there are things I don't like about the MA I find enough fun to keep subbing, if I want to go hunting for kills I can, if I want a base capture or defend a base or work with people for a common goal I can.

In the version described the FA will have gang banging on a huge  scale as soon as a squad logs on - you can't evade by alt or speed so the bottom feeders will eventually kill you, the ack running with higher ack values is going to have to be seen to be believed and no newbies are going to last longer than about a minute - so they'll be back to the MA after being killed for the 10th time by some preening "ace" or be put off by the whole experience and go and find another game.

I'm not however saying don't set up the CT for a week as FA, just be careful what you wish for.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Redd on May 11, 2005, 08:46:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 IMO, ultimately, a FA is gonna hurt AH, more than anything else.



You're doing too much deep thunking


People try it  - they don't like it  , they go back to MA .

People try it - they like it , they stay there.

People try it , they lke it a little , they alternate between FA and MA.


Not sure how any of that is bad for AH.  Can't see why anyone would can an idea that is totally optional , and has no negative affect on the existing player base.  is 's like saying please remove the DA bcause I don't want to  use it, therefore no-one should use it.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Eagler on May 11, 2005, 08:58:24 AM
it would probably be the most populated week in CT if it were introduced as another scenario in there

I think CT was created just for this - a player controlled arena for diversity, experimentation and fun

the fact that is has evolved into a totally "historic" room has not done anything for it but limited it's participation.

mixing it up a little will bring much needed life to the entire CT concept, not kill it or hurt the MA
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on May 11, 2005, 09:16:45 AM
Thanks for all the responses. Sounded like fun. Would be another choice. HT crapped on it. I have enough to worry about in real life. I'm done with it.

If gameplay remains sucky in MA (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149730) or even gets worse which is barely possible, I will join those who have quit for the very same reason.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: pellik on May 11, 2005, 12:41:15 PM
What a lot of you guys missed when you keep talking about MA gameplay being dependent on having all of those precious options of yours is that those of us who want to furball are directly opposed by those very options.

I break the MA down into four major groups when I fly, and judge who to kill first accordingly. First there are the furballers. These are the guys who want to TnB and fight above all else. They are by far the most fun to fight, and this group includes most of the aces in the game.

Second there are the cherry hunters. These are guys who usually want to aspire to furballers, but lack the confidence necessary to turn fight. There is a lot of cross-over between these two groups, as many good pilots pick and some good pickers can turn. The difference is in whether they trust their abilities and press an attack or back off and follow you around for 10min in a fight waiting for you to become distracted killing their friends. If you pick me using the later method you can bet I'm gonna come back and pick you, and if you're my first target there is very little chance of you ever catching me off guard as I'll hit tab and put a big red box around your plane.

The third group are the GV furballers and the milk runners. I group them togeather because they both have about the same impact upon my game -- they are content to play with each other and they are usually fun to chat with on vox.

Finally are the fun police. These are the guys who, under the excuse of "winning the war", set out on a mission to end whatever fun other people may be having. If a set of bombers knocks out FHs at a field that is undefended, they are milkrunners. They fly in at 20k or sneak in otd to destroy FHs at a field sporting a furball, or knock out the VHs at tank town. These are the guys I'll drop everything to kill. Sure I'll probably get jumped by the horde after I dive to the deck to pick em, but they deserve it and I don't value my K/D. This group of people need to be restricted, but always get the loudest defenders on the forums. The furballers get screwed because these guys hit FHs at every fight that goes for more then 10min. The pickers get screwed by this as well, because when the hordes dissipate they have to fight fair. The GVers get screwed when the VHs at tank town get taken out, whether it's theirs or their opponents. The milk-runners get screwed as when the furball gets broken up all those fighters spread out to the rest of the front and can't find anything else to kill. I put these guys in the same category as xmarine who bails out of his plane early because he thinks it pisses the other guy off. They are the guys who kill all their teammates at the beginning of a round of coutnerstrike.

-p.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: AKFokerFoder+ on May 11, 2005, 12:58:50 PM
I don't know how many of you ever played Red Baron 3D.

They had free for all arenas.  The FFA arenas were mindless furballs.  Everyone could shoot everyone else, you all took off from the same base.  I could get a 100 kills in a night.  

Mindless, intense furballing, almost instant action.  And the arenas were packed during prime time.

It was the most fun you could have sitting down.  Well... pretty close to the most fun anyways.

I participated in the Great Wars, and squad events.  But for pure fun, the FFA were my favorites.  Second were the arenas where the airfields were close and you flew on one of two sides.

Red Baron died from two things.  One was that the graphics were based on Glide, (not Open Glide).  Thus when Nividia bought out 3DFX and trashed the whole Voodoo chipset video cards, there were no video cards that ran Glide natively.  And any glide wrappers you tried gave marginal performance,  tearing etc.

The second thing was that almost after they released Red Baron 3D, Sierra dropped the game, so there was no support and there were some serious flaws in the damage model.

But the game lived on for years in spite of the problems.

And it stayed so long partially because of the FFA arenas were so much fun.

Red Baron didn't die because it offered some of it's customer base a purely fun place to play.  A place where there was no objective other than to just let it all hang out.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Elfie on May 11, 2005, 01:31:04 PM
Foder, there were always people at the Fighter Town atol in the Big Pac arena in AirWarrior as well. It was fast action and a total riot.

Then when they made an actual Fighter Town arena that place was ALWAYS busy during prime time.

HiTech has never really given any reasons why (that I know of) he wont give us "Deathstars" (which were a riot as well) or a Fighter Town area. It seems like if it was fun in another game then no, you can't have it.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Schaden on May 11, 2005, 02:20:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
I don't know how many of you ever played Red Baron 3D.

They had free for all arenas.  The FFA arenas were mindless furballs.  Everyone could shoot everyone else, you all took off from the same base.  I could get a 100 kills in a night.  

Mindless, intense furballing, almost instant action.  And the arenas were packed during prime time.

It was the most fun you could have sitting down.  Well... pretty close to the most fun anyways.

I participated in the Great Wars, and squad events.  But for pure fun, the FFA were my favorites.  Second were the arenas where the airfields were close and you flew on one of two sides.

Red Baron died from two things.  One was that the graphics were based on Glide, (not Open Glide).  Thus when Nividia bought out 3DFX and trashed the whole Voodoo chipset video cards, there were no video cards that ran Glide natively.  And any glide wrappers you tried gave marginal performance,  tearing etc.

The second thing was that almost after they released Red Baron 3D, Sierra dropped the game, so there was no support and there were some serious flaws in the damage model.

But the game lived on for years in spite of the problems.

And it stayed so long partially because of the FFA arenas were so much fun.

Red Baron didn't die because it offered some of it's customer base a purely fun place to play.  A place where there was no objective other than to just let it all hang out.


BS I played RB for a couple of years and the objective was to destroy all the enemy fields (by destroying hangars) and thereby getting a reset.....or didn't you notice that part of the game play?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Edbert1 on May 11, 2005, 02:43:57 PM
Wow! This thread turned pretty dang intelligent there for a minute. WTF?

Quote
Originally posted by Schaden
The MA works because it's game play gives  a reason  or a point tot he whole experience - the FA will simply resemble an artificial, non historical, gamey place for a few to practice what they feel is the pinnacle of the AH experience.
 

That is sig material righ there. The MA by your argument then does NOT represent "an artificial, non historical, gamey place"? What point can there be in striving to win something that can never be won (the "war")? There's no reset counter that I know of. What does the winning side get, 10 perkies, or the equal of two kills in a mediocre plane or one in a crappy one? I'd bet 30-50% of the winning side doesn;t get squat since they all changed sides within a few hours of the reset anyhow!

LMFAO!
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: kj714 on May 11, 2005, 03:09:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Wow! This thread turned pretty dang intelligent there for a minute. WTF?

 
That is sig material righ there. The MA by your argument then does NOT represent "an artificial, non historical, gamey place"? What point can there be in striving to win something that can never be won (the "war")? There's no reset counter that I know of. What does the winning side get, 10 perkies, or the equal of two kills in a mediocre plane or one in a crappy one? I'd bet 30-50% of the winning side doesn;t get squat since they all changed sides within a few hours of the reset anyhow!

LMFAO!


I think what Schad is saying is that sometimes people only want the immediate gratification of the Quake experience.  The expanded gameplay of the MA is also desirable sometimes. I think people would probably move in and out of each area fluidly and it wouldn't be a problem for either arena.

But the bottom line is HT isn't going to make an FA. He's got his reasons, and from what I've seen him sya in the past about this and other subjects, HT's positions are usually pretty well thought out and reasonable. If we want one we have to make do with what we've got.  If enough people would use the DA or CT for this purpose, proving it was a fun, MARKETABLE, non-detrimental alternative to the MA, maybe we'd get a  dedicated FA. It's definitely a case of come and maybe they'll build it, not the other way around.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Mugzeee on July 03, 2005, 04:05:48 PM
I as well as others have requested a Fighter only Arena several times http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=119757&referrerid=7566

Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
Think he just left out the "if it were used" part.

I'm pretty sure HTC knows what he is doing and doesn't require your advice. The CT is exclusively for certain (historical) plane matchups, it suffers from a limited planeset, the DA is for practice period. The MA is where the most targets can be found so naturally fighters will go there.

We attempt to create good furballs in the MA between bases in close proximity or CV to bases as the case may be. All the 'war winning' stuff is ignored.

Plain and simple I doubt HT wants to split up the players as you suggest (although I don't and wouldn't try to speak for him). The beauty of this game is the large amount of players in one arena and the fact that it works well as far as lag, text chat, voice, etc... goes. IMHO.

In closing, put me down for a NO vote.

You know the funny part of it all?
The fact that DipStick suggested an idea that he not so long ago was clearly against when i suggested it. Of course i didnt make a cool looking Map and all dat stuff. But all the same...I dont care about the details...I Just would love to see one for the reasons you and others have presented. In closing. Put me down as a YES[/color] vote. So glad you thought of such a great idea DipStick
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Morpheus on July 03, 2005, 04:08:46 PM
wow

It took you 2 months to say that?

Are you really that bored?
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Mugzeee on July 03, 2005, 05:25:07 PM
Nope. Just about 15 seconds.
Im just glad the topic is back on the table.
Cheers
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Morpheus on July 03, 2005, 07:59:54 PM
Glad its back on the table?

haha, its only here because you brought it back.

LOL, watermelon I can punt a few topics up too...

Two things though.

1) Its against the BB rules to punt a dead topic.

2) And its dead because no one cares. :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Mugzeee on July 03, 2005, 11:17:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Glad its back on the table?

haha, its only here because you brought it back.

LOL, watermelon I can punt a few topics up too...

Two things though.

1) Its against the BB rules to punt a dead topic.

2) And its dead because no one cares. :)

And how is it that i brought it back? Dipstick is the one making the request. As for punting..im simply using another thread as a reference...Nothing against Dipstick either..im just glad hes had a different view than he did a while back. So please..dont make sumpn outa nutin sir cheers :)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on July 05, 2005, 12:41:39 PM
Well you're quoting me out of context but at that time (a year ago) the case was as I stated. I'm thinking there were about 400ish in the Ma at the time and we needed all the targets we could get, especially with the large (pizza, etc...) maps.

Today the MA is 450+ all the time. There is alot of warping, rubber bullets <--- included just for BGB ;) etc... and to take 40-50 out of the MA from time to time to have some other kind of fun would be beneficial all around.

But that's another story......

Page 2

PS... Also the "Fighter Arena" you suggested and the one I suggested are two different animals.

PSS... In future posts please refer to THIS THREAD (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150982) instead. It was the last thread on the subject.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: Mugzeee on July 05, 2005, 01:51:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick
Well you're quoting me out of context but at that time (a year ago) the case was as I stated. I'm thinking there were about 400ish in the Ma at the time and we needed all the targets we could get, especially with the large (pizza, etc...) maps.

Today the MA is 450+ all the time. There is alot of warping, rubber bullets <--- included just for BGB ;) etc... and to take 40-50 out of the MA from time to time to have some other kind of fun would be beneficial all around.

But that's another story......

Page 2

PS... Also the "Fighter Arena" you suggested and the one I suggested are two different animals.

PSS... In future posts please refer to THIS THREAD (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150982) instead. It was the last thread on the subject.

Eeeekk..i went to that thread and decided to plead the fifth here. Shees. Ill just let you do your thing little buddy. :D
Hope it fly's.
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: DipStick on July 05, 2005, 05:43:02 PM
It won't fly that's why I let it die. ;)
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: TheCage on June 01, 2007, 02:22:47 PM
:O
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: The Fugitive on June 01, 2007, 07:07:49 PM
TheCage, Skuzzy going to shut you down if you keep bringing back these old threads, its against the rules!
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: TheCage on June 01, 2007, 08:59:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by The Fugitive
TheCage, Skuzzy going to shut you down if you keep bringing back these old threads, its against the rules!


Quote
OK this multi-arena crap has gotta go


Maybe but prying minds wanted to know why HTC made the split.   Now they know:rofl
Title: Fighter Arena?
Post by: KTM520guy on June 01, 2007, 10:53:50 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/KTM520guy/batmanrobin2.jpg)