Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bustr on May 23, 2005, 06:53:41 PM
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The Norwegian Inquisition - Sunset in the Land of the Midnight Sun
Stortinget, the Norwegian parliament, in April 2005 passed a new Discrimination Act. The act says in pretty clear words that in cases of suspected direct or indirect discrimination due to religion or ethnicity, Norwegians are guilty until proven otherwise. To me, it is surprising that they are allowed to pass such legislation at all. Isn't it a fundamental part of all international law that a person should be innocent until proven otherwise? Aren't our politicians thus depriving Norwegians of even the most basic human rights? However, I have heard claims that it is technically legal to do this. The act was passed in April with the approval of all parties in parliament, more than 80 % of MPs, with the sole exception of the right-wing Progress Party. Immigration spokesman for the Progress Party, Per Sandberg, is deeply disappointed and fears the consequences of the new legislation. "This law will jeopardize the rights of ordinary, law-abiding Norwegian citizens. The principle of reverse burden of proof means that Norwegians are guilty of discrimination unless they can prove otherwise. It will lead to many convictions of innocent people. Reverse burden of proof is also combined with liability to pay compensation, which means that innocent persons risk having to pay huge sums for things they didn't do."
Rest of text: http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/05/norwegian-inquisition-sunset-in-land.html
"Guilty untill proven innocent"??????????
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Norway sounds like a terrible place, full of evil war criminals and laws depriving her citizens of civil rights and they dont even have an evil dictator like bush or even a 911 as an excuse. I guess it's jhust the way they are.
I think it's liberation time!
:D
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LOL!!
I mean, oh; darn.
Ok, now that the knee-jerk reaction is dealt with; I seem to recall that some years back in Norway there was an 'anti-gypsy' movement (for want of the correct name) where folks who didn't conform to the nordic ideal were subject to summary institutionalization, lobotomys and castration.. or any combination of the foregoing. All of this was outlawed by the 1980's, and restitution proceedings for the survivors have been working their way thru the courts.
Is it possible this is just the pendjulum swinging a bit too far in the other direction?
I need some help here.. the story seems kinda slanted (most of the info on the internet these days seems to be slanted to enhance some nut case or others agenda) and once the hype is carved off, the bones don't seem to make up much of a skeleton.
Any help Nils; Airguard?? What's this bloggers beef?
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WTF is going on up there?
All I can say is Chief Nuk Nuk, the Grand Poobah of Norway, is every bit as ruthless as Sadaam Hussien was when you compare the treatment thier subjects recieved- the Kurds vs the Gypsies- and, now that the sun is rising on thier Evil Ice Kingdom after six months of darkness, I fervently hope we put Norway in thier proper place of terrist Nations- which is between N. Korea and France.
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Whaaaaa... France is on the bottom[/i] of the list?
Was there a memo or something while I was out?
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Ok, now that the knee-jerk reaction is dealt with; I seem to recall that some years back in Norway there was an 'anti-gypsy' movement (for want of the correct name)
Provide a link, couldn't google anything about that.
The law is nothing but political correctness taken to extreme.
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Ethnic Cleansing in Scandinavia (http://www.magasinet-monitor.net/english/4apr01.htm)
Norway Compensates Lobotomy Victims (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7059/708/a)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Ethnic Cleansing in Scandinavia (http://www.magasinet-monitor.net/english/4apr01.htm)
Norway Compensates Lobotomy Victims (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7059/708/a)
From your link:
Norway, and the rest of Scandinavia, were not the only places where racist ideas were transformed into practical politics. From 1911 to 1930 similar laws were passed in 33 states in the USA. From 1911 to 1950, 60,000 people were sterilised on eugenic grounds in the USA.
What were you saying again?
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Yup. Outlawed 1950 but ended as an 'eugenics' crutch in the 30's.. not a pleasant piece of american history.
Norway on the other hand was a mite more enthusiastic.. the program really got going AFTER the war; topping out in the 1960's and 70's. Law didn't come off the books till 1988.
Care to explain a happy lil Norweigan Concentration Camp called Svanviken, finally closed down in 1986?
Now, clue here.. this ain't a Norway mudraking tour.. it's a rational set of questions regarding some difficult to comprehend social issues in Scandinavia. If ya wanna muck rake, I'll keep meetin yah head on.. if ah wanna enlightin us, please do.
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Care to explain lil concentration camp in Guantanamo? That's leading nowhere.
What the gypsy propaganda site presented was probably a recuperation center for substance abusers:
http://home.online.no/~knutso/gospel04.html
18 years in darkness
Heidi and Vidar Larsen, in their early thirties, were one of the first married couples who came to the new centre for families called "Svanviken" in the district of Eide. They share with us below, how they have used some of the ½best+ years of their lives.
We lived as alcoholics for 18 years of our lives. As we look back now, in a sober condition, we realise it was like a hell on earth.
Red spirit, window screen liquid, beer and spirits, were our daily meals, often instead of food. We lost our flat very early on and had to give up the right to the responsibility as parents for our children. Life in prison was not unknown to us and we experienced many periods in the drunk cell and in hospital.
We received money from the Social Welfare Office, but this didn't last us long, and the next thing was housebreaking and violence. It became so bad in the end that our district no longer wanted to have anything to do with us, and the police chased after us.
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Yup; nowhere. Again, this ain't a muckraking ride.. cool yer jets, Siaf. I'd rather this thread didn't get locked.
Anybody else wanna take a stab at the original question?
Just what in heck is up with the whacky sounding 'descrimination act' the blogger on the first post in this thread is wailing about?
..and 'political correctness' doesn't sound like Norway's style.
Thanks for a reasoned reply!
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Bustr... what you are reading is a blog so take it for what it is.
Hangtime... last time around you linked to svik.org, and now monitor? ;)
Your post about Sandviken is abit more interesting tho. It is far from a consentration camp, but it was pretty bad. The purpose of the place was to put people there that broke a law we had that said that it was illegal to wander the streets without a job, money or a place to live. This affected the Romani people pretty hard. They were often criminals but far from always and this is perhaps not something we should be proud of.
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Nils, please accept my apologies for the arsehats on a Norway bashing binge. I am truly disgusted and embarrased. :(
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Thanks buddy.. I'ts been hard to sort thru the BS; seems all web info has a 'slant'. Made no sense to me at first.. and it's why gettin' the straight scoop from 'sources on the ground' beats the hell outta readin the papers or watching telemetry from KH11's.
Maybe the pentagon should give it a try.
;)
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Originally posted by bustr
"Guilty untill proven innocent"??????????
There are a few countries which base their legal system on that concept
Tronsky
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Accepted rpm, but there really is no need. :)
Most of the things posted has been a shot in the dark and the few things that has really been true deserves to be pointed out and has been hot topics over here too in the past.
Our side of the pond has made some accusations your way too over the last couple of years so it is expected that some bounced back.
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Eurotards!!!!!!!
(http://webpages.charter.net/micah/moron.jpg)
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It's quite logical:
If a person has no job, money or a place to live what does he do? Commit crime to bring food to the table.
I haven't seen yet a Romani at work. Have anyone else?
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Well... I have seen one. He has made aibt of money selling his memoars. I recall that he was pretty pissed about beeing forced to go to school.
These days tho I think a lot more of them have regular jobs because some of the younger once has married outside of their people and settled down.
You can still see them in the summer when they ride in convoys with their mercedes cars and large caravans. They dont send their kids to school and they dont work but none of them are skinny. Where they get their money is something i would rather not speculat in because it will prolly cause a riot in here ;)
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Originally posted by -tronski-
There are a few countries which base their legal system on that concept
Tronsky
Some banana republics have been keeping detainees in prison for several years without court hearing or possibility to defend themself in any other way.
wtg Hang!
:aok
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Give it up, Siaf.. the Gypsies are pretty much done as people.. the fate that race suffered was what was planned for the jews.
We all have our skeletons; many; many things we all wish wern't done in the names of our gods our countrys. Trick is to learn what happened, how it happened, what stopped it and why..
It's still going on.. Africa under the 'ethnic cleansing' torch now. Yugoslavia, Cambodia.. the list is long; as you wind back the clock just about every nation on the planet has had this horror.
Read. Ask Questions. Learn. Change.
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Siaf;
I've seen a romani at work and he does wonders with broken down cars. He's also one of most helpful and funny guys I've ever met.
He has also been helping us building and maintaining our club and actually we're keeping him a surprise parties next weekend. He doesn't drink any alcohol so next best thing we could figure out was a stripper :D
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He doesnt drink?
and he lives in Finland?
and close to you??..
AND HE DOESNT DRINK??? :eek:
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Originally posted by Staga
Some banana republics have been keeping detainees in prison for several years without court hearing or possibility to defend themself in any other way.
wtg Hang!
:aok
Wasn't me! But, since you 'asked' Guantanamo is evil, and necessary. The bad guys are playin fer keeps, and it ain't the fish and game service standing guard. We ain't gonna keep our kids alive over there by going with a 'catch and release' program for suspected terrorists captured bearing arms against 'em.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's quite logical:
If a person has no job, money or a place to live what does he do? Commit crime to bring food to the table.
I haven't seen yet a Romani at work. Have anyone else?
Depend what you call work there is one for you during and after worktime:
(http://www.voila-la-france.de/Allg/mendiant.JPG)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
We ain't gonna keep our kids alive over there by going with a 'catch and release' program for suspected terrorists captured bearing arms against 'em.
Too bad this doesn't help them either, because this way you're only helping the terrorists to recruit more terrorists to kill your kids.
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I disagree. They figure we're weak as it is.. soft; easily cowed. I wonder how much more they'll love us when we just 'tag 'em and send 'em home'.
It's the real world, Fishu; like I said they're playin fer keeps. They're cuttin off heads, takin hostages. Murdering prisoners, disfiguring them, dragging them in the streets. We're supposed to play 'geneva convention' rules when they never did? Western values force us to play their game with one hand tied behind us as is.. Guantanamo is necessary.
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Originally posted by straffo
Depend what you call work there is one for you during and after worktime:
(http://www.voila-la-france.de/Allg/mendiant.JPG)
We've got a huge population of homeless... and some of them are just cons masquerading as homeless. It's one of the nasty kickbacks of capitalism. Last time I checked, we didn't have 'em on the endangered species list.
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I guess guantanamo serves a purpose. Its their methods and the fact that they put people there without actually charging them with a crime.
You must agree Hangtime that atleast some of them are innocent of the crimes.... they are not charged with!? ehh..
If the good guys starts to bend the rules even just a little bit at first and then maybe more than you are getting dangerously close to creating a state you really dont want. How do you separate the good guys from the bad guys if you dont clarly stick to your side of the dotted line? (and in a high profiled place like guantanamo has become its even more important)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
We've got a huge population of homeless... and some of them are just cons masquerading as homeless. It's one of the nasty kickbacks of capitalism. Last time I checked, we didn't have 'em on the endangered species list.
What is funny to see on the Champs-Elysée is the boss dropping the "working" rom at 7:00 with his E-class.
When I was working in Paris in the same subway station there was a young rom mother with her kid ,I used to give her some money from time to time.
One day I had to move a lot using the subway and I passed near her spot about 5 time at different hours and noticed she was helped by 3 others womens ! only the baby was the same.
Poor kid :(
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Western values force us to play their game with one hand tied behind us as is.. Guantanamo is necessary.
Indeed... when the news article of Koran being flushed down the toilet at Guantanamo got publicity, it caused alot of aggressive unrest in Afganistan.
Nobody knows whether it was true or not, even though the news agency pulled back the news. Better yet; nobody in the middle east will question the bad news, making the bad news even worse.
Now they're going to raise up the issue of US soldiers torturing prisoners in Afganistan - including two cases where a prisoner has been tortured to death.
These questionable prisons do not fit more than a handful of people and as if it isn't already serious to detain people without charges or ability to meet with a lawyer, these people are being tortured.
Every time when such case becomes public, it could create as many new terrorists as the US has detained "suspected" terrorists.
Is this really beneficial for the cause?
Is this the freedom you've been advertising all over the middle east?
Democracy? Human rights? Fair juridical system for everyone?
Also keep in mind that the middle east isn't the most educated areas in the world or with the best news broadcasting coverage, which will make it alot easier for the terrorists to turn them into anti-americans with little effort.
Guantanamo kind of places might get a handful of people in front of the law.. or should we say justice as we know it, because they aren't covered by any laws, not even by human rights, even though they're kept there by the americans.
However meanwhile the handful of people are used as an example of the american evil doers.
There are more delicate means to bring these people in front of the justice, which wouldn't have even nearly as much counter productive effects.
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Fish, if the goal is to find something negative to exploit, it will be done, regardless of the truth. They hate us, they will find something to feed that hate.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Fish, if the goal is to find something negative to exploit, it will be done, regardless of the truth. They hate us, they will find something to feed that hate.
While there's a lot of truth in that, Skuzzy; the obvious anachronism that Guantanamo represents also fuels dissident opinon amongst Western doubters.
I've no doubt that the people captive i Guantanamo are an important resource.
None the less; it's not; not will it ever be acceptable for a regime that prides it's self on leading "freedom" to "dissapear" people.
It should be done better.
And that's the point that Hangtime's making; I suspect. No regime has totaly clean hands; but that doesn't mean we stop washing :)
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
It's quite logical:
If a person has no job, money or a place to live what does he do? Commit crime to bring food to the table.
I haven't seen yet a Romani at work. Have anyone else?
And I hear it from a person who critisized Soviet "labour law"!
For those who don't know: in USSR it was illegal not to have a job, you could go to jail for "parasitism". That's why we didn't have bums and beggars. I mean - there were no bums and beggars in the streets at all.
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Originally posted by Boroda
For those who don't know: in USSR it was illegal not to have a job, you could go to jail for "parasitism".
I assume you actually mean a labor camp with less than ideal working conditions, to do the job that nobody else would.
It'd be awful waste of resources to throw a "parasite" into jail and do nothing.
The russian communism had many ways to turn things to something useful...
However I still wouldn't want to live under communism, as I would view some of the useful utilization in a rather bad way.
When it comes to their country, the communist always sees the good side in things, never the bad. scary.
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focus please.. you guys are way off-topic
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Originally posted by Fishu
I assume you actually mean a labor camp with less than ideal working conditions, to do the job that nobody else would.
It'd be awful waste of resources to throw a "parasite" into jail and do nothing.
Well, many "creative" people had to find jobs as yard-keepers or stokers in order to escape accusation in "parasitism"...
I know very few real accusations in "parasitism" that ended in sentence to prison/labour camp. Yes, people in labour camps really worked at some "unpopular" jobs, and, the funniest part, usually got comsiderable sums of money after they were released...
Usually "parasitism" problem was solved by local authority, people were advised to get a job. With almost any job you could get an accomodation in a "hostel" - a right to have a place to live was one of the basic guaranteed rights too. Some jobs were popular only because they promised a personal flat in several years, or even immediately like on Zelenograd electronic factories in the 60s.
Anyway, there was nothing very "cruel" or "inhuman" in this practice, nothing tragic. Even compulsory treatment of alcoholics was a nessesary measure, at least as I see it now.
Interesting, but Gypsy lifestyle was not seriously influenced by Soviet power. In railway stations Gypsy women were telling fortunes robbing naive people just as they did for hundreeds of years. Now they still do it, but main Gypsy business is selling illegal drugs...
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Originally posted by Fishu
The russian communism had many ways to turn things to something useful...
However I still wouldn't want to live under communism, as I would view some of the useful utilization in a rather bad way.
When it comes to their country, the communist always sees the good side in things, never the bad. scary.
I bet you'll never notice any differernce between current state of affairs in EU and "communism" :D
Some things were ugly, some things were practical, some things were good. Again - it was different, but people are people everywhere and it wasn't a "horrible life under evil opressing regime", it was normal life with some values shifted (relative to "free world").
Anyway, why should I focus on bad sides of Soviet socialism when you already know everything muuuch better then me? :rofl
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Originally posted by Nilsen
He doesnt drink?
and he lives in Finland?
and close to you??..
AND HE DOESNT DRINK??? :eek:
Are you having a web connection in your whaler? Shouldn't you be clubbing baby seals or pillaging and raping British isles? :p
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lol staga:D
I have a gang of illegal workers doing that for me.. im just sitting on the pier with a pina colada watching them run.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I guess guantanamo serves a purpose. Its their methods and the fact that they put people there without actually charging them with a crime.
You must agree Hangtime that atleast some of them are innocent of the crimes.... they are not charged with!? ehh..
If the good guys starts to bend the rules even just a little bit at first and then maybe more than you are getting dangerously close to creating a state you really dont want. How do you separate the good guys from the bad guys if you dont clarly stick to your side of the dotted line? (and in a high profiled place like guantanamo has become its even more important)
Nils, I dunno... I just don't know. "Innocent" doesn't sound like an appropriate label for a Guantanamo inmate, to be sure.
Unfortunately, every nation at war has had a 'Guantanamo'... the nature of war makes it necessary. From the comfortable perspective of un-involved spectator it's inhuman, evil. From the perspective of the kids on the line it's a reason to take a prisoner rather than make a martyr. If the troops get a sense of 'catch and release' they WILL NOT take any more prisoners.
Guantanamo is necessary. If there's a rational alternative that permits the removal of live enemy hostiles, suspected partisans and logistial support personel from the battle area, I'd love to hear it.
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Well..
There is something "iffy" about the photos comming out of that place, and they are neither criminals nor POW's am i right?
and.. those the have been released from there have been so because they are innocent right (nor proven guilty) or else they would not have been set free.
But yes... there is a need for POW camps and prisons for suspected criminals.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yup. Outlawed 1950 but ended as an 'eugenics' crutch in the 30's.. not a pleasant piece of american history.
Norway on the other hand was a mite more enthusiastic.. the program really got going AFTER the war; topping out in the 1960's and 70's. Law didn't come off the books till 1988.
Care to explain a happy lil Norweigan Concentration Camp called Svanviken, finally closed down in 1986?
Now, clue here.. this ain't a Norway mudraking tour.. it's a rational set of questions regarding some difficult to comprehend social issues in Scandinavia. If ya wanna muck rake, I'll keep meetin yah head on.. if ah wanna enlightin us, please do.
Well I think I am pretty aware of what is happening in my own country and this one: "Norweigan Concentration Camp called Svanviken, finally closed down in 1986?" is a none existing place ?
Where did you get that info ? I need to know because I never heard about it before and for sure if its real i do want to know.
(I hope you didnt read the nazi ramp website and used that as a ref.)
I really dont get why youre bashing us this hard, and if you do please do it right.
Why in earth did I ever considered to get back to this forum, its a child playground for some .
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Well..
There is something "iffy" about the photos comming out of that place, and they are neither criminals nor POW's am i right?
and.. those the have been released from there have been so because they are innocent right (nor proven guilty) or else they would not have been set free.[/i]
But yes... there is a need for POW camps and prisons for suspected criminals.
Not quite what would be expected of an inhuman murdering buncha yankee imperialist invaders bent on the destruction of Islam.
;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Not quite what would be expected of an inhuman murdering buncha yankee imperialist invaders bent on the destruction of Islam.
;)
hey, i never accused you of beeing yankees :D
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Originally posted by airguard
Well I think I am pretty aware of what is happening in my own country and this one: "Norweigan Concentration Camp called Svanviken, finally closed down in 1986?" is a none existing place ?
Where did you get that info ? I need to know because I never heard about it before and for sure if its real i do want to know.
(I hope you didnt read the nazi ramp website and used that as a ref.)
I really dont get why youre bashing us this hard, and if you do please do it right.
Why in earth did I ever considered to get back to this forum, its a child playground for some .
Read a bit more.. Nils addressed Svanviken. A google search on the name of that camp yanks up plenty of hits.. all in Norwegian. Yer saying it didn't exist?
My apologies for the annoyance... what generated the commentary was muckraking against americans initiated by a citizen of your country in several other threads; I merely tossed some dookie back over the fence. Tit fer tat crap. This thread got rollin from another source, yet the question it raised piqued my interest. Sorry it happened, was not my proudest moment, Airguard. My apologies for any personal offence taken.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
hey, i never accused you of beeing yankees :D
LOL.. true. I stand corrected. ;)
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topic getting boring..
lets move on to other and happier things.