Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: AKFokerFoder+ on May 08, 2005, 04:32:29 PM
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I haven't been able to play AH for almost 3 months. (work)
And now that it is summer, well Alaska is all about fishing :)
Earlier this year, I had tried to change from the 190A8 to something better, but nothing seems to fit my style of flying like the A8.
I came back in and tried the 190A8, but the frontal views are a great dissapointment. I can't shoot what I can't see.
I have been taking up the Jug a bit, it seems to have some A8-like attributes:
Good fuel capacity
Very Good firepower (not as good as A8 but very impressive)
Excelent views, no comparision with the new no-frontal view of the A8
The Jug is an excellent diver, and seems to handle adequately at speed.
Both seem to have excellent retention of e, and fairly close on deck speeds.
It doesn't roll like a 190, which is a critical component of the A8's mindblowing high speed manueverablity. The ability to almost instantly change lift vectors has saved my backside more times than I can count.
It does have high speed flaps that I am sure could be put to good use.
How tough is the Jug? the A8 is tougher than a bus station steak.
I flew about 5 or 6 sorties so far this weekend. A couple of not so good ones in the A8, 1 in the F6F, and the rest in the Jug. If the F6F had rear views, I would fly it a lot. But the Jug brought home the bacon. I got at least 1 scalp per sortie, and had a 4 kill no vulch sortie.
All in all, it seems to be a plane that can be flown very much like a 190A8.
But the Jug is ugly as a picked-chicken.
When you've been dating a fast, beautiful chick with long legs, sleek lines, and a razor toten' mean attitude, And now you find your self out on the town with an ugly chick with long legs. :(
Well, I guess as long as she gets me kills, and gets me home,...
Any comments on flying the Jug?
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first of all.. one more dis on the jugs appearance and i will mark you as a target and hunt you down for a month, the jug is one of the prettiest planes ever made!
now for your questions, here is my take of the P47 vrs the 190
maneuverability: the jug turns much batter then the 190a8, although it rolls slower, it is more stable and the flaps help alot in pulling tighter circles.
speed and acceleration: the jug is faster in level flight, but the 190 will accelerate much batter, when diving the jug have a clear advantage.
firepower and armour: both planes are tough, very tough. firepower is more of a personal taste, the 190 packs more punch but its harder to land hits, the p47 allso packs an impressive punch and its much easier to land hits at greater ranges like 400-600 yards.
so it depends on your taste.
climb: depends on ammo load, the moddel of the P47 and fuel, but usually the 190 has the edge.
a nice bonus for the 190 is the long period you can use WEP. the jug heats up pretty fast, and its vital when things get complicated.
all in all, very similar planes and IMHO one of the best matchups in the game.
i would love to run a few 1vrs1 jug vrs 190. if you want, its always a good fight. :)
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To date, the only plane that I've successfully performed scissors in (success meaning I got a con that was 400 to 1.xK, and was able to get distance and re-engage as I wanted) has been the 190. It's that roll rate. In any other plane you can perform scissors. But you just go back and forth. You don't present the opportunity to gain a LOT of distance and save yer own butt. When the con is close and you have somewhat decent speed (maybe 175 but 200+ better) roll sideways and pull (gently now, it's a 190). Look over your rear shoulder. Once the plane starts settling into the turn immediately roll 190 and, carefully, pull a smidgen harder in the opposite direction. The tail may try a snapshot but usually it flounders for a second rolling hard, trying to prevent an overshoot, and pulling hard to turn with you, then do once it almost settles in do the same again but hit full wep and once you have cut across its nose level out and get speed at full wep.
Like an overshoot works best when the con is close (600 has worked for me). Hopefully it leaves the enemy (usually a spit5) too slow from all the pulling and slowing down, and you can outaccelerate it.
One other thing about the A8. Like many planes it out runs the SpitV! :)
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Originally posted by Flyboy
first of all.. one more dis on the jugs appearance and i will mark you as a target and hunt you down for a month, the jug is one of the prettiest planes ever made!
Well, I guess I'll just keep my opinions about aethetics to myself :D
I surely would fly one on one in the training arena. I would point out that I really suck one on one, but I'm not a bunny newbie either.
I just want a plane that has the following characteristics. Darn near like a spec sheet for the A8, except for the new views.
Lotsa fuel, I want to get up on perch and stay there, dive down, and get back up there.
I want to hit hard, fast, and either kill or disengage in less than 20 seconds.
I want lots of punch in my guns package.
I want excellent views, you can't have SA if you have significant blind spots.
I want good energy retention, and on the deck speed, for attacking and egress.
I want good handling in the dive and at speed, I don't want it to compress at medium speeds.
I want it to have enough agility to get keep me alive for at least 2 minutes, should I find myself with a bogey on my six. Within 2 minutes, you are either dead, or someone else has bagged the bogey on your six.
If I get myself in a situation where I am over 2 minutes from help, I deserve to die :)
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Fly the A8 and stop being a wuss.
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Originally posted by Virage
Fly the A8 and stop being a wuss.
I had a one on one with a LA7 tonight, probably not the best LA7 driver by a long shot, he tried to run me down on my egress. I then shook him off my six, shot him up a bit, and disengaged. My mistake, I should have stayed with him, for he came back at me, and eventually set my engine on fire. I burned to death, I think.
I have to remember that in one on ones' agression is your only hope.
Still, the A8 has charm, but I will stick with the Jug for a bit. I may even get to like it's looks. Kinda like dating a cross-eyed girl, if she has long legs and gives you a good ride, like who notices?
I have noticed that the Jugs' guns package seems frightfully deadly. And your lead for a firing solution is substancially less than with the A8.
As for being a Wuss, well thats what we were called in my Grandpa's day. Nowadays we wusses' are called "Sensitive Males" :rofl :rofl
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1 vs 1, I'd bet on the Jug everytime.
Multi vs multi, it'd be pretty close, but I'd bet on the 190A-8.
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i dont agree with you Kweassa. if the 190 start playing in the vertical it can end pretty quick.
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But the Jug is ugly as a picked-chicken.
When you've been dating a fast, beautiful chick with long legs, sleek lines, and a razor toten' mean attitude, And now you find your self out on the town with an ugly chick with long legs.
hew????!
The 190 is like a sickly thin heroin addicted girl, while the Jug is a healthy babe with nice... well... jugs :)
Good fuel capacity
Carefull with that. It isn't so simple with the jug. It eats through this extremely large fuel load like crazy when at full throttle. So you actually just get average range and a VERY fuel heavy plane. To get something out of this fuel load in terms of range and endurance you have to manage your RPM/MAN settings.
Remember that with light fuel load it has better wingloading than the 190A8 and will out turn it easily. Too bad this phase of the flight lasts so little. On the other hand, try to fly it with 100% and you won't turn with a B17.
Bozon
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Nowadays we wusses' are called "Sensitive Males" :rofl :rofl
Ok, Ok.. But no hugging.
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Originally posted by bozon
hew????!
The 190 is like a sickly thin heroin addicted girl, while the Jug is a healthy babe with nice... well... jugs :)
Carefull with that. It isn't so simple with the jug. It eats through this extremely large fuel load like crazy when at full throttle. So you actually just get average range and a VERY fuel heavy plane. To get something out of this fuel load in terms of range and endurance you have to manage your RPM/MAN settings.
Remember that with light fuel load it has better wingloading than the 190A8 and will out turn it easily. Too bad this phase of the flight lasts so little. On the other hand, try to fly it with 100% and you won't turn with a B17.
Bozon
As for your first comment, I would like point out that "Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder" :D
And thank you for your comments on fuel management.
I usually take off with 75% and a drop tank. I fight with the drop tank until it is empty, and I often leave it on to increase drag so as to control speed in a dive. I drop the tank when I feel I need to decrease my drag for either fighting, climbing or running like a scalded dawg.
It would seem that the Jug has a bit more capacity for staying and slugging it out than the 190. Not much more, but any edge is an edge.
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Just as a thought, I suppose leaving a drop tank on during a high speed dive may be gaming the game?
I would imagine that there is an upper speed limit on drop tanks, that if exceeded, they would rip off. I am not sure they would do much damage to the plane, as they are designed to drop off, but having them rip off would certainly seem to be less than optimal. I would imagine that they were designed to rip off without doing much damage to the aircraft. I would certainly beleive that in the heat of battle, more than one pilot has unknowingly dived with the drop tanks on and had them rip off.
Pure ignorance in the above statements, any comments?
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Re: P47 vs 190... 190 always is a better ride. The only advantage that the Jug has is the super flaps that allow it to float as gentle as a butterfly at 70mph with nose up (lmao). But most USAAF planes have those flaps.
Also consider the jug is a HUGE bellybutton target. 190 is harder to hit. But the 190 has a fragile fuselage. Take a solid hit and WHAM no tail left.
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After readig this thread, I'm disheartened to see that the Thunderbolt is still not given the highest roll rate of the European Theater planes. Those who flew it said that the roll rate of the Jug gave a manuever advantage over the FW and Bf.
It was never a low alt. dogfighter, but ..........oh well.
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The d11 will eat the 190a8's lunch, mostly due to the fact the d11 has great initial turn.. (it just feels tight.. all around.. very little floundering..)
the fatter slower p47's are even steven in my book vs the a8 for the reasons most touched on above..(both have str's and weakness just a matter who exploits who first..)
be careful with the d11 though.. excellent dogfighter above 8k.. (at 8k can outdive about anything.. for shorterm..)
Also on a scissors the p47 works just as well as a a8 becuase your displacing more air when your turn.. (even with the slower roll..) throw in a barrel roll and its overshoot city..
DoctorYo
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Current AH P47s (any) retain E much MUCH better than current AH 190A8 or F8, doesnt matter whether vertical or horizontal.
Currently, a P47D40 has a better climb rate (and level acceleration) over 190A8 (both with 50% fuel, 6 mgs vs 4x20mm) at any alt above 2k, being equal up to 2k. The P47 retains a climb rate over 3500 up to 12k, the 190A8 reaches 3500 fpm as soon as 2k.
All in all, an AH P47D40 is better or equal than an AH 190A8 at any alt.
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Foder would you like my views for F6F?
i don't understand when everyone talks about the bad 6 view...my view is just fine or maybe i'm just that used to it
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Chicks dig gullwings.
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Originally posted by Wadke
Foder would you like my views for F6F?
i don't understand when everyone talks about the bad 6 view...my view is just fine or maybe i'm just that used to it
Sure would :)
email jbuettner@gci.com
Thanks :)
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After readig this thread, I'm disheartened to see that the Thunderbolt is still not given the highest roll rate of the European Theater planes. Those who flew it said that the roll rate of the Jug gave a manuever advantage over the FW and Bf.
Then those who flew them would be wrong.
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I have the Training tapes for the P 47, and as regards the make the point many times that the Aux tankage MUST be burned off first, saying that the CG improvement is needed for air to air combat. other than that I allmost never take the full ammo load, and some times only take the 6 - .50 option......
Gunns
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if you going to take only 6 guns.. just take a P51.
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Ive flown the P47D25 exclusivly as of late and totally fallen in love.
I really liked the F6F, which I flew before but the jug is just love on a completely different level. Its actually kind of a F6F Senior. Bigger and meaner F6F while still retaining the two best things about the F6F (flaps and rudder).
The most amazing thing about the P47 is how damn well it manouvers.
Most Fighter Jugs you see in the MA are BnZers exclusivly. Such a waste.
If you use the vertical aspect, flaps, rudder and work on your e retention the Jug will own everything the MA can throw at it.
In all planes Ive dedicated my self to learn there has always been some plane that Ive struggled against but in the Jug I really cant find any enemies that cant be dealt with in ease.
One of the slight problems though is the 190 A5. Thats the only of the 190s that can cause me some problems. The A8 is a nobrainer though as the Jug can outmanouver it so easily.
Thing is so many people under estimate the powers of the jug. You really need to commit 100% to a Jug that tries to E fight you but most dont because they just expect a BnZer.
Another plane that *could* cause the jug problems but Ive still not ran into any problems is the P38s (espcially the J model). But reason to not have ran into problems with 38s is yet again under estimation. Ive fought 38 a few occations where they have not extended their flaps till they realize "ohh **** what is that jug doing" and that is a tad to late.
Imho the Jug is one of THE best planes in the game. But you have to know how to use flaps, use rudder and how to conserve as much E as possible while yet beeing agressive.
A good way to learn the Jug is to first learn the F6F. Before I learned the F6F I had no clue what to do in a jug. After the F6F was learned the transition to the jug was VERY smooth.
Tex
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My only problem with your statement is that in reality nobody would have been using flaps in combat. Those that did only used 1 notch, but in AH2 we have over-modeled 5-notches during a furball BS type-o'-stuff :)
Yes, I use them too, but it's all gaming the game, not flying the plane. If you take away that uber-flappage, to the point you only have 1 notch during combat, then the P47 loses that edge and the FW190 starts owning it (like in WW2)
Note: at mid alts. At high alts, 47 was king!
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Tex:
Why the 25 and not the 30 model? Isn't the 30 more powerful, and have better views?
Is the 11 model more manuveable?
I was in a P47-30 last night, and took out a co alt Pony-D. We met on the merge at about 18K. I totally owned him. I was above him from the meger on. We fought for about 4 minutes before I got him, but I lost a elevator in a bump. Another Pony-D had joined by this time (like you really get a 1 on 1 in the MA). I darn near could stay with him with only 1 elevator. I kept dragging him down, right to our base.
I had him low slow(under 200 knots), but on my six for about 2 minutes at our base, and not one of the Knights at the base engaged him until after I was in the dirt. Which goes to show you that you can not depend on others to clear your six. No dis on the other players, it was just amazing that no one else picked him up as an easy kill. For some reason, I don't think they saw him. Anyway, I sat in the tower and watched him get dog piled by the Knights, so he died. My vox was out BTW keeping me from calling for help.
I think the Jug is underrated, and I am going to stick with it for a while for sure :)
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Heathen!!!! :P
Turn back to the Luftwaffe ways, my brother! :P
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@AKFokerFoder
You know I cant say WHY the 25 feels better then the 30. There aint much difference to them but there is "something" there which gives it a much better feel. Might be that I do like the fact that its a bit more unstable.
The views are the same, it does have a bouble cannopy.
The D11 with its horrible views is still a very nice plane. It indeed is more manouverable and faster, good combo, but it lacks the HP and hence the accelleration for my taste.
And yeah one of the planes that the jug owns the most is the pony. The pony cant bleed E nearly as fast as the jug can and thats what kills it.
@Krusty.
I dont use all 5 notches. I use 1-2 notches with 3 when Im going for the shot. While I *could* use the 3rd much much more plus the 4th and 5th as well I dont really see the point of using them as they bleed too much speed.
I do go 4-5 in one situation and that is slow extream scissors.
I dont really have a clue on how the flaps are over modelled though... is it?
*give too much lift
*give too little drag
*can be deployed at too high speed
Or a combo of all of em?
Tex
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Originally posted by Krusty
Heathen!!!! :P
Turn back to the Luftwaffe ways, my brother! :P
The Jug is calling me,....
I can hear it
"FokerFoder"... "I am your father..."
"feel the power of the Dark Side..."
"Together we can rule the Universe"
Resistance is futile :(
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I dont claim Im any master of the jug... only flown it for like 2-3 weeks and only played AH for like 8 or so months... so Im pretty sure there is a ton more to squeze out of it then Im able to.. but this shows relativly well how much vertical there is in a jug...
http://www.riha.nu/ah/JugJug3.ahf
Tex
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I do find the ability to deploy manuvering flaps gives you a decided edge. I used to fly the Pony D a lot.
Only two planes gave me a fit in the Pony D. The Jug and the P38. The P38 imho is one mean machine in the hands of good stick. I never fight a P38 one on one, period.
I will try the 25 model. Instability in a fighter plane is a good thing. The thing that made the Fokker DR-1 such a deadly dog-fighter was the fact that it was unstable in all three axis. The Sopwith Camel had some of the same problems, and that is what made it so deadly.
As for Krusty's point, I never feared a Jug when I flew the 190A8. The only plane that was the bane of the A8 was an A5, Dora, a Pony, or the LA7. I am not talking one on one here, I am talking MA type of flying/fighting.
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P47 is one of the many Allied planes that have received significantly enhanced performance characteristics over time, while the LW birds haven't changed at all. Go figure.
I'm sure old schoolers remember how poorly the P38/P51/P47 compared to the super planes they are now. Why didn't the LW get any of those magic enhancements?? And why is the Ta 152 still porked?
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Originally posted by Mime
P47 is one of the many Allied planes that have received significantly enhanced performance characteristics over time, while the LW birds haven't changed at all. Go figure.
I'm sure old schoolers remember how poorly the P38/P51/P47 compared to the super planes they are now. Why didn't the LW get any of those magic enhancements?? And why is the Ta 152 still porked?
Simple answer... US development company...
Thing is there will never be unbiased plane modeling... planes are modelled based on historical recordings and history is written to enchace the power of the one writing history.... history will never be unbiased... hence models in historical games will never be based on unbiased information.. that information beeing interpreted by humans (always biased towards something by nature) so things will never be correct....
Tex
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Why the 25 and not the 30 model? Isn't the 30 more powerful, and have better views?
the D25 is the prettiest
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I am not a LW afficienado, nor an American plane buff.
I just want to fly a competative airplane in the MA that isn't one of the uber models.
Read;
LA7
PonyD
Dora
Niki
I want to fly that plane consistantly in order to know it's envelope. It is better to fly a lesser plane well, than a better plane poorly.
The old A8 was pretty nice, and fit my flying style extremely well. I am finding the Jug to also be a nice fit, as it has many simular characteristics to the A8.
Some would even call the Jug pretty. But then some would probably call Hilary Clinton pretty also. Although personally I have never had that much to drink.
All in all for what my opinion is worth, it would seem that the 190's are undermodelled.
Certainly the new views are far from being optimal.
And from what little I have read, the 190 would shove you way back in your seat in a dive. It's roll rate was from all accounts unreal.
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A plane that is off that beaten track and does improve you as a pilot alot is the F6F.
There is no one way to success in it like there is in the fast ones (lalas, ponies, 190s, tiffies) and the slow ones (spitV, zekke and hurrie).
You have to treat each situation differently and constantly maximizing your planes performance.
You will either learn to use flaps and rudder to a new level or you will struggle.
It really is great plane.
Then ofcourse so is the jug.. ;)
Tex
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AKOwl flies the F6F like no one I have seen.
Like all US planes, it suffers from not having cannons. (the C Hog being the exception).
I find the 6 gun package to be a bit weak for someone of my gunnery skills.
However, the 8 gun package of the Jug is pretty effective in a snap shot situation on fighters. You definately lose performance in the Jug by taking 8 guns. I.e., the roll rate seems less. And it is heavier. But for me the added effectiveness of the firepower more than makes up for the performance hit. Like the in the A8, where I took the 4 - 20mm package.
I don't like the rear view of the F6F, I feel to vulnerable in what is the most critical area of SA: your mid-low six. I spend more time looking at my six than my 12. I am constantly scanning with my hat switch, and rolling to check my low 6. It is in the massive furballs where you need to see as soon as a bogey starts to line you up, not when he is D600. I often shake bogeys that start to line me up at 1.5K or greater by showing them, (or at least deluding them into thinking) that I am in a higher e state than I am. Also, alerting them to the fact that I know they are there, they will often break off and look for an easier kill.
In the F6F, I often don't see them until they are D600, and comitted to their attack. Which means I then have to go into defensive manuevers that bleed more enegry, making me a target for more bogeys, I bleed more speed, add more bogeys, then add a walk back to the hangar.
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Re: uberflappage comment
I don't think the speeds are wrong. There's been enough jawing on these forums for the past 2 years about flap speeds. I think the lift is way too efficient, and the drag way too light. At more than 2 notches the flaps are more like a speed brake than a lift enhancer. At full flaps they are almost a 90-degree tangent from the bottom of the wing! How in the hell does that make you turn tighter than a spit? Should make you spin out uncontrollably if you're anything more than 10-degrees from flat level.
My $0.04 (2 about the efficiency, 2 about the drag).
Re: 190 speed: It's fast enough to out run SpitVs. I don't know, but it seems to top out in the lower 300s (non-wep). Decent, but could be better. Make a dive and you pass 400 easy. And then retain it for a while, too!
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Some pretty intresting points on the flaps Krusty. Perhaps they are overmodeled.???
I only use 1 notch for ACM, sometime (but rarely) 2, unless of course I am trying to slam on the brakes to force an overshoot.
I like the flaps for landings, I use about all the flap I can to get it to stop fast.
BTW, I flew the Jug again tonight. Only time for one sortie, I had some big honey do's to do, and tomorrow I fly up to Fairbanks and north for two days.
Hope to be back for Friday.
I did get an LA7. Shot the kee rap out of a B24, got it smoking, and when it went down, I didn't even get an assist. Same thing with a Spit I hit, no assist. Not sure what was with that. But I survied an attack by a higher Pony D, and got out of the way of a Niki.
I am really thinking this Jug may be a hidden jem.
But I do miss my A8. Not sure what it is that I like so much about that plane. But it is pretty as a rose in spring, faster than a $2 pistol, and meaner than my ex-wifes mother.
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Originally posted by Mime
P47 is one of the many Allied planes that have received significantly enhanced performance characteristics over time, while the LW birds haven't changed at all.
That`s news. No, wait a minute, it`s just a silly belief.
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Have to agree... While the USAAF planes *did* get a super boost of usefulness with the flaps (I miss AH1 flappage), the LW rides got boosts as well. First the 109s got much increased roll rates, and better elevator control (so it seems to me, anyways) -- essentially they could turn inside of a mile's turning radius now :rofl
And just recently with the 190s we got a more stable ride. It seems that some of the instabilities are gone at low(er) speeds. The rest seems the same (roll, climb, speed, etc) but that instability problem was a big one, and now it seems to be gone. So a small change but an important one.
LW rides have been getting updated too. Just on a different schedule than the other planes.
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The later model FWs had a lot of frontal armor for the pilot and the engine, to protect them from the B17s gunners.
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Originally posted by Krusty
First the 109s got much increased roll rates, and better elevator control (so it seems to me, anyways) -- essentially they could turn inside of a mile's turning radius now :rofl
Try going into the vertical. With a well executed yo-yo I can turn a G10 under 3/4 of a mile (with less than 1/4 tank of fuel, flaps at the top, no gondolas, and proper throttle management). :lol