Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on March 06, 2001, 05:18:00 AM
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Where are the screams for gun control?! The 15 year old used a .22 pistol to kill two students and injure around a dozen more. What additional gun controls would have prevent that??? NONE! ANYONE can get a .22, ANYONE! This story made me sick yesterday as my youngest is also 15. To think of his life snuffed out by some picked on, CONFUSED student with a .22 pistol made my stomach flip.
Then some yahoo adult, I think it was the shooter's mother's boyfriend, goes on national television and say he feels responsible because the boy spoke of doing this in the past and he, the boyfriend, didn't take any action to prevent it. (Lawyers were smiling all the way to the bank on that one).
Anyone wonder why all of these shootings are happening at our Public schools and none at the private schools? What's happened to our society for a 15 year old to take another 15 year old's life??.. For Christ sakes, his worries should be pimples, cars and girls...
Since no one can fix that, I suggest closed campus with one way in and out of each school, bus them in 30 minutes to an hour earlier so they have time to walk through the metal detectors and have their backpacks scanned just as if they were going into a courthouse or an airport terminal. Locker searches & armed police patrolling the school grounds. Sad times we live in ...
Eagler
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i don't want to enter into the debat of "do we have the moral right of having a gun"
but for me (european ppl) i think this 1st amendemant ( i don't remember the number) is a piece of sh*t
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nono
56th (FG) FIREBIRDS RAF
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Originally posted by nonoht:
i don't want to enter into the debat of "do we have the moral right of having a gun"
but for me (european ppl) i think this 1st amendemant ( i don't remember the number) is a piece of sh*t
That's all nice and good. But, it might have been a bit tougher for a certain germanic country to conquer yours if your civilians were heavily armed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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humm
sure so that's why there are many massacre in your school ???
excuse me, but your vision of cowboy way of life is toejamty... and i don't thing that with some guns, civilian would stop German Pnzr divisions durind invasion of FRANCE...
that's only made more civilian death
PS: you voted bush haven't you ?
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nono
56th (FG) FIREBIRDS RAF
[This message has been edited by nonoht (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
That's all nice and good. But, it might have been a bit tougher for a certain germanic country to conquer yours if your civilians were heavily armed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
LOL !
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lol, if even army couldnt stop germans, how could have the civilians..
they probably would had made just for better partisans at most. (..and more dead civilians after nazis decides to revenge)
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Don't bother pal; most Americans on this board think it's fine and dandy for a kid to get hold of a gun and shoot his classmates. Any form of gun control would seem to be 'un-American'.
It's about time they woke up and smelt the bull-shit.
Turn your schools into fortresses and destroy any innocence the children have - all because you can't bear to have any form of control regarding your right to bear fire-arms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
But it's statistically unlikely your kids will be hurt, right? That's ok then.
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Don't bother pal; most Americans on this board think it's fine and dandy for a kid to get hold of a gun and shoot his classmates. Any form of gun control would seem to be 'un-American'.
It's about time they woke up and smelt the bull-shit.
Why don't pal you smell yours? No gun controls stopped a maniac killing 16 kiddies 3 years ago. No gun control stopped another piece of toejam brandishing machete at another lot of little kiddies. And guess what? Their teacher who covered them with her body and received horrific injuries got just £10K compensation from your gun controlling liveral loving labour government, great, eh?
Gun don't kill - people do. Regardles of whether they come from America or some other place - it is a person who pulls the trigger.
BTW, no gun control would stop the very same kid from buying a 25kg bag of fertiliser from a local gardening centre and blowing the whole school up to hell and back...
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Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
That's all nice and good. But, it might have been a bit tougher for a certain germanic country to conquer yours if your civilians were heavily armed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
I'm suprized that you would say something this stupid considering that you say you are a profesional soldier. But then again, I've seen what US military defines are "profesionnal" first hand.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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NONE! ANYONE can get a .22, ANYONE!
You have to be 21 to get even a .22.
Don't bother pal; most Americans on this board think it's fine and dandy for a kid to get hold of a gun and shoot his classmates.
Um.. yeah.. right. You may have just qualified for idiot of the year with this one.
. Any form of gun control would seem to be 'un-American'
Some believe this, some do not. Many gun restrictions have been VOTED in in the USA. Kinda makes you wonder just how American's are prerceived vs how the media portrays them... and just how stupid some people can be when it comes to stereotyping.
But it's statistically unlikely your kids will be hurt, right? That's ok then
So.. its guns and not the individuals? Are there any countries where guns are even more prevelant than in the US? The company I work for actually has one site that has a "Check your guns at the front door" policy. That site is not in the US. I've not heard of this type of thing happening in that country. I wonder why that is.
I do think there is a problem in the US. I do not believe that problem is guns. Guns don't make a person smile as he/she ends another person's life, sickness does.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 03-06-2001).]
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-lynx- is right, and its not fair and it should
not be done, to judge and say ALL US americans are debt.
Hey this kind of shooting happened last year
here in Germany, and guess what ? we have gun-control.
Gh0stFT
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I know you have to be 21 to purchase a .22. I'm saying if there is a gun readily available to a teenager it'd be a .22 as many are purchased for target practice and knocking around tin cans. My point is that you can't keep guns from those who want to kill. The issue isn't gun control, it's raising our children to respect life, take your freaking lumps and move on. The issue is locking up the bastards when they commit crime and stop the bleeding heart liberal excuses for unacceptable social behavior. This thread isn't about France and the Germans, how retarded. It's about a value system in our country and possibly the world that is in the toilet....
Eagler
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Ok, Lynx. Name another incident apart from Dunblane, where someone has walked into a school and opened fire on the children, in a school in England in the last, say, 200 years.
Because I'll be damned if I can find one.
The incident with the machete attack would have been, much, much worse if the guy had had access to a gun, no matter what calibre or method of operation.
If you are going to equip a mentally ill person with a weapon, a machete is far better than a gun.
As for the 10k of fertiliser - has anyone ever blown up a school in the US, nevermind the UK?
Of course I don't really think that AKDejaVu. But when the unbelievably glib statement "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is trawled out, what do you expect people to think? It's equivalent to a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders.
There is now a sickness in America? And what causes that sickness I wonder? The media and it's constant bombardment of children with images of gun related violence? Or is it those damned commie liberals with their poison - because we know America was sweetness and light before 1969?
Should you all believe in Jesus, because a Christian has never raised his hand to a fellow Christian?
Come on DejaVu, what is the answer you would give to the parents of those kids, both those dead and alive? That the perpertrator was diddlyed up and the fact that he had such easy access to firearms is completely irrelevant? Should they go out and buy their kids guns so they can protect themselves, because "a man without a firearm is a subject and not a citizen"?
The UK is no perfect model for gun control legislation (I personally don't agree with an out-right ban on gun ownership) - but I think we have gone in the right direction. Maybe a little too far, but the right direction nonetheless.
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(http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/Blaming_Guns.jpg)
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I keep thinking that Rosie O'Donnell is less dangerous with her spoon than the average <place what you want here> with a gun ...
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Straffo, you missed the point entirely. If its not a gun, then its some sort of other weapon. Get it? Its a behaviorial problem of society, not the weapon in hand.
BTW, anyone could gut you with a spoon pretty easily if they're angry enough...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Straffo, you missed the point entirely. If its not a gun, then its some sort of other weapon. Get it? Its a behaviorial problem of society, not the weapon in hand.
BTW, anyone could gut you with a spoon pretty easily if they're angry enough...
Well I got it Rip ,it's just my "twisted" sense of derision (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
btw it depend also of the size of the spoon I'm not afraid of an 0.22 spoon ,things are getting serious with metallic 2 inch spoon...
My previous answer (you will never see because of a server bloat on my end) was :
// start quote of a never posted post
It's not a problem of gun access or not,but more a problem of education.
// end quote of a never posted post
Even if we won't agree about gun control (but agree to disagree) I've yet to heard about a lone gun deciding itself to shot at someone.
But using the predicate that if you give gun to population they will protect themselve from invasion is plain wrong for me.
The exception are perhaps Swiss and Israel but it's in a well defined system with military trainig and not free access to weapon.
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Straffo, I am a proponent of more gun control laws only if they enforce the current laws on the books, with full term prison sentences being served, not some liberal lawyer hot-shotting it for a criminal, only to ge the sentence deferred and the criminal released with 6 months probation and a slap on the hand. You see, we don't enforce the law with the laws we have, so what good would MORE gun control laws do? Nothing except make weapons less accessible to law-abiding citizens and accessibility to those who get them thru other channels would remain unchanged.
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The problem with gun control is that the criminals will always and everywhere have access to illegal firearms...
The bad guys find ways to get them even if theyre declared illegal. Btw: how many firearms are there in USA today? Lol.. the criminals need to steal only 1% of them to keep them supplied forever.
The first time I shot with an automatic handgun was with an unregistered Luger. No guncontrol was enable to prevent that (and we have pretty strict control here..)
One of my favourite phrases is: it's too late to pucker when the toejam is already in the pants.
I agree on the above posts: It's the sick individuals and the social problems that kill people, not guns. Social, racial problems. Lack of upbringing at home. Parents no longer take responsibility of their children and they go bad. We are raising a nation of zombies (it's called free upbringing while they should call it the zombie project.)
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I will stay clear of the flames about the gun/no gun discussion...
I just say Its terrible and that I was shocked when I heard about this tragedy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
This is happening too much lately (once, twice a year?). I sincerely hope that this doesnt happen again.
And indeed I think that the idea of the metal detector would be OK if the situation is so extreme ,and if kids are carrying weapons to the school.
[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Straffo, I am a proponent of more gun control laws only if they enforce the current laws on the books, with full term prison sentences being served, not some liberal lawyer hot-shotting it for a criminal, only to ge the sentence deferred and the criminal released with 6 months probation and a slap on the hand.
Sure we have the same opinion about the way the law is applied (even here across the Atlantic we have the same trouble) but the balance is hard to do between over and under punishement
And we have to try to re-educate criminal before releasing them if event it works (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I've given computer courses in a jail during some time and since I'm not categoric about what to do to criminals.Some famillial history where absolutly awfull.
I've speaked with a guy whose father was a violent/jobless/alcoolic and the mother was a prostitute to help earning money and HE was given as a toy to some deviant adult !
How can this kind of guy not become criminal ?
You see, we don't enforce the law with the laws we have, so what good would MORE gun control laws do? Nothing except make weapons less accessible to law-abiding citizens and accessibility to those who get them thru other channels would remain unchanged.
That the drawback ...
All trouble of comprehension should be redirected to : http://www.systransoft.com (http://www.systransoft.com) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by fd ski:
I'm suprized that you would say something this stupid considering that you say you are a profesional soldier. But then again, I've seen what US military defines are "profesionnal" first hand.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As a 13 Year enlisted man in the USAF, I take a offence to that FD. I assure you that I am quiute the professional and strive to excell in all I do! I can also assure you that the US military on the whole does the same. And if you are indeed still living in the USA, You at the very least could say thank you to us for the service we provide... Thank you very much.
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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it isn't about the gun he would have used another weapon if not a gun anyway, and gun control would have only made it harder - it is the other prob that bothers me
i met a guy on a plane once that builds schools in vietnam and other 3rd world places- he was worried to go there at 1st but found that 10 years later the schools he designed were spotless. inside the kids were silent and respectful - they even helped maintain the schools because they knew they were so poor they had to keep the only one they'd get.
the schools he helped design in the states fell to ruin in a few years. covered with grafitti and abuse - littered with broken glass and hordes of disrespectful students walking around with their pants hangin around their ankles and mumbling some foul 'squeak this - nigga that stuff' with no teacher daring to tell them to watch their language - animals breaking anything that wasnt behind a shield or unbreakable glass....everything in lockdown and teachers just trying to make it thru the day
it is hard for a kid that is having probs to be thrown into this out of control culture where the teachers are just baby sitting and the students do what they please and can pick on a kid unhindered with nothing but scared adults letting them run wild - i went to school in the city and around 10th grade decided to just skip it and go to college- no one even noticed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
it is a shame that a country like the US no longer has the cohones to teach respect and empower their teachers
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What I personally find frustrating in all of this debate and bickering is what our fine president said regarding the shooter.
President Bush, who was talking with reporters in Washington about budget negotiations, said he was "saddened" by the shooting, which he called a "disgraceful act of cowardice."
In no way do I condone what the kid did, and I do believe he should be responsible for his actions.
However, it has been stated that this was also a teenager who was constantly and relentlessly picked on. He recently had two skateboards stolen from him. For our president to dismiss his action with a comment such as the one quoted above... shows a complete lack of awareness.
Why was he picked on? Where were the adminstrators, the counselors, the teachers when it came to seeing that this kid was in trouble? My father is a retired English teacher/Guidance Counselor, and the plain fact is that the adults *are* aware of what is going on. They're not deaf to the gossip, and I'm sure that it was well known that this teen was not one of the more popular sorts.
He had a lot of anger in him, but this was a prevenative event! Schools are paying less and less attention to each individual student and problems that could be resolved simply by a chat with a member of the faculty go unchecked.
It's a sad day, but the handling of guns are not the problem in this case. It's how our schools are handing the children.
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Originally posted by nonoht:
sure so that's why there are many massacre in your school ???
excuse me, but your vision of cowboy way of life is toejamty... and i don't thing that with some guns, civilian would stop German Pnzr divisions durind invasion of FRANCE...
When Germany with it's relatively small army and fewer (and less armed/armored) tanks attacked France, they already knew they would attack Soviet Union where they would need every single division there.
Beside taking a country there is a question of holding it. Of course they knew very well that they will not need to keep many divisions in France. They probably expected that faced with danger from an enemy to whom french themselves showed no mercy in 1918, most french would:
1. Fall on their backs and spread their legs;
2. Help round jews and send them to the gas chambers - much good did surrender do them;
3. Help germans fight british troops in Afrika and other places.
Of course they were right.
Armed and unarmed population caused quite a lot of problems to occupation troops in Russia - both Hitler's and Napoleon's.
US of A did not gain independence because the miserable ragtag assembly that called itself Washington's army could ever stand to british troops on the field of battle. It did so because Britain could conquer but not occupy the territory where population was hostile and armed.
What about Afganistan? It was not Stinger missles that defeated us (at that time I lived in USSR) - it were bearded guys with chinese kalashnikov's and front-loading 0.75 muskets.
What about japan having more advanced firearms then europe and completely eliminating them within a hundred years because it threatened the power of the samurai class to do whatever they wished with lower classes?
When you have a weapon, it does not mean that you have to use it. It just means you have a choice to do so.
If die you must, you may have control of over when and how.
You may think you are a citizen - as long as nobody objects. You are really a serf.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Gun control isn't the problem.
Our broken school system is the problem. Fix the schools so they actually do their job and don't single people out, and this problem will disppear.
You Europeans who think America's only school violence is gun-related should check the statictics. For every 1 gun incident, there are several hundred stabbings, quite a few of which cause severe injuries and occasionally even death. It's just that gun violence is the only type that recieves national attention. I am the first to admit--America's education system is completely broken.
But guns aren't the problem. They're a scapegoat for the REAL problem of broken schools.
J_A_B
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Come on DejaVu, what is the answer you would give to the parents of those kids, both those dead and alive? That the perpertrator was diddlyed up and the fact that he had such easy access to firearms is completely irrelevant? Should they go out and buy their kids guns so they can protect themselves, because "a man without a firearm is a subject and not a citizen"?
I don't pretend to have the answer. However, I do know that "if it weren't for guns, there would be nothing to worry about" is not the right one.
Are more people in the US and/or UK killed by knifes in school than by guns? Are more children beaten to death each year than are shot? Ask youreself those questions, find an answer, then explain to anyone how firearms are to blame for everything.
My personal opinion is that too much time is spent nurturuing children.. trying to guide them.. trying not to hurt their feelings.. trying not to be insensitive to their needs. When the time eventually occurs that someone does not do the above.. what will the response be?
AKDejaVu
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It's interesting that no one here has focused on what in the hell the REAL problem is here.
Of course it was exacerbated by easy access to a .22 handgun.
But then...it used to be in this country even MORE people had guns around, a lot, and we didn't have school shooting sprees.
Hell, my dad, bleeding-heart-liberal that he is, had a .22 rifle.
My grandfather, great uncles, and all their friends that lived on farms had rifles, shotguns, and usually a .22 pistol for "varmints," whatever those are.
But that was in a time where very rarely did you have both spouses working. The term "latch-key kids" did not exist.
Now, everyone's so eager to "keep up with the Jones'" that they both work, and sometimes pull a lot of overtime so they can get that shiny new SUV.
And that's only if there are TWO parents, and not divorced, like over half of the population of the US is today.
We've stopped thinking of our families, and started thinking only of ourselves. No wonder our children feel "disenfranchised."
And when something goes wrong, we try to blame anyone but ourselves. Gun manufacturers, ID Software, teacher's unions, Democrats, Republicans, bus drivers, anyone but ourselves.
Gun laws are more strict in this country that they ever have been before. And my post is not to discuss whether they are too strict, or not strict enough, but to point the finger at the REAL culprit...OURSELVES.
We need to spend a little more time wondering what Johnny is doing up in his room. We need to spend a little more time thinking about what is good for our families and our children, and stop worrying about satisfying the child inside US.
I'll be the first here to say it isn't easy. I've got my almost-17 year old daughter living with me full time, and every other day I have my 4 year old too.
Every other day of my life, after 5pm, I am basically a slave to the whims of my children. But that's okay...except for those rat-bastards who invented "Barney." I admit to letting my 4 year old watch TV while I clean, cook dinner, serve dinner, do dishes, and do laundry. But, other than that, I take my kids to the store to show them how to interact in societal situations, talk to them, and try and be a part of their lives.
Believe me, I'm no Mr. Rogers. I've got more holes in my parenting than Doan's has little pills, but I at least give it a shot.
Now let's pretend my IQ is about 50 points lower, I'm a woman, I'm divorced (well, already there...), but have an "ex" who threatens me on the phone constantly, and a boyfriend who is a low-life scum, but because of limited time and a low self-esteem, is the only person I seem to be able to have a relationship with.
The "ex" doesn't want anything to do with the kid or kids, because they're busy running around to bars at night, and work during the day. Plus, they've got a new sweetie.
Then my boyfriend wants my attention, and decides that I should raise my children the way he was raised...with a lack of interest and compassion.
I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. And remember, my IQ and self esteem aren't up there in the "comfort" zone.
Now I'm a guy, and I'd rather have a girlfriend than a boyfriend, but I can see this happen all around me. I think you know what I'm trying to say here.
It is a problem of society more than anything else. I saw guns all around me when I was younger, and firearms and ammunition were a lot easier to procure than they are now.
We played "Army" constantly, had cap guns, really cool machine guns with cool sounds, and watched "Combat," "Rat Patrol," and anything else where people shot each other and blew things up.
But for some reason, the furthest thing from our minds was taking a firearm to school, and shooting everyone in sight.
And I didn't live in some Ozzie 'n Harriet type of home. Just a normal, worried-about-bills, the occasional argument between parents, "clean up your room" followed by "you guys just don't understand!" that sort of thing.
And don't think that living in Europe solves all these problems.
It's the same there. There just aren't guns, so people use truncheons, chains, broken bottles, knives, rocks, and fists. Guns are just a little quicker and cleaner. I believe that European society gave us the first example of "punk rockers", who by their own admission were doing what they were doing because they felt lost, lonely, and seperated from normal society, and felt they did not belong. Wonder what it would have been like back in the 70's and 80's if those folks had easy access to firearms. Probably not too pretty a sight.
And I'm not even going to touch on the subject of Sporting Hooliganism.
We as a society, and by that I mean the global society, need to get out of our own tulips and back into the hearts and minds of our families.
If a kid doesn't feel like he's unwanted, he or she might be less prone to getting attention by blowing away their classmates. And while I'm not a psychologist, and I don't even play one on TV, I think you'd find that a large majority of them would say that that was a contributing cause in all of these incidences. A cry for help, a cry for love, and an expression of being "disenfranchised", and wondering why they exist in the first place.
And don't think that simply putting a little blazer on your kid with a crest on the breast pocket is the answer either. That is not an adequate substitute for love and attention. They are some pretty sick little puppies out there in preppy land, and personally, I want my kids to be able to interact in this world, with all sorts of people from all walks of life.
I want them to be able to have lunch with banking executives, but to have enough life-skills to be able to communicate effectively with people they meet in everyday life.
I have lunch with bank executives (when they pick up the tab! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), but I also have enough people skills to be able to impress an African-American female, with 15 years experience in the public transportation system of the great city of Chicago, that I am not a heartless yuppie, and to take the time to show me, like a child, how to work the various ticket/transfer machines, how to read the schedule, what side of the platform to stand on, and how not to get lost.
For the Europeans in the crowd, and domestics who are not familiar with this type of individual, let me say that these people wake up early every morning with a smile on their face, eager to participate in another day of biting, chewing up, and the spitting out of pushy, uppity, yuppies clad in Brooks Brothers suits.
The French Foreign Legion would probably send officers on recruiting junkets to America to try and get these folks to become drill sergeants, if they weren't afraid that they would be too strict, and cause more desertions than they already have.
A lot of kids today have absolutlely no manners. A lot of kids today are so lost, they don't know how to interact with people in stores, the police, transportation officers, clerks at utility offices, etc. They've lost the ability to interact in an effective manner with those around them. A lot of this has to do with a definitive lack of parenting, and taking the time and effort to teach their children to be polite. That's hard to do when you're working overtime so you can get the shiny new SUV with the V-8 and the CD player.
Maybe if the parents took an active interest in them, they would know they were loved. If they felt loved, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to blow people's brains out. They'd also be able to find their way from the airport to downtown, on a complicated inner-city transit system, because they were able to communicate politely and respectfully with someone who was willing to shut down their ticket booth, step out from behind the protective glass, take them almost literally by the hand, and say, "Look here honey, here's what you do..."
And really, in closing, it isn't just the trailer-dwelling element that is experiencing this problem. Children of doctors, lawyers, and insurance executives too. We all need to take a look out ourselves. My mother worked full-time, and my father was working his way through graduate school and towards his doctorate. I remember looking at the back of his head a lot as he studied and graded papers for hours on end, but he always found a little time to toss the football, go on a hike, or watch Jonny Quest with me.
So if you want to point a finger, stand in front of a mirror. The longer we keep blaming this detachment of children on certain countries or gun laws, it will continue. While other parts of the world may not experience as many schoolyard shootings as the U.S., I'm sure you'll find a lot of violence, drugs, and gang activity all over the world.
Young people in general world-wide are not too "solid" right now. While that is certainly a product of youth itself, we should all work together to lessen the blow, and do what we can to make kids feel that they are wanted, and loved.
Sorry for making the post so long. I was just concerned that no one had effectively put their finger on the main antagonist in this horrible nightmare.
Mk
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Gun control yes, but not an outright ban. In Canada we have very, and i mean very, strict gun control. The sad fact is that all this gun legislation did nothing to prevent a few very sick boys from gunning down their classmates in taber, alberta a few years back.
The problem i see is there is no answer. Why didnt this watermelon happen , say, 20 or more years ago. Is it violence on tv? Single parent families? Drugs? Gangs? Materialism? They stopped making cars with tail-fins? I dont see one specific problem here, and that is scary, becase the problem will only get worse
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It's all about
Love
Respect
and Education.
Show the children love, teach them respect, and educate them about right and wrong, and this crap wouldn't happen. When I was growning up, and I still am, if I did something wrong, I could expect to get spanked or grounded........ you know, what? I never did that wrong again. If a parent does that today, they get arrested for child abuse. My parents showed me love, taught me respect........ you never heard of school shooting back then. All the troubles started with this New Way to raise your children: let them express themseves, give them freedom, if they do wrong put them in time out.......... NEWS FLASH: TIME OUT DOESN"T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sometimes progression is taking a step back..... go back to the old way of life, and take care of your kids!
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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Man needs no guns to be sick (Belgium has been quite famous a couple of years ago regarding Child-molesting...)
Maybe, we have no Guntotting teenagers, but we've got our share of Psychos...
BLAME CANADA ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Saw
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Mk10 225th = long version
Natedog = short version
<S> both
Eagler
(from one who was disciplined, on more than one occasion, with his father's belt, an event he tried his hardest to avoid repeating, a family tradition passed down to his two sons)
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
As a 13 Year enlisted man in the USAF, I take a offence to that FD. I assure you that I am quiute the professional and strive to excell in all I do! I can also assure you that the US military on the whole does the same. And if you are indeed still living in the USA, You at the very least could say thank you to us for the service we provide... Thank you very much.
4 years enlisted US Navy. Ran for my life in 97. Best thing i ever did.
What i've seen in my 4 years in most cases was far from profesional in any way shape or form.
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Not to be a Bush supporter on this but I have to agree that when someone be it a kid or adult goes on a killing spree that they are being cowards.
There are no problems at a school that can only be handled with a gun. To choose a weapon shows no courage only weakness of the mind.
I saw where they said he was being picked on and I saw where the school did nothing to help but does that excuse him for his actions? Does that mean he had no other options but to kill? He could have refused to go to school or go to the police or the school board or anything else but kill.
There may be a lot of people who turned the other way instead of helping this kid but no matter what was or was not done at school killing is never the answer.
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Originally posted by fd ski:
I'm suprized that you would say something this stupid considering that you say you are a profesional soldier. But then again, I've seen what US military defines are "profesionnal" first hand.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
First off, that comment was entirely in jest. Hence the little smiley thing with the tongue sticking out. Secondly, I see your service was satisfactory lol. Thanks for stereotyping the entire US military.
Gun control is a bad thing, and it won't prevent tragedies like this from happening.
Time to rebait my hook and throw it back out there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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"You have to be 21 to get even a .22."
Yet you can buy a 9mm carbine for less than 100 bucks, legally.
All a deranged teen has to do is get his redneck 22 year old friend or cousin or whatever to buy it for him. Or just take it from daddy's closet.
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Mk10... Right on target. (to use a shooting metaphor)
Eagler, the same. <S> to you both.
To those who think that laws will save society and the world as we would like to have it.
There are several laws that that kid broke during his cowardly act. Yes I mean cowardly.
1. Minor in possession of a firearm. In California especially this is a violation.
2. Minor in possession of a concealed firearm.
3. Theft of a firearm. He stole it according to the newspaper article today.
4. Minor in possession of a stolen firearm.
5. Bringing a firearm (or explosive device) onto a school campus. (Federal offense)
6. Murder, either 1'st or 2nd degree depending on the juries interpretation of the idiot's intent. At least 2 counts.
7. Agravated assault with a firearm. Multiple counts. At least one for every person wounded or in direct danger of the gunfire.
8. Aggravated Assault. Multiple counts (For everyone in the entire school. This may be downgraded to simple endangerment)
9. Discharge of a weapon in city limits.
10. Disruption of an educational institution during school hours.
There are others but they obviously pale in significance to the first 8 violations of current laws. There is no way any "rational" person could state that this kid didn't have knowledge that he was breaking most of the listed laws. (A lawyer might argue that, but I did state a rational person)
This indicates a high degree of intent to violate those laws. Of course it will not be his fault. It will no doubt be the guns fault and the "only solution" will be to make more laws that will be violated.
Folks, it has been stated by people with far more eloquence than I. It is the obligation of everyone who becomes a parent to be a PARENT! You cannot leave your kids alone for extended periods of time with only a TV or computer for company. Schools cannot raise your kids for you, absolving you of the obligation to instill your offspring with the values needed for a responsible citizen. Only parents can do that. By the time your kid is 6 or 8 years old they have become indoctrinated with the mores of your family values.
Schools are stuck with the task of taking the children you drop on their steps anmd trying to "socialize" them to living in a group society as well as giving them an education in "readin, writin and 'rithmatic". They cannot teach morals, religious tenets (outside of a parochial school), or the traits to live a "good life". That is the job of the family.
More laws are not the answer. Being a good parent is much closer to it. Even then you cannot prevent all problems. It is simply a fact that there are truly evil and warped people out there who are beyond all help from society and family intervention. All you can do is isolate them in some manner from the rest of society.
Here in my hometown there has been a recent hue and cry that the "zero tolerance" policies of schools are out of line as several kids have been arrested for things such as issuing a verbal threat to harm a person, class or school. Making a hand gesture similar to "pointing a weapon", drawing a picture of a firearm on a piece of paper, writing a fictional story of a situation similar to Columbine or Santee for a school assignment. The term "over reaction" has been used quite frequently for these situations. How far is too far in drawing the line in this situation? Is a zero tollerance policy a good idea? Didn't they have one in Santee??
There will be blame a plenty to spread around for this individuals acts. You can blame the school but remember this school has 1,900 students. Can you keep track of almost 2,000 indiviuals all the time? Without a means of seeing into the minds of the people around us, how can you predict with any certainty, that a problem is going to happen? How can you prevent it??
I have no idea myself and I was in the business of "protecting society" for most of my adult life. There simply is no guarantee of ANY society being safe and secure as long as people have the power of choice and free will. Do you really want the alternative??
Mav
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Originally posted by Tac:
"You have to be 21 to get even a .22."
Apparently, you can be 8, and have a 9mm in your schoolbag...hmmm...
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It is extremely short-sighted to think that either banning guns or letting every Joe carry a gun is the answer to gun violence. The fact is, nothing can deter a determined adversary once they have commited to act. That U.S. warship that was bombed in the middle-east was bristling with guns, and yet it still was successfully attacked by a determined terrorist group. I don't think these kids that have gone on these shooting sprees have been any less determined, and that is excruciatingly sick and sad.
At Columbine, those kids wanted to kill their percieved enemies and die in a blaze of glory. They pointed a gun at their own heads and pulled the trigger after their murder spree, so why would a teacher with a gun at all deter them? It wouldn't have. So what about a teacher being able to kill them before they killed as many as they did? No one can say for sure if this would have happened, but I dislike the idea of adding more bullets flying across a cafeteria full of kids -- especially when fired by someone with anything less than complete competency with a firearm under stressful conditions.
But not having access to guns at all isn't any sort of solution either. People that are that determined to commit murder will do it, they will simply choose the next easiest method. The Columbine killers did, in fact, try to blow up the school with several homemade bombs.
The real solution can only be found in trying to get these kids help before they reach the breaking point. Better yet, to identify what in our culture or their environment is making these kids spiral towards an act of madness and taking steps to eliminate it. Banning guns or arming the good guys does nothing to help the underlying cause of these actions.
Gordo
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Im not reading this whole list of crap, from what I have read its just a bunch of idiots using the misfortune of others to attack guns again, you people must go to bed praying for another school shooting so that you will have more ammo in yer anti gun cruisade...i think ill buy another pistol next week..of coure Being the average american im waaay over due fo a school shooting arnt I?
IF YOU WANT TO BLAME GUNS FOR PEOPLE GETTING SHOT, BLAME CARS FOR PEOPLE GETTING RUN OVER ....gee doesnet make much sense now doese it? NO toejam! [/i]
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-06-2001).]
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Originally posted by NATEDOG:
It's all about
Love
Respect
and Education.
Show the children love, teach them respect, and educate them about right and wrong, and this crap wouldn't happen. When I was growning up, and I still am, if I did something wrong, I could expect to get spanked or grounded........ you know, what? I never did that wrong again. If a parent does that today, they get arrested for child abuse. My parents showed me love, taught me respect........ you never heard of school shooting back then. All the troubles started with this New Way to raise your children: let them express themseves, give them freedom, if they do wrong put them in time out.......... NEWS FLASH: TIME OUT DOESN"T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sometimes progression is taking a step back..... go back to the old way of life, and take care of your kids!
exactly
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Two thoughts occurred to me while pondering this melacholy event and the postings in this thread:
1. Guns: when I was a kid in the late 50's and early 60's you could buy a gun through the mail (there were pages of them in the Sears catalog), in sporting goods stores, at unregulated gun shows and any number of other places (and this was in suburban N.J., not in Dogpatch somewhere) yet these things simply didn't seem to occur back then. I truly don't think that the availability of guns (in suburban America, at least) is really the issue with this type of incident; the guns were always there.
2. High School: One common theme that seems to run through these incidents involves student outcasts turning on their (perceived) student persecutors. Kind of a ghastly "Revenge of the Nerds" with guns and bombs.
I personally had a great time in high school, but it seems that I may have been extremely fortunate in this regard. Many people who become extremely successful in later life were apparently truly scarred by their high school years, and described them as a living hell, based largely on their treatment by their peers.
It seems that since the advent of universal public education in the late 19th century we have created a situation somewhat unique in human history, wherein large groups of young adults in their most uncertain, confused and hormone-crazed stage of life are compelled to spend most of their time in almost a factory-like setting with only each other for company and with minimal adult interaction. Such adult interaction that they have is principally in groups facing a somewhat remote teacher or administrator, and not on an individual level with adults who could be regarded as peers or friends. I believe this lack of adult interaction is probably even more pervasive among loners and social outcasts, who do not deal with athletic coaches, faculty activities moderators and others outside the classroom setting.
In most phases of human history, people of high school age would already be working side by side with adults, in the fields or the house or the military or whatever, and learning how things really are in the "real world." As an example, can you imagine the captain of the company softball team really being considered a Big Man On Campus around the average corporation? Compare that to the situation in your average high school.
In early 21st century America, students interact mostly with each other until they're out of high school (and possibly college) and into the workplace. Without TRUE adult guidance, on a personal and daily basis, it's possible to imagine how high school could turn into a kind of adolescent "Lord of the Flies" with Beemers in the parking lot.
This situation is obviously not a new one (perceived persecution of the geeks by the popular has undoubtedly existed since the dawn of civilization) but recently it has been combined with other factors (extreme violence in the media, the breakdown of the family, etc) to create incidents like this one and Columbine.
Any of the educators out there have any thoughts on this? It's been a depressingly long time since I was in high school, and I'm struggling to understand what somehow happened in the interim.
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No secrets here, straight A student moves to New Jersy at age 13. Harassed, beaten up, called names for 2 years in Green Brook High School. Grades dropped, I stopped visiting the rest rooms for fear of the beatings...why you ask? Because I looked like a nerd and spoke with 'a funny accent'. Two years of this abuse combined with parents divorcing and an alcoholic mother hardened me into a 'gang member' by age 15, complete with 3 home made tatoo's, a love to hurt someone with my fists, an anger management problem that would make Maslow want to do Disney scripts, and a chip on my shoulder the rest of my life. Had a gun pulled on me 3 times in 2 years (not school related directly, but still 'peer related'.)
Yep, High School is a VERY ugly stage of life we must endure. For some of you it was peachy keen, but for those of us who had 'a funny accent'...you hardened us. Thankfully I had parents that independantly still felt committed to raising their children with morals an values that helped me break the trend of violence that streaked thru me from grade 9 thru grade 12.
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Ya i remember Highschool as a place where people treated others with hatred for no reason at all, and where just becasue a person made ye contact with you ment it was time for a fist fight, the people who tried the hardest to get along with everyone and who had the best intentions were the the ones most persicuted...so basically HS awards those who are cruel and mean to others and puneshes those who just want to get along and those who just want to be left alone...i dont see where guns fit in there at all...by the time a gun shows up all it is doing is being part of the result, it wasnt part of the cause..if not a gun a knife a club a BOMB, fists..its gonna happen, its not the guns, its the people.
Seeing how LOTS AND LOTS of people were treated in HS bears a striking resemblance to how the Nazis treated and viewed the Jews.
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I believe that alot of this falls over the parents, not just the shooters, but others as well...
When someone goes shooting, there has to be bunch of other causes.
Like, why would kids take guns in the school?
they might be afraid other students and carries gun to possibly intimidate them whos been picking on him.
School isn't easy today, it might be worst chapter of life for some people.
I wouldn't wonder if someone gets nerve breakdown and next day is shooting people or he is at home, avoiding to go at the school.
Parents should be held in responsibility as well with things like these, not just the shooter kid parents.
If other kids causes someone to carry a gun to school, there must be some fault with those other kids parents.
To me, it seems that parents nowadays lets the school raise their childs and if something happens, its the schools fault ... or TV / Video games fault.
In some cases, I wouldn't mind bad to see some of these parents in the jail also.
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saintsaw, I was quoting someone else in that statement. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And I agree, more laws will not prevent this from happening. Its a social problem that is present because said laws are not decisive.
I am a firm supporter of a TOTAL gun Ban. Any person not in the military or police should not have a gun. Should not be allowed to buy a gun or be allowed to keep it.
Before gun fanatiks and NRA sluts start spewing constitucional/moral rights/needs to allow citizens to buy and bear arms and other such lame excuses to keep their firepower... remember: guns were designed, made and used for the sole purpose of killing. Hunters brought their game down for thousands of years with bows and arrows, if you need to kill to eat, you sure as hell can do it with all the high-tech titanium tipped, space age metal made bows avaliable out there. If you need to kill to defend your country, join the army, thats what its there for. Any imbecile that keeps illusions that he will join a gang of rambos and kick out the invading army with their 9mm Berrettas and redneck brand shotguns after said invading army defeated all your tanks, professional soldiers and air power... well, lets say I hope they get killed before they take others with them. To protect your fellow citizens? Become a cop, thats what they are there for.
Having a gun at home is the same thing as keeping a pressure activated landmine under your sofa. Its there, it is made to kill...and you have it. If you got kids, remember they LOVE to jump on sofas when you are not watching.
Guns are designed so that even a retard can use them. A kid will figure out how to load, cock, remove safety and shoot a gun in less than 5 minutes. Even less if he has HBO.
So what are you really "lobbying" to have? A chance to feel mighty because you own a gun or the life of others & your loved ones? Its either one or the other, it cant be both.
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Originally posted by fd ski:
4 years enlisted US Navy. Ran for my life in 97. Best thing i ever did.
What i've seen in my 4 years in most cases was far from profesional in any way shape or form.
first off FD, it was the navy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
secondly, it seems you may have been assigned to one of the worst units in the navy.
thirdly, maybe it was just your inability to adapt.
either way, you obviously did what was best for you...and the navy <S>
ammo
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Wowsers... I never came in the 'O Club' before...
I see a couple problems here:
1. How do you keep a weapon out of the hands of a pissed off kid?
2. Why does a pissed off kid think that shooting up the school is a good idea? I was pissed off a lot as a kid, but the idea to shoot up the school never entered my mind, and I didn't hear about other kids doing the same thing. I had easy access to a lot of firearms, but that isn't what they were for. Why is it so much more common now?
While I see no problem with having to wait a week to buy a gun, these are kids who have circumvented all of the current gun control systems (as has been noted, you can't buy a gun as a minor) in some manner. Making possession of a firearm illegal doesn't keep the firearm out of the hands of a person who wants one, and suggestions to do so are attempts to apply a band-aid to a sucking chest wound.
It is understandable that people think strict gun control would help... but realistically, I don't think that it would...
So the real challenge is in keeping the kid from being that pissed off, and in making sure that if the kid DOES get that pissed off, that they don't grab a gun.
I think NATEDOG was pretty right on in his assessment - parenting is the key. I don't know if it is the 'New Way' to raise them that is the problem - I think kids should express themselves and have some responsibility for their lives, but I think that parents need to be active in their kids lives, and not let 'em run hell and gone all over town with no boundaries. You can't decide how your kid is going to act when he grows up, but you can sure as hell do your damndest to try and show 'em the right path.
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>first off FD, it was the navy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Plezzzzzee coming from an AirForce guy ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
>secondly, it seems you may have been >assigned to one of the worst units in the >navy.
USS George Washington CVN 73
USS J C Stennis CVN 74
I was in S3 squadron on those two. We had more damn unit medals then i care to count. It's wierd when after 4 years you have 4 rows of ribbons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Unit itself was allright - it was an idiocy and lack of imagination that killed me.
>thirdly, maybe it was just your inability >to adapt.
I would charactarise it as ability to think for myself and have higher ambitions then sucking up to E-8s for promotions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
>either way, you obviously did what was best >for you...and the navy <S>
For me - oh yes. Let's see... in 4 years i've over quadripled my pay check, i'm almost done with my degree and nobody tells me which pocket i should carry my wallet in (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Originally posted by Kratzer:
It is understandable that people think strict gun control would help... but realistically, I don't think that it would...
So the real challenge is in keeping the kid from being that pissed off, and in making sure that if the kid DOES get that pissed off, that they don't grab a gun.
Well, over here in Finland those guns arent as easy to get, so they use knives instead.
It's bad, but at least you don't do any massacres with a knife, compared to some firearm.
One internet friend of mine, finnish as well, was stabbed with knife few weeks ago without a reason by some 15-16 year old while he was walking on the street.
Luckily, he will probably fully recover from that (and it wasn't just one stab).
In the US, this kid would been probably carrying a firearm instead of a knife.
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Well, that comment about it "was the Navy" was unfair...I didnt mean it and it was a jab, undeserving at that.
Im glad you quadrupled your pay check sir, however folks that STAY in the military certainly do not doing it to get rich. There is something to say for selfless service.
FD, I am also pleased that you have noone to tell you what to do, I myself answer happily first To God as my ultimate Authority, as will every one day whether you believe it or not, and then I answer to my Countries service, with a pride. Dont knock us for being the best patriots we can (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>, may your pockets be full, as well as your satisfaction.
ammo
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In the US, this kid would been probably carrying a firearm instead of a knife.
Not true. Guns in schools are rare. That is the main reason for such prolific coverage when it happens. Knifes in school.. hell I remember high school well enough to know they were pretty fricking common.
One gets media coverage, the other doesn't. Somehow one person killing two people with a gun is more important than 20 people getting stabbed in various other schools. Things like this are what make pro-gun advocates so worried. It really seems as if there is a hidden agenda proliferated by the media.
The truth is, the problem isn't guns or knifes.. its kids. There's a reason we don't allow them to do certain things before a certain age. It just seems that the world forgets that on a regular basis.
AKDejaVu
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[B}Originally posted by Park:
Don't bother pal; most Americans on this board think it's fine and dandy for a kid to get hold of a gun and shoot his classmates.
PARK YOU ARE A COMPLETE AND TOTAL MORON
SwampRat
[This message has been edited by SwampRat (edited 03-06-2001).]
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The mega-murderous Euros are telling the USA how to control firearms???
LOL!!!!
Cabby
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Gun control isn't the problem.
Our broken school system is the problem. Fix the schools so they actually do their job and don't single people out, and this problem will disppear.
You Europeans who think America's only school violence is gun-related should check the statictics. For every 1 gun incident, there are several hundred stabbings, quite a few of which cause severe injuries and occasionally even death. It's just that gun violence is the only type that recieves national attention. I am the first to admit--America's education system is completely broken.
But guns aren't the problem. They're a scapegoat for the REAL problem of broken schools.
J_A_B
So by your own admission the nature of the violance commited with guns is far worse? Even if far more rare. So if all those knife toters got ahold of daddys 22 and settled it like men...how many body bags would you have.
It appernently not the criminals kids you have to worry about. Its the kids of the guy at your NRA meet.
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Better parenting=less violent kids
No guns (aka total gun ban)=no readily avaliable weapons to be used when parenting doesnt work. And believe me, parenting DOESNT work on the instant the kid is beaten up near his house, in a flash of absolute anger and rage goes to dad's closet, takes out the shotgun, then grabs the shells he watched mom drop from above the bathroom mirror a few days ago, load up, and scatter the bullies' brains across the street.
Parenting is nice and pays off in the long run, but no parenting can go against hormone and anger in a kid, especially a bullied one.Ban on guns would at least give an incredible margin of safety from such anger release. If the bully sees the kid coming at him with a knife he can still run and scream.. thats hard to do from a bullet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Two years of this abuse combined with parents divorcing and an alcoholic mother
You had one too? I lost mine when I was 12.
I grew up DC, some people had lullibies.. I had gun shots and police sirens.
The most important things a parent can pass on to their children are: 1)Respect for your fellow humans, 2)Respect for yourself, and 3)Self Control.
Education on guns should be a given if there is one in the house.
My dad has a 7" scar on his right arm from when he was shooting at fish in the local pond. What you gonna do in North Dakota anyway? Well he slipped on a rock and shot himself in the arm with a .410(which happens to still be in the house). He had to be rushed to the hospital because he shot himself in the artery. He told me this story when I was 10, and I listened to all the gory details.. blood gushing out of his arm and into a stranger's car.
That's all I ever need to know to never point a gun at another person out of spite or rage, unless it's defend my own life or an acquintance of mine.
-SW
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ok guys here is my insight in this as a 17 year old JR...Its taken from my post on AGW in a topic like this one here goes...:
You guys are hilarious...you guys really have no clue do you? I am a teenager I go through this every day its not the guns, its not the knifes its not the music not the TV, its the adults...its the role-models, its the lack of morals its all the stuff combined. I went through some of the same stuff these punks(yes punks, I forgive em but they are punks, use your fist if your gonna use violence) went through and I didn't goto school with a handgun I could have easily gotten and killed anyone now did I?? Its role-models like you guys who need to step up and show responsibility (no offence(spelled right?) intented)and teach us right from wrong and listen to us when we need to be listened to. There is such a huge generation gap in understanding right now its rediculous...ok anyway enough of my rambling, probably get slammed and flamed anyhow but take it from me a teenager been through tough times and good times, its the person and the role-models...DUNE BTW, I would not have turned him in either if he was my friend, he said he was joking right? You know how many teenagers say they want that teacher to drop dead or such and such to happen to such and such, or they want to kill such and such?? Its too hard to tell and to report every single kid who says that. BTW< I would have told him not to come to school and prayed for him if he felt that strongly...but hey thats me..
P.S: sorry for my spelling, cannot beleive how bad its gotten after talking on flight sims in acronyms and using cut up words LOL...
Its just an insigh on this stuff, btw I could get a .22 for pretty cheap illegally very easily, I could get just about anything I wanted pretty easily..anyhow thats my outlook on it as a person who is living it right now.
Pup out
[This message has been edited by Pup (edited 03-06-2001).]
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this is my other post over there:
Ok guys, gun laws won't help period, I know many places I could get drugs guns anything I wanted for an affordable price no questions asked and this is in Mission Viejo!!! like i stated in my post its responsibility its maturity and its self-control, which are lacking in many ways in the "adult" part of society. Role-models, parents, everywhere you look and people are blaming other people for their problems... What am I supposed to think when they tell me to take responsibility for my actions and then they go off have an affair and lie about it on live TV?? Or when some kids parents are growing marajauna and using it, and tell him not to take it, what is he to do? The guns don't fire themselves, there must be a person behind it feeling the "Power" it supposedly gives them pulling the trigger, lacking the self-control and awareness that it takes to pull that trigger in certain cases. When adults blame not enough gun laws or this and that AGAIN they are not taking responsibility for their lack of proper role-modeling. I am blessed with a loving household with strong morals and disciplinary actions. I am blessed with good friends who I can talk to, I am blessed with a Youth Pastor who is only 26 and who knows what i am going through and can talk to. Ok here is the hard part to prove my point...at one point a few years ago I got low enough to think about taking my own life, an 8th grader getting that low, I wrote the note, I thought about it I even cried about...then I prayed about it, thought about it more and more and knew that would be copping out would be giving in and not being the man I needed to be...At another I felt like realy killing someone really doing it, the morals the responsibility, the self-control I got from the CORRECT AND RESPONSIBLE role models allowed me to get through it...Its not the laws or the musci or the tv nothing like that..again, its teaching kids, US, ME, to take the responsibility and then ACTING ON THAT and showing it, I for one am saddended by this incident but get on with life and learn from mistakes teach your kids right from wrong, self-control and responsibility, thats the only way to get through this, antoher thing, compassion would be good, high-school, Jr. High is cruel yes. The real world? its crueler you learn to take it and live with it in school, and then when you get to Real Life you use what you learned in school to live life the best you can and to make sure you understand that for your every action, you must take responsibility. Hey its life learn to live with it.
BTW, don't feel sorry for me that was in earlier parts of my life now I moved and got some real good friends and a better life, thats just a memory
Sorry if you don't like me cutting and pasting but thought this fit anyhow..
Pup out
[This message has been edited by Pup (edited 03-06-2001).]
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ok and hehe sorry this is my last copy and paste, its from another teenager who had something to say...his two posts combined the second is in reference to my second post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)..
1st post:Here's my point-of-view as an 11th grader in a US public school system.
While I believe that the cause of the school massacres lies fully in the individials(s) taking part, guns gave these people the means to carry out their plots.
While some argue that if there were no guns, the offenders would simply use another weapon, I believe that it would be very tough to match the damage done by guns with a different weapon.
Bombs - Takes a lot of planning on the part of the offender. First one must posess knowledge of how to build an effective bomb. OK, I know, you could probably find this on the net. What would an employee think of a high schooler buying small quantities of fertilizer? Also, where does the offender build this bomb? It would be tough to keep quantities of fertilizer and diesel fuel hiden from any parent short of blind. Then comes the task of transporting and placing an explosive device in the school. My school does not allow backpacks in classrooms since we had a wave of bomb threats following the Columbine massacre. Provided the student was "smart" enough to build an effective bomb, it would be very tough to build, store, transport, and place. And it's still not guaranteed to effect anyone when or if it does go off.
Knives - This takes a physically capable person to execute. While someone armed with a knife may catch someone off-guard, they wouldn't last long against the mob of students retalliating. Sustained injuries would be much less serious.
Poison Gas - Just obtaining it and transporting it inconspicuiously would all but rule out this means.
Car: My school has a small concrete ledge running around most of it. Any attempt at a car suicide would do little more than kill the driver and shake the school a bit. In any case the wall would absorb most of the impact energy, and there are no parts of my school where someone could crash through a wall into a largely populated area.
Guns - Easily obtainable from a parent or parent of a friend, etc. Easily concealed beneath clothing or stashed in a messy locker. Needs no special physical atrubutes to operate. Can be precisely aimed at other students and can be made instantly lethal with a little care. Nobody in the school will have the means to supress the offender. Very efficient way to kill.
So what do I think the answer is? I believe the responsibility lies in several places. First is in gun owners to not leave guns accessible to kids without supervision. This won't by a long shot cut teens off from guns, but it's a start. Next is the general behavior of students. Why anyone would tease or pick on another student until they reach their breaking point is beyond me. Students need to learn to accept others for who they are and if they don't like what they see they should just keep it to themselves instead of trying to verbally (or physically) destroy the person and push them to the edge. Parents need to become more aware of what their kids are up to and be more willing to listen to their kids. With parents gone so much, kids don't have anyone at home to confide in or to talk to about their problems before they get to the breaking point.
I'm not sure that I would have turned in the kid who committed this recent massacre had he joked about it beforehand. Obviously those who dismissed his claims knew him well enough to know how to take things from him and didn't believe it to be a true threat. Any teen with a little common sence would report a massacre plot if the warning signs were obvious, best friend or not. I really think you'd have to have background information about the offender in order to make any judgement of the jokes he made and the expected behavior of those who heard them.
Just my $.02 from my perspective for now...
2nd post:Thanks <S>
I went back and read your post in-depth. I usually skim over long threads to get the main points.
I agree that it is super-easy for teens to get their hands on drugs, weapons, etc. so unless something changes you need to teach kids to respect others instead of trying to cut them off from all sources of contraband, which I view as nearly impossible.
I think we've all had our low points in life. My Freshman year was my "downer" year and I'm glad I made it through OK. The opinions and words of others can relentlessly rip you apart at this time and emotions run high. In Junior High and High school you must transform from an all-trusting and naive elementary student to one who can take verbal and physical abuse and know not to dwell on what others might think of you or what they do to you. Some don't take this rough transition well as can be seen in the "outcasts" who perform these massacres. Perhaps students are getting too large of a dose of the acclaimed "cruel" "real world" too soon, and in their limited experience revert to acts of violence as the solution. then end..
Mosse11 if you do read through this and get to this part just want to tell you that I a 17yr old considers it an act of cowardice too, and that the kid would never goto NARCs and rat on someone else, that would just lead to worse treatment its better to be pcied on then be considered a fink out there beleive me, just tell me this would you have gone to the teachers and would have told em? doubt it, btw the teachers do when they see it usually try and stop it but you really think they gonna do this stuff in front of teachers? yeah right!
Pup out
PLEASE READ THROUGH MY POSTS THEY HAVE INSIGHT FROM THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING IT NOW
[This message has been edited by Pup (edited 03-06-2001).]
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When I was a boy, it would not have occurred to me to take a gun to school. Not because I respected my teachers. I had no more respect than my modern day counterpart. But,because I feared them. They had these boards with holes drilled in them. And they got your attention with them.
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In order to justify lbaming gun manufacturers and gun laws for shootings you would have to do the following.
A: blame the car company when someone gets killed by a drunk driver.
B:When someone gets caught laundering money, blame the bank that gave him/her an account.
C: when an arsinist starts a fire, blame it on the availability of gasonline.
To justify that an AMERICAN socity would be safer without guns you would need the following.
A: have a on-site police responsi time of less than 2 miniutes.
B: get guns out of the hands of ALL criminals who didnt regester them and will do anything and everthing to hide them.
What banning guns would REAllY accomplish in America.
A: Make criminals more confident that their victims will have no real way to defend themselves.
B: Prove that the constituition can in fact be deemed in-valid.
C: start the first step towards a long journey of finding ways around constituational that protect various rights.
D Show the populace that despite the fact that the gov ADMITS that it and the police CANNOT defend the public, that it feels they shouldent be able to do it either.
So basically no guns in US would:
A: Eliminat the last and VERY often only line of defence for a person and their family.
B: assure the criminals THAT WILL HAVE GUNS ANYWAY that their victims have no real defence against them.
C: Show that the constitution that we hold so dear really means nothing, and that the laws it stands for somehow just dont apply.
If guns did get banned..who would hand them over?? I wouldent..I lost mine, they ALL fell in the lake outta my boat (assuming boats are still legal at that point)
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Well, come up with whatever solution you think will solve our present social problems here in the USA, but be aware that we have some serious issues to deal with. Issues that delve into our very way of life, our 'American' values, our constitution even. And until they are addressed at the core, we will continue to suffer from our own social illness, which in turn will slowly transform this nation into a shell of its former self.
It's up to us Americans. Address the important issues, like reassessing who we really are, or watch it all crumble - or worse, much worse, have our children watch it crumble after we are gone.
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leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
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Originally posted by cabby:
The mega-murderous Euros are telling the USA how to control firearms???
LOL!!!!
Cabby
mega-murderous ?
explain please ...
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As a father of 3 young adults my feelings on the school violence thing is, we were lucky before and now the cats out of the bag. School, especially High School Stratifies our society as no other institution does. You take innocent impressionable kids and tell them they can be anything they want to be in Grade School and at home. Then they get into High School, and the system tells most of them what they can't be. Most of them can't be Jocks only the gifted few get to be Heroes, Most of them can't be in the band only the talented few. Most of them are wasting their time preparing for college, either not intelligent enough or not rich enough. Till by the end of their four years everyone pretty much knows their future place in society. There are the gifted and fortunate few, and there is the rest of us. Is it surprising that some of those kids resent being put in their place by the Jocks and the bullies. The surprising thing to me is that it didn't start happening a long time ago. All of these incidents are tragedies. But its not the parents fault or the 15 year old kids pulling the trigger. Its the School systems in America that are responsible. When schools encourage class stratification by Ability and Intellect not to mention Financial situation, as they do now. Then teach them about the great rebellions in the world against injustice, as in the American and French revolutions. Don't be surprised when occasionally one of the little skinny guys fights back in a big way.
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Aaah the Utopia that is modern Western society. Where kids stab/shoot each other in the playground.
Not yet an everyday occurance in British schools, but I guess it won't be too far away.
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Not true. Guns in schools are rare. That is the main reason for such prolific coverage when it happens. Knifes in school.. hell I remember high school well enough to know they were pretty fricking common.
One gets media coverage, the other doesn't. Somehow one person killing two people with a gun is more important than 20 people getting stabbed in various other schools. Things like this are what make pro-gun advocates so worried. It really seems as if there is a hidden agenda proliferated by the media.
This guy wasnt in the school, just a 15-16 year old guy on the street who then decided to use his knife for some reason..
I suspect that if guns would been easier to get, he (this invidual) would of had one instead of a knife.
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What was it that Cain used to "do" Abel?
The times and tools change....human nature doesn't I guess.
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Y'all keep missing the point, I was a 13 year old army brat when my father ended up in Northeast Georgia, wonderful schools there,calling someone a redneck was a compliment,Major problems fitting in, fights all the time,finally got transferred by my folks to a school with less antisocial elements, Gun violence? Sheesh, I would not have had to steal a gun, I owned a shotgun at the time, (got it when I was six) nor did I use a knife, although all of us carried one to school, (This was in '71) why was the violence the normal settle it with your fists kinda deal? Maybe it was the fact that teachers and cops were "Authorities" capable of doing nasty things to you, the worst of which was the dreaded "calling your parents"
Gun control is a load of crap, liberal garbage for taking responsibility away from yuppies,like V chips and 24hr day care, People have kids as status toys now,Hell, I see some kid acting like a little sh@t in a store, or find some D00d cutting up on the internet, I want to punch that kids parents in the mouth, and scream at them," Why in the hell do you have a kid? is it a Golly-gee tax break? a social requirement? get your bellybutton in gear and be a freakin parent!" The sad part is, I know why I cannot do this, It's my upbringing, (my,there's a word you don't hear anymore) Europe needs to step back from the issue, sorry guys, but the drug culture hasn't spun totally out of control for you yet, less disposable income, but your time is near, trust me. And you know what? I have yet to meet a proponent of gun control who can explain to me why would making personal ownership of firearms illegal would deter someone who is considering a much more serious offense.
I have seen 12 year old gang members toting weapons that they couldn't have bought if they were a hundred and twenty, weapons that are not for sale to the public, In the last ten years the LA county sheriff's office has seized over 1,000 weapons of a military nature that cannot be owned in the state of California,most of these weapons did not trace back to gunowners,more than 89% entered the country illegally, Gun control would not stop this flow of weapons,Gun control would not stop the sale,possession,and use of these weapons.
It would merely ensure that the 1% who do have these weapons have nothing to fear from the 99% who do not. And the neglected,raised by TV,gangers on drugs would still be blowing away the teachers.
Easy money,loose parental control, and a legal climate that wants to apologize for the criminal (Not out of any grand sense of justice, Firearms manufacturers generally have more money than 15 year olds) make for a society of tolerance toward the intolerable.
Might sound lame and naive, but that's just wrong.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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mega-murderous ?
explain please ...
I guess it was the reference to a simple fact that in the last hundred years Europeans started wars killing millions (USA was dragged into both WWs and Korea). You start stupid generalising - you get it right back in your face...
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Another stir to the pot: as far as I remember, when the Swiss serve in the army they keep all their combat gear, incuding personal weaponry at home. It would be very easy to take your dad's/mom's assault rifle and start shooting but it does not happen. Once again - guns don't kill...
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Aaah the Utopia that is modern Western society. Where kids stab/shoot each other in the playground.
Not yet an everyday occurance in British schools, but I guess it won't be too far away.
No, not far away at all. On the other hand, we haven't seen alot of people die at our sports stadiums either. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You need more passion in your sports rip.
When the best the crowd can do is " USA USA USA", how are you supposed to get some good hooligans?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
[img]http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg[/img
"Live to pull, pull to live"
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lol Santa
Nice one.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"USA, USA, USA"? I've always liked:
"You're going home in a f****** ambulance"
Or if you want humourous:
"Are you Scotland in disguise?"
Our hooligans are the best in the world - makes me really proud.
BTW, pzvg - can you start using paragraphs, your posts are really hard to read. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-07-2001).]
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It doesn't surprise me that Dowding or Santa make light of the fact that people have died in these sports events. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Well, Rip, it's OK to beat people to death to avenge the loss of your "football team". That's at least a legitimate reason. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
As long as you don't use firearms, no problemo. Also, it should be a "crowd" phenomenom so you can use the "everybody was beating him up" defense. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It's these twisted single individuals that kill with firearms that cannot be tolerated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Pretty simple. You respect life or you don't. In any event, the highlight is on the "you".
Easy to blame society, easy to blame inanimate objects, easy to look for scapegoats anywhere in fact.
But we all know it is the individual who decides to "do" or "not do".
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And it doesn't surprise me Ripsnort that your sense of irony is severely out of whack. And there's me thinking the cliche about Americans not having a sense of irony was overstated.
I live ten miles from Hillsborough, Sheffield.
Do a search on the web and find out what happened there in 1989.
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Yeah, who needs guns when you have soccer. (aka 'football')
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Tac,
I won't quote your rather rabid diatribe and name calling post that you left in this thread.
I have a couple of observations for you however.
Early in the 1900's this country decided to legislate morality and entered a ban on alcohol. It was a rousing success that created a huge instant criminal population. It also gave us our first real surge of organized crime.
For decades now we have had an outright ban on multiple substances. For a few examples: Cocaine (in any form), methamphtamines, opium (in all forms to include heroin) and except for "medicinal" purposes marijuana. Now to see how effective these bans were you can purchase all of these substances anywhere in the US to include schools. Elementary school kids are not unknown to have even heroin in their possession.
I realize that quoting real life situations is not fair. They don't support your arguments and speak volumes for the contrariness of the human being. They just don't follow your instructions on how you say they should live their lives. Perhaps you feel the third time would be the charm and all would be right with the world. For myself, I doubt it. I have dealt with addicts and "casual" drug users. They pretty much all had the same thing to say about it. They liked it and would continue to use these banned substances.
What will be the real solution? I haven't a clue. I do know that telling someone they can't have something, "for their own good", isn't very effective either historically or now.
Mav
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Sorry Ripsnort.
My sense of humour sometimes is a bit on the edge.
Didn't mean to insult of inflame, but don't think I can change it.
It's a good way of dealing with nastiness, and self irony/sarcasm is sort of a way of life here in Denmark.
Dowding, I like those. We have "Have a nice trip home", sung at the end of the game at home games when we're winning. When others do it to us, I get SOOOO &(/%(/() (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
[img]http://www.geocities.com/nirfurian/stSanta.jpg[/img
"Live to pull, pull to live"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Anyone wonder why all of these shootings are happening at our Public schools and none at the private schools?
Eagler
So much for that statement ...
One wounded in Pennsylvania high school shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/07/pa.school.shooting.01/ (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/07/pa.school.shooting.01/)
Eagler
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Im just glad i live in NZ, we dont have to worry about guns. We have some pretty tough gun laws.
Having said that, we have seen people in this country run round and shoot people randomly at least a couple of times over the last 15 years or so. I guess on a 'per population' basis we're probably not much better off.
Call me un-american or whatever, but what does the civilian population need hand guns for? sport? defending against other people with hand guns (catch 22)?
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Why does anyone "need" anything except air, food and shelter? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You could live without all else couldn't you? Wouldn't the world be better off without the pollution of internal combustion engines?
.....ah, never mind. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Basically why would anyone care if the guns were not used incorrectly?
If a gun is used incorrectly, should you blame the gun or the person?
hmmmmmmmm.... have we ever covered this ground before in another thread?
Cyas.. I'm outta this one. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Personally Santa, I hate football related violence. We've gotten rid of a lot of it over here - I haven't seen any first hand for along time.
I'd ask you to teach my that chant, but I guess it would be pretty useless against Sheffield United fans when they visit us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
On the humour thing, don't worry. It's called dry, cold, irony and I find it can be easily misunderstood when written down.
Keep up the good work. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
If a gun is used incorrectly, should you blame the gun or the person?
im not implying thats its the guns fault so you should bannish all guns. Of course its the person who uses it is at fault - cant argue that. But if the guns arent so easily available they wont be used as often as if they would if you find them in the bottom of a cereal packet.
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Originally posted by Tac:
no parenting can go against hormone and anger in a kid
Wrong. THAT is the attitude that leads to this stuff to begin with.
SwampRat
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I beg to differ. A kid can be the nicest, most well educated/raised by the most loving parents. Have him be bullied for years then one day be squeak slapped and kicked into the ground by a gang and as any normal person, that kid would go berserk.
I do agree that parenting is the best solution, but it doesnt work all the time (heck nothing does).
Edited:
BTW, the best answer to this thing that i've ever heard was said by a primary kid, the little brother of my best bud when he was doing a report on guns (columbine spawned a lot of those). One of my friends told him "guns kill people" and the kid replied "I thought people with guns killed people".
I dare anyone to argue that one! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Quote:
""I thought people with guns killed people".
That kid gets an "F" on his "report". He must be a Public School student.
Tell that handsomehunk to write on the blackboard 100 times:
"People with no respect for life kill people with any available weapon, including their own bare hands".
Cabby
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Actually, I used to enjoy handguns to quite an extent.
I had a stainless-steel .357 magnum Smith & Wesson, with a 4 inch barrel, Pachmyr grips, red ramp sight, and it had had the action worked over by an S&W certified gunsmith.
I liked it because you could shoot .38 special target round bullets through it, which were about $4.75/per 50 when I bought them from a friend who re-loaded.
Shooting a 4-inch barrelled handgun at a standard pistol target, firing double-action, was actually pretty Zen-like.
The breath control, the focus, the rhythm of your shot pattern, were all a heck of a lot of fun.
My main goal was to put as many of my six shots in the scoring circles as possible.
Before my current business occupation, I was a 911 operator for seven years. When I showed some of my target groups to the local cops, they were quite impressed.
But, one thing led to another, and soon I became involved in Lionel toy trains. Considering the cost of ammunition, the fact that I had to drive 20 miles to shoot at a nature area with a gun range, an hour of cleaning after each session, and my desire to have in my possession a really boss engine from the 1950's, I wound up selling it.
One of the neat things about guns, is that if they are properly cared for, seldom do they actually lose a lot of value.
I shot it for several years, had a lot of fun with it, and made 25 bucks on the deal.
I don't really miss it, as I love my toy trains and online sim flying now, but I did have a really great time with it, and it was more of a concentration/relaxation thing than it was a carry-around-and-hope-to-shoot-someone-legally-someday thing.
I just hope that it can be understood that pistol shooting is kind of like archery...a study in concentration, skill, and total focus on trying to put'em all in the scoring rings. It didn't really have anything to do with the possibility of shooting human beings.
Anyhoo, just me two cents once more, and this being spoken from a bleeding-heart liberal.
Mk
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I got my first "gun" when I was 6 It was a red rider BB gun, i spent countless hours every day after school and every weekend roaming around the field behind our old house shooting at cans and whatever else, I wasnt much for shooting birds or anything like that because i had a per bird. Later on i finally got my first REAL gun, i was 13 when I finally saved up $400 for my Browning A-Bolt 22. I kept it for 4 years and shot it ALL the time, I bought CCI stingers which are about the most powerful 22 rounds you can get, at the range with a rest I could hit .38 shell casings at aroun 75 yards very consistantly. Then I bough a Russian SKS and had it redone with all American made parts,and had a new stock and stuff like that. Then a year ago I bought a H&K SL8 which is the most AMAZING rifle i have ever held. a few montha ago i bought a H&K USP 40 pistol, i keep it in my truck and have actually had to pul it out once, but I am pretty sure that it either saved my life or someone else's life. Guns are fun for recreation and stuff like that which is reason enough to have them, but they also can quickly diffuse an EXTREAMLY volitile situation. Pulling a gun so that the other guy ends up taking off, is far better than having a savage fight or something else awful like that.
..oh god what am i saying! I forgot..the only use for a gun is to kill innocent people and children. oops (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Part of the problem in this whle thing is the damned liberal political idiots in this country. If it were not for them, there wouldn't be laws prohibiting parents from properly disiplining their children...
By proper disiplin, I mean a good swift kick in the ass. Teachers need to be able to do the same. If kids were scared of getting in trouble, they would be a lot less criminal.
I mean,, what can you do to your kid now if he acts up? Tell him to go in "time out" by sitting in the corner for a few minutes? Yeah, OK.. what if he tells you to go F$ck yourself? You can't smack him because the kid will be in foster care and you will be in jail for child abuse.
The whole US law system is so screwed up because of liberals defending the rights of morons. Of course there are always bad eggs, but if the law delt with them properly, everything would be just fine.
More gun control will not work.
Midnight
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By proper disiplin, I mean a good swift kick in the ass
Yup exactly!, all this crap ya hear like "dont punish yer child, let them express themselves" yea whatever, but then when this undiciplined child shootes a classmate its not his or his parents fault..nooo its the GUNS fault. These stupid MORONS have thier hads so far up thier tulips that they dont know left from right. their basic line of thinking is.:
"Dont punish yer kids, dont dicipline them either, let them do what they want, dont teach them right from wrong, if they kill somebody..blame the gun they use, its the guns fault. If the gun wasnt there the kid would have been a model citizen."
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Ah sorry Dowding, y'see us good ole boys from
"Down Souf" Jawja ways,gots us a probleme
We'uns don' talk like them thar yankee fellers.
So's you'd be forgivin ifn usn's punc-choo-ation ain't xactly right, ya heah?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
very tongue in cheek, but yes on occasion, I do actually speak that way, depends on the audience.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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I got my first "gun" when I was 6 It was a red rider BB gun
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Be careful with that thing, youll shoot your eye out!
Eagler, our society is fediddleed up beyond repair. It will take a total rebuild as far as I can tell. The price for that rebuild is likely more than most are willing to pay so lookout for european totalitarianism in your local state and federal government.
Its on its way! Whee!
Y (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 03-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by Midnight:
Part of the problem in this whle thing is the damned liberal political idiots in this country. If it were not for them, there wouldn't be laws prohibiting parents from properly disiplining their children...
By proper disiplin, I mean a good swift kick in the ass. Teachers need to be able to do the same. If kids were scared of getting in trouble, they would be a lot less criminal.
I mean,, what can you do to your kid now if he acts up? Tell him to go in "time out" by sitting in the corner for a few minutes? Yeah, OK.. what if he tells you to go F$ck yourself? You can't smack him because the kid will be in foster care and you will be in jail for child abuse.
The whole US law system is so screwed up because of liberals defending the rights of morons. Of course there are always bad eggs, but if the law delt with them properly, everything would be just fine.
More gun control will not work.
Midnight
Horseshit. I don't beat my children. I used to swat them when they were very young and did things that were life threatening such as playing with electric sockets but stopped when I realized that beating them served only one purpose, venting my frustration.
Children do not obey because of fear. They obey because of respect. If they don't respect you, no amount of beating will change that.
Granted... Child protection laws are extreme. No argument but I absolutely disagree that beating is the one solution. It's not that simple. I think it's far more important to have a parent at home with the child instead of having both out in the workforce. Of course, this is also a simplistic view and there are no doubt other solutions possible.
Is there really a problem? Not according to the Justice Department records. Teen violence (per capita) is lower now than it has been in fifteen years (or more). The media would have us believe that are children our out of control. It's roadkill. The fact is... all increases and decreases in teen violence per capita is in gun related violence. Violent acts among teens that don't involve guns has been stable and relatively unchanged for 20 years. Are there more acts of violence today then 20 years ago? Absolutely. The population is larger. Are we at greater risk? I don't think so. The media would have us believe that we are in danger. Fear sells advertising.
I refuse to live in fear.
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Sandman,
There is a difference between beating and spanking (corporal punishment). The way I read your post (I think) you equate them the same. If that is not true then please let me know.
As far as the respect issue is concerned, I agree up to a point. Many kids are taught that they are expected to have high "self esteem" and will be given praise and recognition for virtually no reason other than to boost it. This means they really didn't do anything to deserve it. Now they expect recognition and promotion for nothing at all. It has become a "right".
Quite a few kids are also taught by parents and other kids that they cannot be touched by any adult. I have seen kids in elementary school tell a teacher to go to hell and then tell the teacher they can't do anything about it. I have seen kids attempt an assault on a teacher and then remind the teacher that they can't touch or hurt the kid. They also know quite well the threat of a law suit.
When a teacher complains to a parent about the behavior of the child the parent tells the teacher the child has the right to express themselves. This encourages more aberrant behavior on the part of the kid.
These situations are not conducive to the student learning any respect for their teachers or school.
I am not an advocate for corporal punishment in school per se, but I do think that the past system had more control over the kids in the school than exists now. In my own curmudgeonly way I still believe that some problems are best dealt with at the seat of the pants of the individual in question.
I am not a parent who has had to spank often. I recall only twice where I had to swat my son. Both were before he was 10 years old. I didn't enjoy it but it did solve the behavior problem. My son knew why he was punished at the time he got swatted and he got the swat at the time of the bad behavior. I am a firm believer that punishment must be directed at the behavior and that the child must understand why the punishment is rendered.
Mav
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There is a difference between beating and spanking
EXACTLY! I beat my dogs.. I spank my wife. Completely different things.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Sorry.. just couldn't resist.
AKDejaVu
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it isn't about the gun he would have used another weapon if not a gun anyway,
Sorry, but when I read stuff like this I just gotta jump in. OK, so if he didnt have a gun he would have used something else, right?
Like what?
A knife, a machete? You think he would have been able to kill two students and injure a dozen more with a knife or machete?
Guns dont kill people: People WITH GUNS kill people!
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Well jek,
He could have rigged a propane tank up pretty easy, a pipe bomb or made a napalm
rig. He could have plowed a car through a bunch of kids in the parking lot. Just surf the web using keyword *bomb*....
Yes, a gun is very easy to use but as usual all you folks miss the mark entirely. I mean utterly completely. Killing for no justifiable reason is the root problem.
Why kill for no justifiable cause? go figure......
Y
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A knife, a machete? You think he would have been able to kill two students and injure a dozen more with a knife or machete?
Not to sound sick or evil but i think that in a large crowd of people i could kill way more then 2 people with a something like a fillet knife before anyone knew what was happening, and then when they did IF they tried to stop me there would probably have to be 4 or more people attacking me at the same time form all sides to not get chopped up really bad in the process.
Its a fact, a screwed kid is a screwed up kid.. weither he has a gun, knife, BOMB or whatever.
Jekyll,
basically yer post is saying that the guns are the problem, not the fact that the kid has enough problems to want to kill his peers.
Its kinds fruity to say "The problem isnt that the kids want to run around killing people, its that they might get a gun"
Here is how it works.
You leave the criminal/distubed person, and take away a weapon (gun) he will find another and the problem will NOT be solved.
You remove the criminal or "cure" the disturbed person, and the need to eliminate the weapon ceases to exist.
Taking away guns because some criminals and crazies may use them in a act of violence, is like taking away cars because a drunk or high person may decide to drive one.
By attacking the guns you IGNORE the real probelem AND punish the people who have done nothing wrong.
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Pzvg - "down south" in the US, equates to "up North" in England. You know, supposedly backward, closeted communities, out of step with modern society. With a strong dialect and accent.
I'm from 'up North'. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-08-2001).]
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But, wouldn't it be said more like, "Uhp Nawf?"
Mk
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It's the same mentality that comes up with an excuse to blame someone else besides the person who actually committed the crime.
How many times have we seen a murder/rapist who's defense is that he was abused when he was a kid so it's not his fault he killed/raped those people? How many times does that defense work? To many!
Making the blanket statement that guns are the problem does nothing to help solve the situation. We need to have a solution that could work in a short period of time. Banning guns will not happen in this lifetime so we need to look else where.
There are things we can do to make our Schools safe but we won't do them because they cost money. We could have Security guards, Metal detectors, Random searches, Drug testing.... but we don't.
Some Schools will have 1 or 2 of the above but they don't do them all because most either don't have the money or like in our case our Administration is so afraid of being sued they won't even let us put student names or pictures on our web pages.
Hell we even had a kid who was a known drug dealer kicked out of school only to be let back in when the Father threatened to sue!
If people are so concerned about kids in school they should be willing to fork out more money to put in the security measures required AND force the Administration to enforce the rules.
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More like "Uhp Norf".
The "Narf" bit is more likely to come from a nancy southern boy, SwoopGb being a good example. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
"Facking 'ell - it's bladdy bunch o' 1-O noins!"
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-08-2001).]
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Quote:
"Hell we even had a kid who was a known drug dealer kicked out of school only to be let back in when the Father threatened to sue!"
And THERE is one of the MAIN reasons for the sorry-ass condition the Public Schools are in today.
That young "drug-dealer's" so-called "Father" should be in thrown in jail(along with his Lawyer) or at least given a good caning. Then fine the crap out of both of them for bringing a frivolous lawsuit.
The inmates are running the asylum in the USA these days (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Cabby
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Originally posted by Maverick:
Sandman,
There is a difference between beating and spanking (corporal punishment). The way I read your post (I think) you equate them the same. If that is not true then please let me know.
Nope... you got it correctly. I see the difference in spanking and beating purely as a matter of scale. Corporal punishment was one of the tools my parents used. It's not one of mine. So far, I'm pleased with the results. Rather than try and walk the line of even-handedness between spanking and outright beating, I just don't.
Hey... your mileage may vary. Parenting methods differ every bit as much as the children differ. What bothers me is the notion that a good ass-whoopin' will cure society's ills (whatever those are) and the thought that if one doesn't use corporal punishment, they are doing something wrong.
IMHO, there are plenty of wrong ways to raise children. We spend most of our parenting lives trying to get a handle on the "right" way or combination of "right" ways. Unfortunately, it's a moving target. If you think you have the solution for all parents, you're fooling yourself. (Note: I don't mean this statement as you: Maverick. You meaning not me.)
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
If people are so concerned about kids in school they should be willing to fork out more money to put in the security measures required AND force the Administration to enforce the rules.
I've got an even cheaper solution. If the kid doesn't stay within the rules, he's gone. Still a lot of holes in this country that need to be dug, highways to repair, etc. If they aren't interested in learning, give them a shovel.
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...maybe this whole thing is really an issue of population. I dunno, seem's like with the steady increase in population you have a steady increase in the chance for warped sense's of reality.
SwampRat
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You know the one thing that pisses me the hell off? You guys saying, "If he didn't have a gun, he would not be able to kill so many." Look, One child is too many, got it? this isn't a whoopeeed statistics game, To two families out there, That boy killed exactly ONE child, theirs.
If the only way you can solve the problem is to become something worse than the problem, is that problem really that bad?
My children are important to me, I will smack them if they step outta line, They know that, consequently I do not engage in much smacking, Oh yes I'm a brute, and I'm evil, And what I do will effect them the rest of their lives.
That's the friggin idea, folks, that's the idea.
People tell me when one of my kids has spent the night over with their kids how well mannered and considerate my child is.
They were given a proper upbringing, They know how to punch a sorryass in the mouth too, but they don't have a need to "vent" or "express themselves"
You want to see brutal? FRY that little toejam,
and televise it, make it mandatory viewing in high schools, See how many of them wish to "express themselves" after watching someone's eyes pop from their head.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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As long as there are guns, there will be people who use guns irresponsibly and there will be casualties. There is no changing this fact, not new laws, not stiffer punsishment, nothing.
Take it up with Chuck Heston.
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As long as there are guns, there will be people who use guns irresponsibly and there will be casualties. There is no changing this fact, not new laws, not stiffer punsishment, nothing.
Wow yer typical blame the guns garbage again. Try this one:
As long as there are people who behave irrsponsabily there will be casualities.
Hmm that sounds much better doesent it..and hey IT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.
THATS what there is no getting around. Blaming the guns and ignoring the PROBLEM is whats the matter, not the guns. No matter if there are guns are not people will try to other people, guns or not PEOPLE are the problem, NOT guns.
What yer saying is like saying cars are the cause of drunk driving incidents.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-09-2001).]
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I found this article as an interesting perspective on this issue...
http://www.blackvoices.com/news/my_turn/010307schoolshootings.html (http://www.blackvoices.com/news/my_turn/010307schoolshootings.html)
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darkstar
=Twin Engine Devils=
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TheWobble... you missed the point but I'll play along...
As long as we have cars, people will use them irresponsibly. There will be casualties.
Yep... that works too.
The point is... you can't change the behavior. There is nothing that will reduce the danger of gun violence to zero except eliminating guns. That said... the only thing left is to simply accept it as the price to be paid for this particular freedom and move along. Freedom doesn't come without a cost.
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The point is... you can't change the behavior. There is nothing that will reduce the danger of gun violence to zero except eliminating guns. That said... the only thing left is to simply accept it as the price to be paid for this particular freedom and move along. Freedom doesn't come without a cost.
Well so what you are saying is that there is no point in trying to change the criminal, insted just take away whatever they use from EVERYBODY. In other words punish everyone for what the bad minority do?
So basically Ignore the problem (the people who want to do these bad things) and PUNISH EVERYBODY for whatever they do. yea freedom has a price..but to punish everyone for the acts of a few is fundamentally wrong.
Bad things happen to good people, its sad but its always been around, and always will be, but trying to childproof the nation just because some people behave badly is far from anything resembling a solution.
lets see here..
NO guns
NO cars
NO knives
NO baseball bats
NO fists
NO feet
...I could go on
is nothing that will reduce the danger of gun violence to zero except eliminating guns
thats the worst thing possable. why?
well lets see Mr. Goodguy, a nice LEGAL gun owner who has a regesterd pistol gives up his guns..he wouldent have ever done anythign wrong but it got taken away anyway, Mr Criminal who has a gun also but guess what its not regestered.. uh-ho! gee I wonder if he will turn in his gun...hmm think now..but guess what! he knows that Mr. Goodguy has give up his guns so Mr Criminal doesent have to worry about breaking into Mr Goodguy's house and maby steal some stuff..hell so what if someones at home he knows they wont have a gun, they are law abiding citizens..they gave em up so that they would be safe right??
so basically
if you make guns illegal, the people who deserve the right to own them and have done nothing wrong will lose them, and the Crininals will not.
A ban on guns is every criminals dream, it would mean protection for them, and they wouldent have to worry about that pesky rape victim pulling a gun on the..at least then they can take their time.
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Wow... you sure put a lot of words in my mouth.
Well so what you are saying is that there is no point in trying to change the criminal, insted just take away whatever they use from EVERYBODY. In other words punish everyone for what the bad minority do?
I believe that I have yet to say "get rid of guns". I've said that without guns there would be no gun violence. I've also stated that irresponsible gun users will be a hazard as long as guns are available in this country. How can these two statements be false?
so basically if you make guns illegal, the people who deserve the right to own them and have done nothing wrong will lose them, and the Crininals will not...
More alarmist NRA propaganda. Pffft. Extrapolated data is seldom correct.
..but to punish everyone for the acts of a few is fundamentally wrong.
Ah... you just say things like this to get me spun up on the drug war. I'm not bitin'.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Oh yeah, I see the solution now.
If a crime is commited by a child (or minor or dependant) using a weapon registered/owned by the parent/legal guardians then its the parents/legal guardians that should take on the FULL brunt of the law.
So yes, Mr. Goodguy who bought a gun and then had his kid take it to school just to show "his cool gun" and accidentally goes off...killing the kid opening his locker down the hallway. Now Mr. Goodguy SHOULD by all rights be FULLY prosecuted for 2nd degree murder. It was HIS gun and HIS responsability for not "using it properly". Fire up ol' sparky, mr. goodguy is about to get BBQ'D.
But hey, the argument is that mr. goodguy bought it to defend his house and loved ones...right?. Having a firearm at home is in the long run far more dangerous to the owner (especially if you have kids) than to the criminal that broke into your home.
Also, isnt there a law requiring that guns kept at home be UNLOADED and have their ammo stored... was it 18ft away from the unloaded gun? Dont remember the exact figure. Unless you live in a very expensive, big home, I dont see how you are going to notice the guy that broke in, scramble to get your gun, load it and then go after the crook. Oh wait, add the fact that this might be in the middle of the night... turning on your light would be quite dumb as it would give you away and blind you for a while... then loading it in the dark... and then hope all those RAMBO and CLINT EASTWOOD movies you saw will help you to shoot the guy that thanks to the construction of the average home in the US is made of cardboard and other non-bullet stopping material AND that the fact that the MAIN BEDROOM is in most cases located on the other side of the house from the other bedrooms where your kids sleep WITHOUT starting a gunfight that might send bullets whizzing all around your house... including through the cardboard walls and into your child's head.
This scenario plays itself out in almost every home with a gun. If you really want your family and house safe, invest in home security. And im not talking about those laughable house alarms. Buy bars for your windows, install steel mesh in your roof, buy VERY good locks, door locks and secure garage openers (you'd be amazed how EASY it is to get the frequency to open someone's garage), METAL doors.
So what will it be? The expensive yet safe home with all these security investments or a cheap gun which you can show off to your beer buddies and inflate your ego with on the gun range?
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Buy bars for your windows, install steel mesh in your roof, buy VERY good locks, door locks and secure garage openers (you'd be amazed how EASY it is to get the frequency to open someone's garage), METAL doors.
Yea why buy a gun to protect yourself, when you can just put your family in a cage?
So yes, Mr. Goodguy who bought a gun and then had his kid take it to school just to show "his cool gun" and accidentally goes off...killing the kid opening his locker down the hallway.
Yea, im sure a dad would buy a gun and then give it to his son and say "here boy take it to school and show em what daddy bought"
Could you conjure up a more UN-REALISTIC scenario..perhaps something with a UFO (not the NIK) perhaps?
here is some statistics that people often overlook when they want to say having a gun in the home is "unsafe"
A: More children are injured buy toys every year than guns.
B: 135 times more children are killed in car accidents than by guns every year on average.
C: more people are severly injured (requiring hospitialization)by kitchen utinsils every year then buy guns in their house.
D: It is more dangerous to have a bicycle than a gun. (assuming yer not a total idiot but then the bike would be even more dangerous)
E: Dogs kill more childern every year on average than are killed due to the child finding a gun in the home and shooting himself/others.
Well lets see here so based on yer idea that having a gun is dangerous..if you want to be "safe" you should not have.
toys
a car
knives spoons or forks
no bike.
no dog
look like a "safe" life would not be a life worth living IMO.
Having a firearm at home is in the long run far more dangerous to the owner (especially if you have kids) than to the criminal that broke into your home.
Only to a family of undereducated, STUPID MORONS, anything is dangersous if you are RETARDED..but saying that a having a criminal break into yer house is SAFER than having a gun in yer house is well...quite possably the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
Im sure if you were awaken in the middle of the night to a stranger breaking yer window and trying to climb in the first thing through yer mind would be "thank god i dont have a gun, those things are dangerous" and considering the circumstances..it just my be yer last.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 03-10-2001).]
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Only 135 more dead due to car accidents?
Thought it'd be more.
Either you got decent stats for child deaths on the freeways, or bad ones with guns.
Other than that, not gonna get involved in this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsanta.tripod.com/stSanta.jpg)
"Live to pull, pull to live"
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Only 135 more dead due to car accidents
135 TIMES the amount, not 135 more.
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Tac, Memorial park cemetary, Gainesville, Ga.
3rd row from entrance, 4th stone name Thomas
Go tell him how the average home defense scenario is supposed to work, I think he'd be quite upset that I didn't play by the rules.
If they ban guns, There will still be guns,
Or has banning anything worked?
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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But hey, the argument is that mr. goodguy bought it to defend his house and loved ones...right?
Possibly. But, there's nothing in the U.S. Constitution that indicates a right to use firearms to defend your house against criminals. No federal court, including the U.S. Supreme Court, has ever overturned a gun control law on the grounds of the Second Amendment.
but saying that a having a criminal break into yer house is SAFER than having a gun in yer house is well...quite possably the stupidest thing ive ever heard.
An Emory University study found that a gun kept in the home was 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt suicide, than to be used in self-defense.
B: 135 times more children are killed in car accidents than by guns every year on average.
Every day, 12 children 19 years of age and under are killed by gunfire. According to a 1997 Center for Disease Control study, the firearms-related death rate for U.S. children under 15 is nearly 12 times higher than that of 25 industrialized countries combined.
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"Only to a family of undereducated, STUPID MORONS, anything is dangersous if you are RETARDED..but saying that a having a criminal break into yer house is SAFER than having a gun in yer house is well...quite possably the stupidest thing ive ever heard."
Oh yes of course. I forgot that my house gets broken into once a week. And I also forgot that children have the maturity of a 30 year year old,college graduate with a good family background when it comes to handling weaponry. Assuming a 5 year old can understand that the gun he's seen dad hide and that he thinks is so cool (just like in the teevee!), is in reality a tool of death (that is, assuming the child is aware he can die).
BTW, in most cases a criminal in your house is not there to kill you, just to steal. Call 911 and tell them that someone is inside your house, im quite sure they will tell you to get out your shotgun and shoot him, 'cause its a lot safer.
My point is wobble, the person that decides how the encounter will go is the house owner. If you oppose the criminal with a firearm, you drastically endager yourself and your family.
Doesnt your house alarm have "panic" buttons? Press it and the alarms start screaming, main lights of the house turn on and the police is automatically notified. Ask the company that makes your alarms if they offer this service, it is very effective.
I just hope you never have any problems with your guns and your kids or the like. I dont keep a weapon at home, seen enough to stay far away from such a poor decision imo.
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Oh.
I must learn to read non selectively (http://members.ams.chello.nl/ptah/batsmile.gif)
Bet we have a lower child death to gun per capita though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<tadaboom>
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://stsanta.tripod.com/stSanta.jpg)
"Live to pull, pull to live"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 03-10-2001).]
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Quote:
" If you oppose the criminal with a firearm, you drastically endager yourself and your family."
Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants.......What do YOU oppose a criminal with?? Your face or your ass???
If EVER i were to point a firearm at a living person, it would mean i intend to shoot that person dead. Basic gun safety Rule #1. Never point your gun at anything you don't want to kill.
BTW, which of you is going to take my Constitutionally permitted firearms away from me?? Oh, i see. You want the GOVERNMENT to kick my front-door in and confiscate them so you will feel "safe".
How Fascist of you.....
Cabby
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BTW, which of you is going to take my Constitutionally permitted firearms away from me??
I bet David Koresh and company felt much the same way before the government took his guns. BTW... the government has much bigger guns than you.
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"Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants"
Again, you are risking too much to protect your belongings. An alarm system with sirens and lights will scare away criminals without the use of firearms. Bu hey, if want to go ahead and risk your family, thats your problem. Just make sure your kids never EVER get your gun. Put a lock on it or something.
"the government has much bigger guns than you." hehe, that beats all those militia right-to-bear-arms lobbyists. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Tac:
"Heh, but not nearly as much as that criminal who is no doubt pissing his pants"
Again, you are risking too much to protect your belongings. An alarm system with sirens and lights will scare away criminals without the use of firearms. Bu hey, if want to go ahead and risk your family, thats your problem. Just make sure your kids never EVER get your gun. Put a lock on it or something.
"the government has much bigger guns than you." hehe, that beats all those militia right-to-bear-arms lobbyists. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
TAC,
You are frankly dead wrong on this. Quite a few criminals know that unless a police cruiser just happens to be in the area and hears the alarm they have at least 2 to 5 minutes before a police officer can get there. It will take almost one full minute just to get the phone dialed into 911 and convince the operator you have a real emergency so they can transfer you to the police phone system to tell your story all over again to them and then wait to have a dispatcher START to call an officer who may or may not be within 5 minutes driving distance. If it is a rural or suburban setting where the Sheriff has jurisdiction it may be up to an hour response time.
Many jurisdictions do not allow direct dialing of a panic or burglar alarm into the police due to the frequent false alarms. The usual procedure is the alarm company gets the alarm, they then call the house to check on things. If there is no answer then they call the police who will roll on it as a single alarm. Not with lights and siren but as normal traffic, especially for an audible alarm.
Here is another take on this. If you are dealing with someone who has done any planning they know almost all alarms can be deactivated by pulling the main power switch on the house. These are usually located outside and accessible to the street.
If you think that a police officer is going to save you during a home invasion you are very mistaken. There is simply too much area to cover and too few officers. The police will get there and take the report AFTER the fact on much more than 90% of the cases.
If you think that I am wrong guess again. I was in that business. I responded to the calls and took the reports. I also started more than one homicide investigation by myself as there was no one available to help. It was real fun rolling on a strangling homicide from a sector adjacent to mine because there was no one to go on it in either sector except for me and I was an off duty traffic officer at the time. That young woman was killed in a motel room that had an occupied room next to and below it at 6:00 PM. The killer's pastor was the one that reported it after the killer drove to the church and confessed to the clergyman.
You don't want a gun to protect your family, that is your choice. You know your limitations better than anyone else. I know that you cannot depend on an alarm, cell phone, regular phone or nearby police officer to be able to hold off a home invader before any negative action has been taken against you or your family. You will be on your own until help can arrive provided you ever get the chance to call for help.
I was a street officer facing a man in a public park with a knife that just tried to stab me. I had a direct radio to backup. It took my backup over 2 minutes WITH lights and sirens to get to me in daylight, downtown 3 blocks from the main station. Know this, no cop tries harder to get there than on an officer needs help call.
I sincerely hope you never have this happen to you or yours.
Mav
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Quote:
"I bet David Koresh and company felt much the same way before the government took his guns. BTW... the government has much bigger guns than you."
Did you get-off watching all those children burn alive? Do you fantasize Janet Reno in an SS uniform as well?
Yep, the government has MUCH bigger guns than i do. But i have the Constitution and the Rule of Law on my side. Despite the efforts of the corrupt scumbags that held power in the USA the for the last 8 years.
And i also have the right to vote which i exercise diligently to defeat Socialists, Leftists, Liberals, and any other Big Brother/Big Government-loving politicians whenever i can.
BTW, i think it was Patrick Henry who said: "Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death".
My sentiments exactly.
Cabby
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Or has banning anything worked?
You're dead right. How about legalising hard drug taking, prostitution, paedophilia - the're all banned and still occur, so what's the point of criminalising them?
I'm sure the world would be a much better place if we could all do exactly what we want to anyone, anyplace and anywhere.
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I like to stay out of these things, but a squadie and I have been talking about it. Here is what I feel.
So I ask, is the problem that I want to own guns, or is it that so many people are being murdered and many of them by guns? (According to the FBI's 1998 Uniform Crime Reports, there were 16,914 murders in the US. 9,143 of these involved firearms )
If the real problem the latter, then it shouldn't matter if I want to own one gun or a bunch. So, the real question is, how do we reduce the number of murders (after all, why not try and reduce all of them, not just gun deaths)?
The two cities in the US with the highest per capita murder rates are Baltimore, MD at 47.1 per 100,000 and Washington DC at 49.7 per 100,000 (source: FBI's 1998 Uniform Crime Reports). Now I can also tell you that these cities have some of the most restrictive and constrictive gun control laws in the nation. (Detroit, New York and Philadelphia also rank up there)
This tells me that gun control regulations don't work. Or at least they haven't yet. Which means to me that more isn't going to help things. So where to from here? (I realize that we can argue over this, but you can't say there is no connection between these facts)
So let me offer two propositions:
ONE:
Today in Tennessee, a man went to court for a child-custody hearing against his estranged wife. Very few more highly charged emotional situations exist. Well, this man lost his hearing and custody of his kids. So he walked out to his car, got a shotgun and waited for his wife. When she and her friend walked out, he shot and killed both of them (not sure why he killed the friend, he must have felt she was also somehow responsible for what happened). Then he reloaded and shot their bodies until he was out of ammunition again. He got in his car and drove off.
Why do I mention this? To underline the fact that as long as people have been on this earth, people have made the decision to commit the ultimate act of violence. And for whatever reason, this man made that decision. From this I feel that two things can be assumed. First, he either thought he might or knew he was going to loose this hearing. This explains why he brought the gun to court. And from this I feel we can safely assume that he planned on killing his wife if he lost the hearing. More gun control would not have stopped this. It would not have mattered if he'd had to use a gun, knife, hammer, weedwacker or his Buick. He was going to kill this woman. In other words, there are situations and times when, even if we magically made all the world's guns disappeared, violent acts would happen.
How do I know this is a fact? Well, while we've read all about the teen in San Diego who, after feeling like he'd had enough, took a .22 pistol to school, shot 4 people and wounded several others. However, this has overshadowed the events here in Northern California of a week earlier. A teen who, feeling like he'd had enough, took his car and ran into a group of students at a bus stop. He killed four people and wounded several others. Some people are going to kill and there is nothing you can do about it. All the laws in the world wont stop it.
But, you say, sure there are going to be murders that more gun control can't stop. But what about all the killings in places like Washington and New York City? What to you propose we do about that? Well, here is what I propose,
SECOND:
Let me preface this by saying that in my time at law school I've worked for the US Attorney's Office prosecuting misdemeanors, including drug offenses. Right now I'm working for the San Francisco DA's office. And I'm helping prepare the prosecution of a murder case where the defendant was a habitual drug user and was one a three day meth-amphetimine binge when he beat his girlfriend's head in. My father is a Asst. County Attorney in Arizona and has worked with the SouthWestern Border Alliance which is a multi-departmental organization fighting drugs in Arizona, California and New Mexico. Of his two best friends, one is a DEA agent and the other is getting ready to retire from the US Customs service. Both of these men have spent their lives as local and government law enforcement officers. All of us have been, in one way or another, on the "front lines" of the drug war. And they all feel the same way I do.
The biggest cause of crime in the US and the biggest waste of our money is the "Drug War". The US spends over $30 billion every year on this rat hole. A Asst. Dist Attorney I work with said it best, "If they could show me that just 70% of the drugs on their way to our streets is being stopped, I'd say it was worth it. But they can't. If more than 6% of the drugs bound for the US are stopped, I'd be suprised."
Now what does this have to do with gun crimes here in the US (what it has to do with the amount of money used to fund para-military police forces and crime in third world countries is a whole other subject. See: Why the War on Drugs has Failed)? Simple.
Do you know that the US has seen per capita murder rates just as high as the 1980's and 90's? Yep, during the 1920's and early thirties. An average of 8.27 murders per 100,000 from 1920-34 and 9.48 per 100,000 for 1980-94 (National Center for Health Statistics, Vital Statistics, Revised, July 1999). Now what do these two periods of time have in common? A war on drugs. A war on booze and a war on cocaine. The fact that criminal elements had taken control of a major aspect of society and were willing to kill to keep it. One war the government was forced to admit has failed, one it is afraid to.
So here is my contention. End the War on Drugs and you will reduce violence as a whole and as a part of that, gun violence. I'm willing to bet cash money that gun violence would be reduced by 70%.
Look back at the amount of money the government wastes on the Drug War. $30 billion dollars every year. Hell, place drugs under the FDA and make sure they're quality. Right there you save money on bad trips ending up in the hospital (which cost the taxpayers). Then tax the bejeezus out of it the same way we do booze and cigarettes. Make it illegal for people under 21. Can you imagine the amount of money you'd make?
Think about what that money could be used for. Billions of dollars for schools for the improvised inner cities where most of this violence takes place. Better schools and education. Give these kids something else to do besides shoot each other over turf and drugs. Pay for rehab and prevention. Right now most of the prevention and rehab centers are paid for by taxpayers. And they are underfunded to the point of being almost ineffectual. Pay for daycare and healthcare. Pay for programs to teach skills. Give these kids some hope for the future. A place to belong besides the gang. Pay for more teachers and counselors and maybe things like Columbine and San Diego might be prevented.
You do that and you reduce the feeling these kids have that they must kill to prove themselves. Or to pay for their drugs. Or gain acceptance by their gang. It is the only way. And when you've done that, you've reduced the amount of violence period. Because, while school shootings get the headlines, the real problem is in the inner cities. Reduce the violence there and you'll see a huge reduction across the board.
I'll say this again, you legalize drugs (and control them) and you'll reduce violence, including gun violence, by 70%. And if we do that we wouldn't be having this conversation because it wouldn't matter if I had guns or not.
Let me leave you with one thought. Never in the history of mankind has a disease been cured by attacking the symptom. You may hide it. You may even help people forget it's there. But it will never be cured that way. Ever. It will continue to be a problem until it kills you.
You must attack the cause. Or else you waste your time
PS, this is a follow-up post to the one above:
On June 6, 1998, a surprising letter was delivered to Kofi Annan, secretary general of the United Nations. "We believe," the letter declared, "that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself."
The letter was signed by statesmen, politicians, academics and other public figures. Former UN secretary general Javier Perez de Cuellar signed. So did George Shultz, the former American secretary of state, and Joycelyn Elders, the former American surgeon general. Nobel laureates such as Milton Friedman and Argentina's Adolfo Perez Esquivel added their
names. Four former presidents and seven former cabinet ministers from Latin American countries signed. And several eminent Canadians were among the signatories.
The drug policies the world has been following for decades are a destructive failure, they said. Trying to stamp out drug abuse by banning drugs has only created an illegal industry worth $400 billion U.S. "or roughly eight per cent of international trade." The letter continued: "This industry has empowered organized criminals, corrupted governments at all levels, eroded internal security, stimulated violence, and distorted both economic markets and moral values." And it concluded that these were the consequences "not of drug use per se, but of decades of failed and futile drug war policies."
- Source: United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking
The actual number spent by the Federal Government domestically to fight drugs is 19.2 billion (Source: Office of National Drug Control Policy)
Then you throw in $273,841,000 that was given to other countries by the State Department (http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/nrcrpt/2000/index.cfm?docid=887)
Plus $8 billion spent on drug offenders in prision (a whole generation of black Americans) - (Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, Profile of Jail Inmates 1996) Now realize that this number is 5 years old, so that it may be up to $10 billion.
So that adds up to roughly $30 billion. Which is still a hell of a lot of money. Right now the Department of Education's budget is $38 billion (Source: US Dept of Education Budget Office)
So what you end up with is the US Government almost spends as much on the drug war as it does on education.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Originally posted by cabby:
But i have the Constitution and the Rule of Law on my side.
I've said it once... I'll repeat:
No federal court, including the U.S. Supreme Court, has ever overturned a gun control law on the grounds of the Second Amendment.
Did you get-off watching all those children burn alive? Do you fantasize Janet Reno in an SS uniform as well?
Wow... another stretch and failed attempt to put words in my mouth. The point is, if the government wishes to focus its complete and undivided attention on you with all the military might available to the law enforcement agencies, YOU WILL LOSE. As for Janet Reno... I like her. She has done more in this country for women's rights than anyone I can think of in recent history.
BTW... excellent post, Dune. My sentiments exactly.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 03-11-2001).]