Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Howitzer on May 13, 2005, 09:22:15 AM
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I have a question to ask because I guess I'm just not understanding this completely.
The last few nights I've gone into the DA to do a little fighting, and it seems that everyone is always in spitVs, and the fights always play out about the same. There is SOOO much emphasis put on the merge that I would venture to say that 90% of the fights are won or lost on the merge. Had some pretty good fights though.
I guess my question is: How exactly does learning this way translate into MA fighting? The vast number of BnZ guys in the MA make this fighting almost impossible. Seems like if I win a merge in the MA the other guy sees he's beat and goes nose down to run away. So I've started not making such tight turns to keep my E up, but in the DA if I fly this way I'm toast. Half the time in the MA I have to fly lower and actually give up my six in order just to be engaged. Normally I try for an overshoot just to get a shot off before they run away.
Just seems like the two places are greatly different and since I only have about an hour of flying time a night, I don't have time to learn both. Anyone else feel this way?
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Bingo Howitzer.
I feel the same way, if you fight like the DA in the MA, you get whacked by some cherry picker. I often give up my tail in the MA just to get somebody to engage, and then pray they dont extend when I make them miss. I think it just goes to show the fighting online is NOTHING like it is/was in RL.
I mean, who the heck in RL would try a rope maneuver...? I do it all the time in the MA/DA.
In the DA its Merge, than low and slow fights to the deck. I really enjoy this type of fighting, but is a rare commodity now in the MA.
Hopefully TOD is the answer, where living = rank etc... and it makes the fights more realistic.
Balsy
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OR, you could fly in the Special Events Arena.. If anything in this game gets anywhere close to how it actually was, thats the place to be.
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Hey Nuke! I was just thinking about that...
(http://www.warszawa.hailcesarz.com/torps/images/vt5plaque.jpg)
-Sik
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Right on Sik.. Hey I should send you a few screenies of the coral sea event.. I got a couple of really good ones.. Let me know your e-mail if you'd care to check them out..
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What i understand in real live most encounters were won where the other guy didnt eaven see you coming, which for me more or less translates to alt monkeying and bnz one slash attacks.
Whoever manages to engage the other guys from above attacks. If your lower you try to draw the enemy away from their planned mission and down and radio for help.
At least thats how i understand it. The stall fights rarely happend, as well as few people would fight at treetop hight. The real situation would just be to boring as a simulation. So neither DA nor MA are in any way like reality. Probably most real you can get is flying fighters in MA, take off from a save base, climb to 25k, bounce some bombers or unsuspecting fighters and RTB. That would mean no dogfights, no co-e engagement and one attack every hour.
I have no idea if the 2 fold fuel burn in the MA is really necessary, but i find it verry desturbing if you want to fly real like, once climbed to 25k the remaining fuel is pretty limiting.
Balsy, if you want merges with the enemy not running ask me where i am and kill me... i might be dragging out the fight a bit to disengage and reengage, but i wont run from one con. But then im probably shot down so fast that its not worth the trouble for you.
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I agree Howi, and i get very frustrated when spit5 fights end 3 seconds after they start.........with a 'second-nose-to-nose-HO shot'.
most spit 5 fights in DA: merge-HO-rinse-repeat.
boring.
when you fight a really good stick you know you got beat fair because they will avoid that HO shot and work the angles to humble you from above, behind or the sides.
just try fighting Sniper....there are many good sticks but Sniper is one of the frequant DA users and he flies the spit5 like a dream.
I find the best thing to do in the DA is take just one friend and go find an empty field. pick random plane match-ups (typing '.plane #' works well :D) and see how the fight goes.
I have spent many an hour fighting friends in the DA and it only improves my limited box of tricks each time i go.
some of the guys who will school you, but also give you a very good fight in the DA if you ask them to go...and they dont care about beating you, they just want fun fights...
redd
sniper
phish/bovidea
any of the BKs
XtremeJ
Despair
any of 71sqn
shane
wildthng
balsy (although he too damn good in hogs/f6f to bother fighting :D)
there are many many more, and i'm sorry if i forgot to put ya down and you fight DA often.
but then again, theres an exlusive list i find that fight MA only but still i enjoy coming acrros them very much.
like..
Sekiji
Yonoi
jozepi
the Braunco Mustangs (i know some will disagree)
Kiss My havoc
SEs
devious
thrila..
....
....
the list could go on and on...
then there is the good fights to be found in the CT....
I geuss that you just have to search a little in each arena to find where the true players are fighting, but when you find a good fight, dont waste it :D
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I find that I use the skills obtained in the DA all the time in the MA. The difference is that the MA is a more robust environment than the DA. You can succeed very well in the MA without doing well in the DA. However, I find that those who do very well in the DA almost always do well in the MA also.
Seriously, I don't get it when people say that the DA does not translate into the MA. It does, or at least it can. Even when flying a Tempest, I find I'm constantly using principles learned from countless duels over the years.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Howitzer
I guess my question is: How exactly does learning this way translate into MA fighting?
Go into the DA and duel over and over and over again for a few days and when you go back to the MA you'll feel like a samurai.
It does translate in the fact that your gunnery will improve, you'll be better able to ride planes on the edge, and you'll gain a healthy respect for why exactly "furballers" do what they do - a close tight fight is perhaps the most exhilirating thing you can get out of this game.
And yes, many times you'll only find SpitV fights, but you can translate any manuever or idea you learn to do in a Spit to pretty much any other plane.
It's really a blast.
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My DA Strategy... take off heading the wrong way and run like hell.
They can't kill you if they can't catch you!
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I find that I use the skills obtained in the DA all the time in the MA. The difference is that the MA is a more robust environment than the DA. You can succeed very well in the MA without doing well in the DA. However, I find that those who do very well in the DA almost always do well in the MA also.
Seriously, I don't get it when people say that the DA does not translate into the MA. It does, or at least it can. Even when flying a Tempest, I find I'm constantly using principles learned from countless duels over the years.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Maybe to clarify... I'm not looking for realism, I can't fly a real plane nor do I have the desire to do so. I just want to kill stuff.
Levi- I guess I'm not saying it DOESN'T translate, what I'm saying it that I don't understand how it translates. Seems that I fly the best when I watch a film of one of you guys taking on the world. Situations that don't start with a full throttle merge in equal planes, and normally consist of a lot of kung fu and crazy antics. I know you learned that stuff in the DA, but I am just not seeing how.
I went to the DA with sniper, and I learned quite a bit, but so far I can just see it applying to the DA. If I was to pull a double immelman in my SpitV off the merge in the MA, I would drop the nose in time to see the con disapear from icon range :D
This isn't a hit on the DA or anything else, I guess I'm just trying to grasp how I can learn to be effective in both arenas and not squander the little playing time I have available.
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Originally posted by HavocTM
My DA Strategy... take off heading the wrong way and run like hell.
They can't kill you if they can't catch you!
You still play this game? ;)
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Originally posted by Howitzer
If I was to pull a double immelman in my SpitV off the merge in the MA, I would drop the nose in time to see the con disapear from icon range :D
This isn't a hit on the DA or anything else, I guess I'm just trying to grasp how I can learn to be effective in both arenas and not squander the little playing time I have available.
Nothing you can do if the other guy does not want to fight. DA style or not. However, you can use the stuff you learn when they do decide to fight.
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I have it on good authority that Howitzer wears a skirt when dueling.
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Once you get really comfortable with DA tactics you can time them to avoid those pickers in the MA, and be successful more often then not. I usually try to control the fight so that I'm always on the bottom half of a rolling scissors when the picker comes, so that my slightly higher speed and turn rate make for a hard shot. If you're really good at fighting you can usually manage to make adjustments for this without costing yourself the turnfight, although it will be hard to gain a solid advantage until you can devote your concentration to the turner. After the dweebs miss 3 passes or so they usually come to join in the turnfight, at which point you can just loop around em both and pretend they are just one big target.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I find I'm constantly using principles learned from countless duels over the years.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Incase anyone missed it. ^there it is.
For example howitzer.
No one forces you to merge and do a 8-9 G reversal. Balls to the wall.
When I fight Levi or nomak for example they are never consistant in how they merges. Always changing things, speed, angle whatever...Alot of it comes from what he see's me doing. Almost all of it. Which makes them as good as theyis... They can read read a fight and predict things very well
The DA forces you to adapt and watch for certain things alot more than you would if you were JUST in the MA...Because if you dont you will just keep dying. It sharpens the reactions you have in the MA and adds a "second nature" mind set to almost all fights.
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It is odd though, that you'll find fights in the DA but most treat the MA as "more real". The times I've been in there it has been a blessed relief to have a con stay engaged. Whilst no where near the ability of some of these illustrious posters I have found the DA a great place to learn about your ride.
SA for me now in the MA is determining how long I've got left to fight this guy before his 3 countrymen jump in. It used to be about who was fighting who.
On a side note, the number of times I've seen 5 guys on 1 con whilst 4 others are coming in at alt beggars belief - I mean, I let 'em know but they're like a bunch of kids with their hands stuck in the sweetie jar ... and you better believe it, the "thanks a bunch for no check 6" whines follow about 1 minute later.
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How does endless turnin-and-burnin in a plane I NEVER fly in MA help? Alas, the few planes I DO fly cant do squat against a co-alt spitV, which seems to be the official ride in DA...Either CT or H2H is more helpful
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Originally posted by bj229r
How does endless turnin-and-burnin in a plane I NEVER fly in MA help? Alas, the few planes I DO fly cant do squat against a co-alt spitV, which seems to be the official ride in DA...Either CT or H2H is more helpful
It helps for those times when you engage another non turning-and-burning plane in the MA , and rather than run away , he want's to fight.
The ACM for flying a SpitV is no different to the ACM when flying any other plane. It can be applied to whatever plane you are flying .
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Originally posted by Nuke33
Right on Sik.. Hey I should send you a few screenies of the coral sea event.. I got a couple of really good ones.. Let me know your e-mail if you'd care to check them out..
Sik,
I have 3 bitmaps of us all in formation during Coral Sea, too. Lemme know if you want 'em. :)
tbolt@onpoi.net
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Howitzer - good post. I don't think some planes were natural angles fighters, which is what it seems to come down to in the DA. But what's this - you're saying the DA is full of SpitVs? Get away. I don't believe you! Don't they fly anything else in there?
I guess my question is: How exactly does learning this way translate into MA fighting?
It doesn't. It translates into gameplay whine threads like this one: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149730 Or this one, from two years ago, which shows how little things have changed: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95545 Notice anything about these threads, apart from complaints about folks not flying *their* way? psst - check the avatar of the thread starter
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
I find that I use the skills obtained in the DA all the time in the MA.
Yeah? Does that include the time you flew in a lone Spit under a bunch of four cons? Teach you that in the DA, did they? Oh, well it was a SpitV I guess, so at least there was some common ground with the DA :lol
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For starters, I'm P38 flyer...
I'm done trying to manuver with any SpitVs; sadly, I'll rope em, make the real foolish ones over shoot, but I refuse to turn with them and play their game unless its at a very high AoA or a very high speed. Many of you are saying "thats what you should do!" but I hate to minimize my exposure to them, it makes me feel like a cowardly Fw190 pilot.
I'll probably get flamed for this, but I think the SpitV is a little overmodeled, either its weight or its boost is too low/high respectively. Looking at Innom's stat page, the SpitV actually has a better k/d ratio than the Spit9, and the Seafire and the Spit9 have exactly the same. Something just doesn't seem right to me...
Originally posted by bj229r
Alas, the few planes I DO fly cant do squat against a co-alt spitV
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Just to add on, I still want to learn and I'm willing to accept any smack down in the DA provided you explain what I'm doing wrong.
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no one says you have to fly or face a spitV in the DA.
The DA is a multi-purpose place where you usually go in with 1 (or more) other people to do... whatever.
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Originally posted by Redd
[B
The ACM for flying a SpitV is no different to the ACM when flying any other plane. It can be applied to whatever plane you are flying . [/B]
It can be but usually not nearly as well. Moreso the ACMs you use in any other plane can usually be applied to the dwee.. errr I mean spitfire only better.
Fly a different and more difficult plane long enough to get to be pretty good at it then switch to a dwee.. I mean Spitfire and it becomes so easy you almost feel like your cheating.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
It can be but usually not nearly as well. Moreso the ACMs you use in any other plane can usually be applied to the dwee.. errr I mean spitfire only better.
Fly a different and more difficult plane long enough to get to be pretty good at it then switch to a dwee.. I mean Spitfire and it becomes so easy you almost feel like your cheating.
think you missed the point, but anyway.
Flying a 109F I understand your bitterness about the Spitfire as It clearly runs rings around your chosen plane.
When I'm in the Hellcat , I often feel the same way about the niki, and to some extent the Ki-84. I try not to whine about it in to every post I make on the BBS though, because I figure , well it's my choice to fly the Hellcat , even though I know there's better planes around.
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Originally posted by Redd
think you missed the point, but anyway.
Flying a 109F I understand your bitterness about the Spitfire as It clearly runs rings around your chosen plane.
When I'm in the Hellcat , I often feel the same way about the niki, and to some extent the Ki-84. I try not to whine about it in to every post I make on the BBS though, because I figure , well it's my choice to fly the Hellcat , even though I know there's better planes around.
LMAO. not quite.
The only times I have problems against the almighty dweeb machine is when already good pilots are in them. Or when I get nailed with the HO shot which is something happening with more, and more frequency.
But those same already good pilots would give me a run for my money in pretty much any plane they fly.
In this tour to date I''ve killed
Seafire 4 times
Spit IX 13 times
Spit V 15 times
Total 32 kills of spits
While I've been killed by
Seafire 0 times
Spit IX 6 times
Spit V 12 times
Total 18 times killed by spits
Of those times killed by spits HOs make up..ohhh lets be conservative and say 5%
Hardly equates to Spits running rings around my 109 F
And certainly not "clearly" by any stretch of the imagination
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In the WB RPS (week 1) the SpitV was matched against the 109F. The 109F ran rings - or more usually just ran. It outclassed the SpitV, that's for sure. I found the only way to get the 109s with the SpitV (given that no 109F would engage SpitV in a turnfight) was to climb high enough to be able to dive and match the 109F's speed. But in AH I always thought the Spits outclassed the 109 - especially with those 800yd shots we used to see in AH1.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
LMAO. not quite.
The only times I have problems against the almighty dweeb machine is when already good pilots are in them. Or when I get nailed with the HO shot which is something happening with more, and more frequency.
But those same already good pilots would give me a run for my money in pretty much any plane they fly.
In this tour to date I''ve killed
Seafire 4 times
Spit IX 13 times
Spit V 15 times
Total 32 kills of spits
While I've been killed by
Seafire 0 times
Spit IX 6 times
Spit V 12 times
Total 18 times killed by spits
Of those times killed by spits HOs make up..ohhh lets be conservative and say 5%
Hardly equates to Spits running rings around my 109 F
And certainly not "clearly" by any stretch of the imagination
Well I'll be buggered !, what do you know , it's the pilot sometimes isn't it , not always the plane ;)
Now to get back on topic , my point was - working on your ACM in the DA in ANY plane brings benefits to ANY other plane you might happen to fly in the MA. And I've always believed that ppl are better off learning TnB first , then E-fighting second.
And no I don't don't necessrily subscribe to the theory that flying a difficult macho plane gives you some enormous benefit moving to other planes . Most people fly the dfficult macho planes like total dweebs , so they don't actually even need or bother to learn any real ACM, but that's whole nother argument.
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No matter which arena u chose to fly in,learning acm can translate to any of the a/c, with enough stick time.I find that my S.A. is improving from endless duels with numerous a/c and pilots.If you have good sa you'll stand a better chance of surviving any encounter against any pilot.
JB12