Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on November 28, 2000, 10:06:00 AM
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By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The uncounted ballots in Florida which
have played a key role in Democratic
challenges are just a drop in the bucket of
ballots dismissed nationwide because of voter
error, say political observers.
An estimated 180,000
votes were dismissed in
Florida out of 6.1
million votes cast
because of improper
voting procedures.
However, more than 2
million ballots were
tossed out in all 50 states
and also will not be
counted, said Curtis Gans,
director of the Committee
for the Study of the
American Electorate.
Mr. Gans estimates that between 1 percent
and 1.8 percent of votes cast or 2.1 million
to 2.8 million ballots were eliminated
nationally.
"These are people who by one form or
another did not accurately do their ballot, and
it was thereby thrown out for one reason or
another," Mr. Gans said.
Vice President Al Gore is contesting the
election in Florida based on "incomplete and
inaccurate" vote tallies. The official count
announced Sunday night gave Republican
George W. Bush a 537-vote victory in Florida
and the state's 25 electoral votes.
"If we ignore the votes that have been cast,
then where does that lead?" Mr. Gore asked
rhetorically in a telephone call yesterday to
congressional Democrats. "The integrity of our
democracy depends upon the consent of the
governed, freely expressed in an election
where every vote is counted."
"What is at issue here is nothing less than
every American's simple, sacred right to
vote," said Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman, Mr.
Gore's running mate.
"How can we teach our children that every
vote counts if we are not willing to make a
good-faith effort to count every vote?" the
Connecticut Democrat asked Sunday after
Florida's secretary of state certified election
returns.
The every-vote-must-count mantra makes
sense on paper, but election experts say it is
not feasible to count every vote cast, and in
this case is "sheer hypocrisy," said Rep. John
Shadegg, Arizona Republican and an election
lawyer.
"Clearly, they do not believe that every
vote should count. These thoughts are
impeached by their attempts to get military
overseas ballots thrown out, and also
impeached by the fact they did not ask for a
manual recount in any of the remaining Florida
counties which also used punch-card ballots,"
Mr. Shadegg said.
"Realistically, the answer is no, you cannot
count every vote," said Doug Lewis, director
of the Election Center, an international service
association of election and voter registration
officials.
Sometimes, voters fail through their own
error to turn a ballot into a vote.
"Obviously, if the voter votes in a manner
where it is impossible to determine their intent
or that they voted for too many people, then
you have no choice but to remove that vote
from the count," Mr. Lewis said.
Sen. Larry E. Craig, Idaho Republican, said
it is a known factor that a certain percentage of
votes is discarded during machine counts. Mr.
Craig said every effort is made to create
uniformity and fairness in counting votes, but it
does not mean every vote can be counted.
"While that is frustrating to some, it has
never been that way," Mr. Craig said.
Mr. Craig said the quick reaction by Mr.
Gore's campaign to ask for recounts indicates
they were prepared in advance of Election
Day to ask for hand counts in heavily
Democratic counties to swing a close vote.
"This was a well thought-out and planned
strategy in advance. When Al Gore said he
would do anything and everything to win this
election, we must take him at his word," Mr.
Craig said.
Contacted by The Washington Times,
several secretary of state offices said they do
not keep numbers on how many ballots are
thrown out after an election, but "rejected
ballots are a normal occurrence," said a
spokeswoman in the Alabama secretary of
state's office.
Secretaries of state across the country have
formed a committee to study election-reform
issues raised in this election, said Leslie
Reynolds, spokeswoman for the National
Association of Secretaries of State.
"We've been looking at these issues for a
long time. Now, everyone is interested," Miss
Reynolds said.
Every vote would count "if we get rid of
the rickety machines," said Al Felzenberg,
visiting fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
"Voting should not be a mysterious or
burdensome process," Mr. Felzenberg said.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-28-2000).]
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What would be the point in recounting every vote in the entire US? The reason it's happening in Florida is because there is a margin smaller than what you'd see in some school board election in Waco Texas. In the states where a recount *could* make a difference, like New Mexico for example, a recount *was* done. That's why there are manditory recount laws. So I'm not sure what this person's point is.
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The point, I believe, is: Gore protrayed in his speech last night that "Every vote should be counted"...but he failed to add "In these predomint Democratic Counties"...for diplomatic reasons, he should have stated that every vote in the state of FLA should be re-counted, but he does not want the 10,000 ballots thrown out in Duvall county counted since its predominently republican.
If every vote in FlA was recounted, Bush would win by 5000.
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Oh - didn't he already offer to have every county in Florida recounted?
If every vote was counted, Gore would win by about 18,000. I'll split the difference with ya though Rip. He'd win by 13,000 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Nash:
What would be the point in recounting every vote in the entire US?
Well, by not going for "every" vote it shows how big of a hipocrate he and everybody that supports him is. That man would rather climb a tree and lie than stand on level ground and tell the truth, and you know it
HE'S A LIEING HIPOCRATE AND SO ARE 90% OF OTHER DEMOCRATS IN OUR GOVERNEMENT!!!!!!!!!!
dick gephardt and tom dashald (s?) are #3 and #4 just after BC #1 and Gore #2 The 4 biggest liars in our nation. I truely feel sorry for you if you believe their lies...
udie
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Let me see if I've got this straight.
Dick gephardt is # 3, behind Dashald and Clinton who are #2 and.... no wait. Gore is #2, ahead of Clinton 's #1 to Dahsald and Gephardt's #3 and #4 respectiveley. Doh! I mean Dahshald is #3, ahead of Barbera Boxer's #4 who trails Clinton's #2, behind #1's Al Sharpton.
Damn this is confusing!
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I'd like to know where you get your numbers from Nash?
Just because the Demos say there were 19,000 Demo votes not counted doesn't mean it is true.
Of those how many of those can you verify were for Bore?
If those votes were legal they would have been counted.
If there was a fair way to re-re-re-count these ballots I would say go for it but there is no way to do it so we should move on.
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Hey - if Rip can pull numbers out of thin air, so can I (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Btw - with regard to the "re-re-recount"... I think that's mistaken. In Miami (for example) - a toejam-load of ballots were porked... They got fed into a machine, the machine then spit them out without registering a thing. Then in the automatic recount, these same ballots were fed back into a machine and (suprise!) they got spit out again without being registered. Then a hand-count was started (as per Florida law), and the fine folks there got about 20% through (157 net gain by Gore) and decided they'd rather be playing bridge instead...so they went home. These things haven't been counted *once*, let alone recounted or re-recounted.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 11-28-2000).]
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Wait...
Democrats lie?
Republicans lie?
Man, I wish I had known this stuff before the election!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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As I recall from news radio (Monday),I heard a father speak concerning his son who was from Taiwan. I think he was his adopted son but the son was not a citizen of the US and the son was sent a primary and general election ballot due to him getting a driver's license. Its illegal if they vote but the vote can be nullified. Father has an affidavit(sp) and the son did not vote.
So........
Phile Fortunato is down 150 votes in his
race and within the 1% so a recount is automatic if he asks for it. He has heard about the above where non- US citizens are voting. He's asking for a recount.He is also asking for a manual recount and verification of voters being registered as a US citizen or not. Phil will pay for the manual recount himself as he has offered. Cost and time will be alot but US future is in the balance. I think the Republican party will support it.
So -- I believe there would be no further
Election 2000 if fraudalent practices to
assist Gore were not done across the US and the 4-5 states that were real close.Florida would not be an issue.
If you say "we can't blame them and there is no proof", well, someone sent those ballots out and they have a party associated with them. It won't matter, its in the numbers.
You see the democrats in action now so
they would do anything. They don't care.
e.g. Going to homeless shelters, going
to the prisons as mentioned nationally
because the Florida Democrat thought
that was such a great democratic technique.
Brokaw quieted down his democratic buddy the best he could but the guy was bragging about the great idea. I saw it but no one has mentioned it since. Republicans would have been demonized. I think most who are not registered also are naive and vote according to the news media so they vote democrat.
Big D for Duh.. Bias is evident there and the media dogs should be blamed and blamed again. This democratic state of Washinton probably won't do it and quiet the exposure. It shouldn't. Like Canada's election.They know who won before they go vote.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 11-28-2000).]
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Nash-
You are selectively applying law to suit your needs.
Stating it is Florida law to recount may or not be true, it is subject to interpretation. But you assume then they must supercede Florida law that gives a deadline, and another Florida law that allows the local canvassing boards discretion in deciding when a recount is necessary. That is pretty selective on your part.
You talk a pretty good story, hitting all the democratic talking points quite well.
The democratic canvassing boards decided on their own in Miami/Dade not to proceed not once, but twice. They didn't feel the sample they took warranted a recount, and it is within their legal discretion to make that call. PBC decided on a standard that was reasonable to count dimpled ballots, as was their legal discretion. In both cases the DNC tried to override them.
Now Bois is forced to take this case back to the FSC to get them to basically reverse a decision they made last week, that is, that local canvassing boards have the right to decide for themselves whether or not to count, count dimples, and what standards to set. I seriously doubt they want to see him again, as he made them look like a bunch of tulips for blindly accepting his Illinois dimple ballot precedent without verifying the case themselves. They came out of that decision looking exactly like the partisans they are.
Go ahead, cite the 157 Miami/Dade votes that were already counted. To be fair, also mention the highly-Cuban precincts that were skipped, and the fact that the canvassing board intentionally got the 97 highest democratic precincts first, then decided time would run out, then decided to look at the undervotes- sure looks like an attempt to suppress votes to me. That "riot" you heard about was a mix of republicans and media that knew the Miami/Dade canvassing board was trying to pull a fast one. It was illegal for them to attempt to count those votes without observers, which is exactly what they tried to do.
Gore does not want every vote, and needs to drop that talking point. It doesn't sell, and makes him even more unbelievable than he already is- no small feat.
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Originally posted by Nash:
Let me see if I've got this straight.
Dick gephardt is # 3, behind Dashald and Clinton who are #2 and.... no wait. Gore is #2, ahead of Clinton 's #1 to Dahsald and Gephardt's #3 and #4 respectiveley. Doh! I mean Dahshald is #3, ahead of Barbera Boxer's #4 who trails Clinton's #2, behind #1's Al Sharpton.
Damn this is confusing!
Sounds like a typical democratic/Goron response, trying to cloud the issue. Specially when what Udie wrote was easy enough to understand.
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The point is, Mr. Gore says 'every vote must count'.
However, his hypocritical actions show that 'every vote must count' is all a bunch of words that he does not believe. 'Every vote counts' only applies to Florida. Accross the U.S., millions of votes have been tossed out and not counted for similar reasons that they were tossed in Florida. Mr. Gore does not care about the rights of those Americans elsewhere (who have been disenfranchised by votes not counted) because Florida is what will win the election.
Mr. Gore's idea of selective importance only when it matters to himself is pretty sad IMHO and a slap in the face to anyone with who can see through his big talk.
You know he won't stop until he wins. He's already stated that the court will decide who the president is, and not the certified election results.
Fury
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Rip:
I believe there would be no further Election 2000 if fraudalent practices to assist Gore were not done across the US and the 4-5 states that were real close
- Rip
Erhm, you say that because some kid in Taiwan got sent a ballot (on which he could either have voted for Gore OR Bush) that there were fraudulent practices to assist Gore across the US"? Is that your case?
Oh wait. You say that we can't prove who sent that ballot out in the first place. Good point. We can't. What's your case again?
What we DO know, however, is that for 10 days, three Republicans were camped out in some office filling in missing overseas ballot information. If you called this fraudulent I would tend to agree.
Kieren:
You are selectively applying law to suit your needs.
Well of *course* I am. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If I'm going to be an advocate for my side, why should I help you guys out? You *also* selectively use the facts. That is fine. That is debate.
For example, you say that Miami/Dade didn't feel the sample they took warranted a recount. In fact it's the opposite. They extrapolated a significant Gore gain by that sample, and chose to start the hand recount in earnest. It was only after the court came back with a deadline that was impossible to meet that they chose to halt it.
Cave:
Sounds like a typical democratic/Goron response, trying to cloud the issue.
Sounds like you still trying to pretend that you have something relevant to add (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Nash:
Hey - if Rip can pull numbers out of thin air, so can I (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Btw - with regard to the "re-re-recount"... I think that's mistaken. In Miami (for example) - a toejam-load of ballots were porked... They got fed into a machine, the machine then spit them out without registering a thing. Then in the automatic recount, these same ballots were fed back into a machine and (suprise!) they got spit out again without being registered. Then a hand-count was started (as per Florida law), and the fine folks there got about 20% through (157 net gain by Gore) and decided they'd rather be playing bridge instead...so they went home. These things haven't been counted *once*, let alone recounted or re-recounted.
B]
Another of the Goron's popular myths. You said it yourself, they were run through the machines, not once, but TWICE. They WERE counted. For whatever reason no vote was recorded for the presidential race. The infamous "undervotes".
Is it so hard to believe that there may be 10,000 people in one place who chose to NOT vote for president because they support niether of the candidates? I find that pretty easy to believe, especially with all the people I've seen/heard say they aren't going to vote because they want to send a message.
Maybe these 10,000 voters chose to only vote in the congressional/local races because they felt that thier candidates in those races were worthy.
Hell Toad has said throughout this fiasco that the only reason he voted Bush was because Bush is more likely to appoint supreme court justices that Toad would agree with. Had Toad felt that both Bush and Snore would make the same asinine choices aboutjustices as everything else he might well have cast an "undervote" ballot. 'Course this is a hypothetical example using a person who has clearly stated his position time and again, and only he could say for sure (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nash damn near anything I have to say is more relevant in this particular issue than anything you have to say. I live here, you're an outsider looking in. So take your smug foriegner's opinion of my opinions of MY country, roll'em up, and smoke'em and get all choked up mate (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, I'm sure Goron would like to have you as a poster boy, you seem to spout the Dem party line better than most Dems I know.
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For example, you say that Miami/Dade didn't feel the sample they took warranted a recount. In fact it's the opposite. They extrapolated a significant Gore gain by that sample, and chose to start the hand recount in earnest.
Not true. They took a sample the first time around and said "No need for a recount." Bill Daley paid a visit and threatened a lawsuit, and they relented. They went into the heavily Democratic precincts and found 157 votes for Gore, then decided to count further would probably end up losing votes for Gore. They then decided to switch to the undervote, hoping to gain more votes this way. This riled the crowd, the canvass board decided to try to pull the stunt in secret upstairs (very poor judgement IMHO) and the crowd went nuts. The Cuban population began to threaten discrimination lawsuits, (ironic, Democrats being sued for discrimination), and the canvass board realized they were in a no-win situation. They were now spending lots of money on a cause that was going to lose votes for their party. They were facing a lawsuit if they persisted. Nothing good would come out of it, no matter what they did.
Now to hear the Democrats cite "violent riots" are so, so absurd. Do you remember Watts? L.A.? I do. How many Republicans were arrested in these "violent riots" in Miami/Dade? None?
Now you have a Democratic senator stating the Republicans were afraid of the African American vote in Miami/Dade, so they rioted to stop them from being counted, when the fact is, the African American vote is precisely the vote that was counted. This comment was racist, inaccurate, and intended to incite unrest. Totally uncalled for.
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about this recount the whole state crap. Since when does the winner ask for a recount?
I WON....I DEMAND A RECOUNT! that defies logic.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)
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Most of you will be suprised at this I expect, but had I not voted Bush (due to the Supreme issue) I think I'd have gone for Nader. (Not that Nader's any real leader either.)
My twisted little mass of neurons is basically "Green". I love the outdoors; I detest cities. I know Nader would never win, but I certainly wouldn't have minded seeing the Greens get 5% so they get the free funding next time around.
Before the howls over the conflict between Republicans and "green ideology" starts (and I don't think there's a nickle's worth of difference between Reps and Dems in this regard. They're all for sale. Who was it who said "It's not hard to buy a Congressman but it's hard to buy one that will stay bought!") I think the "Supreme" issue is more important than the "Green" issue.
The Supreme Court issue is going to have immediate impact in the near term future. We still have a little time to work on the "green". Indeed, it is and always will be a never-ending battle.
Pretty twisted, aren't I? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I kind of miss F4...I got such a chuckle out of him trying to make me into a staunch Republican. Always made my day!
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When asked to explain how a machine would know which votes were African American so it could know which to reject, Rev. Jackson declined further comment.
The Jackson jab aside (could not resist after seeing him mobilized on today), if you cared about each person's vote, you'd have asked for a total recount for the start (even just state). Remember, this has nothing to do with Bush, Al is the one that cares about everyone's vote. Anything less is a transparant lie attempting to cover your true intentions, which are to find enough votes to change the result of the election. This does not bother me half as much as the spin placed upon it as caring about 'you' when those facist (that word was used this week) republicans don't. There are counties in Florida where the rejected percentage is higher than the 2% or so in Dade (overseas for instance, where the rejected percentage approaches half of the recieved amounts).
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Golly-geenit it's lonely being me in here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Where's 'ol F4 when ya need a good diversionary side-stepping opportunity?
Whelp.... I'll do my best - and that's a promise. If elected, I will fight for you... er I mean *against* you! I will keep the big drug companies in... doh(!) I mean *you* in check.
Let me relate a story to you. I was in Madison Wisconsin the other day. There I met the most amazing woman, her name Maggie Williams. She was on a fixed income, with 3 small children, ages 7,6 and 4, respectively. She stood a frail five foot three, approximately 110 pounds. Irrelevant information, granted... but bear with me here. Because I think this is important. I really do. I think this gets to the heart, the *resiliency* if you will, of the American spirit.
Maggie... Well, I call her Mags... Now Mags, just for kicks, took up knitting. There was a problem, however. She had chronic, acute, really really painful (oh my god it hurts!) arthritis. She had to make a choice.
Would she pay for the expensive big evil drug company medication to relieve her, or put food on the table for her three small children? To make an absurd story short, she chose the medication. Well, it fills me with joy to tell you tonight that Mags went on to win the vaunted State Championship of Knitting.
She then went home that night and warmed up some milk, threw a bag of Orville Redenbackers popcorn in the microwave, sat down in her Lazy-boy, clapped twice to turn on the TV (magic!)just in time to see the reports of yet another electrocution in Texas.
Life is good.
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Nash-
You know the difference between a Republican and a Democrat?
Republicans give people a chance to screw their lives up before they kill them.
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no lightning riding in Texas. They get the sleepy juice.
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Dnil---Skyhawk until I get Dnil back :)
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer (http://www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer)