Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Xjazz on May 12, 2005, 01:53:10 PM
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(http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/galeria/videok/katonai/migvideo/baleset.jpg)
Yesterday the Hungarian Mig-29 pilot Zoltán"Topi" Szabó (lieutenent) was practising a aerobatics routine for international airshow(?) at Kecskemet airport.
Suddenly one engine explode at 300-400m altitude at ~750kmh speed. His collegues radio to him the situatiuon and request to put burning plane quickly down.
Topi had big problems to put throttle to the idle before ejecting. Plane crash as planed to the open fields next at airport.
Mig was ~12 year old and engines has changed year ago. This was a second Mig-29 crash.
Hungarian site
http://www.jetfly.hu/rovatok/repules/katonai/hirek/crash__050512/
Video 6.2M
http://www.jetfly.hu/videok/topi/topi.wmv
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Great that he got out.
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Looks like an uncontained turbine failure
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Russian ejection seats rock.
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A lot of negative-G flight in there... Not so good on the oil system and bearings in some designs.
One nice thing about the F-15... They just don't explode or go out of control when on fire. Lots of redundancy, and guys in both the F-15C and F-15E have flown back to base with an entire engine bay and aft portion of the plane engulfed in flames and landed safely. I know of at least 3 specific cases that looked an awful lot like this one, except the pilot flew back and landed. And then got out in a hurry and watched his plane melt to the ground :eek:
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Originally posted by eagl
A lot of negative-G flight in there... Not so good on the oil system and bearings in some designs.
One nice thing about the F-15... They just don't explode or go out of control when on fire. Lots of redundancy, and guys in both the F-15C and F-15E have flown back to base with an entire engine bay and aft portion of the plane engulfed in flames and landed safely. I know of at least 3 specific cases that looked an awful lot like this one, except the pilot flew back and landed. And then got out in a hurry and watched his plane melt to the ground :eek:
True, but with the amount of aluminum in that plane, I wouldn't want to ride it out. He made the right call with the martin baker club.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Looks like an uncontained turbine failure
I don't know what this mean. please, could you explain?
Thanks
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Yea, I'll never second-guess anyone's decision to jump out of a plane. In training, the last step of the inflight fire checklist states something to the effect of "if fire persists - eject".
The F-15 is just remarkably durable that's all, not trying to imply that the Mig-29 is unusually flammable or the pilot didn't do the right thing. It looked like he stuck with it trying to make something happen but the airframe itself was probably on fire by the time he got the fuel to the bad engine shut off, so he didn't have much choice.
FWIW, an uncontained engine failure is what you call it when the engine fails and parts go shooting out the sides of the engine casing. The external casing is reinforced to be able to hold or at least slow down turbine blades if they start coming apart, but at high engine rpm the casing and firewalls/bulkheads may not be strong enough to contain all the bits as they explode from the engine. Ideally, if an engine lets go like that the engine bay is strong enough to be a second line of defense and may contain the resulting explosion, fragmentation, and fire while the pilot shuts down the fuel flow to the engine bay. In practice, sometimes the fragments are moving fast enough to cut through the bulkheads and will damage either the other engine, or fuel lines upstream of the fuel cutoff valves. Or the fire is so hot that even though the fire is initially contained, the engine bay itself catches fire and can't be extinguished. 300 knots of wind fanning an aluminum-titanium alloy or composite flame will turn the whole engine bay into a big blowtorch. In most aircraft, it's only a short time until something critical fails in that situation. In the T-38, what usually goes next are the hydraulic lines to the horizontal stab because they run right along the engine bays on the way to the tail and even a fuel fire in the engines will melt them. A fighter ought to be more durable than that, but a metal fire will eventually burn through even the most hardened structures. The question is how long will it last. The F-15 has proven to last one hell of a long time in some cases.
Of course, it's all about luck too. One F-15E took 14+ ducks or geese down both engines, and flew home burning like a roman candle. Another hit a single bird but the impact and failures destroyed a critical flight control component downstream of the redundant systems, so it went down almost immediately.
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TY Eagl.
BTW is it just me or something really fly out from that Mig at 16:29:42-43?
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Originally posted by Xjazz
I don't know what this mean. please, could you explain?
Thanks
I believe it means that parts flew out through the engine casing, hence not "contained".
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When I was training about 10 years ago up in Danbury Connecticut, I saw a Kingair 200 take out 25 Geese while landing. Trashed both engines, wind screen, wings, horizontal stab - both engines flamed - was lucky he was landing and not taking off.
As always, its a run of the dice - 1 golden bb bird or 15 - #'s don't mean jack if it hits a critical component.
With the aluminum comment, I was eluding to the possibility of structural failure more then anything with a fire of that nature.
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He may have ejected since he thought it be safer to have the plane crash where he wants it too rather than have the plane disintergrate on circuit and the potential of it hitting a populated area.
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Originally posted by Xjazz
TY Eagl.
BTW is it just me or something really fly out from that Mig at 16:29:42-43?
It looks to me as if something flew out the right engine at that time, a rather large peice!
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A blowtorch is usually a lost plane did you land it or not, except after landing its harder to get out of the cockpit and the fire may rapidly 'eat' the whole plane after stopping.
I'd rather eject.
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Good to know the "Annual Russian Ejection Seat Roundup" is still going strong.
Karaya
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Too bad there's not as good footage as in the case where F-16 pilot ejected himself in airshow.
Anyways best crash was that B-52 in USA; it was even better than "Annual Russian Ejection Seat Roundup".
Thought nobody didn't jump then but maybe few folks in ground when the plane crashed to ground.
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Couple of ejection vids I had on my HD:
QF-4 (http://www.saunalahti.fi/anttruok/ptmagu_qf4crash.mpg)
F-14 (http://www.saunalahti.fi/anttruok/F14flyby.mpg)
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I've trouble determining wich of Masherbrum and Staga's post I find the more bad taste...
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Originally posted by straffo
I've trouble determining wich of Masherbrum and Staga's post I find the more bad taste...
Pick me! Ooh, Ohh, Pick me!
Karaya
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LOL :D
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héhé :lol
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Is it just me or there are both engines on fire lately ?
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After some of the weak airshows that the U.S. airforce has put on lately, I applaud any pilot who really takes his plane to the limit, whether they are Russian or American.
Planes are expendable, pilot experience isnt.
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Weak airshows...
I've been watching F-15E strafe and PGM drop videos over Iraq and Afghanistan, and not one of them involved pushing the airframe to the limit. They ALL involved the precise application of lethal airpower in specifically measured and effective amounts. Airshows are publicity events, nothing more. If he isn't on a demo team, a military pilot has absolutely no business "pushing the limit" at an airshow. Even a demo team has to prioritize safety vs. how deep into that gray area near the edge of the envelope they go, and right now there's no reason to push things.
There is zero practical experience that can be gained on the airshow circuit, unless your job is putting on airshows. For a combat pilot, every minute spent flying an airshow demo is one minute of training lost forever. I'm not bagging on airshow pilots because the public should get the chance to see what they're paying for and a professional airshow demo is the best way we can do that without actually shooting someone, but it has nothing at all to do with combat capability.
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Originally posted by eagl
Yea, I'll never second-guess anyone's decision to jump out of a plane.
My flight instructor told me that the last thing you do before jumping out was to pull the mixture. I asked him why and he relayed the following:
He told me that while in the military in Louisiana a student and instructor both bailed out of a T-38 due to engine failure. They tried an airstart, but couldn't get it to light.
Once they ejected, the Talon dove steeper than they had tried during the airstart attempts and the unguided plane got enough airspeed to start on its own. The plane came around a few times while they hung under their canopies and then it augered into the bayou.
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Military branches still need public support. This was the original reason for military airshows.
But the general consenus is that the Airforce puts on a weak airshow. And I agree. Sure, every once in a while a Navy jet crashes, but everyone has heard of the Blue Angels and knows they are in for a good show.
I've seen the F-16 and F-15 demo teams. I've also seen the Navy F-14 and F-18 Superhornet demo teams. The Navy teams really impressed me. The airforce...well not so much.
The Russians and the Navy can put on a good show though.
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SunTracker our guys in Airshows don't push it. They could but they don't. I'll also be damned if they push it to the extreme and over g one of our airframes. I'm sorry but no matter how excited it'd make the crowd it's not worth the time nor the money to push it that far.
What looks so cool to the crowd ends up costing the squadron, the Air Force and the maintainers alot of time and money to fix. It's extremely easy to put up a Level 3 Mass items over g. That means a ton of work. Most aircrews don't have a clue because they do it and get to walk away afterwards. Meanwhile the maintainers are spending the next 12 hours or more depending on the severity of the over g pulling panels, pods, ect...
Ask any aircrew who's been ordered to help with the over g inspections just how fun it is. Every aircrew that I've known who's been told they have to help us has said they didn't realise just how much work was involved when a high level over g happens. They get a different outlook on it when they have to help fix what they broke.
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After my one and only level-3 over-g, I spent 4 hours pulling panels. It wasn't much fun doing that after an already full day at work and I wasn't any good at it, but the MX guys appreciated it.
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Originally posted by eagl
Weak airshows...
I've been watching F-15E strafe and PGM drop videos over Iraq and Afghanistan, and not one of them involved pushing the airframe to the limit. They ALL involved the precise application of lethal airpower in specifically measured and effective amounts. Airshows are publicity events, nothing more. If he isn't on a demo team, a military pilot has absolutely no business "pushing the limit" at an airshow. Even a demo team has to prioritize safety vs. how deep into that gray area near the edge of the envelope they go, and right now there's no reason to push things.
There is zero practical experience that can be gained on the airshow circuit, unless your job is putting on airshows. For a combat pilot, every minute spent flying an airshow demo is one minute of training lost forever. I'm not bagging on airshow pilots because the public should get the chance to see what they're paying for and a professional airshow demo is the best way we can do that without actually shooting someone, but it has nothing at all to do with combat capability.
I knew a fighter pilot who was in a bar with his combat experienced fighter pilot buddies. In walks the Thunderbirds in their spiffy uniforms; they threw them out!
As far as aircraft limits go,
Spectators at air shows are just as thrilled without the pilot pushing it to the limit. I mean, if a pilot flies by at the stall speed, or at a much safer 110% of the stall speed, its going to look pretty much the same. Perhaps other fighter pilots can tell the difference, but hardly anyone else.
eskimo