Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKDejaVu on March 16, 2001, 10:35:00 AM
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I was flying last night and my squadies asked if I'd tried the WB3 beta. I had checked the FTP site earlier that day and it was busy. I hadn't thought about it since then.
My reply to them was "na.. probably won't".
It kinda shocked me that I said it, but it was very accurate. I just can't seem to muster the excitement for this new release that others are expressing. Maybe its just that I'm not as dissatisfied with the current game I'm playing. Maybe its that I'd rather not fight with another beta and its inherant problems. I don't know.. there's just no motivation.
Anyone else in this boat?
AKDejaVu
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"Raises hand"...after the arrogant response of one of the developers, I fell immediately into this catagory. Might try it after its officially out of beta. But as long as the developers behave as they do, I shall stay with the sims that give their customers, and potential customers the respect that their dollars deserve.
Edit: I'm not speaking of the numerous posts by HS, this is the one that strikes me that they are all bred from the same cast:
Requiring an active Warbirds or Dawn of Aces account WILL cut down on the "The paratroopers don't have sniper rifles! This sucks!" type feedback which we really don't need. A completely open beta too early would just generate too much feedback from Quake players about all the "missing" FPS elements, which of course shouldn't be there at all .
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Chris "VOR" Babcock
Senior Software Engineer
iEntertainment Network
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-16-2001).]
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I have to agree that is, to some degree, a factor for me too Rip.
The finally on that was when they blamed the 64 plane limit on game citing that they would remove that limitation in WB3. Later, they proudly announce that they removed the limitation, but they will not add more than 64 planes.
It seems they are learning as they go insulting everyone that has been there before them.
AKDejaVu
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Here's another classic that 'sealed the deal' with me:
Ah vs WBIII get real people.
** Sorry this is my last poke.
Ok, what do we need to compare.
How about AH does this.
1. Render the Grand camyon at 25m res, without a frame rate hit
2. Show us 1, 8000 polygon model, or better yet, a pic with 100,000 + polys
3. A terrain, that like the WBIII beta,t is developed in 1 day (8 hours) that comes close to our BETA test terrain
4. Any player skins
5. Any player AC models
6. full charactor animation
7. airfields that "blend" in with any terrain
8. Alpha object behind a fog bank, behind 16 could layers, that still looks "right".
It goes on and on people.
Sorry Dale is doing a great job, but you need to understand the talent base behind WBIII.
Enought said, lets not drag it out.
If you read the replies of all of the posts, their own community is alittle sick of it as well.
That last bold sentence is two-fold, gives praise to competitors, then acts like they(iEN) are the only ones that have talent.
LOL, better make those canopies alittle bigger for the developers!
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As WB 3 is currently, I didn't like it...
Graphics doesn't really impress me if interface and flight models are that same old stuff.
Though, WB 3 has more score for tries with terrain compared to AH.
Theres smoother height differences.. I liked to see some 'small' ditch there, where it would be just flat terrain in AH or hillside.
Terrain didn't either seem so boringly same looking.
one definitive bonus: some airfields has dirt runway instead of paved runway.
In AH those building platforms are boringly stinging in the eye.
but when I look at the plane models.. those looks bit too blurry and rough looking with all the polygons in those. (what they said.. even over 3000 polygons?)
So, I would stay with AH, but I still would wish for better terrains for AH.
WB 3 beta doesnt yet convince me.. it looks like a game that could been done 3 years ago already.
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Hmm....so in other words, they take their brand new game, compare it to a game which is several years old, then pat themselves on the back because their game uses better technology? How funny!
If superior game technology is the only thing they can trumpet, then they're in trouble.
J_A_B
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I read this on AWG: http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/019089.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/019089.html)
Why are they releasing this version of WBIII???
It sounds like it's not ready for prime time.
All the hype that has gone into WBIII and it shows up in public in a really incomplete form. I don't get it. Why would I pay money to play an incomplete online game??
I guess I will just keep an eye on it to see if it ever becomes a complete sim and then take a look at it.
Damn, we are lucky that HTC is around. They have done more in 1 year then anyone has done in years for online flight sims.
I think HTC is the only one with their sh*t together!!
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I'll be honest with my opinion as usuall. I had the thing within an hour of the link being up on AGW. Why? I wanted to see what the hype was about. Yes. There WAS alot of hype that came before the release.For weeks and months. So I tried it out of curiosity. And I've already said my piece about what I thought of it.
The bare nekkid truth is, WB III could be mind blowingly advanced (which it aint) but as long as being a customer I would have to endure HotSeat and the current iEN team/management? I'll never be a customer. A good gaming community starts at the top down. There are alot of goodpeopel in the WB's comunity. More concentrated jack tulips in one place too. But I have too much dignity and respect for myself than to have to put up with HS and teams baloney.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-16-2001).]
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Did you ever wonder why HT and Pyro pretty much stay away from posting 'opinions' of the other sims out there? Exactly for this reason.
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1. Render the Grand camyon at 25m res, without a frame rate hit
2. Show us 1, 8000 polygon model, or better yet, a pic with 100,000 + polys
3. A terrain, that like the WBIII beta,t is developed in 1 day (8 hours) that comes close to our BETA test terrain
4. Any player skins
5. Any player AC models
6. full charactor animation
7. airfields that "blend" in with any terrain
8. Alpha object behind a fog bank, behind 16 could layers, that still looks "right".
To put it bluntly..
Hotstink is full of toejam in regards to several statements.
#1. Look at the resources his bloated code requires... I'll wager HT could do more with less.
#2. Look at the difference in aircraft perpectives in external view... dumb bellybutton went with 3DSmax instead of Multi Gen - and it really shows. <LOL>
#3. I could put together a terrain in 8 hours with the AH terrain editor, and the whole community has access to the editor..thats not the case with Hotstinks bloatware.
#4. Why would this make any difference? I'll guarantee Superfly and Natedog will produce higher quality better looking historically accurate paint schemes and get them into the game quicker than the WB community and producers will.
#5. See above.
#6. Dunno wtf this is and probably doesn't make a hill of beans anyway.
#7. <chuckle> Shows how much Hotstink knows about AH terrain editor, this is easily done.
#8. Show me the money, all I saw was some vaporous crap that could pass for a fart blowing in the wind.
After checking out this so-called beta <alpha> I won't bother downloading the next incomplete pile of crap they throw out, if this is Hotstinks best effort no wonder iEN won't hire him full time.
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I have been flying WBIII in offline combat mode, and I will say that actual aerial combat beats AH, at least IMO. For some reason, it feels smoother, and the flight path of enemy planes just looks smoother and more fluid. In other words, it looks real when a bogey is following you through all your evasive maneuvers.
Additionally, combat damage is more visually exciting than AH. When you rip up an enemy plane, you can actually see numerous little pieces of metal coming off the planes, as well as pieces of the airframe such as ailerons, rudders, wintips. It really gives you the impression that you are "chewing" the plane up.
On the other hand, it has the same old boring rubber band flight model, which in my book is a HUGE negative. 190's feel like they are in a molasses roll mode. Also, some of the 3D cockpit art like on the 1090E is very cartoony, although you could get used to it.
All in all, I could care less about the attitude or arrogance behind a sim. Could give a flip whether or not the developers think they are gods. If they put out a good product, I'm there dude. As of right now, it is still a good alternative for AH, but not quite up to par. The clouds are really great though. I wish AH had those clouds.
fscott
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<Sits patiently, warming hands by the fire, wondering where the WB Cheerleaders are...>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Actually, I'm game for any new improvements that one speaks of in regards to software technology, but....show me the money! Can they bring this software along fast enough (from beta to production) before others lose interest and/or another competitor or 2 (WW2 online/IL-2) come 'online'? That is to be seen.
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Maybe I'll check it out... when they have an arena setup for it.. and the game is more complete.
Of course, in the end, if they resort to an hourly charge or anything over 30$/month, well it's gonna be a waste of a pretty nice terrain engine.
-SW
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Fscott:
When you rip up an enemy plane, you can
actually see numerous little pieces of metal coming off the planes, as well as pieces of the airframe such
as ailerons, rudders, wintips. It really gives you the impression that you are "chewing" the plane up.
Errr...you don't play AH much do you? AH has this as well, and in addition to the little parts coming off, when you explode the plane, you get a cascade of parts all over!
WBIII will get better, its beta, and they have to.
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Perhaps the WB netcops are too busy being called out on thier bull? Cabby, one of the biggest tulips I've ever seen in any of the sims has gotten a couple of em fired up.
http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/019036.html (http://agw.dogfighter.com/agw//Forum3/HTML/019036.html)
-Westy
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Rip, he means when you are shooting and hitting the enemy, little parts fly off. They aren't actually from the airplane, just random objects created that fall away from the plane to represent the skin getting torn off.
How realistic this is, I have no idea. If anyone remembers Pacific Strike, they did that there too... but it seemed like by the time you shot the bad guy down and you had seen all of the pieces falling away, his plane wouldn't of had any skin left anyway.
It would be an interesting effect to have here, but not be overdone. In DOA you can see little wood chunks fall away from the plane when you shoot them.
It's a cool little "wow, that's neat" effect but has no effect on how the plane looks after it's damaged.
The only game I know of that exists and models the plane's skin being shorn away and you can see little parts fall off is B17II.
Amazing graphical detail in there, shoddy flight model.
-SW
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I D/l'd it and played with it for about 5 minutes. About the same as I do with the AH "beta" releases.
I don't like beta crap, I like a full game. My flying time is limited, so I save it for scenario type flying.
AH is getting close to being a full fledged game; WB3 has a long way to go.
edit-SW the flight model is the same as WB2.x, they did a few minor c/g corrections is the only change.
[This message has been edited by Gadfly (edited 03-16-2001).]
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Ahh, rgr, thks for clarification Wulfie...wonder how much that will affect this scenario:
A) 250 folks online
B) FR hit from that info being passed thru the internet via each FE?
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-16-2001).]
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Lizking, same here for me in AH, tried .34...once...tried .44, for a week...didn't really get 'into' it until 1.0.
Beta is beta, not a finished product. We'll see how fast they can move, because their competition is moving quite fast now, with more coming online soon.
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I have always pondered the WHY in why people are so obtuse to change. In this case everyone is afraid that some other sim just might give AH some real competition.
I think the sole reason is becasue we get comfortable, we get good at flying our favorite sim. We get used to it, and we are afraid to have to learn a sim all over agian.
There's really no other reason for it. I know Ripsnort has give an, ahem..excuse because the developers are, ahem..arrogant. Sorry, that doesn't hold any substance with me. That is just a convenient excuse to use when one resists change.
I hope WB3 moves along so fast that it overtakes AH within a month. I'm not resistant to change. I welcome it. It is a challenge to have to relearn how to fly, as you always do with a new sim. However, I also hope AH moves along so fast that it will continue to be a step ahead of WB3. Becasue then we will see some really great simming.
fscott
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Dunno Rip.. it depends on if they model them similar to a wing falling off (everyone can see it) or a hit sprite (only the shooter sees it). If its the latter, it shouldn't really matter how many are on line. If its the prior.. 256 M RAM may not be enough.
AKDejaVu
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I'm going to be flying WBIII open beta but not as much as Aces High, I can fly a more complete product here even if its the same tired old MA Furball arena. When WBIII matures and brings back the WW2A then maybe I'll reconsider but then who knows where AH will be then. All the squeaking aside about the numbers of teams for a WW2A its much easier to make a terrain for two teams that is not symetrical but gives both teams an equal start, the current three country setup IMO seriously hampers the creation of an interesting terrain for the MA which is why we're stuck with the 'uterus of hell' terrain we have now.
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I do have to agree Ien, should be better in the Customer Service department. I for instance would never want HS's job or any others at Ien, I have no patience for it either oh well.
Rip, as far as only letting account holders in the beta I agree with it. WB isn't a new game where you need lot's of new people to play it. Like AH in it's early days (totally new game...totally new people) It already has a base of players to test it. And as for the WB beta IMO it looks pretty damn good (much work left to do and much we havent seen)
I, like all of you, love the sim I play, and am interested in other sims as well...what baffles me is why the 2 communities don't get along that well sometimes. We have the same interests just different outlets.
Well that's my $.02
Narsus
Avid WB flyer, but always sneaking a peak at AH (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by narsus (edited 03-16-2001).]
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I think all in all the majority of both communities get along well, its only a minority that actually post on these BBS's, and of that, there's only a small minority that don't get along.
In regards to developers (Fscott), it DOES affect you and I, our input into a sim dictates the end product, so for a developer to have an open mind, and feel that the customer is an important piece of the puzzle is important in my book. How would you like to be part of a sim where the developer says, 'This is what you get, its the best there is because I have the best talent'...is that good for you, the end user?
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Rip,
I generally don't reply to threads like this one, except to set the facts straight.
So let me say: of the many developers I've worked with, Hotseat is the best. No roadkill. Hugely competent. And if you're not a sensitive, 90s kind of guy, it's pretty damn clear that he does listen.
Yes, he's terrible at holding his customer's hand, looking deep into their eyes, and convincing them that they matter more to him than anybody else in the world.
He's arrogant, he can be cruel, and he's bloody good.
That's the key for me. How bloody damn good he is. I don't care about the rest. That's true for me in the rest of my life, and I find it works the same in my sim-life.
I'm afraid my post has upset some of you. I apologize. You, my simming friends, matter more to me than anything else in the world (looks deep into Rip's eyes, and smiles).
avin
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Hey avin, I respect your insight, that's what these boards are about, ones opinion, we don't all see the glass 1/2 full or 1/2 empty.
<S>
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Avin, all I can say about current iEN team is that they are extremely funny. Gave me tons of joy! I still think that "imbecilic communist bastard" was the funniest phrase I heard in years! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
HotSeat said he is going on a vacation, hope we'll be able to meet him in Moscow as he promised (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) After what you said (and believe me - I trust your opinion!) he must be a very interesting person!
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Gadfly:
edit-SW the flight model is the same as WB2.x, they did a few minor c/g corrections is the only change.
(edited 03-16-2001).]
Oh no.. you misunderstood me Gadfly.. I was referring to B17II, not WBIII. I haven't even loaded up WBIII to try it out. I was just commenting on B17II.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
-SW
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Hi Avin
I value your opinion a lot.
But hs comes off as a total little immature jerk.His mouth and attitude is what finally convinced me to leave w/b as well as many others.IEN management sure didn't help the situation either.
He has blamed everyone he can think of for w/b's problems and his attitude stinks.
He would have to put out a product so far above anyone elses for me to even consider it.I sure don't see even a hint of that yet.
BTW is Redant still around?
Frodo
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Wow, Cool. A thread where one sims fans is constructively critical of another sim and the other sims fans don't come in and insult everyone.
What a concept (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I like it. Hope the trend continues.
Lugnut
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I've typed this before people, "We, AH customers, need WBIII to be sucessful: We need them to be extremely sucessful!!"
I wish WBIII all the luck in the world. The only thing I was to HTC was a paying customer. I paid for a service and HTC provided it. If someone provides a better service for the same or less money, I will pay that person for on-line flight simulation services. (AH community is pretty cool though) It just business, nothing more, nothing less.
Cool (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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HS recently made a post on AGW that said that the only thing that comes close to WB3 is IL2. Well, I've seen screens of both. WB3 planes look like children's drawings next to IL2 screens.
Now, either he is blind. Or, he thinks we are. I expect a little arrogance from someone that is good. But im dammed is I see anything in WB3 to be arrogant about.
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Nope, havent tried it and dont plan to. There are a couple other sims up and comming that have my attention, plus im very happy here. Not to mention I dont have an account there and am not about to open one just so I can beta test their new toy,
Besides, I will never give IEN another red cent of my money anyway, so there is little point in me even downloading it.
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Between Littman and Coldsnot (err Hotseat) I have no reason to give it a shot. Problems with them are well known, and their customer service dept. I've seen screen shots of WB 3, IL-2, WW2OL, and to be honest WB 3 looks more like Quake 2 with the lightmap feature active! If you've never seen it, picture that B-24 in the shot Rip posted. No texture, just light. Same sh^t, different day. As I read on the IEN boards well over a year ago "WB 3 will basically be 2.7x with new graphics at the beginning". If you compare the two sims there's nothing to it really. Aside from plane numbers AH has WBs beat. Scenarios are rapidly catching up so that's out, and in Hostile Shores the USAF is involved! I love that.
Honestly now, AH beta shots look better than WB3 shots. WB3 terrain and aircraft look a little smudged to me. Hotseat is doing the same thing he's done for years; run his mouth. I'd rather pay HTC $120 a month to fly here than pay $1 to fly there. I have never seen such a blantant lack of support from any company. Here we've got a full-time bug board; that alone tells me HTC cares. Yeah it gets redundant fast treating each bug like a serious hack. But it works, and the bugs get fixed so fast it's almost unreal.
HTC is spoiling us, really. But maybe, just maybe, other companies will notice and change their ways. Can you imagine some place like WW2OL with the same feedback and support we get here? THAT would be great! But where ever there's a great place like HTC, there's about 500 horridly run businesses. I won't try WB3 because the company that spawned it disgusts me. I won't try WW2OL because I can't run it yet. Once I can, believe me I will.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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I REALLY like the terrain..THATS IT, FM seems to be constructed of some form of ass.
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They ain't kidding about there being "anomalies" with Voodoo 5s...man, now I know I don't need to try LSD, just play WB III...propellers are rotating rectangles, the ground looks like a shimmering rainbow-colored oil-slick, etc.
I bet they never fix it and just tell everyone to buy GeForces like they should have in the first place.
And I haven't sat down and actually counted, but isn't AH ALREADY ahead of WBIII in numbers of aircraft, or very close to passing them.
Of course, as it turns out WBIII IS going to rely on players for artwork AND plane models. This should be entertaining.
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Torgo:
In WB3, we can develop our own skins for the planes. So for example we can fly in the correct squad colors for the group we are representing. This is a good thing. I also assume if a player submits authentic artwork for a particular plane and IEN likes it they could use it in their library. Again, this is a good thing and allows freedom of choice.
On plane models, your statement is wrong, players cannot modify the planes Flight Model. There are no plans that I am aware of and I doubt this would be supported by the community.
Also you all need to remember this is the first beta release and they have not added all the features in yet. So let's wait and see what the final product looks like.
Ram1
Trogo wrote:
Of course, as it turns out WBIII IS going to rely on players for artwork AND plane models. This should be entertaining. [/B][/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by Ram1 (edited 03-17-2001).]
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Originally posted by Ram1:
On plane models, your statement is wrong, players cannot modify the planes Flight Model. There are no plans that I am aware of and I doubt this would be supported by the community.
Looks more like you misunderstood what Torgo was saying. He was referring to the 3D models, not the flight/physics model. He would of said Flight Model if he meant that, when someone refers to plane models, they are referring to an object created using a series of polygonal faces. :-)
-SW
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No, I meant Flight Models.
I believe I read a post on AGW where Hotseat more or less said exactly that.
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The Player Development Corps™ as described by iEN literature seeks to involve players in created artwork and flight models, as well as doing research. That doesn't mean it'll be completely uncontrolled.
As for who has more planes: WB has something like 63 or 64. I count 36 in AH, 4 ground vehicles, and one boat (see my numbers for AC at the bottom -- I probably missed some). But WB (2.X) counts subvariants as different aircraft; so the 109G6 for example is a different plane than the 109G6/R6. If you follow that counting scheme, AH has more LW planes than WB has planes total. WB3 appears to be a more flexible platform: you can load a cannon pod onto the 110; but currently AH has more planes modelled than available in WB3.
RAF: 6
VVS: 4
LW: 10 (rather 9 LW and one FAF)
RA: 2
USAAF: 8 (rather 7 USAAf, and one Brazilian)
USN: 4
IJN: 2
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I'm afraid HS is one of the main reasons I no longer fly WB. I'm not asking for a 'caring, sensitive new-age guy' type developer, but I have a real problem when he constantly belittles just about everyone else in the flight-game industry.
Anyone read his post about how proud he was that WBIII was not a 'BS factory' - and directly implying that it had been so in the past?
Now whether that dig was directed at Dale and Pyro, or whether it was directed at the current WW2OL crew, is debatable. But I've seen him cast too many insults towards both AH and WW2OL for me to have a high opinion of his character.
Remember his arguably defamatory remarks about Argo and AGW? ... that they 'promoted' Freehost? The guy's standing on the shoulders of giants (those who initially developed Warbirds), and crowing that he's got a slightly better view than anyone else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
By the way Ripsnort, I couldnt let THIS comment go by (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I shall stay with the sims that give their customers, and potential customers the respect that their dollars deserve.
So, who ARE the anonymous arena monitors who can mute you for 10 minutes at a time? Do you regard THAT as 'the respect that their dollars deserve'? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Only ONE contender in the flight market currently treats its customers like adults IMHO .... and it ain't IEN.
Then again, it ain't HTC either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11
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One of my squadmates from WB writes for SimHQ. He posted the problems with the VooDoo 5 and the beta/alpha form of the game. He said he then got a letter from HS (or some iEN rep) telling him to knock it off, and not to critisize their product.
iEN strikes again with their "We're the best and you can't do anything about it" crap.
I don't need WB cheerleaders anywhere. I sometimes get angry on the AGW because some of the people just think WBIII beta is the best out there and that AH pales in comparison.
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Semper Fi, Do or Die! Kill, kill, kill!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by texace (edited 03-20-2001).]
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One of my squadmates from WB writes for SimHQ. He posted the problems with the VooDoo 5 and the beta/alpha form of the game. He said he then got a letter from HS (or some iEN rep) telling him to knock it off, and not to critisize their product.
ROFLMAO !
Too bad its against good manners to post a personal mail in UBB, It would be fun to see that mail (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 03-20-2001).]
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A Kangaroo ate your baby?..........
Y
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New update just released, VOODOO 5 covered apparently.
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Hey frodo,
I thought I was the reason you left warbirds (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) heheheheheh
Old Fart / Red Falcon