Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: Roscoroo on May 28, 2005, 01:34:26 PM
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ok when in the ma and i get knife fighting hard with an nme thats stick stiring i get the dont move your controls so fast message????
this only happens in the ma in heavy furballs ... never in the da inder the same curcomstances
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Sometimes snap-spins are showen as aircraft that are stick-stirring. Any sudden movement in the MA is exaggerated until the conclusive heading/position data shows up. It happens in the TA sometimes, too.
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I get this sometimes too.
While saddled up on a bandit and he begins jinking up then don and left then back to the right. When i try to mirror his movements i get the "Do not move controls so rapidly"
Most of the time ending in me getting shot down or crashing.
I wonder to myself every time. "Why didn’t the bandit i was following get the "Do not move controls so rapidly" message?
I have increased dead bands to help a little.
My question is. Why do we have the message at all? Is it responding to our joystick spiking? or is it HTCs attempt to limit our stick movements? I would think the former and not the latter. Otherwise i would think both players would get the message.
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Maybe the jerky movements are caused by lag?
In DA I once tried to show a squaddie a evasive maneuver i use in Hurri when things get very tight. On my front end i was never even stalling out (scissoring while using rudder to add slide) and on his it looked like i was stick stirring (dryland-trout-maneuver).
While flying, i never get the 'dont move etc' message...
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The anti-stick stirring program hurts the honest player more than the cheat. If you have an old joystick, you are going to get locked out and die. I had to scrap my old sidewinder because of that software "improvement" Some dweeb stick stirs, so others have to buy new joysticks to punish him.
Sort of like drinking poison and hoping the other guy dies.
It is typical of the human beast to try to control human behavior by overkill. We can't change human behavior, we can just punish the innocent.
The solution? Buy a new joystick :)
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I use a Microsoft Sidewinder and have never gotten that message.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
The anti-stick stirring program hurts the honest player more than the cheat. If you have an old joystick, you are going to get locked out and die. I had to scrap my old sidewinder because of that software "improvement" Some dweeb stick stirs, so others have to buy new joysticks to punish him.
Sort of like drinking poison and hoping the other guy dies.
It is typical of the human beast to try to control human behavior by overkill. We can't change human behavior, we can just punish the innocent.
The solution? Buy a new joystick :)
I agree. Been using the same jstick for 5-7 years and over the past 3 months have noticed I got the message more and more often. It got to the point where I can no longer use my beloved jstick do to the fact that any type of stall riding would result in the message. What makes me sure of the fact that it's the stick is that with my new one I shake and stir on it more not being use to it, and still receive no message. I sure do miss my old stick though, old friend:lol :D
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There are no honest players who fall under stick stirring.
Anything that is a blatant stick stirring will cause control locks for everyone with no exceptions.
If somebody just mashes on the controls to cause irregular and unexpected movements that does not trigger control lock, and somebody else has trouble shooting at him, then by all means he's doing a good job in evading enemy fire in whatever way he can.
Such movements hurts speed and stability of the plane. A slight detour and he's cannon fodder, just as he'll ever be.
Since the guy who tries to follow enemy movement will always have to watch first, and then respond, it is only natural that as a result he will be changing control input faster than the target plane, in order to catch up with his movements.
Nobody forces anyone to follow every enemy movement. All you gotta do is know where he'll end up, and then wait there. If there is a danger of control lock, and yet still the pilot chooses to risk it to try and not let go of the enemy plane, then there's basically no one to blame but himself. He is neither 'honest' nor 'innocent'. He knew the consequences, he chose to ignore it.
Frankly, since starting out AH with version 1.05, the 'dont move your controls so quickly' has not for once, been a problem for me.
Perhaps we should consider that the only reason it seems to do more harm than good, is because its everyday functions are invisible to us, while only its drawbacks are ever visible.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
If somebody just mashes on the controls to cause irregular and unexpected movements that does not trigger control lock, and somebody else has trouble shooting at him, then by all means he's doing a good job in evading enemy fire in whatever way he can.
Couldn't be further wrong. Stick stirring happens all the time. It can be filmed. And the pilots that do it know how to do it without locking up. Specifically I know of one pilot that feels stick stirring is a good tactic as it keeps him alive. Well he doesn't lose control due to "dont move" messages.
I myself have done some testing in the past. I can stir without getting the message as well. You don't lose speed or anything, because you're not moving. Just your input it. You just stir real quick, real shallow, and your plane doesn't move but your image of your plane rotates around all axis on everyone else's screen.
It's BS. It's because every client gets predition data based on current input direction or plane direction. If the plane literally only moves a fraction of a milimeter (which it would think was happening, when you stick stir) then it predicts that you're turning that way on everyone else's screen. Then it has to re-predict from that heading 5 times in rapid succession as it receives a fast series of new inputs, and the client re-predicts current headings several times. That doesn't affect the flight path of the plane, just the way it faces as it skids along its original path.
It's a drawback in the prediction code. No way around it without massive recoding. And it's coded like that in the first place to save us ALL a lot of bandwidth for information every milisecond.
So it's an exploit if the pilot does it. It's not something you can punish. It's just there, because of the need to keep bandwidth requirements low.
Simply ostracize stick stirrers, and smack them down HARD, so they learn how to fly (instead of how to game the game). Heck, only the weaker pilots even try it nowadays, as even basic flight skills get you past the point of stirring.
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in a zeke just pull up hard, and it puts you in a flat spin. When the enmy passes just turn the eng off kick out some flaps rudder away from spin, and turn eng back on. This should end you on his six. Not that I do it. Seen skychimp doing it once. So i tried it on him lol.
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Think about what is going on behind your screen when you are on a server with 600 players:
- Your PC processes the information and sends a signal down the internet across the conuntry or world to HTCs servers.
- The HTC servers are getting 600 packages of information, process it, deturmines who is close to who, then sends the results out to every PC who is in visual range
- The package is sent back down the internet, across country or world to your PC
- Your PC processes this and shows you the result
This all happens in milliseconds giving you the illusion of real time play as if the opponent is really behind the glass of your monitor.
HTC is the King of massive multiplayer on-line games and I have never found another massive multiplayer on-line game that plays a smooth as AH. The proof is posts like this where the average player really believes they are playing exact real time.
WTG HTC!
Gunner
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Kw is correct. I do not follow the maneuvers of players when it looks like they are stirring. I will usually chop throttle, pull an out of plane maneuver, wait for them to stop thier dweebish behavior and then blow them away.
Stirring will only defeat another dweeb, not a competent pilot.
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now what i ussually do is chop throttle and move way less then they are ... ussually i barrel roll to slow enough to get the shot as they violently Split S .. its about the same time i finally get the shot that i get the control message and it locks me from the shot .
1 it maybe hardware .. js vs gamming rigs
2 game latency or packets .
3 software / intardnet
this only happens when behind a stirrer or in a huge furball now and then (very heavy traffic in that one area)
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
now what i ussually do is chop throttle and move way less then they are ... ussually i barrel roll to slow enough to get the shot as they violently Split S .. its about the same time i finally get the shot that i get the control message and it locks me from the shot .
1 it maybe hardware .. js vs gamming rigs
2 game latency or packets .
3 software / intardnet
this only happens when behind a stirrer or in a huge furball now and then (very heavy traffic in that one area)
Question, how does someone else's violent stick movement affect your FE? If that is the case then that is a problem.
Although, I have never seen this message.
(full CH setup)
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Causes for the message:
1. Purposeful movement that exceeds the set limit by HTC.
2. Joystick spikes, usually from worn out joysticks, that makes the game think you are yanking the stick around. Is usually a 0 to 100% input jump in less than a second, so you don't notice but the game does.
Causes for the "freak out" plane in front of you:
1. Player yanks the stick all over and eventually gets penalized. (Ideal)
2. Player yanks stick once and flips into a snap spin. Computer tries to predict where the plane will go while waiting for packets but shows faulty information.
3. Same anticipation tactic happens when extremely fast but small inputs are made in random directions.
4. A packet is lost, causing the plane to rotate in the air before doing a massive warp. (Not as common)
5. You're drunk. REALLY drunk. Go to bed.
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simple solution to this.
Happens to me all the time.
I'm on someone, they start flopping around like a %$#@@$%... very simple. I just hit the brakes... Lag roll if I have to. Slide slip to burn E.
The stick stirin neweb obviously isnt going to pull any fantastic move on me because I am slow and behind him with my E scrubbed. Just wait for the shot to come each time he passes in your gun site.
Once he's back, safely in the tower you can proceed to poke fun at his flying or lack thereof.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Once he's back, safely in the tower you can proceed to poke fun at his flying or lack thereof.
Dumb Question. What exactly IS stick stirring? I mean... I think I know as it's probably fairly self explanetory... but why does anyone care?
Woof
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the point im tying to make here is the stick stirrer causes me to get the control message , even in level flight . (the biggie is its intermitent )
it happened last night again too .
(guy stirring hard , im off the gas , awaiting him to cross again , i start nosing up about one full sight ring for the shot as he crosses and Bammm locked controls )
i dont think its my stick, its coming back thru the game somehow . i think the conditions have to be just right though.
ok guys do you get what the problem is yet ????
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Pretty weird problem Roscoroo. Got any film of it?
What you describe defies all logic, as per my small melon.
I have no doubt you are experiencing it, just find it hard to grasp that it can be caused in anyway by your opponent "stick stirring."
You sure about your hardware?
I have never experienced this in the 4 years I have been flying here.
Weird.
Cheers,
RTR
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Rosc, that really does sound odd. Can't understand you someone else's FE can effect your FE in this manner. Post this up in the
TechSup forum. Maybe Scuzzy can shead some light on it.
If I had a stick stirrin' dweeb in my sights and couldn't kill him I'd be derned irritated too. :mad:
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
Dumb Question. What exactly IS stick stirring? I mean... I think I know as it's probably fairly self explanetory... but why does anyone care?
Woof
Because it total BS.
If a WWII pilot were to ...
pull the land-trout flip-flop (explained by Jetb)
or the overexagertated wing wave (109s, 190s, and F-4Us are famous for this)
or my favorite to watch ... the porpoise (favored by Spit and P-51 pilots)
... they would probably have blacked out, and/or knocked themselves out with their head bouncing around in the cockpit like loose change, and/or in the case of the porpoise, their eyes would have bled out from the repeated negative Gs ... yet in a game such as this, there is no real penalty that can be delivered or determined.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Because it total BS.
If a WWII pilot were to ...
pull the land-trout flip-flop (explained by Jetb)
or the overexagertated wing wave (109s, 190s, and F-4Us are famous for this)
or my favorite to watch ... the porpoise (favored by Spit and P-51 pilots)
... they would probably have blacked out, and/or knocked themselves out with their head bouncing around in the cockpit like loose change, and/or in the case of the porpoise, their eyes would have bled out from the repeated negative Gs ... yet in a game such as this, there is no real penalty that can be delivered or determined.
I agree it BS.
We model G fatigue, why not some of these. I'm sure it could be determined at what force an average, fit, pilot could not keep his head streight. The pilot could loose conciousness similar to a pilot wound. (Or whiplash and you now can only turn you head 30 degrees) If the force is strong enough for the head to hit the canopy then total blackout, no control movement and if you are not shot down you have to ride the plane to the ground. (that will teach them, maybe you regain conciousness 10 ft from the ground :lol )
As far a -G make the penalty more severe.
Otherwise, just kill the stick stirring bastages!
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How much do you model before it becomes a chore to fly and not a game?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
or my favorite to watch ... the porpoise (favored by Spit and P-51 pilots)
I'm kind of a dim bulb sometimes.... so basically this guy would just be moving the stick forward and back very fast? Wouldn't he red out and black out anyway? I'll have to fart around with this offline. I don't see why it would matter. Seems like you could still shoot him (assuming that, unlike me, you can hit anything to begin with). :D
Woof
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I've seen that neg g move too, and I don't know what it is. If I try that to avoid bullets, I'm in the tower real quick. When I see it beeing done to me, it looks like they're dodging my bullets. I don't think they're doing what I am seeing. If fact I have no clue what they are doing.
On an aside - I've read the whole loop how a shot is process. First on my end, thend sent to the host etc. etc. A long half second ordeal. Yet I have film of popping a sleeping la7 600 out and having him imediately start squirming when the first bullet hits.
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i havent been running film much lately . but i think i have in on 1 or 2 films ... i just need time to go thru them.
another point is that i'm all over them 200 distance when this happens .
last nite it happened right as ussuall and off i go flat level .. and 5 secs later i was a victum for manedog
i'll film my furballs this week and see if i can catch this . it could be sound causing this to or some other glitch . i always seem to get this right as im thinking about the shot.
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Originally posted by SkyWolf
I'm kind of a dim bulb sometimes.... so basically this guy would just be moving the stick forward and back very fast? Wouldn't he red out and black out anyway? I'll have to fart around with this offline. I don't see why it would matter. Seems like you could still shoot him (assuming that, unlike me, you can hit anything to begin with). :D
Woof
I played dumb after I had killed someone doing what slapshot described. After the "Fight", I PM'd him and commended him on his "fantastic" flying. I asked him how on earth he managed to pull those amazing moves.
He said...
Its very easy really. I just pull back the stick very fast so my plane spins out. I keep doing it until the guy on my 6 passes me and is then in front of me. Once he is, I let go of the stick, and the spin stops with a little forward stick presure and I can shoot him.
Saddly for him, i wasn't stupid enough to zoom on by while he pulled his retarded stick pulling malarchy.
Basicly the only way you have a chance pulling something like this with a con on your 6 and living through it to kill him, is if the guy on your 6 was born with out a brain.
You dont have to try and follow him with his turns or jinks or jerks.... Just cut throtle a little. Keep your speed up, but keep behind him with lag rolls... wait for the shot, it will come. He's in front of you... the shot will come. Make sure your timing is on, and when its right, shoot him.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Because it total BS.
If a WWII pilot were to ...
pull the land-trout flip-flop (explained by Jetb)
or the overexagertated wing wave (109s, 190s, and F-4Us are famous for this)
or my favorite to watch ... the porpoise (favored by Spit and P-51 pilots)
... they would probably have blacked out, and/or knocked themselves out with their head bouncing around in the cockpit like loose change, and/or in the case of the porpoise, their eyes would have bled out from the repeated negative Gs ... yet in a game such as this, there is no real penalty that can be delivered or determined.
Better modeling of real flight conditions would help but not for the reasons stated nor would the results be what you'd expect.
As I understand it, stick stirring is just rapping the stick around as fast as you can to confuse the game and cause the aircraft to appear in random positions. This is pretty easy to do in the game since we can't model true flight control feel correctly (stick force per G is a good example). In other words, it's a hell of a lot easier to slap my X-45 stick around like an epileptic bimbo than it is in a real plane which could take 10-30 lbs of force to move the stick it to it's limits. Likewise, the results of stick stirring in real life can only be approximated. Far from knocking the pilot out in real life, exactly the opposite will happen...basically nothing.
There is a measureable delay between a flight control input and response from the aircraft (change in pitch, roll, yaw). There are a lot of reasons for this as you'd expect but (gross oversimplification here) there are two main ones; slop in the flight control system and mass. Just because you move the stick doesn't mean you have an immediate and comparable movement of the flight control and physics tells us we can't instantaneously alter the path of an object in space. These add up to control system response time. If you move the stick from position A to position B and back again (stirring) faster than the response time nothing happens. As the speed of control movement is increased rapidity of aircraft movement increases only to the system response time afterwhich the responses decrease. If you can move the controls fast enough (as in stick stirring) essentially nothing happens.
Of course the controls do not "lock"either, and this is where modeling could be better. As soon as the control inputs decrease below the response time you begin to control the plane again. In the modeling, the controls lock for some period of time which is not realistic. More accurate modeling would just ignore inputs over a certain rate but immediately allow inputs less than that. Although it wouldn't "punish" the stick stirrer it would take away any reason to do it...i.e., stick stir and nothing happens.
We need to remember also that what is stick stirring to some may just be jinking to another. If someone has you in a gun solution (talking real life here), you'll do anything you can to get out of it. Break turns, snap rolls, high-G barrel rolls (both over the top and underneath) and negative-G push aways are all valid guns defenses and they're all based on the idea of generating high maneuver rates and unpredictable flight paths which by definition would make correct modeling difficult given the time delays inherent in the internet.
Mace
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It seems like my War Birds 3 ripoff game has something to that effect. The planes seem lazy in their manouvers and take much longer to roll. In AH, planes can suddenly roll with almost no resistance. It takes about 2 seconds of full stick deflection to roll a P38 perpendicular to the ground in wb3.exe .
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As for the "Floppy Fish" I think most players simply Snap Stall a wing and lose control. As for "Stick Stirring" i would like to fly behind someone who is doing this intentionally so i can understand the difference in how it looks.
Hmmm doesn't the AH2 flight model include Blackout and Red outs? Don’t these properties cause a player to lose control of the aircraft if the limits are pushed beyond the reasonable limit's?
And when said consequence occurs aren’t they an easy kill? Have you ever seen cockpit video of a 3D aerobatic pilot Snapping 4 point rolls climbing like a rocket then stalling into a double hammerhead followed by a high speed pass and mashing his way into a tumble or a Lomcevak? For the viewing pleasure of the un-knowing check these links.
Kirby1 (http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/aerobatics/video.htm)
Aerobatic Clips (http://rafaero.free.fr/videos-eng.html)
Now i realize that WWII Pilots weren’t in near the physical condition that the Extreme Aerobatic competition pilots are today. But the maneuvers you are referring to "the porpoise" "overexagertated wing wave" are very mild in comparison and I am sure most WWII Fighter pilots could withstand a mild red out and the black tunnel that said maneuvers may cause.
Just seems more like we get crabby cause we cant get a kill. Claiming that players are flying humanly impossible maneuvers.
The flight model does actually penalize for flying the AC beyond its capable flight envelope. As well as penalizing us for flying in a way that would cause us a physical malfunction. The stick stirring is something all together different. (Still would like to see a demonstration).
:)