Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on May 11, 2005, 03:26:17 PM
-
Inspired to me by Nuke...
What would happen if all the images of jesus and mary were changed to reflect their true historical appearance. Which was probably lower class and middle eastern?
IE, what would all the Catholics do if Mary looked like this:
(http://www.worldpress.org/images/121103pal.jpg)
How much weight do the various sects of christianity put in the belief that jesus and mary were middle class and white?
-
time to get a cold one. lol this oughta be good for so many reasons. lol
-
One step away from shutting down all religious threads. They all seem to denegrate into something uglier than my mother-in-law.
-
i got along good with my in-laws, better than with my wife....lol
-
I did not say I do not get along with her. I do. But it does not make her look any better.
-
Any denomination of Christian that actually believes that is either misguided or just plain silly. Most of those images are based on paintings by European artists hundreds of years ago, based mostly on the image found on the Shroud of Turin. They tended to Anglicize him somewhat, and the convention just carried over. It's pretty much an accepted fact that while the basic features are probably close, skin tone would be nothing like caucasian.
-
It's a valid question Skuzzy. Modern Christians bear the weight of several various bits of junk the Europeans tossed in over the years to make it more palatable to the general population and win over pagans. Doesnt make the core any less real, or valid, and sometimes the modern conventions do have a purpose to help make things more relevant to us today. The uninitiated are totally right to question, as long as they have an open mind and are willing to be convinced.
-
Looks do not mean a thing in our faith. We are all created in the image of God.
-
She may well have looked very much like that woman. No big deal. BTW does anyone recall that Afghani woman that was on the cover of Nationa Geographic years ago? Just because they are from that part of the world doesn't mean they are homely.
-
Wouldnt matter to me and Im Catholic.
might rile up some of our southern catholics arent christian friends.
Yeah some middle eastern women are hot. which makes me wonder why they cover them up. Oh yeah they got camels
-
With sincere apologies to Skuzzy...
The fact that we will never be able to accurately represent Jesus and Mary, and the fact that we inevitably remold them in our own image, was only one of the many reasons that the early church did not make Icons and Images of them. Certainly the apostolic church didn't, and they at least knew what they looked like. It is possibly because the inspired Apostles knew our tendency towards idolatry that they didn't leave behind a single physical description of Christ or his mother from which we could construct a portrait.
I wrote some time ago:
"the only wise God went to great lengths not to leave us with any description of the physical appearance of His Son lest we fall into the sin of image making. Therefore all of our representations of Jesus are inevitably speculations usually based upon our own desires. We create an image of Jesus that says more about the Jesus we want than the Jesus whom God sent.
For instance, isn't it remarkable that the Jesus of The Passion of the Christ, as in almost all physical representations of Christ, is tall, slim, and handsome? Why should not The Son of David (Luke 18:38) have been a relatively small man like His great ancestor? It never seems to have occurred to most image-makers that Jesus could be relatively short, or stout, or even have had a receding hairline. This is in spite of the fact that one of the few details the Bible does give us about Christ's appearance is that "He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him." (Is. 53:2b) The fact that we have any concept of what Jesus looks like and that Gibson's Jesus looks like the traditional Jesus, is a testament to the abiding impact of past iconography. While the Gospels, purposely leave out any description of Jesus that we might use to construct an idol, people have created an image of Jesus that has become almost an industry standard, and it is solely for that reason rather than any basis in fact that audiences would have been outraged had Gibson cast Danny DeVito and not James Caviezel in the leading role. "
and...
"Jesus is the Lord of the Nations. In Him the middle wall of separation is decisively broken down and "there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free." When we make a picture of Christ we inevitably portray him as representative of one race or another. Mel Gibson's Jesus, for instance, is obviously very white. We have once again created a false Jesus that one race can feel comfortable with. He is "one of us." While this is comforting to members of that particular race, it is inevitably irritating to people of other cultures and can actually be a barrier to communicating the gospel to other nations and races. As a result of all the images of the Scandinavian Hippy that westerners have called Jesus, there has been an inevitable backlash and now images of Asian, Middle-Eastern, African, etc. Jesus' are being demanded, and these counter-images offend many Westerners. "That's not Jesus!" they angrily proclaim, because they know what Jesus looks like - they've been seeing images of him since they were children. He's tall, and blond, has a beard and a vaguely sorrowful expression.
The sad thing about this whole argument over what Jesus looked like is that it is so needless. The Apostolic church turned the whole world upside-down via the preaching of the Gospel. Not once did they use pictures of Jesus. What would Peter or Paul say coming into one of our churches and seeing one of our many images of Jesus? Obviously they wouldn't recognize it as the image of the Savior they knew. Wouldn't they assume that this was yet another example of the kind of Hellenistic idolatry they were so familiar, "Men of America, I perceive that in all things you are very religious..."* Aren't we best served proclaiming the gospel of a Christ who is too glorious to be portrayed as a mere man from any one race?"
- SEAGOON
* see this (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=Acts%2017:16-33&version1=50) is if you don't get the analogy
-
(http://www.japanesestoneware.co.uk/photos/buddhas/014buddhafatmedium.jpg)
Budda's image doesn't seem to have effected that religion. I mean as Jack Nicholson said, "How does a man who weighs over 600 lbs have the balls to preach self discipline?"
-
Seagoon, or anyone else who can conduct themselves with a certain level of decency, there is no reason to apologize.
My post was/is rather pre-emptive. There are elements who simply cannot keep thier fingers off the keyboard nor do they know when they should keep them off the keyboard and would just as soon disrupt these discussions as breathe.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
One step away from shutting down all religious threads. They all seem to denegrate into something uglier than my mother-in-law.
heh... with a little investigative work this could become some SERIOUS blackmail materal :D
-
Nah, she already knows she is ugly.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
(http://www.japanesestoneware.co.uk/photos/buddhas/014buddhafatmedium.jpg)
Budda's image doesn't seem to have effected that religion. I mean as Jack Nicholson said, "How does a man who weighs over 600 lbs have the balls to preach self discipline?"
The irony there is that buddha was in fact supposedly an attractive slim guy (he spent some time fasting with those wierd hairy indian holymen), he was also prince from an indian royal family.
All the buddha statues we have at home (my wife and mother in law are buddhist) are of a slim almost efeminite buddha.
I like what seagoon says:
The sad thing about this whole argument over what Jesus looked like is that it is so needless. The Apostolic church turned the whole world upside-down via the preaching of the Gospel. Not once did they use pictures of Jesus. What would Peter or Paul say coming into one of our churches and seeing one of our many images of Jesus? Obviously they wouldn't recognize it as the image of the Savior they knew. Wouldn't they assume that this was yet another example of the kind of Hellenistic idolatry they were so familiar, "Men of America, I perceive that in all things you are very religious..."* Aren't we best served proclaiming the gospel of a Christ who is too glorious to be portrayed as a mere man from any one race?"
This represents to me, as a non-christian, the right attitude. But I also believe it represents a minority of christians, and that most christians would choke on the real images of their religious icons.
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Nah, she already knows she is ugly.
Theres a difference between knowing you're ugly, and discovering your son-in-law is broadcasting this message to the entire known universe.
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Theres a difference between knowing you're ugly, and discovering your son-in-law is broadcasting this message to the entire known universe.
ROFL!!! Good point! Skuzzy's gonna get the fryin-pan treatment!
-
In a galaxy far, far, away I would tell you the entire story.
I'll just say, my bases are covered. :D
-
Jesus was black and we ALL know it.
-
You sure that statue picture is not one of the seven lucky gods of japan Hotei, god of happiness?
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I did not say I do not get along with her. I do. But it does not make her look any better.
My mother in law is not only hideous, we also dont get along very well.
-
I'm not sure about Buddha, but the Dali Lama is in pretty good shape. I once caddied for the Dali Lama. The flowing robes, pretty amazing sight. Big Hitter... the Lama.
-
darn, i though this was going to turn into a "post a photo of your mother in law" thread
-
Originally posted by Seagoon
What would Peter or Paul say coming into one of our churches and seeing one of our many images of Jesus? Obviously they wouldn't recognize it as the image of the Savior they knew.
If they were walking into a Catholic church, prolly...those nails are a dead giveaway.
-
Dunno SOB, they could think it's Spartacus.
-
lol Holden
|
|
|
v
NwBie
-
Skuzzy,
Since the mother in law is ugly, are you saying the wife doesn't take after mom???? :D
-
Originally posted by SOB
If they were walking into a Catholic church, prolly...those nails are a dead giveaway.
Hmmm theres a good question, if jesus were a black guy imagine the field day various ethnic groups would have about a bunch of white guys (romans) nailing a black guy to a cross!
-
By the way..
that wooden sculpture in the pic,
that's not Buddha.
The features point him out to one of the deities in charge of alcoholic beverages, one of many deities which the far-eastern populaces believed in.
-
Originally posted by Maverick
Skuzzy,
Since the mother in law is ugly, are you saying the wife doesn't take after mom???? :D
Never seen my better half eh? Suffice it to say, there is no resemblance between the Wifey and the mother-in-law and I am so freaking grateful for that (so is the Wifey).
-
There has been a lot of migration in the last 2000 years. 2000 years ago the Bulgarians actually lived in Great Bulgar, the Irish lived in Austria, no honkeys lived in Australia, etc.
So how do we know Mary wasn't a totally hot blond with a big rack & a small nose?
Just because the people who live in Israel now are ugly is fairly meaningless.
Plus the lady in the 1st photo is probably about 50 (& yet i still wonder if she shaves 'down there')
-
thank you for bringing up "down there" and "shaving" in reference to that woman. I think I am going to wash my eyes out with bleach to rid myself of that mental image.
-
(http://www.worldpress.org/images/121103pal.jpg)
If that's what Mary looked like, no wonder she was a virgin:eek:
-
I am with Seagoon in this one. Why even worry about what Jesus looked like. To me it doesn't matter. If the men who were with them walked into a church these days they would find it to be appalling.
-
well, that was their bit
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
By the way..
that wooden sculpture in the pic,
that's not Buddha.
The sell it as one...
reminds me of a joke:
Mary Clancy goes up to Father O'Grady after his Sunday morning service, and she's in tears. "So what's bothering you, Mary my child?"
"Oh, Father, I've terrible news. My husband passed away last night."
The priest says, "Oh my, Mary, that is terrible news. Tell me, did he have any last requests?"
She says, "That he did, Father..."
"Pray tell, what did he ask, Mary?"
"He said, 'Please Mary, put down the gun!'
-
I regards to the picture of the lady on the first post all I can say is...That's a man Baby!
lol
-
Anyone know when the first (oldest) pictures/paintings/sculptings
of Jesus were? I don't know, just asking whats the oldest representation there is of him.
-
The Mandylion image of Christ on linen is referred to by many ancient writers, such as Eusebius of Caesarea (325 AD), and Evagrius (590 AD). It is considered the oldest image of Christ.
(http://www.printeryhouse.org/mall/Icons/Portraits/a12.jpg)
That's what my Google search turned up anyway.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Mandylion image of Christ on linen is referred to by many ancient writers, such as Eusebius of Caesarea (325 AD), and Evagrius (590 AD). It is considered the oldest image of Christ.
...
Some that I have dug up:
http://www.faithcentral.net.nz/inclass/art/goodshst.htm "Christ the Good Shepherd" - 200s
Dura Europos, Christian chapel, north wall:
http://www.kean.edu/~jtuerk/images/4_Byzantine/01_EChSalvationalImagery/41.jpg "Jesus Walks on Water" - 200s
http://www.kean.edu/~jtuerk/images/4_Byzantine/01_EChSalvationalImagery/40.jpg "Jesus Heals Paralytic" -200s
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/Collection/Death_Judas.html "The Death of Judas
and Crucifixion of Christ" - 400s
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/Collection/Condemnation_Christ.html "The Condemnation of Christ
and the Denial of Saint Peter" - 400s
http://www.faithcentral.net.nz/inclass/art/digest2b.htm "Raising Lazarus" - 400s
http://www.faithcentral.net.nz/inclass/art/digest2d.htm "Wedding at Cana" - 400s
http://www.faithcentral.net.nz/inclass/art/mosaic5.htm "Christ Triumphant" - 500s
http://www.diocesephoenix.org/priestpersonnel/stcatherine.htm "Jesus Pantocrator" - 500s
PAX!
-
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I did not say I do not get along with her. I do. But it does not make her look any better.
Then why did you marry your wife? You do know she is going to look like your mother in law in 20 years dont you? Hell she will even act like her. Sorry bud your screwed.