Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bigsky on May 15, 2005, 04:08:05 PM
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Mexico furious at tough US law on migrants
By John Authers in Mexico City and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: May 13 2005 19:27 | Last updated: May 13 2005 19:27
Mexico has reacted furiously to a bill signed into law by the US this week that would fund a border wall and prevent illegal Mexican migrants from obtaining US driving licences.
President Vicente Fox said he would lodge a diplomatic complaint, and was considering complaints to multilateral bodies if Mexico could not unable to resolve the problem bilaterally.
In the US, leaders of the Mexican community threatened to strike to send a message to US employers that they could not survive without cheap Mexican labour.
Santiago Creel, Mexico's interior secretary, said the “Real ID” law was “negative, inconvenient, and obstructionist”.
“Building walls doesn't help anyone build a good neighbourhood,” he said. “Taking away the possibility of obtaining driving licences for people who are working in legal jobs, who pay their taxes there, who send remittances home here, seems to us to be an extreme measure, particularly given the new understanding that we thought we had after the re-election of President Bush.”
Andrés Manuel López Obrador, mayor of Mexico City, supported Mr Fox's stance. He said the problem of growing immigration could be “resolved by encouraging development in Mexico and Central America, not by building walls and using the border control”.
Since 2002, Mexico has adopted a popular policy of issuing undocumented labourers with consular identity cards, which are accepted as proof of identity by many US states for issuing driving licences, and for opening bank accounts. Under the new law, this would no longer be possible. The immigration provisions approved by Congress were attached by House Republicans to a bill that will provide more than $80bn for the war in Iraq this year, giving lawmakers little choice but to support it.
The White House, which at first opposed the new restrictions, supported them when it became clear they would pass Congress in spite of administration opposition.
President George W. Bush has said he wants to deal with illegal immigration by creating a temporary guest worker programme. But many Republicans are using the anxiety about terrorism to push for a crackdown on illegal immigrants.
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/bf6dcbe2-c3da-11d9-a56d-00000e2511c8.html
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Vicente Fox couldn't care less about respecting our laws.
I guess he's probably a vocal supporter for illegal immigrants flooding into Mexico from the south. He probably welcomes them, gives them licenses, health care, schooling and etc.
Tough watermelon Fox.
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Andrés Manuel López Obrador, mayor of Mexico City, supported Mr Fox's stance. He said the problem of growing immigration could be “resolved by encouraging development in Mexico and Central America, not by building walls and using the border control”.
Why is it that the USA has to encourage development instead of Mexico?
Building walls doesn't help anyone build a good neighbourhood
I always thought it was a "better fences build better neighbors" or something like that.
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What does Fox think "illegal" means?
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Imagine a 10 year joint program to build a canal along the Mexican - US board. Mostly US founding and Mexican labor.
It would solve the immigration problem short term, create a a much more manageable border and save shipping costs and reduce prices for some consumer products.
However, American farmers would suffer due to the shortage in field hands.
Fox is only upset because 'illegal immigration' is one of Mexico's top industries. The Mexican economy depends on migrant and other illegals sending their cash home.
Mexico also has oil reserves but doesn't have the industry nor funding to tap into it.
If the US doesn't ecourage and aid in the economic development of Mexico then illegal immigration will always be a problem.
Alot Mexico's problem, however, are internal. Until these are addressed by a strong leader Mexico will never climb out of the "Third World".
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Let them whine and strike. Companys that survive will take their low paying jobs to another country we farm jobs out to, then Mexico goes to the dumps more then it already has.
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Originally posted by bigsky
“Taking away the possibility of,... who send remittances home here.”
I believe this may be the issue.
A good chunk of the Mexican economy is probably fueled by this.
edit:Looks like Wotan hit it before I got there.:rolleyes:
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So it is ok for them to come to this country illegally, pay no taxes, and become a drain on our economy. How about 4 families living in a single family zoned area? How about turning a driveway into a parking lot/used car lot? Pics of a house about 2 blocks away.
(http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191450_Im_IMG_0632_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116558) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0633_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116559) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0634_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116560)
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Originally posted by schizer
So it is ok for them to come to this country illegally, pay no taxes, and become a drain on our economy. How about 4 families living in a single family zoned area? How about turning a driveway into a parking lot/used car lot? Pics of a house about 2 blocks away.
(http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191450_Im_IMG_0632_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116558) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0633_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116559) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0634_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116560)
An you know for a fact these people are illegal aliens? Nice house and cars for illegals.
ack-ack
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Heh....of course Foxx is upset, all his problem children run thru our boder and bleed our resources. With enforcement and a wall up, heck, they'll have to finally take care of their own!
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Originally posted by schizer
So it is ok for them to come to this country illegally, pay no taxes, and become a drain on our economy. How about 4 families living in a single family zoned area? How about turning a driveway into a parking lot/used car lot? Pics of a house about 2 blocks away.
(http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191450_Im_IMG_0632_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116558) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0633_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116559) (http://www.imagehigh.com/public_html/imagehigh/15052005191451_Im_IMG_0634_(Large).JPG) (http://www.imagehigh.com/view.php?image_id=116560)
maybe they all work at walmart, and thats just how many paychecks it takes to live in your hood.
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we will continue to have the problem so long as we allow the employers to continue to hire illegals.
there should be a 3-5 day national waiting period on new hires for any job no matter how trivial and the records would be checked at a fedral level like the gun buying waiting period... consular ID's would not pass.
Anyone hiring an illegal without going through the process would get a mandatory 1 year jail sentance.
once the flood of illegals looking for work dried up we could concentrate on the few who would be coming over for criminal or terrorist purposes.
lazs
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We actually brought in the Secret Service once.
25 employees (out of 800) were found to be carrying false ID's.
Companies are not equipped to spot these people. The most common fraud was simply using the ID of a family member who was a citizen. SSN's are legit, DL picture legit.
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Originally posted by bigsky
if Mexico could not unable to resolve the problem bilaterally.....
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my son wants to go into print journalism. I think I know where he can intern during the summers. As a PROOF READER!:rolleyes:
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Fox is a racist as well.
"There is no doubt that Mexicans, filled with dignity, willingness and ability to work are doing jobs that not even blacks want to do there in the United States," he said in a speech broadcast in part on local radio and reported on newspaper web sites.
Fox said recent, tougher measures against immigrants do not represent "the road we should be building between friends and partners."
I say we invade.
Make mexico states 51 through 54. Then the people wont be used as cheap almost slave labour. We can just jail anyone who has ever been part of the mexican governent.
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you can invade, just don't get rid of the all-inclusive resorts, I hate carrying money around to get drunk.
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Fox and Mexico can go screw themselves. Mexico has all the resources they need to become a world power.....it's been at their fingertips for hundreds of years, but the people are too stupid, lazy, greedy, or corrupt to make that country a success.
I laugh when I hear of Mexicans "re-claiming" the southern US. If they did aquire the southern US, they would just turn it into northern Mexico.....no different than any other part of Mexico.
It's not the land, it's the system. Too bad for Mexicans, their system and government keeps them in 3rd world status.
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Originally posted by parker00
I always thought it was a "better fences build better neighbors" or something like that.
In Mexico if you build a home or business without a fence or wall around the perimiter, you won't have anything to come home to. So just the same, unless we build a wall or block the border, we won't have the good O'l U.S. of A. to come home to either.
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Originally posted by lazs2
we will continue to have the problem so long as we allow the employers to continue to hire illegals.
there should be a 3-5 day national waiting period on new hires for any job no matter how trivial and the records would be checked at a fedral level like the gun buying waiting period... consular ID's would not pass.
Anyone hiring an illegal without going through the process would get a mandatory 1 year jail sentance.
once the flood of illegals looking for work dried up we could concentrate on the few who would be coming over for criminal or terrorist purposes.
lazs
Read Midnight's post.
Once the Mexican economy finally picks up, then maybe Mexicans wont be so eager to leave their homes to look for work in another country.
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If we jail people who hire illegals then they won't be coming here for work. A central clearing house and 5 day waiting period for new hires would work. If no one believes that a 5 day waiting period or background check by the feds has any value then why the hell do they do it for buying a firearm?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
If we jail people who hire illegals then they won't be coming here for work. A central clearing house and 5 day waiting period for new hires would work. If no one believes that a 5 day waiting period or background check by the feds has any value then why the hell do they do it for buying a firearm?
lazs
We need to jail anybody from any government agency who doles out any assistence to illegals too. Also, jail any illegal who gets caught in the US for a second time.
Also, ZERO benifits or US rights to any illegal. Screen them at schools, hospitals..etc......and deport them as they are found.
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Originally posted by lazs2
If we jail people who hire illegals then they won't be coming here for work. A central clearing house and 5 day waiting period for new hires would work. If no one believes that a 5 day waiting period or background check by the feds has any value then why the hell do they do it for buying a firearm?
lazs
Instant checks would work, but who is going to pay for that kind of system to be put in place? Every employer in America would have to have access. I am all for punishing employers that knowingly hire illegals, dont get me wrong on that. It's just not gonna cure the problem imo.
Look at it this way. Would you leave the USA for any other country? Most likely not.
IF you lived in poverty with no health care, didnt know for sure if you could feed the kids tomorrow or not etc, you would probably start thinking about moving somewhere else. That's the root of the problem imo. Mexicans want a better standard of living that their gov't isnt helping provide, so they look elsewhere.
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Originally posted by lazs2
If we jail people who hire illegals then they won't be coming here for work. A central clearing house and 5 day waiting period for new hires would work. If no one believes that a 5 day waiting period or background check by the feds has any value then why the hell do they do it for buying a firearm?
lazs
Jobs don't kill people................. hey wait a minute!
Sometimes it's impossible to tell laz. I worked with a guy for 5 years. When he was fired I found out he was using his brother's name and ID.
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MT... I am not asking yu to "tell". I am talking a federal program like the 5 day waiting period for firearms purchase... If it wouldn't work then why do we have it for firearms?
The person who did the hiring would not be liable if the illegal passed the 5 day waiting period/background check.
lazs
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We already do a background check. Maybe the Feds could save us some money.
Protecting our borders is why we pay taxes. I say they need to be protected.
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Illegals push wages down so it's hard for anyone else to compete for a liviable wage.
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MT... maybe the reason you had so few illegals was because you do background checks. Most do not. A federal waiting period would probly stop 99% of all illegal hirings... that is the figure claimed for success of the 5 day national waiting period for firearms.
lazs
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Originally posted by Vincent Fox “Building walls doesn't help anyone build a good neighbourhood,” he said. “Taking away the possibility of obtaining driving licences for people who are working in legal jobs, who pay their taxes there, who send remittances home here, seems to us to be an extreme measure, particularly given the new understanding that we thought we had after the re-election of President Bush.”
I think Vincent Fox spends too much time away from Mexico because he obviously doesn't seem to know what actually happens between Mexico and Texas.
First of all, most that cross are ILLEGAL. His term of 'working legal jobs' is nice though. Makes it sound wholesome like apple pie and baseball. Yes, working construction is a 'legal job' but being here is illegally is...well, illegal all the same.
Drivers licences for illegals? Are you nucking futs? This isn't the liberal Democratic state of Idiocy...I mean, California. Why should someone who is illegally here be given a drivers licences? Isn't it illegal for them to be here in the first place?
'Pay their taxes'. That is a fig bucking joke. They are illegal. How are we going to collect taxes from them? They are usually paid with cash. Without a legal SSN, how are we getting their taxes again?
'Send remittances home here'...here is the diamond in the bull****. We (the US) are the second biggest source of foreign economy after selling oil.
Vincent Fox wants more Mexican to leave Mexico. Less people in his country to worry about, reduces unemployment, creates more money coming back to Mexico.
I'm tired of my taxes going to people who don't pay taxes so that they can be here illegally, getting free medical, and living on welfare.
So there.
[edit] The freaking wall would stop illegals coming into the country. Not those who can get into the country legally.
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I remember when Fox was on Hannity and Colmes. Hannity asked him if illegals were breaking the law entering the US illegally.
He refused to say that what they were doing was illegal, even though he was pressed over and over.
Sean asked if they were breaking any laws....all he would say is that they are "migrant workers"
He refused to aknowledge that our laws are being broken. He has only one view, and that is: Mexicans must be allowed to work in the US, no matter what immigration laws we may have.
Now he throws a tantrum becuase of the real ID law. Tough cookies Fox.
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Two words for Fox come to mind.
Tough Chit.
Be happy Im not running things or I'd make Mexico a State.
Or at the very least a US territory
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Two words for Fox come to mind.
Tough Chit.
Be happy Im not running things or I'd make Mexico a State.
Or at the very least a US territory
You sure about that???? Then we would have to pay even more taxes to cover their real population's health and social services as opposed to the 10-20M illegally here now. Heck, maybe that's what Fox really wants. Piss us off enough that we annex his head ache away......................... ..
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Originally posted by bustr
You sure about that???? Then we would have to pay even more taxes to cover their real population's health and social services as opposed to the 10-20M illegally here now. Heck, maybe that's what Fox really wants. Piss us off enough that we annex his head ache away......................... ..
Yes the intitial investment would be great but it would also payoff greatly down the road. Mexico has alot of undeveloped resources. Not to mention an underdeveloped tourist industry.
Gotta spend money to make money
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If the DMV issues licences to criminals then why not give licences to those who have had their licence susspended because of tickets or drunk driving? Why not issue licence plates to stolen vehicles on demand?
In fact... why have a DMV at all? Just send in the proper fee to get a drivers licence or regester a car. No need to check on anything.
lazs
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Mexico has a huge double standard problem. They view the US as their dumping ground for undesirables as well as a source of money. It's all about what's in it for them. Anyone who has spent any time in Mexico learns about that situation very fast. It's their country and they want the US to be their country as well. This is not to slight the majority of Mexican people. They are a good and decent population. It's their government and history of corruption that sucks pond scum.
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http://www.billoreilly.com/pg/jsp/general/genericpageblue.jsp?pageID=484
just signed it..
THERE TAKEN OUR JAWBS!!!!"South PArk"
btw I wroked for many years in ag...Kiwi's-grapes-Peaches-Plums-pears-walnuts..
seen all sorts of legal..and illegals...Dam shame we use slave labor..Its defnly the owners doing this
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You can now join
Or make a donation
http://minutemanhq.com/ (http://minutemanhq.com/)
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Originally posted by lazs2
we will continue to have the problem so long as we allow the employers to continue to hire illegals.
there should be a 3-5 day national waiting period on new hires for any job no matter how trivial and the records would be checked at a Federal level like the gun buying waiting period... consular ID's would not pass.
Anyone hiring an illegal without going through the process would get a mandatory 1 year jail sentence.
once the flood of illegals looking for work dried up we could concentrate on the few who would be coming over for criminal or terrorist purposes.
lazs
you definitely attacking the source of the problem. the only way that will work. hungry people will come as long as they have a chance at employment.
just pointing out the obvious, but a man with nothing to lose has nothing to lose. it's worth the risk. but if they came up to find nobody willing to hire them there would be no point, nothing to gain to go with the nothing to lose.
I disagree with the waiting period though. many of my jobs in the last 20 years were hired on a "how soon can you get here if we start paying you as of the time we hang up?", very few had more than 2-5 days notice.
I'd think requiring the employer to pay a fine of about 4 times the cost of hiring Americans or legal aliens(including health care, comp expenses, state UI premiums and a pension), combined with thorough checks of hiring records would be enough. multiply the fines by 10 and add jail time if fraud is found in the record.
if, as I've heard so many times, "our economy needs illegals to do the jobs Americans don't want", then the jobs would be available for legal aliens and many of the same workers could come back legaly, or maybe we could try some of that 'free-market' I keep hearing those cooperate types raving about, and they can just continue to up the wages and benefits to these 'undesirable jobs' until they become more desirable.
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(http://minutemanhq.com/Assets/Images/db_images/db_Picture_0191.jpg)
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hungry people will come as long as they have a chance at employment.
If those hungry people are no longer hungry, they will no longer try to come here.
The root of the problem isnt simply that employers are willing to hire them. The vast majority of people will not pack up and leave their homeland unless there is a very good reason to do so.
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I have been hired in the past on "how soon can you start" but... those days are about over in any case what with drug scereening and such.. No...
I don't think a 2-5 day waiting period would hurt anyone. People could even get "pre screened" when out looking for employment. Any job more than "landscaper helper" or "maid" doesn't need instant attention.
Mandatory jail time for employers who circumvent the rule. Then people in the community would know just who is screwing them and the legal bussineses.
It hurts everyone when a good roofing contractor or plastering contractor goes out of bussines because he can't compete with the scumbag who hires a crew of illegals.
lazs
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I agree with lazs......make a mandatory waiting period, punish employers who violate hiring laws.....dunno if jail time would suffice though.
Confiscating any and all business related equipment would put a dent in their ability to get anything done at all. Take their work trucks, their tractors, plows, spraying equipment, etc.....anything that has to do with their job, gets confiscated and held until they show evidence of 100% compliance with employment laws.
I'm all for any measures that stem the flow of or eliminate the flow of illegal immigrants.
I've worked enough places to know that many, not all, of them know more about the loopholes than we do, and work them to the max.
Case in point:
Worked in a plant that made hams and bacon and other pork related products about 10 years ago.
Talked to the HR people and they told me that nearly 75% of the workers we had did NOT speak English, were not "legal" when they were hired, but they had a kid here in the US and being the parents of an American citizen, well.......all kinds of neat stuff opened up for them.
The system, as it is now, has no teeth, offers no real incentives to become legal or an American citizen, and favors the illegals. Have a couple kids here and the system absorbs them and practically subsidizes their being here.
The ones I managed to get to talk with actually laughed at me, as they were sending a lot of their paychecks each week back to Mexico to their extended families, all the while drawing Welfare or other government checks, and living better than most of the natural born citizens working there.
I mean, one actually told me, almost verbatim, that it paid him to have more kids, cause the government checks just got larger with every child, and that made him able to send more back to Mexico. We were working 80-100 hours a week, working 7 days a week, and he said he could pay all his bills with what he made on about 30 of those hours. The rest went back to Mexico, where the exchange rate allowed his relatives to live pretty well.
Mexico has the natural resources to make their economy attractive enough to keep workers from doing anything and everything to get into this country....the government is just too lazy and corrupt to do it. Far easier to just leave things as they are and be a sponge on their northern neighbor.
Just my thoughts, nothing more..........
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edd... My plan would have it so that the illegals would not even bother to cross and hence... no children born to illegals who don't speak english...
The resultant 90% or more decrease in those crossing the border would allow our border forces to concentrate on the real criminals.
Mandatory jail time for employers would do it. They would lose their licence and what would they do with their equipment while in jail? store it at hundreds of dollars a month? No... they would sell it to pay legal fees or let it go with forclosure issues.
It wouldn't take long for allmost total compliance... look at the gun bussines... there are very few cases... allmost none... per year of gun stores selling guns "under the table".
lazs
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Gotcha and agree, lazs.
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Vincete is an a**hole, and has been in a long string of corrput Mexican "Presidente's".
Illegal's are illegal's. The American Taxpayers should NOT have to give them a free ride or benefits that are due taxpayers. If they ARE in the country illegally, sorry but, screw em.
Karaya
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Here’s the real ball buster,
Mexico keeps their army on the Guatemalan border, to prevent illegals from coming into Mexico.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Vincete is an a**hole, and has been in a long string of corrput Mexican "Presidente's".
Illegal's are illegal's. The American Taxpayers should NOT have to give them a free ride or benefits that are due taxpayers. If they ARE in the country illegally, sorry but, screw em.
Karaya
Ditto
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I'd imagine you're still going to get some resistance when you tell the company that runs a large coal-fire plant that they have to wait a week or so to hire a guy to repair a ruptured tube.
the smaller ones are losing over $250K an hour when they are shut down. small chemical-recovery boilers in the paper industry cost over $125k a day to be down.
that doesn't even take into account the resistance from the public who tend to expect the lights to come on when you throw the switch.
this is just one industry, I'm sure it's not the worst example. what about the equipment operators they hire to clear a landslide on the HWY? you really want to just shut down the hwy while we wait through these checks?
in an average year I'll be hired between 8 and 15 times. thats a lot of sitting on my prettythang with a week off between each one.
waiting periods accomplish little or nothing. just pass the law, do checks often, and enforce the law with stiff penalties.
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wrong apathy.... you do not hire someone to fix your boiler.
You hire a contractor to fix your boiler and he sends someone... someone he has hired...
The contractor is responsible not the person who hired the contractor.
I mean seriously... a company that runs a large coal fired boiler.... one that costs the company $250,000 an hour when it is shut down.... do you seriously think they wait till it is broke down then go to the safeway parking lot with a sign that says "boiler workers needed for two days work" ??
Nope... they hire a licenced contractor who is insured and bonded and has a crew of probly dozens of workers and is capable of responding in a very short time..
lazs
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JBA..my sister lived in Oaxaca ..Oaxaca City for over a year an da half..
I spent a week down there for x-mas..I toured
The USA was paying the Mexiacn Army to play border patrol
They wanted to stop the south americans from migrating to the usa...thi swas during all those landslides ..flooding
We were on a tour to see soem ruins and soem famous carpet weavers..and of course..the ALMIGHTY AGAVE PLANTS!!!!!
so we were on this run down bus..drive thru a checkpoint..Looked lIek 15 year olds with MAchine guns..Looked to be FAL's,,where the F are the m16s!! u mean there buying foreign rifles..wtf?..
So they coem on the bus..search and ?s all th edark skins..I was scared..I had no documetation...(another story--i passed thru customs in mexcico city before they set up---I had no papaerword..except my drivers license.lolo)
They didnt even bother askn me..they just asked all the dark skins..
was kind of fuuny
althought they did have gun pits with sandbags and machine guns hangn out..that was funny lookn
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Originally posted by lazs2
wrong apathy.... you do not hire someone to fix your boiler.
You hire a contractor to fix your boiler and he sends someone... someone he has hired...
The contractor is responsible not the person who hired the contractor.
I mean seriously... a company that runs a large coal fired boiler.... one that costs the company $250,000 an hour when it is shut down.... do you seriously think they wait till it is broke down then go to the safeway parking lot with a sign that says "boiler workers needed for two days work" ??
Nope... they hire a licensed contractor who is insured and bonded and has a crew of probly dozens of workers and is capable of responding in a very short time..
lazs
wrong
no need to go to Safeway. it's a short list of qualified guys and they know who's on it.
they call a licensed contractor who calls the Union hall to find out who is available in the area (with the ability, licensing and qualifications to make the repair), offer him the job, if he's interested they hire him, he shows up and makes the repair, gets laid-off and goes home.
I know 'cause the guy they call is me.
most companies only keep some of their supervision employed at anything close to full time.
non-union companies have their own lists but since their is no central record of who is or isn't available in the area, they mainly do planned outages or emergency work for plants that are so poorly maintained that they have enough failures to warrant keeping people with those kinds of skills on hand full time.
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so apathy... are you proving my point or yours? the boiler company doesn't stand on the border waiting to hire the first person who responds to their cardboard sign.
They wouldn't be hiring anyone so far as the national waiting period was concerned... the contractor would have taken care of the waiting period for them.
Sooo... how would my plan affect the $250,000 and hour boiler in the least? How would it affect anyone except illegal aliens and the people who are cheating us all by hiring them?
lazs