Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DipStick on May 17, 2005, 06:43:51 PM
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Separate Arena "Furball Arena" would be nice, also works as a CT setup if someone would create map below. :D
(http://furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/userfiles/DipStick/ds-fa3.bmp)
Arena Settings - Same as Ma except:
2 Countries
No Scoring
Bases on 3k mounds
Aircraft Available:
Early Bases:
A6M2
Bf 109E-4
Bf 109F-4
C.202
FM2
Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane IID
P-40B
Spitfire Mk IA
All Early Bases aircraft available at both fields.
Mid Bases:
A6M5b
A6M2
Bf 109E-4
Bf 109F-4
Bf 109G-2
Bf 109G-6
C.202
C.205
F4U-1
F4U-1D
F6F-5
FM2
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190F-8
Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane IIC
Hurricane IID
Ki-61-I-KAIc
Ki-84-Ia
La-5FN
N1K2-J
P-38G
P-38J
P-40B
P-40E
P-47D-11
P-47D-25
P-51B
Seafire IIC
Spitfire Mk IA
Spitfire V
Spitfire Mk IX
Typhoon
Yak-9T
All Mid Bases available at both fields +others above.
Late Bases:
All the above plus --
Bf 109G-10
F4U-4
F4U-C
Fw 190D-9
La-7
P-38L
P-47D-30
P-51D
Spitfire Mk XIV
Tempest
Yak-9U
All Late Bases aircraft available at both fields +others above.
Single Plane:
A plane vs plane matchup, such as we have done on the Sunday thing would be cool. Have to be 1 plane only at each field and change every week.
ie: p-40b vs c.202
d-11 vs la-5
109e vs spit9
p-38l vs 109g-10
As always input is a good thing... let'r rip! ;)
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I don't think everyone would like the limited 8K down WIND and NO SCORE.
Some people suggested to put a 30,000 feet barrier wall.
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See my other post.
c202 vs p40b is landslide victory for c202.
Emil isn't even in the same generation of fighter design as the spiV, let alone the spit9. That's a horrendous matchup.
Also, you know what? It's novel right now. And that will wear off. When it does this idea will die and rightly so. I think people like it now because of its novelty. More power to you for getting it running. But it will not be a permanent fixture for AH2.
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Some people suggested to put a 30,000 feet barrier wall.
Why do you need 30,000 Feet to fight?
Rediculos.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Why do you need 30,000 Feet to fight?
Rediculos.
who would ever fite that high lol
a 30K barrier wall is designed for COMPLETE separation of races/species:D
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IF you think you need 30k to fight in here, or at all... Dont bother logging in to this arena.
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The name speaks for itself and NO ONE (including me) will bore themselves out by going waay too high (err 30K).
:)
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Whether the barrier is 8k or 30k you can still keep the 127mph downwind at 8k I don't think the terrain affects wind patterns in the arena..
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You need the barriers...
P38 in early war area says it all.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Also, you know what? It's novel right now. And that will wear off. When it does this idea will die and rightly so. I think people like it now because of its novelty. More power to you for getting it running. But it will not be a permanent fixture for AH2.
You may be right, but I dont think so. Unless HT just ignores the whole thing and it never gets beyond the CT as a rotating setup. AW had a dedicated FighterTown towards the end of its life, and it was used every night. Before that they had a section of their PAC map that had all three countries on small islands in a circle we used as a fightertown. Even when the arena was otherwise empty, you could find people there at those 3 islands blasting away at each other.
It's not something you do all night every night. At least not for most of us. But it is a nice change of pace, and excellent practice to keep your SA up. I've always believed a good FighterTown arena would work here. As for how long it lasts, only time will tell. I think its here to stay.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Aircraft Available:
Early Bases:
A6M2
Bf 109E-4
Bf 109F-4
C.202
FM2
Hurricane Mk I
Hurricane IID
P-40B
Spitfire Mk IA
IMHO, in the early set the 109F-4 and FM-2 will own every other plane in the set; they totally outclass the others by a wide margin. Their gun packages are lethal in snapshots and have enough ammo to regularly earn 10 kills in a single sortie.
From MA Tour #63, the other fighters have the 7 worst K/Ds, from 22% to 54%. The FM-2 however is 24th (worst) on the list with a K/D of 96%. The 109F-4 is # 39 with a K/D of 130%.
Model Kills / Deaths + 1 Fighter K/D Rank : Worst = #1
Spitfire Mk I 0.2164 1
Hurricane Mk I 0.2843 2
P-40B 0.2963 3
C.202 0.3374 4
Bf 109E-4 0.3713 5
A6M2 0.4539 6
Hurricane IID 0.5372 7
F4U-1D 0.7081 8
Bf 110C-4b 0.7148 9
P-38L 0.7286 10
P-51B 0.7450 11
Bf 110G-2 0.7587 12
P-40E 0.7653 13
A6M5b 0.7689 14
P-47-D30 0.7958 15
A-20G 0.8184 16
P-51D 0.8699 17
Mosquito Mk VI 0.8831 18
Yak-9T 0.8861 19
Fw 190F-8 0.8958 20
Il-2 0.9376 21
Spitfire Mk IX 0.9420 22
F6F-5 0.9583 23
FM2 0.9639 24
F4F-4 0.9745 25
Spitfire V 1.0437 26
SeaFire 1.0628 27
Yak-9U 1.1019 28
P-38G 1.1189 29
Bf 109G-6 1.1193 30
N1K2 1.1526 31
C.205 1.1866 32
Ki-61 1.1919 33
La-5FN 1.1974 34
Bf 109G-2 1.2019 35
Hurricane IIC 1.2128 36
P-47-D25 1.2375 37
La-7 1.2514 38
Bf 109F-4 1.3042 39
Fw 190A-8 1.3058 40
F4U-1 1.3411 41
Bf 109G-10 1.3858 42
Fw 190A-5 1.4087 43
Fw 190D-9 1.4339 44
P-38J 1.4487 45
Ki-84-Ia 1.4711 46
Typhoon IB 1.5345 47
P-47D-11 1.5740 48
Spitfire Mk XIV 1.7159 49
Ta 152H 2.0918 50
F4U-1C 2.3618 51
F4U-4 2.8231 52
Me 163B 4.3255 53
Tempest 5.3295 54
Me 262 5.4234 55
eskimo
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Originally posted by DipStick
109e vs spit9
LMFAO
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its MY arena. donations of $10 will be taken on entry. if your names not on the list you not getting in.
:D
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Deleted for flame.
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Deleted for flame
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Originally posted by DipStick
eskimo - there has to be a "best" plane in EVERY setup no matter what. We flew with these planes the other night and NO plane dominated. Try it and you'll see. The Zeke was the best, go figure but fun was had by all.
I think that the rest of the planes are very much on par; they all have K/Ds of .54 or worse. The FM-2 has a K/D of .96; that's better than the Spit-9 and runstang-D. The109F-4 has a K/D of 1.3, better than the L-GAY-7. I'ts one of the best planes in the game. It's got way better guns, speed and climb than the rest of the set. Including it would be like putting the Tempest in the mid war set (or worse). Eagler was showing the Allies last night that the 109e is plenty competitive, and it isn’t half the plane that the 109f is.
There really is no point in including planes that are THAT much better. With the set-up that’s running now, all early planes are being flown, and are competitive. The 109F and FM-2 would turn it into a 2 plane show.
eskimo
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There are anomalies tour to tour, but plane type K/D is a good indicator to how good a plane is or how much it sucks. Anything with a K/D over .7 IMO, should not be considered for the early war set.
Planes with K/D's of less than .7 in Tours 62, 61, & 60:
Tour 62
Model Kills / Deaths + 1
Spitfire Mk I 0.1930
P-40B 0.2166
Hurricane Mk I 0.2751
C.202 0.3575
Bf 109E-4 0.4148
A6M2 0.4150
Hurricane IID 0.5389
Bf 110C-4b 0.6126
Fw 190F-8 0.6626
P-51B 0.6629
P-38L 0.6938
Tour 61
Model Kills / Deaths + 1
P-40B 0.1832
Spitfire Mk I 0.2185
Hurricane Mk I 0.2934
C.202 0.3931
Bf 110C-4b 0.4156
Bf 109E-4 0.4213
A6M2 0.4653
Hurricane IID 0.4869
Fw 190F-8 0.5938
P-40E 0.6239
P-38L 0.6772
F4F-4 0.6797
Tour 60
Model Kills / Deaths + 1
Spitfire Mk I 0.1778
Hurricane Mk I 0.2014
P-40B 0.2970
A6M2 0.4066
Hurricane IID 0.4547
Fw 190F-8 0.5580
C.202 0.5727
Bf 110C-4b 0.5820
Bf 109E-4 0.5822
F4F-4 0.6799
P-51B 0.6965
eskimo
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Originally posted by DipStick
Edited by HiTech
Dipstick, check your hostility at the door, son. I know you're really into this. I don't care how commited you are. I can respect your efforts UNTIL YOU TELL ME TO SHUT THE F*** UP.
Keep that in mind. You lose credibility when you resort to that type of stuff.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
There are anomalies tour to tour, but plane type K/D is a good indicator to how good a plane is or how much it sucks. Anything with a K/D over .7 IMO, should not be considered for the early war set.
Planes with K/D's of less than .7 in Tours 62, 61, & 60:
Tour 62
Model Kills / Deaths + 1
Spitfire Mk I 0.1930
P-40B 0.2166
Hurricane Mk I 0.2751
C.202 0.3575
Bf 109E-4 0.4148
A6M2 0.4150
Hurricane IID 0.5389
Bf 110C-4b 0.6126
Fw 190F-8 0.6626
P-51B 0.6629
P-38L 0.6938
Eskimo, I appreciate the time it took to compile that... However you can't only base your judgement on kills/deaths. For example, you have to take into account total kills. If a P47 hypothetically gets .9 k/d, out of 150,000 total kills, but a 190F-8 gets .9 k/d out of 150 missions, it doesn't mean they're the same.
Also Performance wise, the p38L outstrips every other plane in that early setup. The F-8 outruns most of them, too. F-8 is late war (same time frame as A-8), and I'd argue the nearly identical J/L are late war as well.
P51B has very little performance loss compared to p51D. So essentially you're putting one of the best fighters in the war ever of all time (so claimed by so many sources, jaded/biased or not) in with the earliest, most obsolete, slowest fighters in the game :P
See, what I mean is don't just base it off of the stats for a tour. They're not representative.
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Deleted for flame.
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Deleted for flame
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MA stats are not worthless, they are very good indicators. Without them all that we have are opinions. I’m not advocating that all planes under .7 should be included in the early war set, just that nothing above .7 be considered. I know that the stats can be misrepresentative, newbs fly spits a lot and drop their stats, CV killers use the P-38 heavy-load and good climb for their suicide missions, etc.
Very few players know these early planes as well as I. I’ve been flying in and against them for the past several years in the CT (where I do most of my flying). Often they are the only ride in town. I have a gazillion kills in the 109F in both the CT and MA, trust me, it way outclasses the rest of your early war set. The 202 can put up a great fight against it 1:1, but in a furball it doesn’t have the guns to close deals fast enough.
I feel very comfortable in the 109F or FM-2 in the MA, they are great furball fighters and can rack up kills quickly. This MA Tour I’ve been flying the early crappy birds (P-40b, 202, 109e, Spit-1, Hurri-1, Hurry-2D). They are a chore to fight in; any advantage quickly becomes a disadvantage. It is very difficult to kill an enemy plane before he out-dives, out-climbs, or out-runs you. Against each other, however, they can be flown for their relative strengths.
The only other planes that should be considered for the early war set might be the 110c and F4F.
If you think the 109F and FM-2 stack up well with this set, then you don’t know these birds well.
eskimo
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Take the FM2 out and replace it with the F4F-4. Add the P-40E as well. I think that would offset the F4 enough, especially with an 8k alt cap. I still think the F4 would be the best ride of the group , but like you said. One plane has be the best of the lot. Just my opinion:D
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If MA stats are worthless, then try this for a challenge:
Fly only the: F4U-4, Tempest & Me 262 for a night, (Best 3 K/D, minus me-163 because of base limitations)
Then fly only the: Seafire, Yak-9U & P-38G for a night (Mid 3 K/D)
And finally fly the: Hurry-1, Spit-1 & P-40B (Worst 3 K/D)
Let me know how it goes,
eskimo
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It depends if the uber planes are only battling uber planes, same for the other 2 matchups. In MA you get dweebs, tards, wannabes, runners, newbies, F4u4s killing baby seals that can't even match its speed. F4u4 killing zero is no contest. Same for tempest buzzing through a furball racking up 5 insta-kill snapshots without aiming because of the 4x hispanos.
Doesn't mean their K/D is valid. Just means it's higher than planes that don't let you kill without fear. And note those are some of the fastest planes in the game, too. When the 1 attack fails, or even before it fails, the pilot can just tuck tail and run, easily outpacing 98% of other planes, landing safely (adding to the K/D) but not being shot down as that pilot would assuredly have been (adding to the D in K/D).
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Originally posted by eskimo2
IMHO, in the early set the 109F-4 and FM-2 will own every other plane in the set;
Why would the FM2 even be in an early war set? It wasn't an early war plane.
- oldman
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the 109e can take the fm2 as long as you have enough ammo as the fm2 is a tank in the earlybird special arena
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Maybe I am a little dense but isn't that arena you just popped a map of the same as the current DA? There is no score for it right? You are separated by water right? Whats to stop you on your map from cruising around to other bases other than the wind? Why not use an obscene fuel multiplier like 5x or 10x in the DA?
Sorry I just don't understand the need for yet another arena to add to the game. Kill one if you have to but don't detract from resources just to have a separate air quake arena.
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Reschke
have you tried CT this week?
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Originally posted by eskimo2
If MA stats are worthless, then try this for a challenge:
Fly only the: F4U-4, Tempest & Me 262 for a night, (Best 3 K/D, minus me-163 because of base limitations)
Then fly only the: Seafire, Yak-9U & P-38G for a night (Mid 3 K/D)
And finally fly the: Hurry-1, Spit-1 & P-40B (Worst 3 K/D)
Let me know how it goes,
eskimo
OK how about only F4U-4, Tempest & Me 262s in the "arena", what's the K/D going to be?
Only Hurry-1, Spit-1 & P-40Bs, what's the K/D going to be?
You can't use Ma numbers because ALL planes are available ALL the time and you have to add "noobies" and "score-potatos" and "base-takers", etc... to the equation.
Originally posted by Reschke
Maybe I am a little dense but isn't that arena you just popped a map of the same as the current DA? There is no score for it right? You are separated by water right? Whats to stop you on your map from cruising around to other bases other than the wind? Why not use an obscene fuel multiplier like 5x or 10x in the DA?
Sorry I just don't understand the need for yet another arena to add to the game. Kill one if you have to but don't detract from resources just to have a separate air quake arena.
No
Correct
No
8K cliffs and downwind at 8k I figured this would work, if not 30k cliffs would 'probably' do.
No habla the question
There's no need for you to understand it. If it doesn't appeal to you then that's ok. Why would you want to deprive someone else who might enjoy it of the chance?
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@ Eagler....No I haven't tried the setup. It doesn't appeal to me and I have said as much. If it was run a little later on after more thought than a few days then yes I would have tried it out.
@ Dipstick
How is that map not like the DA map? I know its not the same but it is similar in layout and would only require a small change in the setup to allow for aircraft to be enabled at the various bases.
Since you didn't understand let me spell it out about the fuel multiplier. Instead of putting in cliffs and wind layers why not crank the fuel multiplier way up that way you are limited to a very short range around the base you start from. Plus it keeps the fights at that seemingly magical number you guys all keep spouting out of 8k or less. Since there is no score being kept then you certainly don't need to land the plane so why worry.
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Originally posted by Reschke
How is that map not like the DA map? I know its not the same but it is similar in layout and would only require a small change in the setup to allow for aircraft to be enabled at the various bases.
Since you didn't understand let me spell it out about the fuel multiplier. Instead of putting in cliffs and wind layers why not crank the fuel multiplier way up that way you are limited to a very short range around the base you start from. Plus it keeps the fights at that seemingly magical number you guys all keep spouting out of 8k or less. Since there is no score being kept then you certainly don't need to land the plane so why worry.
The main reason would be that we have no control over the DA settings period. The DA is totally different. The DA is for practice and 1vs1 or so, when griefers don't screw it up. The DA is for squads to practice jabo and GVs to practice their gunnery, etc... I wouldn't change the DA settings even if I could, it's good the way it is for what it is.
It's not made for fun furballing (20 or so) in slower planes, without cherry-pickers diving in for the easy kill or fun police killing the FHs or vulching. This would be. Like I said, "If it doesn't appeal to you then that's ok". If that's true, then there's nothing to say to you but enjoy what you do. Cya!