Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Red Tail 444 on May 23, 2005, 09:17:32 AM
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WTFG US Army.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/washpost/20050523/ts_washpost/tillman_s_parents_are_critical_of_army
Now that the word's out about Tillman's death there won't be ANY trouble getting kids too poor to get into college enlisted.
Anyone willing to step in and try to refute the fact that the US Army straight up lied to the family, and the rest of us, about Tillman's "heroic" death? If this doesn't completely piss you off, there's something seriously wrong with you.
BTW, what happened to all the Tillman Avatars? Did the novelty finally wear off on you guys? Where's the love, man? :confused:
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You mean he wasn't killed by friendly fire after all ? It was a lie ?
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A big black eye for all involved. The fact that the Army tried to sell the "he died barking orders as he charged a hill" story makes me sick. :mad:
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"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
It's just a shame all the way around. He was a real American hero and role model - the Army did him, his family, itself, and all of the rest of us, really, a great disservice by fabricating the story surrounding his death in combat.
I wonder if they will discipline those officers involved in the coverup.
I'm still thinking 'draft' in the back of my mind, no matter what they say publicly.
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Remember the Jessica Lynch fiasco? Brass and politicians tried to propagandize her story. Fortunately, she would have none of it and came forward to say so publicly.
Tillman was not a role model for the way he died, he was for what he did before his death.
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Interesting and sad.
Whats with the dad talking about a homicide though? Does he think his son was murdered and not an acident?
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Pat Tillman was a hero and true patriot.
God bless all those who are serving and who have served our country. Pat Tillman joined the army out of a sense of duty for our country and there are many, many others who have joined the armed forces for the same reasons.
I find it ironic that Red Tail wants to use his death for some small minded point of his.
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dont get me wrong, i like america and i like americans.
but this is yet another reason why the "holier than thou" attitude pisses me off.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pat Tillman was a hero and true patriot.
I will always remember him.
Pat Tillman being killed by friendly fire is old news, I guess the washington post is a little slow...
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His sacrifice is appreciated by me. I never knew the guy personaly, didnt even know he existed until he died (I could care less about phoosball).
Im not surprised the government lied. they should not have lied about his sacrifice obviously something is broken in rumsfields pentagon but I dont expect anything to change. Serving the country is the highest honor even if blue on blue kills you, **** happens.
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How is it a "Heroic" death when he was killed by his own squad? Didn't the other guy empty every round of .50cal from a Humvee into the hillside he was on.
...-Gixer
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How is it a "Heroic" death when he was killed by his own squad?
Dude, who said it was heroic? Or are you so poorly versed in English that you don't recognize what the " " are for?
The way the army handled the whole thing is infuriating. It's an embarrassment, really.
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Why did he stand up when someone was shooting at him? That was a new guy mistake. The story went like this if I remember right:
Tillman and another guy were behind a large rock. Some rangers shot at them. Tillman yelled something, then stood up. He was promptly shot.
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The story went like this if I remember right:[/B]
Not really.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35717-2004Dec4.html
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Smoke drifted from a signal grenade Tillman had detonated minutes before in a desperate bid to show his platoon members they were shooting the wrong men. The firing had stopped. Tillman had stood up, chattering in relief. Then the machine gun bursts erupted again.
"I could hear the pain in his voice," recalled the young Ranger days later to Army investigators. Tillman kept calling out that he was a friendly, and he shouted, "I am Pat [expletive] Tillman, damn it!" His comrade recalled: "He said this over and over again until he stopped."
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sad
very sad, all the way around
can't imagine the hole in his families heart
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It is very sad and frustrating that this stuff happens. A guy like Pat Tillman would probably not want to make a big deal out of this if he were still around.
I just have a great deal of respect for anyone who serves our country and it makes me upset to see Pat Tillman's name being thrown around like it has.
He was a hero and I admire his outlook on life. He seemed to be a real special person.
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Originally posted by NUKE
A guy like Pat Tillman would probably not want to make a big deal out of this if he were still around.
No NUKE, you don't want anyone to make a big deal out of this and persuant to that agenda you are trying to ascribe your motivations and desires to a dead hero. If you are so comfortable about knowing what Pat Tillman would or would not want, why don't you phone his parents and tell them what they are doing is wrong because you know thier son so much better than they do.
I just have a great deal of respect for anyone who serves our country and it makes me upset to see Pat Tillman's name being thrown around like it has.
What incredible hypocracy.
That being said, it sounds to me like their was an attempt at a cover-up. I don't know how high it went, but it wouldn't surprise me if it went little higher than his unit, at best they certainly did take part in it. And I think I could understand why. I'm guessing a combination of trying to protect Pat's legacy and fear of someone going down in history as the guy that killed one of the most famous Americans to fight in the Afghan War. However, regardless of the form his death did take it does not detract on iota from the nobility of his decision to fight for his country in the first place.
As far as any failures in US Army regarding this incident. There is only one if the coverup was farther reaching than we know. And we just don't know at this point in time. Still, they proably shouldn't have "sold" the story of how Pat Tillman died until it had been properly vetted. Because if they are wrong it's just going to end up bitting them in the ass, much like it is now.
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Thanks for proving what a complete, distasteful moron you are Thrawn. You seem to be nothing other than a hateful loser, based on your posting history.
I admire your ability constantly display your poor judgment.
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Why am I on your ignore list Nuke?
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my ignore list is not real. Thrawn is a simpleton and probably is on a lot of ignore lists.
Thrawn doessn't even know what "hypocrite" means apparently. The Day that Thrawn can support any of his moronic statements is the day that sub 100 IQ's are considered intelligent.
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I will say again. I have the highest respect for all of the people who serve and have served in the US military. You people are teh reason people like me are able to exist.
Pat Tillman was hero and nothing about his death can change that.
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Special Forces are the way to fight terrorist IMO. Pat Tillman was doing the right thing.
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Pat Tillman was a man who followed his heart. He was a true American hero.
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LOL wtf i do to get on your make believe ignore list?
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Originally posted by Furball
LOL wtf i do to get on your make believe ignore list?
you should take it as a complement....I just typed anyone's name that I could remember at the time. ;)
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Some of you guys need to get out once in a while. Here's a clue, the world is jaded, Americans aren't the pure virginal heroes of fantasy old, and finally, **** happens.
Btw, I served in the american military, and most of the guys I served with are human.
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you should take it as a complement....I just typed anyone's name that I could remember at the time.
BAh!!
No one ever remebers me...
Bastages!!!
:D
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I removed Pat Tilmans avatar becuase I was attacked for having it.
The way he died takes nothing away from the way I feel about him and the sacrifice he made for his country.
It is not so tragic to me that he died in a friendly fire incedent. Just like the canadians that were bombed by that F16. It happens. And anyone that is supprised that the military would try to lie about what happend is pretty silly.
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Originally posted by Pongo
I removed Pat Tilmans avatar becuase I was attacked for having it.
The way he died takes nothing away from the way I feel about him and the sacrifice he made for his country.
It is not so tragic to me that he died in a friendly fire incedent. Just like the canadians that were bombed by that F16. It happens. And anyone that is supprised that the military would try to lie about what happend is pretty silly.
Pongo
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Friendly fire happens, accidents happen, deaths happen. When are people going to realize that all this watermelon happens?
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Originally posted by oboe
I wonder if they will discipline those officers involved in the coverup.
So far they haven't nor have they said they plan on conducting any investigations. The only ones that have been punished have been those Rangers from the other squad manning the .50 on the Humvee. They all received administrative reprimands with the exception of the Ranger that panicked while manning the .50 cal machine gun. He was kicked out of the army.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Gscho1z
Pat Tilman is not a hero for how he died, but for what he died for.
LOL Banned again, eh? So, uh...what happened? Did you promise Skuzzy when you begged your way back after last week's banning you'd cool your jets, then turn around and stab him in the back by being the same old GSholz, Boy Amerihater?
You just don't get it, do you? Do you have any idea how many people you've offended with your name calling and constant stream of anti American rhetoric? Do you have any idea just what a poor ambassador you are for your Nation? Are you so blinded by your hatred for America, and Americans, you feel your actions are justified?
Look at you now...you'll resort to playing a game of Bop the Mole with Skuzzy because you have no pride, you have no self respect, and you lacked the honor you were entrusted with when you agreed you would "play nice."
You are a sad, pathetic little person GSholz. I genuinely feel pity for you. Mixed with contemptiousness and dislike.
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Mixed with contemptiousness and dislike
Let me help you. That's "contempt".
I find noone on the boards more contemptible that G****face... noone.
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I've always wondered if "noone" was a word. Is it?
I always thought it looked wrong and have used "no one" instead.
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i'll go with pat tillmnan being a hero but what makes him more of a hero then any other ranger or marine? Why don't you have an avatard of joe shmo from vermont who left his wife and 2 kids to go serve his country? I don't like all the publicity he is getting.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I've always wondered if "noone" was a word. Is it?
I always thought it looked wrong and have used "no one" instead.
Wot da hell? you some kinda commie or sumthin? It's every americans right.. no; OBLIGATION to continue to mangle, reconstrue and subvert the 'english' language.. it's what makes us 'not british'. Noone more suspicious than a i dottin, t crossing english major from cactus land with a landscraping business gettin huffy about 'noone'.
word; dude.
:D
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Actually Nuke, it can be either of the following: No-one, noone, even no one.
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Why don't you have an avatard of joe shmo from vermont who left his wife and 2 kids to go serve his country? I don't like all the publicity he is getting.
Well look at it like I do: they are all heroes, living and dead. Tillman is just a representative of the lot.
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Originally posted by Steve
Actually Nuke, it can be either of the following: No-one, noone, even no one.
well, sell the house biatch!
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Well they lied to you about WMD..Why are you surprised?
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Well they lied to you about WMD..Why are you surprised?
Who lied? The UN, France, Germany, Russia? Who lied?
Maybe you thought is was about oil.....no other reason, right?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Who lied? The UN, France, Germany, Russia? Who lied?
Maybe you thought is was about oil.....no other reason, right?
Whoever fed Colin Powell his "Evidence Of WMD" intel before his speech at the UN...The faceless entity...That's who lied.
And Nuke I sorta agree with you..It wasn't about oil first..It was more like Republicans elected--Time to invade somewhere.
Oil was secondary but over time it will overshadow the military industrial complex as the real reason.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Whoever fed Colin Powell his "Evidence Of WMD" before his speech at the UN...The faceless entity is who lied.
And Nuke I sorta agree with you..It wasn't about oil first..It was more like Republicans elected--Time to invade somewhere.
Oil was secondary but over time it will overshadow the military industrial complex as the real reason.
Well, from my point of view, I always wanted the US to take care of Saddam. I wanted Clinton to do the job.
If you think republicans are hellbent on war, you are wrong. Iraq and Saddam are the ONLY reason we ever went to war against Iraq....there is no other reason.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Well, from my point of view, I always wanted the US to take care of Saddam.
They did take care of him when they supplied weapons and raw materials for chemical warfare to Saddam...Remember he used to be a STRONG ally in the middle east.(Iran/Iraq war)
The cold war was over..Saddam outlived his usefullness..It was time to make him public enemy #1...And move the military invantory.
Now here's a question..Why did the Republicans sell chemical kaka to Saddam?...Huh?
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Originally posted by NUKE
If you think republicans are hellbent on war, you are wrong.
Yes they are.
And you are wrong.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Yes they are.
And you are wrong.
You think republicans are hellbent on war? Thanks for playing, you simpleton. Simpletons are very easy to recognize.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Yes they are.
And you are wrong.
No democrats have ever gone to war :lol
Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, Somalia, Bay of Pigs. Republicans are just awefull!
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Originally posted by SirLoin
It's like trying to get an intelligent response from a duffle bag.
:rolleyes:
You are a dim whitted moron, kind of like Thrawn.
You claim that Repubicans are hellbent on war, yet can't back that up. You are a moron.
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Deleted the post? :lol
You are a moron Sirloin, and I do not like you.
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Originally posted by megadud
i'll go with pat tillmnan being a hero but what makes him more of a hero then any other ranger or marine? Why don't you have an avatard of joe shmo from vermont who left his wife and 2 kids to go serve his country? I don't like all the publicity he is getting.
Uh, Megadud..the guy's dead, how about cutting him some
slack. He sure didn't ask for publicity before he died.
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Originally posted by rpm
Tillman was not a role model for the way he died, he was for what he did before his death.
I think that might call for a little enlightenment.
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Originally posted by NUKE
No democrats have ever gone to war :lol
Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, Somalia, Bay of Pigs. Republicans are just awefull!
The USA (Dems) didn't invade Vietnam,Korea,Bosnia,Somalia or Cuba.
The USA(Republicans) did with Greneda,Panama,Afghanistan(justified) and Iraq.
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Sirloin, let's review the republican thirst for war.
1. WWI. Wilsen, democrat
2. WWII Roosevelt, democrat
3. Korea, Truman, deomcrat
4. Bay of Pigs, Kennedy, democrat
5. Vietnam, Kennedy, democrat
6. Bosnia, Clinton, democrat
7. Somalia, Clinton, dempocrat.
Republicans really are hellbent on war :lol
dipchit.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
They did take care of him when they supplied weapons and raw materials for chemical warfare to Saddam...Remember he used to be a STRONG ally in the middle east.(Iran/Iraq war)
The cold war was over..Saddam outlived his usefullness..It was time to make him public enemy #1...And move the military invantory.
Now here's a question..Why did the Republicans sell chemical kaka to Saddam?...Huh?
Maybe Canaduh hadn't got the news yet, there was this
pesky Islamic revolution in Iran see. They held some US
citizens for 444 days back in 79-80. We sure could have used
your 20-10 hindsight back then to foresee Saddam's little
foilables. Guess we'll just have to muddle through without it
though.
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There is a difference between invasion and intervention.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
There is a difference between invasion and intervention.
LOL!
Democrats have a history of war, republicans do not. You are a moron.
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And a republican actually pulled us out of Vietnam.
Sirloin, are you still awake?
Moron.
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NIxon was the last great Republican President.
Tillman died a hero in Afghanistan.
I'm off to sleeeeep.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
NIxon was the last great Republican President.
Tillman died a hero in Afghanistan.
I'm off to sleeeeep.
You need the sleep, moron.
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Originally posted by NUKE
You are a dim whitted moron, kind of like Thrawn.
You claim that Repubicans are hellbent on war, yet can't back that up. You are a moron.
Nuke,
Are you capable of replying to any thread without resorting to calling people that disagree with you names? Or making other sarcastic or direct insults?
...-Gixer
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Was that a hypothetical question ?
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Originally posted by Staga
Was that a hypothetical question ?
No just a hopeful one in that I'd get a reply without insult.
...-Gixer
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Whoever fed Colin Powell his "Evidence Of WMD" intel before his speech at the UN..
The Russians, Germans, FRench, Israelis, Brits, and the UN all had the same intel and not supplied by Powell. How do you explain this? A gigantic conspiracy?
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Personal attack
You immediately attacked people. The fact that you can't see how is..... kinda funny.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Nuke,
Are you capable of replying to any thread without resorting to calling people that disagree with you names? Or making other sarcastic or direct insults?
...-Gixer
I just figure he feels the need to stick with what he is good at. And as long as he is allowed to continue this brilliant debating tactic he will.
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Do you fly kites in lightening storms a lot? :)
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Originally posted by GSchol2
Not unless it is properly grounded. ;)
:D
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Originally posted by NUKE
Pat Tillman was a hero and true patriot.
God bless all those who are serving and who have served our country. Pat Tillman joined the army out of a sense of duty for our country and there are many, many others who have joined the armed forces for the same reasons.
I find it ironic that Red Tail wants to use his death for some small minded point of his.
Is being lied to by the US Army small minded? Is my point small minded that this guy died and we were intentionally lied to? What's small minded anout that, to want the US Army to be held accountable for misleading the American public?
Where's the irony in that? Please explain...if you can
And what happened to your Tillman Avatar? :confused:
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Before the thread gets locked, can someone tell me what the deal was with the 'they burned his uniform' part is? I'm not clear on whether the US soldiers burned it afterwards to try and hide something? Or it happen during the attack? What?
If it's blindingly obvious, I apologize, but still wanna know what that sentence means.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Before the thread gets locked, can someone tell me what the deal was with the 'they burned his uniform' part is? I'm not clear on whether the US soldiers burned it afterwards to try and hide something? Or it happen during the attack? What?
If it's blindingly obvious, I apologize, but still wanna know what that sentence means.
Scroll to the first post for the whole story....here's an excerpt.
"The latest investigation, written about by The Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road. The investigation also revealed that soldiers later burned Tillman's uniform and body armor."
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Ok, I got that, but WHY? Was it because they were trying to hide something? Eg, make him look like an insurgent? Or was the explanation more prosaic?
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Nuke, Somalia was "invaded" after Clinton was elected but not yet in office.
It was GHW Bush (R) who decided to send in the American Military to distribute humanitarian aid to the Somalians who could not get food due to the Civil War raging in that country. Under Clinton however, the mission evolved into something not originally intended.
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I'm not clear on whether the US soldiers burned it afterwards to try and hide something?
They burned his uniform clearly for a cover up... By doing such the family would not see the amount of bullet holes in this man to include the size of the bullet holes (50 .cal is what i think killed him..) which family then would clearly identify as fraticide.. (clothing has only blood stain and holes... very easy to identify what happened... a body is much harder to tell without medical training)
when poster boy took the fall from his own platoon thats a huge blow.. (rangers lead the way i guess) on top of this his brother (who was armed and in the same unit, different platoons though) was not notified what really happened till much later.. go figure, he most likely would have lock and loaded considering the circumstances..(cluster**** command)
Pat got screwed plain and simple, mistakes happen but what happend after was no mistake..
If you read the whole story on this guy what grinds me is that his LT made the right call by challenging his orders but he was overruled so that someone would look good on their OER for getting them to a non existant objective with no tactical value considering the lighting conditions... instead of reporting a delay to malfunctioning equipment.. (humvee)
pathetic..
DoctorYo
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Got it, thanks!
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after the lynch fiasco this comes with little surprise.
wouldn't the burning of his uniform be considered tampering with evidence and a criminal act?
how many heads have rolled, i'm guessing they all got promotions.
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anyone else notice how nuke hasnt said one thing actually relevent to the topic?
"Tillman died a hero in Afghanistan. "
so you keep saying, when your not calling everyone else a moron, and so did everyone else whos died in the war...this isnt about tillman specifically, its about the coverup on how he died, not the specifics of the death, which unless it was something on either extreme (jumping on a grenade, or shot while helping the enemy) has no effect on heroism.
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They covered it up because orginally the sold it as the "American Hero killed in combat" story and Tillman fitted that image perfectly and was good PR for the military from the day he signed up. When he was killed they wanted to make it a heroic death. Last thing they would of wanted was for it to get out that he was killed by his own squad. And the way he was killed made them look like a bunch of ill diciplined trigger happy amatures.
Like the Lynch story or what ever her name was, complete overy hyped PR BS in a time when the military needed some good news.
Tillmans death was a tragedy but no more or less of a tragedy then any of the other 2197 coalition forces that have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan to date.
Another tradgedy must be for his family, they must be furious at the way the Army has handled it and the amount of publicity he has received.
The guy served his country bravely and came to an unfortunate end but let the poor guy lie in peace just like any of those that have fallen. It's all that he would of wanted I'm sure.
...-Gixer
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Interesting that when you Google news Lyndee England, or Abu Gharabe (sp) or Tillman you will get thousands of hits describing what is wrong with the military, but you Google news Brian Chontosh you get 2 hits.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151678 (http://)
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Originally posted by NUKE
I find it ironic that Red Tail wants to use his death for some small minded point of his.
did I lose track? I thought it was the military that wanted to use his death for some small minded point.
the way he died has nothing to do with the quality of the man or the magnitude of his sacrifice.
much as the sacrifices of all our servicemen aren't lessened by this administration wasting them on this mess in Iraq. the duty to country, the sacrifice is still there, still as great.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
BTW, what happened to all the Tillman Avatars? Did the novelty finally wear off on you guys? Where's the love, man? :confused:
Sorry, been busy. My avatar still shows Tillman and will do so for a long time to come.
He was a hero not in how he died, but how he lived.
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He was in a ranger bat. they're not obligated to tell his family how or in what country he died.
It wasn't a cover up, it's just that the preliminary info wasn't precise, not unlike the Lynch ordeal.
He died fighting terrorists in afghanistan. That much is true.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Sorry, been busy. My avatar still shows Tillman and will do so for a long time to come.
He was a hero not in how he died, but how he lived.
But why choose Tillman over the hundreds of other service men/women that have died serving their country? Is it because physically it's a good looking picture and it fits yours or the typically perceived image of a all american hero?
I'm sure he himself or his family wouldn't wan't his image used so frequently and labeled as a hero.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by NUKE
You need the sleep, moron.
Nuke,
Do you ever get tired of calling everyone idiots or morons? Wouldn't thought it's a very christian thing to do.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
But why choose Tillman over the hundreds of other service men/women that have died serving their country? Is it because physically it's a good looking picture and it fits yours or the typically perceived image of a all american hero?
I'm sure he himself or his family wouldn't wan't his image used so frequently and labeled as a hero.
...-Gixer
If you do a search, you'll see my position on why I feel Tillman being the hero. I would feel the same if he were still alive.
This has nothing to do with combat, killing or dying.
This has nothing to do with how he looks in a picture.
Perhaps you'd like to point out the hundreds of others that gave up their childhood dream of a professional career and millions of dollars, all to put their money where their mouth is and serve their country.
That's the way I saw it then, see it now, and will see it in the future. Not many of his type around.
Remember, this is coming from someone that is against these wars. This doesn't stop me from admiring him his courage, conviction, and sacrificing his career and money for what he saw as a greater cause.
Do you finally understand or do I need to make myself clearer for you?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Do you finally understand or do I need to make myself clearer for you?
No I completely understand. I just think that they guy who has a family and has left behind two children and a wife has left more behind then a professional football player and his millions.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
No I completely understand. I just think that they guy who has a family and has left behind two children and a wife has left more behind then a professional football player and his millions.
...-Gixer
Apples and oranges. Tillman as well as others didn't join the military to die (although the possibility of death exists, most that serve will survive).
Wife and kids are not a career. They will still be there when the service ends.
Tillman's NFL career as well as the millions were essentially gone with his decision to enlist. He had the mindset of surviving, I'm sure.
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Yes,,
But I just don't see it, just because the guy had millions and a NFL career that he had anything more to sacrafice or risk losing then the next guy.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Yes,,
But I just don't see it, just because the guy had millions and a NFL career that he had anything more to sacrafice or risk losing then the next guy.
...-Gixer
Okay maybe this,(humor me here as I am just guessing what you'd love to do) Suzuki hires you to be their Pro Team driver on their best Factory effort. Your contract calls for millions of dollars plus the best bike the company can offer.
One day you wake up (after realizing your life-long dream come true) that you'd rather sacrifice your lifelong career dream of being a factory sponsored driver and serve your country instead. Doing so effectively guarantees that you'll never ride motorcycles again and that you'll not have the riches to retire on.
I'd say that would be a heroic sacrifice on your part. It has nothing to do with whether you died or not.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I'd say that would be a heroic sacrifice on your part. It has nothing to do with whether you died or not.
Heoric sacrafice because as a pro sportsman you have a lifestyle that others are envious of? Whether a person is a street cleaner or a million dollar sportsman they are both making the same level of sacrafice, it's relative at a personal level to that person. They are both putting their lives on the line and whether they are worth ten dollars or ten million it's irelevant to the cost of a human life.
In your opinion you see Tillman as sacraficing more then the next guy just because he has a sports career and money which is incorrect. And more a point of your envy that he had that rather then anything to do with personal heroic sacrafice.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by NUKE
Sirloin, let's review the republican thirst for war.
1. WWI. Wilsen, democrat
2. WWII Roosevelt, democrat
3. Korea, Truman, deomcrat
4. Bay of Pigs, Kennedy, democrat
5. Vietnam, Kennedy, democrat
6. Bosnia, Clinton, democrat
7. Somalia, Clinton, dempocrat.
Republicans really are hellbent on war :lol
dipchit.
here's a comprehensive list of US military actions you can knock yourselves out researching and debating who was responsible for US military involvement - remember, only congress can declare war and has done so only on 5 occasions, 1812 War of, 1846 - Mexican War, 1898 Spanish-American War, 1917 WW1, 1941 WW2:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H29C2592B for list of military actions
http://clerk.house.gov/histHigh/Congressional_History/partyDiv.html historical composition of the House of Representatives
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/one_item_and_teasers/partydiv.htm historical composition of the US Senate
you can google your own damn president's list.
have fun. there will be a test. :aok
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Originally posted by Gixer
Heoric sacrafice because as a pro sportsman you have a lifestyle that others are envious of? Whether a person is a street cleaner or a million dollar sportsman they are both making the same level of sacrafice, it's relative at a personal level to that person. They are both putting their lives on the line and whether they are worth ten dollars or ten million it's irelevant to the cost of a human life.
In your opinion you see Tillman as sacraficing more then the next guy just because he has a sports career and money which is incorrect. And more a point of your envy that he had that rather then anything to do with personal heroic sacrafice.
...-Gixer
It is obviously clear that you still don't get my position. Here we go again .
He sacrificed far more than the avg enlistee when he volunteered.
I would concider his sacrifice of his childhood dream of a career just as heroic had he volunteered for the fire dept, police dept, becoming a teacher, doctor, etc.
The street sweeper doesn't grow up wanting that as a career and is not near the level of the same type of sacrifice that Tillman did by giving up for good his NFL career.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with his dying as those who volunteer have every intention of surviving their military service.
I've held this belief since the beginning.
His sacrifice of what was his dream of a career given up to enlist was heroic.
I don't know of others who've made the same move. Do you? Would you do the same? Anyone else here on this BBS do the same?
It's a rare thing he did.
BTW, I don't envy his wealth and/or his NFL career anymore than you do.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
He sacrificed far more than the avg enlistee when he volunteered.
That`s just plain old country BS.
He sacrificed no more nor less than anyone else who ever enlisted.
The street sweeper doesn't grow up wanting that as a career and is not near the level of the same type of sacrifice that Tillman did by giving up for good his NFL career.
That`s a big assumption. There are still people out there , as strange as it seems, that have dreams for their life of doing and honest days work for an honest dollar and living their lives without the limelight or the overglamorized, overrated fame. Just honest, every day folks that make the world tick and actualy do something that contributes to everyone.
If the street sweeper enlists, he gives up his life and livelyhood to serve his country. It means just as much to him as an NFL career. It is his life. Same goes for anyone who enlists to serve, no matter who they may be nor what they do for a living.
The street sweeper, which is not a bad thing, is working in an honest, non pampereed, down to earth career to support himself and family. It is his livelyhood. Honest work for an honest wage. Can`t say that for the NFL.
His sacrifice of what was his dream of a career given up to enlist was heroic.
True that, just like the thousands before him that risked their lives and some of which lost them in the process to serve in something they believed to be a worthy cause. It doesn`t matter whothey are, or what they did for a living or a career. The exact same sacrifice is given by all. It has absolutely nothing, zilch, nada to do with the NF friggen L.
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Jackal,
Thanks for understanding the point I was trying to make. Thought it strange to be out on my own on that one.
...-Gixer
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What sacrifices are given up in order to enlist in the military?
I find it an honorable profession that one can take great personal pride in. I'd bet many who've served didn't consider it a sacrifice to enlist, as a matter of fact there are many benefits in joining the military.
Tillman sacrificed more in his decision to enlist over the avg enlistee.
Many that get to the level of playing for a professional sports team and get paid millions for doing so have reached a rare level in that sport.
The person that makes it to that level usually didn't just decide on that as a career, but was from an early childhood desire and continued hard work/training to reach that level. If they're lucky, they can get maybe ten years of playing at that top level before having to give it up.
Tillman gave all that up, his life-long dream for enlisting and serving in the military. Had he survived his military career, he'd forever given up his childhood dream of playing in the NFL with all its fame, glory, and riches (FWIW, I'm not big into the pro sports thing, just recognizing his giving up what he loved). With his contract, he could have retired early and do what ever he wished.
Now you want to say the street sweeper (or ________ <--fill in your own job choice here) sacrifices the same in his decision to enlist? The military is not a prison sentence as it is a career of honor and pride. There are many benefits in joining the military.
The street sweeper doesn't grow up wanting to be one. He doesn't have to train and put in long hours to become a "premiere" professional street sweeper. After he retires from the military, he can go right back on being the street sweeper if he so chooses.
This isn't even a close one. Remove the labels, the two aren't even close.
What Tillman did was a very rare and uncommon thing.
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Like I said...plain ole country BS.
His "sacrifice" was no less nor greater than anyone else who serves.
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Now you want to say the street sweeper (or ________ <--fill in your own job choice here) sacrifices the same in his decision to enlist?
I will use father to fill in that spot and yes they give up much more than any athlete no matter how much they make.
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Self moderating
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Bingo.
Expect this post to disappear too.
LOL You poor poor mistreated baby. If you hurry you can post three anti American rants and call five posters names before Skuzzy bops the mole once more. :D