Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Raptor on May 13, 2005, 05:09:10 PM
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Because of the amount of help that they are providing us, we’re going to try to take some of that time savings and spin off some new variants. They’re really doing an amazing job.
What P47 and/or P51 Variants would you like to see?
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M/N and H obviously ;) Need for Speed and all that.
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NONE!
all of them are filled c'mon!
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i take that back, we need a perked and clipped P-47 M and N.
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When I read that I wasn't sure that the "new variants" comment was limited only to the '47 and '51. I was hoping for an earlier 190 myself.
-Sik
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A Spit XVI with bubble canopy.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
When I read that I wasn't sure that the "new variants" comment was limited only to the '47 and '51. I was hoping for an earlier 190 myself.
-Sik
Yeah, we have way too many Mustangs and only 4 members
of the FW family ;). It's not like they're mutually exclusive, ie
if we get a new pony you wouldn't get your FW-190-D-12-a-3547-
cz-0a.5
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Originally posted by Rino
Yeah, we have way too many Mustangs and only 4 members
of the FW family ;). It's not like they're mutually exclusive, ie
if we get a new pony you wouldn't get your FW-190-D-12-a-3547-
cz-0a.5
I certainly didn't mean to imply that they were mutually exclusive. Only that I was hoping for an earlier 190. But hey, everyone knows that I'm a total luftwhiner who's axis obsessed, so really I can see how you were confused.
-Sik
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I request the crappy Brewster Built Corsair & the Avia S-199 (with the Avia an Israeli independence war scenario could be done...might not be too bad a plane really, good firepower)
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I suppose if it's to help ToD, then you'd need an early Jug that only could carry the centerline drop tank and had no wing hard points. Not the longer range razorback.
I'd also think you'd want an early OD/Gray B model Mustang for the December 43-summer of 44 time frame. Then you'd want a NMF B/C for May 44-until the end. This would be the bird with the malcom hood. (Not that the early OD/Gray birds didn't have them too but they were a bit more rare) And finally a D/K model for June 44 until the end.
I don't know where an Allison P51 would play into the ToD environment if it's the 8th vs the Luftwaffe. Not much use for it there.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Pongo
A Spit XVI with bubble canopy.
Just not that common before the war ended. High back LFIXe/XVIe would make much more sense.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Yeah, we have way too many Mustangs and only 4 members
of the FW family
What'd you expect? The 190 entered service 2 years before the Mustangs and stayed until the war's end.
The Mustang came very late in '43, and still contended with the P-38 or the P-47 until the USAAF finally switched most of its assets to the P-51s in '44.
The only 'pony' that served in the war, in overall generalization, is essentially the B and the D, which we have both.
If any USAAF fighters need a new variant, it would be the P-47C.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
What'd you expect? The 190 entered service 2 years before the Mustangs and stayed until the war's end.
The Mustang came very late in '43, and still contended with the P-38 or the P-47 until the USAAF finally switched most of its assets to the P-51s in '44.
The only 'pony' that served in the war, in overall generalization, is essentially the B and the D, which we have both.
If any USAAF fighters need a new variant, it would be the P-47C.
Now now :) Spit entered service 5 years before the 190 and we only have 4 versions with one perked. The latest unperked Spit we have is a bastardized version resembling the 1942 model.. Seems to me before we'd see more 190s you'd see an accurate LFIX, a VIII and potentially an XII or LFXVI.
Seems to me the 109 fanatics have a better case then the 190 guys too.
Just sayin :)
Oh and of course the Mustang was in operation in 42 with the Allison versions operated by the RAF and the USAAF
Dan/CorkyJr
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Much lower fraction of Curtis built P-47s were in combat than the Republic built Thunderbolts, so P-47g. (I request worse planes for the increased challenge)....Early Ford built B-24 also
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I thought the P-47G was only used for training in the US?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Now now :) Spit entered service 5 years before the 190 and we only have 4 versions with one perked. The latest unperked Spit we have is a bastardized version resembling the 1942 model.. Seems to me before we'd see more 190s you'd see an accurate LFIX, a VIII and potentially an XII or LFXVI.
Seems to me the 109 fanatics have a better case then the 190 guys too.
Just sayin :)
Oh and of course the Mustang was in operation in 42 with the Allison versions operated by the RAF and the USAAF
Dan/CorkyJr
So when the spit and 109 models are redone, I hope we'll see more variants. Until then...
-Sik
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Originally posted by Kweassa
What'd you expect? The 190 entered service 2 years before the Mustangs and stayed until the war's end.
The Mustang came very late in '43, and still contended with the P-38 or the P-47 until the USAAF finally switched most of its assets to the P-51s in '44.
The only 'pony' that served in the war, in overall generalization, is essentially the B and the D, which we have both.
If any USAAF fighters need a new variant, it would be the P-47C.
Bout what I expected from the LW fans, cause god forbid you
might have a USAAC plane that can catch a Dora ;)
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The Mustang wasn't as widely utilized as long as the FW so it stands to reason that there would be more FWs. There has to be to make ToD viable.
What other P-51 could you want?
The two main variants are there (D and B; even if they add a C its still just a B).
A P-36 or P-51A maybe but there should not (and I suspect wont be) an 'H'.
Where in a '43 ToD theater will you have to 'out run a Dora'?
As for the P-47s what's the point of an M (especially the M) or N? What P-47 can't out perform the best Japanese plane now?
If HT wants ToD to be a success and draw new players then he can't afford to play 'substitution roulette' or play withe made up aircraft match ups like you see in the other events or in the CT.
He will need an earlier (A3 or A4) FW, and an A6 (4 X MG151/2cm). He will need an earlier P-47 etc...
He will need a Spit LF.MK IX. He will need a whole host of Russian and Japanese planes. Like early yaks, laggs, A6m3 and any number of planes you wont ever see in the main.
The type of folks who will have an interest in ToD aren't necessarily the players HT has now. These folks will be coming from the box games. Where the planes are o'plenty. Where they can set up a 'believable' on line war with out all the hocus pocus need to pull an event off in AH.
I am not sure what HT has planned or is thinking but as some one who knows and games with a lot of these types of players I know they won't be convinced to give it a try unless it is decently put together.
Some of you may only think about what you can fly around in the main (and there's nothing wrong with that) but the average main player won't be too excited over ToD just like he/she isn't interested in the CT or other events.
Just putting together a 'code' (scoring, tracking, missions etc) to make ToD work won't be enough. Any number of box games offer this type of 'code' already.
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with the planes hiteck has now making new versions of them will be easier and speeded up but we do need new aircraft altogeather,new bombers new fighters russian german bombers italian japanese and some new tanks,not just german tanks
personaly id like to see for RAF a wellington bomber or stirling or halifax,for germany do217 or he111 ,pe2 for russia some migs a lagg3 and some italian stuff
rogerdee
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NB pulls out his crystal ball....
Hmm, I see a 51B with a Malcolm Hood and an A36.
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Überstudmuffins
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Our stop-gap spitfire Mk. IX (1942) is no match in 1944 era.
Yes we need spitfire LF Mk. IX and VII or VIII
btw what's the difference between spit marks VII and VIII?
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Originally posted by IK3
Our stop-gap spitfire Mk. IX (1942) is no match in 1944 era.
Yes we need spitfire LF Mk. IX and VII or VIII
btw what's the difference between spit marks VII and VIII?
Spitfire VII was a specialty high alt version. Pressurized cockpit, extended wings etc. 104 built if memory serves. Not something I'd put high on the list for AH. The LFVIII with normal wings and the LFIX/XVI with clipped wingswould be head of my Spit list both for the skinning possibilities and their viability in the MA as well as scenario use.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Kweassa
What'd you expect? The 190 entered service 2 years before the Mustangs and stayed until the war's end.
The Mustang came very late in '43, and still contended with the P-38 or the P-47 until the USAAF finally switched most of its assets to the P-51s in '44.
The only 'pony' that served in the war, in overall generalization, is essentially the B and the D, which we have both.
If any USAAF fighters need a new variant, it would be the P-47C.
I would argue that the P-51 was in combat service well before late 1943. They were used (P-51A and A-36) in the MTO more than a year before. There's no doubt that Mustang Mk.I fighters could easily fit into TOD if the scenario was 1941-42.
Personally, I would very much enjoy an Allison Mustang, both in the MA and TOD.
In addition, we are limited to the standard P-51B, when more than 50% of them were converted to the Malcolm hood. That would be a legitimate varient.
My regards,
Widewing
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I made this post in the Gen Discussion forum thread abou this same topic:
The A-36 didn't fly its first combat sorties until the attacks on Pantelleria in the Med on June, '43.
The first A-36A flew on Sept '42 but deliveries of the A-36A weren't completed until March '42.
The 27th and 86th Bombardment Groups (Dive) were equipped with the A-36A.
The 27th and the 86th arrived North Africa in April '43 They didn't see combat until the attacks on Pantelleria in June.
In late '41 the RAF ordered 150 Mustangs.
RAF designated them as Mustang IA's (4 x hispanos) but only received 93. The other 57 were kept by the USAAF and had 4 50s.
I think all the RAF IA's were assigned to recce groups.
The first Mustang (Mk1, no hispanos) aerial victory didn't occur until Aug '42 over or near Dieppe. IIRC it was a Recce group that claimed the kill.
The XP-51B didn't fly until Nov '42 and it wasn't until mid '43 that P-51Bs and Cs arrived in service.
So I would think that for ToD we would see something like:
P-36A - June '43 (Med / North Africa)
P-51 Mk1 - late '42
P-51 B / C - mid '43
There's no reason to perk a malcolm hooded P-51 that I see. However I can envision the perking of the D if they add more variants of P-51.
For the record I think the D-9 and G-10 (if we get a G-14 at some point) ought to be perked as well.
I had always thought that as the number of planes increased the perk plane list would expand to cover the late and / or rare aircraft.
I don't see how you squeeze a P-51 MK 1 until late '42, let alone '41.
What have basically is RAF Recce variants that saw no combat and claimed no kills until Aug '42.
So I would think that no P-51s woul dbe necessary in an theater or scenario prior to Aug '42.
The P-36A not until they first saw combat in June '43.
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Originally posted by Wotan
I made this post in the Gen Discussion forum thread abou this same topic:
I don't see how you squeeze a P-51 MK 1 until late '42, let alone '41.
What have basically is RAF Recce variants that saw no combat and claimed no kills until Aug '42.
So I would think that no P-51s woul dbe necessary in an theater or scenario prior to Aug '42.
The P-36A not until they first saw combat in June '43.
As far as I can determine, the first operational mission flown by Mustang Is was on May 16, 1942, when #2 squadron raided a Luftwaffe airfield in France.
A-36 units (two squadrons) went operational in April of 1943. First combat was on June 6th, 1943.
So, TOD missions for any time after April of '42 could use the Mustang Mk.I.
MTO missions would have to be after May of 1943 to include the A-36.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
As far as I can determine, the first operational mission flown by Mustang Is was on May 16, 1942, when #2 squadron raided a Luftwaffe airfield in France.
A-36 units (two squadrons) went operational in April of 1943. First combat was on June 6th, 1943.
So, TOD missions for any time after April of '42 could use the Mustang Mk.I.
MTO missions would have to be after May of 1943 to include the A-36.
My regards,
Widewing
Found mention of the first RAF Mustang operational flight on May 10, 1942 as a solo offensive recce flight to the airfield at Berck-sur-Mer on the French coast by F/O G.N.Dawson of 26 Squadron taking off from Gatwick.
First Mustang loss was July 14, 1942 when one from 26 squadron collided with a ground target it was strafing.
Four Squadrons operational during Dieppe on August 19th. 26, 239, 400 and 414. Flying Officer Hollis Hill, an American flying with the RCAF scored the Mustang I's first kill that day when he downed a 190.
June 43 saw the 27th FG USAAF take the A36 into combat followed by the 86th FG in July 43.
Dan/CorkyJr
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I have the exact same info Guppy has.
I think these dates are more accurate, certainly nothing in '41.
There's no need to push up their dates. I would lean toward first kill claim but if some one else wants to lean toward first loss (or which ever comes first) it seems much more in line with history rather they deciding a single Recce flight constitutes 'in combat'. I could make that justification for many aircraft.
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It seems to me that you guys are being silly about this, arguing over which variants were common, which plane served longer, etc. The answer is quite simple. Give us all of them. Surely it wouldn't take more than a few years... :D
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If it's to be a simple process of adding a few variants (because that's easy to do, unlike adding new models), then the A-36 might not make it. It had dive brakes that need to be modelled, both graphically and functionally. Also the Allison sound will be different(may not be a big deal, don't know) along with drastically different performance characteristics.
I'm not a software guy so you tell me...is this a big deal?
Magoo
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I'd like an RC variant so that when I get shot down it doesn't count as a death.
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Originally posted by Magoo
If it's to be a simple process of adding a few variants (because that's easy to do, unlike adding new models), then the A-36 might not make it. It had dive brakes that need to be modelled, both graphically and functionally. Also the Allison sound will be different(may not be a big deal, don't know) along with drastically different performance characteristics.
I'm not a software guy so you tell me...is this a big deal?
Magoo
Dive brakes are already modeled on other planes. I'm sure it would need to be tweaked for the A36. The 38G uses Allisons....doesn't it?
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Actually NoBaddy, now that you mention it, I think all the 38s use allisons.
Wonder if we can coerce someone from HTC to drop us a hint here?;)
Magoo
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Dive brakes are already modeled on other planes. I'm sure it would need to be tweaked for the A36. The 38G uses Allisons....doesn't it?
P40B and E have Allisons, all the 38s have Allisons. P39 would have an Allison if we ever get one :)
Dan/CorkyJR
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Originally posted by 1K3
NONE!
Agreed, no more 51s or 47s are needed. Especially the 51H had was insanely fast and had the 4x20s and the 47N was also insanely fast and had the 4x37s. If we had those varients, thats all we would see people flying because they might have a perk cost similar to the 152. I dont think we need any more late more aircraft as thats what we mostly see now.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
Agreed, no more 51s or 47s are needed. Especially the 51H had was insanely fast and had the 4x20s and the 47N was also insanely fast and had the 4x37s. If we had those varients, thats all we would see people flying because they might have a perk cost similar to the 152. I dont think we need any more late more aircraft as thats what we mostly see now.
The P-51H was armed the same as the P-51D. Likewise, the P-47N was armed the same as the P-47D.
Both the P-51H and P-47N were strictly Pacific fighters.
Now, there's plenty of good arguments to introduce the P-47M, which by the way was more than 10 mph faster than the P-47N and climbed like a P-38L. I'm sure there would be a small perk price for the M model.
As to Allison Mustangs, there are several options open with regard to TOD.
My regards,
Widewing
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The Spits...ahhh.
"Spitfire VII was a specialty high alt version. Pressurized cockpit, extended wings etc. 104 built if memory serves. Not something I'd put high on the list for AH. The LFVIII with normal wings and the LFIX/XVI with clipped wingswould be head of my Spit list both for the skinning possibilities and their viability in the MA as well as scenario use."
The Spit VII was indeed a high alt version. Some had extended wings I belive.
They were a bit more "stiff" to fly, because of the tightening of the control cords, but apart from that, very good high alt aircraft.
Anyway, a mk VIII and a IX LF +25would fill the gap rather nicely, - but alas, the performance is good enough to make them perkable.
Both the VIII and IX on 25 boost are 400mph+ fighters that climb to 20K in some 5 minutes. The VIII has twice the range of our Spit IX, the IX on +25 is also a very quick one. Now, were they also clipped, or would that be a mk V option, for a clipped IX on +25 steroids would be a perfect killer. Goodbye lalala :D
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I believe the only planes up for getting new variants are the models that have been upgraded to AH2 standards. If you read the post by Skuzzy it sounds like it will be variants of the newly renovated Jug and Pony due to the context of the post.
I'll bet dollars to donuts there's gonna be a P47N. Here's some info from Joe Baugher's site:
The P-47N version of the Thunderbolt was the last version to be manufactured in quantity. It was a specialized long-range version built specifically for service in the Pacific theatre.
Four P-47D-27-RE airframes (serials 42-27385/27388) had been taken off the production line at Farmingdale and fitted with the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-57(C) engine driving a larger CH-5 turbosupercharger. This engine could produce a war emergency power of 2800 hp at 32,500 feet with water injection. These aircraft had been redesignated YP-47M and served as the prototypes for the P-47M series.
However, the war in the Pacific required fighter ranges even greater than did operations over Germany. In pursuit of better long-range performance, in mid-1944 the third YP-47M prototype (42-27387) was fitted with a new "wet" wing of slightly larger span and area. The aircraft was redesignated XP-47N. For the first time in the Thunderbolt series fuel was carried in the wings, a 93 US gallon tank being fitted in each wing. When maximum external tankage was carried, this brought the total fuel load of the XP-47N up to an impressive 1266 US gallons. This fuel load make it possible for a range of 2350 miles to be achieved.
The new wing also incorporated larger ailerons and squared-off wingtips. These innovations enhanced the roll-rate of the Thunderbolt and improved the maneuverability. The dorsal fin behind the bubble canopy was somewhat larger than that on the P-47D. However, the increased fuel load increased the gross weight of the aircraft. In order to cope with the increased gross weight, the undercarriage of the XP-47N had to be strengthened, which increased the weight still further. The maximum weight rose to over 20,000 pounds.
And of course the mouth-watering performance data:
Performance of the P-47N-5-RE included a maximum speed of 397 mph at 10,000 feet, 448 mph at at 25,000 feet, and 460 mph at 30,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 2770 feet per minute at 5000 feet and 2550 feet per minute at 20,000 feet. Range (clean) was 800 miles at 10,000 feet. Armanent included six or eight 0.50-inch machine guns with 500 rpg and two 1000-lb or three 500-lb bombs or ten 5-inch rockets. Weights were 11,000 pounds empty, 16,300 pounds normal loaded, and 20,700 pounds maximum. Dimension were wingspan 42 feet 7 inches, length 36 feet 4 inches, height 14 feet 7 inches, and wing area 322 square feet.
:aok
OK...the real question, is it perkable? I say nay due to the climb rate. I bet it would be a real pig fully loaded with gas too (not that I'd do that).
Magoo
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One fast pig there.
20.000 lbs...wholly cow!
Doesn't climb at all, so probably just a low ENY and no perk, but I bet it dives like a torpedo, and rolls like a 190.
Let's have it.
Anyway, that P47 we're about to get looks really really nice.
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I'd like to see a P-47M or N, the Mustang IA, P-40K or N, a Fairey Firely (yes, I know, not currently modeled, but would make a nice CV plane addition), Hawker Fury/Sea Fury for a late war perk ride.
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Originally posted by paulieb
I'd like to see a P-47M or N, the Mustang IA, P-40K or N, a Fairey Firely (yes, I know, not currently modeled, but would make a nice CV plane addition), Hawker Fury/Sea Fury for a late war perk ride.
Hawker Fury and Sea Fury were both post war fighters, with the Sea Fury not arriving until September of 1946.
My regards,
Widewing
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My mistake. I saw a website that said they were delivered in '45. Guess they were wrong.
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If we are talkin Ponies and Jugs as in this upcoming release
P-47D5 or there about early version of jug
P-47M or N (possibly perked)
P-51C with malcom hood.
If we are talking in general.
We really need more spits. Be a LW or a Britt fan you have to agree that the Spits are extreamly under represented.
SpitVIII and SpitXII one or both wing clipped versions.
Plus I would like to see one more Seafire version added.
Another plane that we DESPERATLY need new versions of is the Mossie!! We have one early war version, thats it.
A slight need is a sea hurricane.
And yes we could and should have more 190 and 109 versions as well.
Other then that we do need alot of totally new planes. But this obviously is a different topic.
Tex
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TexMurphy,
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Spits are hardly "extremely under represented". However, lacking a Merlin 66 Spitfire is like lacking the P-51D and having the P-51B as the P-51.
The Mosquito we have is not an early war Mosquito as it entered service in July, 1943. Frankly no Mosquito is really an early war aircraft as they only saw very light service in 1941 with 1942 seeing the first significant service by the Mosquito B.Mk IV and Mosquito F.Mk II.
I do wish the Mossie in AH didn't have those dang flame dampers.
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While we're talking about added versions, let's not forget the T-34. Our 76mm gunned model ahs limited utility, and it seems to me that the primary justification for the modelling of the T-34 is the availability of the T-34/85 with very little additional work.
So, I'd expect the 85mm will be coming along as well.
Should it be perked?
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If the conversation is expanded to include variants beyond those planes which have recieved AH2 standard models, I would most like to see the Yak-9UT. This is soley for personal reasons, and has absolutely nothing to do with what the planeset needs, or what ToD needs, or even Special Events (which is funny coming from me, as I'm usually approaching it from that angle).
Using Tony William's gun effectiveness article, the Yak-9UT should have over twice the weight of fire as the Yak-9U that we have. As this is the most glaring weakness of the Yak-9U (in my opinion) I think that the addition of this monster would prove rather popular in the MA. Depending on what performance loss there may be, this would give the Yak greater firepower than the La-7, which may make it a more attractive option to some. Granted the La-7 with WEP still owns the Yak, but at least one thing would close up the gap.
I would really love to try out the combo of 1xNS-37 and 2xB20 cannons. It's just scary how fun that would be.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Karnak
TexMurphy,
I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not. Spits are hardly "extremely under represented". However, lacking a Merlin 66 Spitfire is like lacking the P-51D and having the P-51B as the P-51.
The Mosquito we have is not an early war Mosquito as it entered service in July, 1943. Frankly no Mosquito is really an early war aircraft as they only saw very light service in 1941 with 1942 seeing the first significant service by the Mosquito B.Mk IV and Mosquito F.Mk II.
I do wish the Mossie in AH didn't have those dang flame dampers.
No Im not sarcastic but I might be overexhadurating (sp?) a bit. We do need more spit versions, it is under represented in terms of how many versions of the spits there where and how many we have.
As to the mossie. Sorry for saying early war when I ment early mossie version.
Tex