Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Suave on May 30, 2005, 07:42:26 AM
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In the year 2005.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20050529/ts_chicagotrib/omittingthepastsdarkerchapters
"They said my book was `blackening' Russian history," Dolutsky said during a recent interview. "It was the first prohibition of a textbook in schools in 25 years."
The offending portions
Later, Dolutsky's publisher told him which historical references in the book irked authorities: Stalin's non-aggression pact with Hitler in 1939; Soviet occupation of the Baltic states; the execution of thousands of Polish officers by Russian intelligence agents at Katyn in 1940; Stalin's deportation of legions of Chechens to Kazakhstan in 1944.
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Anybody that believes in the myth that the 'winners' write the history books should stop by a Japanese classroom.
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The country is slowly but surely falling back to the dark ages. Not that it got far in the first place.
If you look at the dictionary you'll find that FUBAR is explained with 'refer page 42, Soviet Russia'
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The country is slowly but surely falling back to the dark ages. Not that it got far in the first place.
If you look at the dictionary you'll find that FUBAR is explained with 'refer page 42, Soviet Russia'
I would like to see your classroom history books. Looks like I'll find there a lot of interesting things, wich have no attitude to reality.
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the 90s were a nice decade. now it seems the whole world is going down the pooper.
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So they finally try to get rid of "Russia - the Mother of all Evil" attitude.
It's definetly better then to have a modern history book that has 10 pages about WWII, 8 of them about lame "allied" fighting at North Africa and on some god-forgotten islands in the Pacific, with only 5 lines about Stalingrad.
Later, Dolutsky's publisher told him which historical references in the book irked authorities:
Yeah! Irked authorities! We have another "fighter with evil totalitarian regime"! Freedom to parrots!
Stalin's non-aggression pact with Hitler in 1939;
Yes, another modern pop-history stunninghunk who says that USSR had to get into war in 1939 to die for "allied" interests.
Soviet occupation of the Baltic states;
What occupation? Did I miss something? They were allowed to join USSR after a legitimate democratic procedure. Or was it better to leave the brave sprat-killers to Hitler?
the execution of thousands of Polish officers by Russian intelligence agents at Katyn in 1940;
A new, refreshing view on Katyn tragedy: now it was Russian intelligence!
Especially after Russian General Prosecutor's office supplied documents about Polish prisoners that definelty prove that there were no mass executions.
Stalin's deportation of legions of Chechens to Kazakhstan in 1944.
A smart decision, he'd better send the bloody murderers to the sunny shores of Taimyr.
My verdict: silly rant of a discredited "propaganda warfare" mercenary.
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Boroda about those glasses youre wearing..
It's not red as roses, it's blood.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Boroda about those glasses youre wearing..
It's not red as roses, it's blood.
then I wonder how you still see anything through your black ones, coloured by the same substance. Oh, sorry, your vision is already impaired to blindness... Mixing up rose with blood-red is a good example, for you it's the same colour.
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Hardly rewriting history, and given Russias victory and cost to defesting Germany pretty much entitiles them to wetie what they like in their history books. Every country is biased when it comes to own history.
Most kids these days don't even get a word of WW2 in history so four words on one siege is better then nothing.
...-Gixer
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Boroda has your country ever done anything wrong? You always seem to have a reason (excuse) why something happened or just flat out reject that fact that it did. Remind us again how long you have had free press in Russia
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Originally posted by Gixer
Hardly rewriting history, and given Russias victory and cost to defesting Germany pretty much entitiles them to wetie what they like in their history books. Every country is biased when it comes to own history.
Most kids these days don't even get a word of WW2 in history so four words on one siege is better then nothing.
...-Gixer
Great logic!!! :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Gixer
Most kids these days don't even get a word of WW2 in history so four words on one siege is better then nothing.
...-Gixer
how do you know?
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Originally posted by parker00
Boroda has your country ever done anything wrong? You always seem to have a reason (excuse) why something happened or just flat out reject that fact that it did. Remind us again how long you have had free press in Russia
Free press is an oxymoron.
We have done many things wrong. Sometimes I think that the reason for it was too much humanism.
Russian Empire waged a Caucasian War for 60 years, since early XIX century. At the same time US was fighting Indians. Look now - where are Indians, and where are Chechens and other nationalities from Caucasus?... I am proud that my country never practiced or planned genocide.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Free press is an oxymoron.
We have done many things wrong. Sometimes I think that the reason for it was too much humanism.
Russian Empire waged a Caucasian War for 60 years, since early XIX century. At the same time US was fighting Indians. Look now - where are Indians, and where are Chechens and other nationalities from Caucasus?... I am proud that my country never practiced or planned genocide.
How do you know about the Indians, oh yeah because we allow everyone to see and talk about our mistakes so we learn from them. It wasn't a high or proud point of American history but we don't deny it either.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Most kids these days don't even get a word of WW2 in history so four words on one siege is better then nothing.
I am almost sure that "4 words" were in a book by that "fighter with tyrrany" sorry forgot his name.
Barely mentioning GULAG - well, there were less prisoners in GULAG in worst "Stalin's repressions" years then in 1999 Russian Federation, under "super-democratic" Yeltsin.
I was born in Leningrad, and I can assure you - the Siege will never be forgotten at least by 4 millions of people who live in SPb now.
Historical "education" in last 15 years led to appearence of young people who dare to say that "we should better lose a war to Hitler, so we could ride Mercedeses now". All I can tell them is "yeah, as leather on the seats".
I am tired of lies that make every Russian feel like his nation only comitted crimes and isn't capable of doing anything other then murders for all it's history.
I repeat - lies, like "Soviet POWs were starved by nazis, unlike Brits and Americans, because Stalin didn't sign a Geneva convention".
1) Any country that signed a Geneva convention has to treat all POWs regardless to the country of origin equally.
2) USSR signed Geneva convention in the 30s.
Good example, isn't it? I wonder if it's mentioned in history schoolbooks, I'll not be surprised if it was.
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Originally posted by parker00
How do you know about the Indians, oh yeah because we allow everyone to see and talk about our mistakes so we learn from them. It wasn't a high or proud point of American history but we don't deny it either.
We don't hide any unpleasant facts about Russian Empire or USSR too.
Can you give me examples of genocide of millions of people preformed by Russian state?
Sorry about "no genocide at all" statement. I forgot what Ivan IV did to Novgorod, but I bet you never heard about it. Anyway, European "civilized nations" did much worse things to Slavonic people at the very same time.
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1) Any country that signed a Geneva convention has to treat all POWs regardless to the country of origin equally.
2) USSR signed Geneva convention in the 30s.
Too bad anything USSR signed was not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
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http://www.ukar.org/famine.html
http://www.holodomor.org/
Of course those are just propaganda.
Sovier Union tried to save Ukraine and its people but alas; capitalist forces destroyed all glorious 5 year plans before they were executed (plans; not persons) and thus millions died.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Too bad anything USSR signed was not worth the toilet paper it was written on.
Опять сявка пиздоблядская хавало ракрыла......
So how much costs USA and Britain promisses to open second front in 1942?
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btw Boroda and his lackeys are minority in Russia; most persons knows their history and what have their country done.
Most are also quite intelligent people and friendly as any other guy/gal in any other country.
It's just that they haven't ever get to known a democratic system and how it's working and thus they don't miss it.
Maybe dictatorship is good choice for Russia.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Can you give me examples of genocide of millions of people preformed by Russian state?
Yep just like Staga said, and we have been round and round on this, Stalin never hurt the Ukrainians, its just nasty US propaganda.
One day you gotta look at yourself in the mirror and say that. And when you do tell us if you see good camrade Joe cause that means you have not even tried to learn anything at all.
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well, we have to concede this to Boroda: Nothing like the Holocaust was done by the Soviet state.
The reason for that is simple: The dissenters were sent off to Siberia where they still had to do work for the state. No reason to kil them. And to most, their fate seemed worse than death, being separated from their families, friends and their entire previous life.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
well, we have to concede this to Boroda: Nothing like the Holocaust was done by the Soviet state.
The reason for that is simple: The dissenters were sent off to Siberia where they still had to do work for the state. No reason to kil them. And to most, their fate seemed worse than death, being separated from their families, friends and their entire previous life.
With regard to the 'nothing like the holocost by the soviet state'.. Horsepucky.
In total, Soviet industrial genocide accounted for at least 40 million victims, not including 20 million war dead.
Unca Joe was the greatest mass murderer in human history. Period.
Ukraine Genocide.. UKRANIAN LINK (not american) (http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/unknhol.htm)
Kinda pointless hollering at Boroda about it.. he didn't do it. All we can do is hope that one day Russia will come to grips with the truth about it's past. Yes, all great nations have been involved in genocide. It's history. And untill we all come to grips with the past, THE TRUTH, and understand what, how, why it occured.. well, then it's likely to happen again.
Denial of truth is a not the way to build a better world.
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hey, I'm not saying Stailn wasn't a murderer or that he was better than Hitler in any way. just that his methods were slightly different.
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Boroda makes me laugh, hes like one of those bad russian characters out of a B grade 60's movie.
I sometimes wonder if Boroda is funkedup or airhead, or maybe another mrblack personality...
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neah he's real. there's pics and everything.
Sometimes I think he's just trolling to get a rise out of the people here. But if he is, he's good at it!
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quote:
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1) Any country that signed a Geneva convention has to treat all POWs regardless to the country of origin equally.
2) USSR signed Geneva convention in the 30s.
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Hey Boroda?
How about the Russian's stopping, and allowing the Nazi's to slaughter Poles?
How about the "routine" raping of German women on the Berlin advance?
July 10th, 1938 - The NKVD reports it arrested 134,519 Poles in the USSR during Polish Operation of whom between 54,000 and 67,000 were shot and the rest sent to camps or Kazakhstan.
But this didn't happen either did it?
September 17 - 25, 1939 - Thousands of Poles are slaughtered in eastern Poland by elements of Ukrainians, Byelorussians and Jews, encouraged by Soviet slogans such as: "For Poles, Pans and dogs--a dog's death!" In Karczowka, 24 Polish settlers are tied with barbed wire and are shot or drowned. In Luboml County, 500 Poles are murdered in a 3-day orgy by Ukrainians. A wounded priest in Brzezany County is placed near a road and is used by passing Soviet soldiers as target practice; a dozen bullets hit him before he dies at the end of the day.
or how about this?
Katyn Massacre. I'm sure even Gorbachev's ADMITTANCE, isn't good enough for you.
maybe these?
June 22 - 29, 1941 - Soviets slaughter prisoners in their cells
or on death marches in wake of the Nazi invasion of
the USSR. As many as 120,000 people (mostly Poles and
Ukrainians but also a few Jews) will be murdered.
August 30, 1943 - Poles of Wola Ostrowiecka are rounded up by Ukrainian Nationalists. The men are hacked to death while women and children are packed into a school into which grenades are thrown: 550 people are murdered including 220 children.
February 22, 1944 - NKVD troops surround hundreds of Chechen villages in USSR, and in 24-hours deport the population to Siberia. Some 530,000 Chechens perish, and survivors can only return in 1956.
August 1, 1944 - Warsaw Uprisng erupts as 42,000 AK soldiers and civilians attack the Germans. Only 2,500 are properly armed while the Germans have 16,000 well-armed troops who will be strengthened.
August 2, 1944 - Polish insurgents seize two-thirds of Warsaw.
For three days they await a German counter-attack confident they can hold it off and achieve liberation before the Red Army arrives.
August 3, 1944 - Stalin promises Poles that the Red Army will attack Germans if the Uprising lasts for 6 days. It will last 63 days
but no help will come.
BUT I am sure NONE of this happened Boroda?
Karaya
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Man...we could spot this thread going downhill faster then a redneck stuffed inside of a goodyear tire.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Man...we could spot this thread going downhill faster then a redneck stuffed inside of a goodyear tire.
A bunch of us are just plain fed up with Boroda's "expertise" in Sarin, Nuclear Physics, and "rewriting Soviet History".
Karaya
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In defense, each of us has a tendancy to write our own histories - that is something that everyone, and every nation is guilty of at somepoint. And every nation has blood on its hands at some point as well.
Do you agree or no Karaya?
As for resenting a person's encyclopedic knowlege on whatever topic is at hand, pick up a book and contribute to the discourse rather then openly bash.
I don't see folks flaming Widewing for everything he knows about aircraft and Naval Aviation from his life long first hand experience with the subject.
Nor do I see anyone evicerating Dago about mechanical issues with aircraft, despite his 20 years + qualifications as an A&P in the field.
Point is - tone it down. Take everything with a grain of salt, and don't sweat the small ****.
Wolf
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Originally posted by Wolfala
In defense, each of us has a tendancy to write our own histories - that is something that everyone, and every nation is guilty of at somepoint.
Do you agree or no Karaya?
As for resenting a person's encyclopedic knowlege on whatever topic is at hand, pick up a book and contribute to the discourse rather then openly bash.
I don't see folks flaming Widewing for everything he knows about aircraft and Naval Aviation from his life long first hand experience with the subject.
Nor do I see anyone evicerating Dago about mechanical issues with aircraft, despite his 20 years + qualifications as an A&P in the field.
Point is - tone it down. Take everything with a grain of salt, and don't sweat the small ****.
Wolf
I'm not flaming anyone. I am once and for all, posting FACTUAL EVENTS that cannot be denied. Why you gonna tell me that? Other people in here have said worse stuff than I did? But, you and I know why you did.
No point taken. No point needed. You're "attempting to lecture" the wrong person.
Then again, it is ok for you to start a thread "that would inevitably" Bash France for it's vote against an "EU Constitution"? Practice what you preach, I've not an ill will towards you, but don't try to come across as a saint. Please, at least show that sort of respect.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'm not flaming anyone. I am once and for all, posting FACTUAL EVENTS that cannot be denied. Why you gonna tell me that? Other people in here have said worse stuff than I did? But, you and I know why you did.
No point taken. No point needed. You're "attempting to lecture" the wrong person.
Karaya
I'm not affirming or contradicting anything - and that was not a lecture either. If it was, i'd probally give you a 60 page dissertation on the subjects you listed which would make the provost's eye's bleed and your brain hemorage.
Don't sweat it.
Wolf
P.S.
It was not a shot against France. But it was a very very clever piece of writing that was quite humorous to read.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I am proud that my country never practiced or planned genocide.
So what was Stalin's excuse?????
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
well, we have to concede this to Boroda: Nothing like the Holocaust was done by the Soviet state.
The reason for that is simple: The dissenters were sent off to Siberia where they still had to do work for the state. No reason to kil them. And to most, their fate seemed worse than death, being separated from their families, friends and their entire previous life.
My sister in law's father was given to the USSR by the US at
the end of the war in Europe. Of the 2400 guys in his camp, less
than 300 were alive when he was repatriated in 1950.
No, he wasn't a Nazi, he was drafted in 1943 and made a
flak gunner. He was wounded by a P-38 on June 6, 1944 and
was sent home to recooperate. While he was in Siberia, he was
forced to build bridges for the Siberian highway and railroad.
Sounds to me an awful lot like the Holocaust, YMMV.
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Originally posted by Boroda
So they finally try to get rid of "Russia - the Mother of all Evil" attitude.
It's definetly better then to have a modern history book that has 10 pages about WWII, 8 of them about lame "allied" fighting at North Africa and on some god-forgotten islands in the Pacific, with only 5 lines about Stalingrad.
Yeah! Irked authorities! We have another "fighter with evil totalitarian regime"! Freedom to parrots!
Yes, another modern pop-history stunninghunk who says that USSR had to get into war in 1939 to die for "allied" interests.
What occupation? Did I miss something? They were allowed to join USSR after a legitimate democratic procedure. Or was it better to leave the brave sprat-killers to Hitler?
A new, refreshing view on Katyn tragedy: now it was Russian intelligence!
Especially after Russian General Prosecutor's office supplied documents about Polish prisoners that definelty prove that there were no mass executions.
A smart decision, he'd better send the bloody murderers to the sunny shores of Taimyr.
My verdict: silly rant of a discredited "propaganda warfare" mercenary.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl wooooot!!!! funniest thing I've seen in months.
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Originally posted by Staga
http://www.ukar.org/famine.html
http://www.holodomor.org/
Of course those are just propaganda.
Sovier Union tried to save Ukraine and its people but alas; capitalist forces destroyed all glorious 5 year plans before they were executed (plans; not persons) and thus millions died.
Staga, my family (Mother's side) is Ukrainian, and I dare to say that I now a little more about the subject of "golodomor" (let me transcribe it in Russian way). My Grand-Uncle died from typhus working in starving villages...
JFYI: at the same time millions of people died at Volga region, for the same reason: bad harvest. Noone cares about that because they were Russians, that means "not humans" for the West.
Mass starvation happened in Russian Empire every 3-5 years. Last hunger happened in 1947.
Being a Ukrainian didn't mean being an "opressed minority" in USSR. Just as belonging to any other nation.
"Golodomor" is a tool used by bonehead Ukrainian nationalists to show "evil occupation by evil Soviet regime". Following this logic I can ask if my Grandfather was an evil Ukrainian occupant opressing poor Russians. And if Russia should ask for compensations from Ukraine for "crimes committed by Khruschev".
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
A bunch of us are just plain fed up with Boroda's "expertise" in Sarin, Nuclear Physics, and "rewriting Soviet History".
Karaya
I am off the ignore list? What a shame! :D
My "expertise" in Sarin and Nuclear Physics is limited by standard Soviet civil-defence training in school and college. IMHO it's pretty strange when a person boasts his lack of basic knowledge in vital things, especially in a country that wages "war on terror".
And with that VPHR sarin tubes - it's very bad that your troops can't tell a chemical detection agent ampulas from chemical weapons and don't have anyone who can read Cyrillic or even German.
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Originally posted by Rino
My sister in law's father was given to the USSR by the US at
the end of the war in Europe. Of the 2400 guys in his camp, less
than 300 were alive when he was repatriated in 1950.
I guess the others were slaughtered and eaten without salt by Jewish cossacks.
Or maybe simply sent home before that man.
Originally posted by Rino
No, he wasn't a Nazi, he was drafted in 1943 and made a
flak gunner. He was wounded by a P-38 on June 6, 1944 and
was sent home to recooperate. While he was in Siberia, he was
forced to build bridges for the Siberian highway and railroad.
I wonder why he was given to USSR by the "allies" if he's so innocent. US gave shelter to many nazi criminals, later employed by CIA, why didn't they simply save an innocent drafted man? I have heard enough such stories, sorry.
Originally posted by Rino
Sounds to me an awful lot like the Holocaust, YMMV.
Tell this to the Jews and Slavs who were killed in gas-chambers by millions. Or to a man that I met in a hospital 2 months ago, who was 2 years old when he and his mother were taken to labour camp in Germany, where his mother had to work excavating peat from a swamp without almost any food or shelter. It's always so cruel when hangmen are turned into victims.
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Originally posted by parker00
Great logic!!! :rolleyes:
Welcome to Gixers world !
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Originally posted by Boroda
I wonder why he was given to USSR by the "allies" if he's so innocent. US gave shelter to many nazi criminals, later employed by CIA, why didn't they simply save an innocent drafted man? I have heard enough such stories, sorry.
Because my dear Borada if you had studied real WW2 history, instead of the Commie version, you would know why.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Because my dear Borada if you had studied real WW2 history, instead of the Commie version, you would know why.
I have read enough Western books on WWII, but I don't remember an answer to this question. Maybe you'll be so kind to enlighten me?
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id like to see how different the history books are in the US compaired to say a country like switzerland....
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
id like to see how different the history books are in the US compaired to say a country like switzerland....
It is not so much the books used as the quality of the teacher on the subject. I was fortunate during high school to have a surpurb history teacher from Brown University. Going to the University of Illinois was a similar experience as many of the professors were mentored under Peter Peret, who for history buff's is preeminent authority on military history for the last 40 years (but he's also the biggest salamander you will ever encounter - Ohio State has grown on him.) Books tell the events and how they occured. The teacher's job is to interperate the events and make them relevant to the students who, 99 % of are completely detached from because it has not effected them personally.
An effective teacher bridges that gap.
Wolf
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Originally posted by parker00
How do you know about the Indians, oh yeah because we allow everyone to see and talk about our mistakes so we learn from them. It wasn't a high or proud point of American history but we don't deny it either.
Mistakes? This is how this country was build! Genocide of the locals first and then slavory. Offcorce, once teh country was build, we decided it was a 'mistake' and started critisizing everyone else.
Point is, every country is guilty of similar crimes. Some did not have enough power to comit them but given the oportunity . . . you get the idea. Now, we can only have these arguments if we chose a starting date. For example, I can claim that Greece has not commited any atrosities (that you would know of). Well, it really depends on how far back you want to go in time.
Anyway, get off your big white horses, stop pretending you know everyones history, and remember, no one is better than anyone else. We just did not have the right oportunity yet. (except the Germans, lol. Something about them scares :lol )
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News from Finland:
Russian embassy leased apartments for Russian errr... female bed workers and when they got caught their ambassador contacted the chief of largest Finnish TV/Radio operator and asked that they would think before releasing that news; it might hurt the interests between Finland and Soviet Uni.. err... Russia.
They also replied to the note about Russian aircrafts violating Finnish airspace: They said no incidents like those have happened.
Wolfala; I know You have also connections to Russia but we're living next to them and I think we have pretty good idea how things are handled in Russia.
Same way as they were handled in Soviet Union.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Mistakes? This is how this country was build! Genocide of the locals first and then slavory. Offcorce, once teh country was build, we decided it was a 'mistake' and started critisizing everyone else.
Point is, every country is guilty of similar crimes. Some did not have enough power to comit them but given the oportunity . . . you get the idea. Now, we can only have these arguments if we chose a starting date. For example, I can claim that Greece has not commited any atrosities (that you would know of). Well, it really depends on how far back you want to go in time.
Anyway, get off your big white horses, stop pretending you know everyones history, and remember, no one is better than anyone else. We just did not have the right oportunity yet. (except the Germans, lol. Something about them scares :lol )
when did i say we were better than anyone or that i knew everyone's history? I was just making a point to boroda that he always denies the bad things about russia. I know we have done things wrong but we don't sit out here and deny every one of them. So you know where you put that big white horse of yours????
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Hey, Staga, where is the problem? These , errr... female bed workers are working for Finns, they bring love not war. Believe me, russian ambassador earns not enough to allow that.
Do you have any complaints about service the girls provided?
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lemme guess... crabs, herpes, the scaly heebie-jeebies, bad breath and aids?
Other than that and the barking & scratching complaints.. :aok
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Originally posted by Rino
Sounds to me an awful lot like the Holocaust, YMMV.
Listen, I really hate communism and everything the Soviet Union has done, but, if not the outcome, the methods employed in treating the undesired were different, less...systematic. I don't think I've ever heard of gas chambers in the USSR. The allies were idiotic in turning in so many prisoners to the USSR. I like what I heard about Patton, who was so sure a war was going to start with the USSR he started re-training German POWs.
That being said, I think the Nuremberg trial is one of the biggest farces of last century: Commies prosecuting Nazis
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Originally posted by Vad
Hey, Staga, where is the problem? These , errr... female bed workers are working for Finns, they bring love not war. Believe me, russian ambassador earns not enough to allow that.
Do you have any complaints about service the girls provided?
I have no problems with the girls but how their embassy is trying to tell our news what they should broadcast. They're not in Russia anymore you know. Hell I think our government should kick Russian ambassadeur back to Moscow.
Personally I don't know about the service girls offered; if I own a Ferrari I really can't see a reason why I should rent a Volga for a ride...
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Staga, this new from 1 November 2004 (repeating - half a year ago!):
RUSSIAN TRADE MISSION IN FINLAND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HANGOUTS SCANDAL, RUSSIAN TRADE REPRESENTATIVE SAYS
16:28
HELSINKI, November 1 (RIA Novosti) - The data of the investigation being conducted confirm that the members of the Russian Trade Mission in Finland have nothing to do with the scandal concerning hangouts in Helsinki, Russian Trade Representative in Finland Valery Shlyamin said on Monday.
According to him, the Trade Mission and the Foreign Ministry of the Russian Federation are investigating the incident through the Russian Embassy in Finland.
Valery Shlyamin underscored that the Russian side is bewildered that neither the Finnish police nor the Finnish Foreign Ministry officially addressed the Russian Trade Mission. "We have learned for the first time about the circumstances of the Finnish investigation not from the Finnish authorities, but from the Finnish media," the Trade Representative said.
He also pointed out the impermissibility of the actions of Finnish journalists from the moral and ethical points of view, because the scandalous information with which the Finnish media link the Russian Trade Mission was published before the completion of the investigation and any official conclusions on this score.
"It is very strange that we can be associated with this ugly phenomenon," Valery Shlyamin underscored. "The Trade Mission will be ready to make a final statement for the press when the investigation is finished," he added.
He said that the Trade Mission does rent flats on an absolutely legal basis, However, no lessor, of course, can systematically control the private life of the lessees.
The Trade Representative underscored that the Russian Trade Mission unreservedly condemn the criminal activity connected with the organisation of hangouts and with pandering and is ready to take all the necessary measures to fight this evil.
At the end of October, the Finnish authorities stated that they began investigating into the information that several flats in Helsinki, owned by the Russian Trade Mission, had been turned into hangouts.
A spokesman for the Finnish Interior Ministry told reporters that during this investigation a 41-year-old Russian woman was detained on charges of pandering and organising hangouts in these flats.
"Moscow has been concerned over the information of the Finnish authorities about the incident with the flats of the Russian Trade Mission in Helsinki," the commentary of the information and press department of the Russian Foreign Ministry says.
http://en.rian.ru/onlinenews/20041101/39772428.html
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And want to add.
1. Trade mission is not an embassy.
2. In civilized country it is absolutelly legal to demand do not disclose any information before investigation is finished. Ask your lawyer.
3. We saved your nation during Dry Law in Finland, and you are trying to blame us? :)
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Originally posted by Staga
Personally I don't know about the service girls offered; if I own a Ferrari I really can't see a reason why I should rent a Volga for a ride...
That reminds me, more pics pls.
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Originally posted by Suave
In the year 2005.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20050529/ts_chicagotrib/omittingthepastsdarkerchapters
"Russians don't like sharp criticism of their country's history--it makes them feel humiliated," Ermoltsev said. "Revising history and history books helps them overcome this discomfort."
They're taking lessons from Japan.:p
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Stega,
I don't know which post you were refering to, but irregardless of my position on present day Russia, or the former USSR - I believe I was trying to illustrate education as being far more effective at understanding where the mud slinging contest's origins were birthed.
But maybe that is not for this fourm or general audience. Can't hurt to try ya know?
Wolf
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Americans do not shy away from criticism in their own history books, even episodes like the shameful annexation of the Philipinens in the 1900s.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Americans do not shy away from criticism in their own history books, even episodes like the shameful annexation of the Philipinens in the 1900s.
Spit,
For the most part Amercians are down with having a little bit of discourse. But, as an example of animosity from within, many of the southern states of the US who were a part of the Confederacy during our civil war back in the mid 1800's still fly the confederate flag. The argument has been made several times that it is to honor those who fought for the south, but the counterpoint being that they fought for oppression of the black population and slavery. And many still have engrained the ideas from that time and still harbor the animosity. Our problem has been social stratification through race, ethnicity and social class. The civil rights movement during the 1960s started a change in the right direction, but talking about it, analyzing it and most...
..
Understanding the events took decades.
History is a powerful tool. But the most important thing all of us need to take from history is that it is VERY GOOD at writing cautionary prescriptions for how we should act. Not necessarly how we will act due to expediency and political enviroment.
Wolfala
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Spit,
For the most part Amercians are down with having a little bit of discourse. But, as an example of animosity from within, many of the southern states of the US who were a part of the Confederacy during our civil war back in the mid 1800's still fly the confederate flag. The argument has been made several times that it is to honor those who fought for the south, but the counterpoint being that they fought for oppression of the black population and slavery. And many still have engrained the ideas from that time and still harbor the animosity. Our problem has been social stratification through race, ethnicity and social class. The civil rights movement during the 1960s started a change in the right direction, but talking about it, analyzing it and most...
..
Understanding the events took decades.
History is a powerful tool. But the most important thing all of us need to take from history is that it is VERY GOOD at writing cautionary prescriptions for how we should act. Not necessarly how we will act due to expediency and political enviroment.
Wolfala
Ok, who are you and why are you using Wolfala's logon?
Nice post.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
History is a powerful tool. But the most important thing all of us need to take from history is that it is VERY GOOD at writing cautionary prescriptions for how we should act. Not necessarly how we will act due to expediency and political enviroment.
Wolfala
for the most part, it shows us how we shouldn't act.
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Vad the "rental" moneys were delivered to the embassy and two diplomats (under immunity) were responsible about renting those apartments. One has already left country and I believe another one will follow soon.
btw trade mission is part of Russian embassy at least in here; I've been there.
RUSSIAN TRADE MISSION IN FINLAND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HANGOUTS SCANDAL, RUSSIAN TRADE REPRESENTATIVE SAYS
- They already admitted the apartments were leased to prostitutes.
Vad are you Estonian?
You should know you can't trust anything that Russian government or its representative says.
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Originally posted by parker00
when did i say we were better than anyone or that i knew everyone's history? I was just making a point to boroda that he always denies the bad things about russia. I know we have done things wrong but we don't sit out here and deny every one of them. So you know where you put that big white horse of yours????
My bad. I did not realize this was not about how mach better we are than everyone else :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
Listen, I really hate communism and everything the Soviet Union has done, but, if not the outcome, the methods employed in treating the undesired were different, less...systematic. I don't think I've ever heard of gas chambers in the USSR. The allies were idiotic in turning in so many prisoners to the USSR. I like what I heard about Patton, who was so sure a war was going to start with the USSR he started re-training German POWs.
Isn't it strange that "allies" were "re-training German POWs"? In other words - they armed and employed nazi troops!
Can you notice a difference in attitude? It's what all the topic is about. Imagine your history written in such colours?
About prisoners: I have heard about agreements to repatriate Soviet collaborators, but OTOH "allies" gave asylum to many nazi war criminals.
My Grand-Uncle, who escaped from a German concentration camp, became a commander of an "interned persons camp" in American occupation zone in 44 or 45. Unfortunately I can't ask him for details, he died 3 years ago at the age of 93 :(
The reason for giving up nazi POWs to Soviet side was probably aware that nazis fled to the West to be captured by "allies", who, as you said, were "re-trained" and maybe even left them with their weapons. There must have been some kind of agreement between sides.
Originally posted by spitfiremkv
That being said, I think the Nuremberg trial is one of the biggest farces of last century: Commies prosecuting Nazis
This is an attitude that I hope isn't shared by our authorities, and IMHO it must be fought by all means. Equating Communism with nazism is a hypocritical and immoral thing. The only possible excuse for it is maybe total brainwasing and misinformation. Sorry.
Your last statement is a justification of nazism - a deliberate policy of physical elimination of millions of people by ethnic criterion, aimed on turning whole nations into speechless slaves.
It's sad to see how Western propaganda, using Goebbels's inventions, justifies nazism in fever of anticommunistic and antirussian hysteria.
Now I really sound like good old Pravda from early-80s... :( Probably a proper way to speak to modern McCarthyists.
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Originally posted by parker00
when did i say we were better than anyone or that i knew everyone's history? I was just making a point to boroda that he always denies the bad things about russia. I know we have done things wrong but we don't sit out here and deny every one of them. So you know where you put that big white horse of yours????
I don't deny facts. I deny the interpetation based on the "Russia is the mother of all evil" attitude.
Like Ukrainian famine can be interpreted in two ways:
1) It was one of the last mass-starvations in Russian history, definetly not the largest compared to 1922 or 1906.
2) It was a genocide of Ukrainian people by Evil Stalin.
Second POW is based on the attitude I mentioned, and a "fact that everyone knows" that Stalin's goal always was to kill as many people as he could. If you can tell me any practical reasons for deliberately killing "millions" of Ukrainians (and Russians at Volga who are always forgotten - who cares for untermenschen?) - then please enlighten me.
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LOL Boroda.. quit dancing. Polka & Russians don't mix.
Yup.. we grabbed as many scientists and intel people as we could.. so did your side. Interred troops listing home addresses in the soviet zone of occupation were repatariated to the soviets. Your guys were supposed to repatriate captured troops with western zone home addresses to our side and never did; but that was just one of many early violations your happy mother raping and father stabbing occupation troops committed.
As for retaining 'nazi' troops.. no we didn't re-train the SS. We did however employ some whermacht and luftwaffe troops in Patton's area.. seems the old bastard was correct in assuming who the next enemy was gonna be.
Eat any babies lately?
;)
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Originally posted by Boroda
I
This is an attitude that I hope isn't shared by our authorities, and IMHO it must be fought by all means.
maybe by shooting anyone who doesn't share the views of your authorities?
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Originally posted by Boroda
I don't deny facts. I deny the interpetation based on the "Russia is the mother of all evil" attitude.
Like Ukrainian famine can be interpreted in two ways:
1) It was one of the last mass-starvations in Russian history, definetly not the largest compared to 1922 or 1906.
2) It was a genocide of Ukrainian people by Evil Stalin.
Second POW is based on the attitude I mentioned, and a "fact that everyone knows" that Stalin's goal always was to kill as many people as he could. If you can tell me any practical reasons for deliberately killing "millions" of Ukrainians (and Russians at Volga who are always forgotten - who cares for untermenschen?) - then please enlighten me.
Boroda, my commie conditioned knee-jerk reactionist stalin apologist friend..
Russia is not the mother of all Evils... it's just quite a few of it's governments are all in the Evil family. ;)
Stalin was a mass-murderer that made hitler look like an amatuer. His sanity is just as questionable as hitlers, his methods just as evil. He get's the #1 spot based on quantity of methods.. not quality. Which is fitting.. as it was Unca Joe himself that said "Quantity has a Quality all it's own".
Now, had Unca Joe been a bit less of a parnoid mass murderer and retained his officer corps instead of havin the NKVD plug 'em in the back of the head, he'd a had an army to oppose hitler with in 1940...
If he had not shot most of his civil administrators and academians, possibly his troops would have had rifles instead of shovels and rakes prior to the war.
The russian people suffered horribly under his 'rule'.. and I find it kinda sad that a reasonably intelligent human being could look at this guy's track record and pronounce him a 'hero of the soviet union'. Bode's ill for the rest of the world that he's being restored to the pantheon of 'russian hero's'.
Kruschev was right. The guy was an evil bastard.
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Boroda, I have always wanted to know what do you want to prove?
Ты производишь впечатление неглупого человека, но я не могу понять, зачем тебе это надо? Если ты смотрел (читал) Шварца " Убей Дракона", то ты должен помнить: " Нас всех так учили. Но не все стали первыми учениками!" Так вот они - все первые ученики. И их невозможно переубедить.
Да и не нужно, на мой взгляд.
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Vad, care to share that with us in english?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Vad, care to share that with us in english?
I didn't want to offend anybody but it is not too easy to translate it in English. I will try but I believe you will not understand anyway.
[translation]
Boroda, you don't show an impression of foolish person but I can't understand why do you do that? If you saw (read) Shvarc's (russian writer) "Kill the dragon" you have to remeber the phrase: " We are all were learnt that way but not all of us became the A-grade students". They are all A-grade students, and you can't overpersuade them.
And you don't have to do that, I think.
[/translation]
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I get the gist.. understood.
And thanks!!
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I get the gist.. understood.
You can't.
If you didn't read Shvarc :)
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Here's all the Russian one needs to learn:
Stalin=ciort
Lenin=pizda
Krushcev=curva
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assuming 'a grade student' refers to students the state would consider 'educatable' or 'receptive to propaganda', I think I got it.
It's not a concept the west is unfamiliar with. ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
assuming 'a grade student' refers to students the state would consider 'educatable' or 'receptive to propaganda', I think I got it.
It's not a concept the west is unfamiliar with. ;)
From our point of view it is much more complicated but as the first step it is ok. :)
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everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.
I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that. ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.
I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that. ;)
Yes, you are right, everything is very complicated in Russia. I used to smile every time when west people mention word "truth", especially when they use that word in conjuction with the word " simple".
Enron and Ukos. Sponsorship scandal and bribes in Russian goverment. Forge Iraq WMD and Chechnya. Vietnam and Afganistan. Etc, etc, ect.
Truth wasn't , isn't and will never be simple. Read Jaroslav Gashek, one of the best Czech writer. In one of his novels he wrote one interesting idea - the God will not judge you when you will die. Peter or Pavel will do that but not the God. Because the God knows everything, all you life, all your thoughts, all your fillings. If somebody knows all truth he can't judge.
You try to judge - it means, you don't know the truth!
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Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..
Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.
Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?
Stalin caused the death of Millions of Ukranians. Yes or No?
Stalin imprisoned or executed thousands of Acadmeians. Yes or No?
Stalin was responsible for the murders in Katryn Forrest? Yes or No?
You see, truth IS simple. It's only when you attempt to cloak it in cause and effect reasoning.. 'apologist' excuses; that 'truth' becomes 'complicated'.
Lets try it from OUR perspective.
The American Government implemented a policy of Genocide against American Indians for over 100 years.
True.
The American Government routinely used assination and other illegal means to install and support murdering dictators 'friendly' to US intrests for the last 100 years.
True.
The American Government cannot be trusted to honor treaty obligations based on past performance.
True.
See.. 'Truth'. It ain't hard.. Russia's citizens should give it a shot.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..
Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.
Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?
Yes. And No.
Yes, Stalin executed thousands of high officers of Red Army. But most of them were charged for being part of Trotskiy-Zinoviev block. Do you know who was Trotskiy? BTW, I can add that Trotskiy emigrated from USSR, and was murdered in Mexico by direct Stalin's order.
Trotskiy was Hero of Civil war in Russia. It was he who actually won that war. He was the second person in country after Lenin. It was his idea about "export of revolution". He was responsible for attack on Poland. Even now Red brigades in Europe are staying on Trotskiy's positions. Most of the officers in Red Army considered Trotskiy as their chief and God.
Stalin was very bad guy but he was pragmatic. He clearly understood that it is better to be czar in one country than to fight against the whole world for dream. He had to stop Trotskiy, and remove even shadows of his ideas from the brains of his officers. If he didn't do that Europe was faced the Red Army in 1925 - 1930.
Yes, it was a bloody crime. And a lot of families in Russia lost thier relatives at that times. But even Russains understand that another scenario could be much more worse - total war against whole world for the victory of revolution.
I have to go to bed, but answer for all your other questions is the same: Yes. And no.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I guess the others were slaughtered and eaten without salt by Jewish cossacks.
Or maybe simply sent home before that man.
I wonder why he was given to USSR by the "allies" if he's so innocent. US gave shelter to many nazi criminals, later employed by CIA, why didn't they simply save an innocent drafted man? I have heard enough such stories, sorry.
Tell this to the Jews and Slavs who were killed in gas-chambers by millions. Or to a man that I met in a hospital 2 months ago, who was 2 years old when he and his mother were taken to labour camp in Germany, where his mother had to work excavating peat from a swamp without almost any food or shelter. It's always so cruel when hangmen are turned into victims.
Since you seemingly paint all germans as responsible for all
the crimes committed by a few, why shouldn't I hold all USSR
citizens to the same standard?
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You know, the iron curtain wasn't such a bad thing in the end. I hope they bring that back now that things are reverting to 'normal' down there.
It's better that they stick to thier own territory if they can't accept the real world.
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Western answer to simple question: Yes / No
Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...
:aok
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Originally posted by Staga
Western answer to simple question: Yes / No
Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...
:aok
"The truth is rarely pure and never simple" (c) Oscar Wilde.
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If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...
I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..
it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..
...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.
Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.
No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.
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Originally posted by Vad
Ты производишь впечатление неглупого человека, но я не могу понять, зачем тебе это надо? Если ты смотрел (читал) Шварца " Убей Дракона", то ты должен помнить: " Нас всех так учили. Но не все стали первыми учениками!" Так вот они - все первые ученики. И их невозможно переубедить.
Да и не нужно, на мой взгляд.
А когда враг не сдается......
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...
I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..
it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..
...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.
Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.
No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.
You can't be more wrong, and you are right :)
Russians don't trust and don't like their goverment more than any other nation in the world. And it has always been so. Funny thing: immediately after any election where more than 50% of popuation voted for new goverment polls show that 80% don't like this goverment and don't trust them! I don't understand myself how it could be! You have just elected this new goverment, you voted for them, they didn't do anything wrong yet, just didn't have enough time, but you already don't like them. BTW, russians hated their goverment in 1917 so much that not only overthrew it but executed Czar, his family and several millions others. And put Russia in blood and dark for almost a century. The overthrowing and killing of our goverment is good Russian tradition and national hobby, actually.
But there is something else what I can't explain, and where you are right. Most of the Russians are very forgiving to their previous goverments. We instinctively identify achievements of the nation with ruling person. It's quite natural for Russian to say "Stalin won the war, Peter The Great built St Petersburg, Gorbachev freed East Europe". And we used to try to blanch over, find an excuse even for our tyrants.
Don't ask me why, I don't know. Tradition... :)
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..and contradiction it seems.
Gorbachev freed East Europe
How can he 'free' something that according to Boroda joined SU freewillingly and legal? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
..and contradiction it seems.
How can he 'free' something that according to Boroda joined SU freewillingly and legal? :rolleyes:
I am talking about Hungary, Poland, East Germany, etc.
Soviet republics got independent thanks to Yeltsin.
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Hangtime I happen to know several Russians from years back and they are very reasonable and intelligent people.
I just wish some of those would give another view to Russians in this board; seeing Boroda as a presentative of common Russian is like showing a pic of Michael Jackson and saying it...err.. he's an ordinary American.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Now, had Unca Joe been a bit less of a parnoid mass murderer and retained his officer corps instead of havin the NKVD plug 'em in the back of the head, he'd a had an army to oppose hitler with in 1940...
Hang, it's hard to judge now. Some (I say - at least some) of the "purged" commanders (there was no such thing as "officer corps" in USSR before 1943) were absolutely incompetent Civil war partisan leaders. For example: marshall Bluher, cavalier of the Red Banner Order #1, was executed after during a border conflict with Japan, when he was a supreme commander in Far East, and was deadly drunk during the hostilities.
Marshall Budenniy f-ed up the defence of Leningrad in 1941 and became a commander of partisan forces... He's one of the same generation, brilliant Cossack warrant-officer in WWI (five [!!!] St. George's crosses!), not "purged"...
Originally posted by Hangtime
If he had not shot most of his civil administrators and academians, possibly his troops would have had rifles instead of shovels and rakes prior to the war.
In 1941 Soviet Army had a semi-auto rifle in million quantities, that was easier to produce then 1891/30 bolt-action, it had largest tank forces and aviation...
Problems with weapons were solved by 1942.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Kruschev was right. The guy was an evil bastard.
Mikita was an illiterate peasant. His "persnality cult" report at XX Party congress was only a matter of fighting for power.
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Originally posted by Vad
I am talking about Hungary, Poland, East Germany, etc.
Soviet republics got independent thanks to Yeltsin.
Wrong. Your PEOPLE freed THEMSELVES. Yeltsin could holler in boozonics till yer cows came home, wouldn't have 'freed' your republics.
Wake up, smell the borscht. Your countrymen are responsible for your nations freedom. Yes, a 'leader' can galvanize a people, give them a rally point.. but without the support of the PEOPLE, your nation could not have come to pass.
To look upon your leaders as gods, saints or above the law is the fist step toward giving up your rights and duties as a PEOPLE and giving them to the 'dear leader'. To 'honor' a murderer for 'salvation of your nation' is folly.. and encourages a repetition.
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Originally posted by spitfiremkv
maybe by shooting anyone who doesn't share the views of your authorities?
Well, attitude to history is one of the few things where I support our "beloved party and government". But, as usual, it's only words, they do nothing, and our central television keeps making idiotic series about "noble criminals saving Mother Russia when evil NKVD tries to put them back to jail".
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Originally posted by Vad
I didn't want to offend anybody but it is not too easy to translate it in English. I will try but I believe you will not understand anyway.
[translation]
Boroda, you don't show an impression of foolish person but I can't understand why do you do that? If you saw (read) Shvarc's (russian writer) "Kill the dragon" you have to remeber the phrase: " We are all were learnt that way but not all of us became the A-grade students". They are all A-grade students, and you can't overpersuade them.
And you don't have to do that, I think.
[/translation]
I didn't read that play, and didn't even see the film :(
I try to show people here a different point of view, and some of them really start to think. Persuading anyone on the Internet is next to impossible, but the thinking process can be stimulated.
I also have fun and practice my English.
You are my opponent on Russian WB forum, and I want to again disagree with your "relax and enjoy" position: I don't want to follow the "mainstream" in propaganda if this propaganda means mixing my nation's history with excrements.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
everything is more complicated in Russia... particularly ideas, concepts and in particular 'politics'.
I used to smile every time a russian mentioned 'Pravda'. It translates as 'truth'.. in the west that's a pretty simple concept. But in russia it's a whole lot more complicated than that. ;)
Hang, we already discussed Heinlein's "Pravda means 'Truth'", it's a very funny reading, showing a xenophoby, paranoia and misunderstanding of a very intelligent man and a great writer.
BTW, Vad, I strongly recommend Heinlein's articles about his visit to USSR, you can fing them at Moshkov's library. They are absolutely brilliant! ;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Yah see, yah fall into your own convienient trap..
Answering with Truth is simple. It's 'yes' or 'no'.
Stalin murdered thousands of his officer corps. Yes or No?
No. There were no "officer corps", "thousands murdered" may be an exaggeration (and may be not).
Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin caused the death of Millions of Ukranians. Yes or No?
No. It was "routine" mass starvation, I am 100% sure he did his best to avoid it, but even Bolsheviks can't change the weather.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin imprisoned or executed thousands of Acadmeians. Yes or No?
No. I can remember only a few examples, only one name comes into my mind - Vavilov.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Stalin was responsible for the murders in Katryn Forrest? Yes or No?
AAA hold me seven people!!!!
I DON"T F@#$ING KNOW!!!
Originally posted by Hangtime
You see, truth IS simple. It's only when you attempt to cloak it in cause and effect reasoning.. 'apologist' excuses; that 'truth' becomes 'complicated'.
Truth is never simple. It's simple only in silly propaganda. Sorry. Propaganda is an art of hiding the truth by simplification.
Originally posted by Hangtime
Lets try it from OUR perspective.
The American Government implemented a policy of Genocide against American Indians for over 100 years.
True.
The American Government routinely used assination and other illegal means to install and support murdering dictators 'friendly' to US intrests for the last 100 years.
True.
The American Government cannot be trusted to honor treaty obligations based on past performance.
True.
See.. 'Truth'. It ain't hard.. Russia's citizens should give it a shot.
Hang, my point is that it's impossible to teach history at schools using only the examples you gave above.
I can give you some examples from nearest past that IMHO must be mentioned in history schoolbooks, like the fact that Russian government is responsible for genocide in Chechnya and rise of Chechen terrorism...
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...
I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..
it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..
...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.
Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.
No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.
Hang, you completely misunderstand us.
Western version of our history (constant murder, crime and Russians as a nation of hopeless idiots) became an official point of view since maybe 1987. In fact - people like me are modern "dissidents".
Life in Russia is a constant battle with authorities. Our leaderships main goal since year 988 (I mean baptising of Kiev 1000 years ago) is to make our life worse regardless to the expences. Our own government is our main enemy. "Id there is a person - then there is a reason to put him into jail" is their motto. For example, now I am going home, one hour in a subway, and I am going to buy a can of "screwdriver" (vodka/orange juice). It's a crime to drink in a subway, and I may be arrested, but I'll drink anyway. If I'll be arrested - you can call me a "prisoner of conscience" :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
You are my opponent on Russian WB forum, and I want to again disagree with your "relax and enjoy" position:
Are you sure? What is WB? If you mean warbird I wrote my last post there year ago.
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Sorry I thought you are Vadim Maximenko from Vilnus...
Here (http://forum.wbfree.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27139) is a link to a discussion I meant (in Russian).
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hang, you completely misunderstand us.
Western version of our history (constant murder, crime and Russians as a nation of hopeless idiots) became an official point of view since maybe 1987. In fact - people like me are modern "dissidents".
Life in Russia is a constant battle with authorities. Our leaderships main goal since year 988 (I mean baptising of Kiev 1000 years ago) is to make our life worse regardless to the expences. Our own government is our main enemy. "Id there is a person - then there is a reason to put him into jail" is their motto. For example, now I am going home, one hour in a subway, and I am going to buy a can of "screwdriver" (vodka/orange juice). It's a crime to drink in a subway, and I may be arrested, but I'll drink anyway. If I'll be arrested - you can call me a "prisoner of conscience" :D
Perhaps we can continue to disagree.. without reason? My friend, 'apologist' reasoning for Stalin's pogroms and wholesale murder is assinine.. to put a butcher on a pedestal and rever him as the 'savior of the nation' runs enirely contrary to the statement you made above.
So, what was he? Butcher of his own people, or savior of his people? If you answer again with 'both', and choose to aknowledge only the acts that preserved communisim as your nations polity and disavow or excuse his acts of butchery then your DO have a problem with reality!
Cheers!
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stalin made hitler look like a saint, one would have to suspended all rational to think otherwise.
he cried like a gurl when hitler invaded, nuff said.
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Originally posted by Boroda
We don't hide any unpleasant facts about Russian Empire or USSR too.
Can you give me examples of genocide of millions of people preformed by Russian state?
Sorry about "no genocide at all" statement. I forgot what Ivan IV did to Novgorod, but I bet you never heard about it. Anyway, European "civilized nations" did much worse things to Slavonic people at the very same time.
Boroda, Ivan Grozniy captured Novgorod by military force. Estimated number of Novgorod people KIA and executed is between five and fifteen thousand. No genocide here. Especially if you take into account that the survivors from Novgorod nobility were resettled on Moscovite lands.
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Originally posted by Torque
stalin made hitler look like a saint, one would have to suspended all rational to think otherwise.
he cried like a gurl when hitler invaded, nuff said.
Torque, why do you believe that malicious propaganda about Stalin ?
Just a month ago I read an article in American propaganda leaflet "AM New York" (a "FREE" daily)
where a jerk of Polish descend Alex Storozynski wrote that (quote) ..."Stalin murdered more people than Hitler". And this jerk gives the exact number of these people. And the number given is 40 (forty !?) million.
If you want to become a total zombi, keep on reading such crap. But do not try to spread the news.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Perhaps we can continue to disagree.. without reason? My friend, 'apologist' reasoning for Stalin's pogroms and wholesale murder is assinine.. to put a butcher on a pedestal and rever him as the 'savior of the nation' runs enirely contrary to the statement you made above.
So, what was he? Butcher of his own people, or savior of his people? If you answer again with 'both', and choose to aknowledge only the acts that preserved communisim as your nations polity and disavow or excuse his acts of butchery then your DO have a problem with reality!
Cheers!
Stalin was a great Emperor. He envisaged the deadly threat from the West (or, what is most likely, he just read Hitler's "Mein Kampf") and ordered the total elimination of any opposition to his regime. As the result of Stalins orders, several million people died (I can speak of the number from two to four million of those who perished during 1929-1953).
So, as it appeares, he saved the Soviet people (that is more than one hundred ethnic groups) from the genocide, the official Nazi policy on the occupied "Eastern territories".
Let's crank up the overall numbers (including WWII losses).
Germany lost about 15 million people out of 70 million population during not full 13 years of Hitler's reign, and the USSR lost from 30 to 32 million out of 200 million population during 25 years of Stalin's reign. Even this methodologically wrongful count is "in the favour" of Comrade Stalin.
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lol
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Originally posted by Staga
Western answer to simple question: Yes / No
Russian answer to simple question: Yes, but.../ No, but...
:aok
Staga, your zombied Western "civilization" cracked its pot when it adopted idiotic total dualism.
That's why you can always give a yes-or-no answer to any imaginable question.
BTW, is the grey colour white ? (Yes\No)
Or is the grey colour black ? (Yes\No)
:p :D
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Originally posted by Hangtime
If the common opinion of the russian citizen mirrors our friends Vad and Boroda, then the outlook for the rest of us is kinda scary...
I expect a government to lie. we've learned to view pretty much anything that comes outta a government agency to be self-aggrandizing bullpucky. Westerners (most of 'em I've met) are less likely to believe the 'news' OR the government..
it would seem that the phrase "hi, I work for the government, and I'm here to help' is viewed with the same wry knowing smile everyplace..
...except Russia. Russians would seem to attach some kinda personal significance to negative or positive commentary regarding government bullpucky; explaining it away as something other than what it really is.
Clues for you folks living in Russia.. it's ok to distrust the government. It's ok to question authority. It's ok to villify and reject 'wrongness'.. it should be your duty to hold up the actions of your leaders to harsh examination.. it's ok to say 'it was a very bad thing.. it was evil'.
No 'buts'. Wrong is wrong. If we don't hold our offficals feet to the fire, they'll just think we're rooski's... in the negative sense.
Hangtime, your post is a bad joke to any Russian. Because for the last hundred years the Russians have not trusted their government.
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To sum up: USSR educational system was prolly the best in the world and it was free. If Russia reverts to USSR standards, I am all for this.
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To sum it up, the legacy of USSR time brainwashing still lives strong and reverting back to that will ensure that the russian population will live in thier distorted reality a few more generations.
I still can't figure out how they don't see the heinous mess thier country is today when they defend the past regimes.
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Originally posted by Staga
Hangtime I happen to know several Russians from years back and they are very reasonable and intelligent people.
I just wish some of those would give another view to Russians in this board; seeing Boroda as a presentative of common Russian is like showing a pic of Michael Jackson and saying it...err.. he's an ordinary American.
I am a product of the Soviet higher education system (which was very good as proven by millions of Soviet immigrants). So I will allow myself to act like a well-trained ape, and assure you that Boroda is the 100% Russian commoner voicing the opinion of the masses.
The problem is lodged between your lobes which were genetically disconnected from each other in order to keep you from non-belief in the writ word of Western propaganda. :p
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
To sum it up, the legacy of USSR time brainwashing still lives strong and reverting back to that will ensure that the russian population will live in thier distorted reality a few more generations.
I still can't figure out how they don't see the heinous mess thier country is today when they defend the past regimes.
How is it distorted ?
Is it distorted because the Russians stick to the number of from two to four millions people killed on Stalin's orders instead of adopting the imbecile number of forty million as reported by an American daily ?
Is it distorted because the Russian people are still proud that their fathers and grandfathers indeed liberated Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia without grabbing foreign lands ?
Is it distorted because many Russians now (after the new facts have recently become known) tend to distrust the "Khrushchev file" on Katyn excecution of Polish military officers and combatants ?
Is it distorted because some Russians know for sure that the doomed Korean airliner "KAL007" was a part of the US intelligence operation ?
And the list keeps going on and on.
And just for you I can add that defending true facts and defending the past regimes is not the same thing.
And again I repeat that the vulgar perception of the notion of truth depends mostly on the Western culture of total dualistic thinking when there are no half-tones, and everything and everybody have to be either white or black.
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KAL was not the only civillian airliner the soviets shot down in history, don't stick to that.
You've been fed outright lies about most things that happened in your past, as have your fathers and grandfathers. I'm sure North Koreans believe thier country is paradise on earth and all outsiders just want to eat thier babies alive. So do thier fathers and grandfathers.
Why? Systematic lies and brainwashing.
Now, I can understand NK at its current position. But how come russians, who have been able to step out from that dump for years now, facing the completely different history writing of the entire planet (SU excluding naturally) can still continue trust the soviet sources.
They've been proven fabricated so many times and in so many different instances (even in common civil trade) that it's not even funny anymore.
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Originally posted by genozaur
I am a product of the Soviet higher education system
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is the gray color white? no. Is the gray color black? no. is the gray color gray? yes. Does the gray color have white in it? yes.
yes or no works fine.
lazs
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All shades of gray consist of a greater amount of either black or white.
And I will add, both black and white are shades of gray.
Truth is a binary thing, it's never maybe.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Boroda, Ivan Grozniy captured Novgorod by military force. Estimated number of Novgorod people KIA and executed is between five and fifteen thousand. No genocide here. Especially if you take into account that the survivors from Novgorod nobility were resettled on Moscovite lands.
Гы. А еще по-пьяни сходили и прибили щиты на ворота Константинополя, попутно отпиздив подвернувшийся под руку Римский Легион.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
KAL was not the only civillian airliner the soviets shot down in history, don't stick to that.
Yes. There was another one. Wich was forced to land on ice. As you know (or don't know) crew and passengers were returned in few days.
Do we need to count, how many passenger jets was shoot down by "Empire of Goodness"? Or you can tell this without help from the international community?
You've been fed outright lies about most things that happened in your past, as have your fathers and grandfathers. I'm sure North Koreans believe thier country is paradise on earth and all outsiders just want to eat thier babies alive. So do thier fathers and grandfathers.
Why? Systematic lies and brainwashing.
You really think? I can tell you - you are wrong. There wasn't lie, just some facts weren't published.
Can you count, how many times, your "truly" mass-media published lie wich was de-facto a fuse for reaction of all society?
Now, I can understand NK at its current position. But how come russians, who have been able to step out from that dump for years now, facing the completely different history writing of the entire planet (SU excluding naturally) can still continue trust the soviet sources.
They've been proven fabricated so many times and in so many different instances (even in common civil trade) that it's not even funny anymore.
If you think, that USA is a country with predicted history, then you are just a little idiot.
Just wait a little time, untill your CIA and FBI archives will become open for public. You'll find very interesting things about KAL007 and Lebanon, about Pakistan and Bin Laden. And about yourself. But don't be surprised.
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Rationalization upon rationalization; a complete suspension of logic. Religion fascinates me, a devotion beyond reason.
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Yes. There was another one. Wich was forced to land on ice. As you know (or don't know) crew and passengers were returned in few days.
Like the swedish DC-3 on international airspace? Or the finnish DC-3 "Kaleva" en route from estonia to finland? Just a couple scandinavian examples.
And no survivors from those either.
No.. wait I get it. They're all spy planes full of civillians, sent there only to tarnish good soviet folks name. Right?
Please tell.
And about yourself. But don't be surprised.
Huh I didn't know they keep track of all europeans too. I must start to watch my phonecalls apparently.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Like the swedish DC-3 on international airspace? Or the finnish DC-3 "Kaleva" en route from estonia to finland? Just a couple scandinavian examples.
And no survivors from those either.
No.. wait I get it. They're all spy planes full of civillians, sent there only to tarnish good soviet folks name. Right?
Please tell.
Never heard about this. But I will check. And..... You didn't answer. How many planes were shoot down by "Empire of goodness"? Or you need help here?
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How many planes were shoot down by "Empire of goodness"? Or you need help here?
The US is not perfect by any means. Yes, they've shot down planes by accident also. Perhaps even on purpose, who knows.
I've visited soviet russia and ex-soviet russia so I have a pretty good view of the country.
Poor. Hostile. Corrupt. Polluted. Full or organized crime. A paradise huh?
If Stalin really saved your country, the saviour was for many, worse than death.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Like the swedish DC-3 on international airspace? Or the finnish DC-3 "Kaleva" en route from estonia to finland? Just a couple scandinavian examples.
Ju-52 "Kaleva" (OH-ALL) shot down at June 14, 1940. Found at 2004. Also was found Swedish DC-3 reconnaissance aircraft, shot down in 1952 over the Baltic Sea.
Are you about that?
P.S. Finland didn't complain USSR in Kaleva's destruction. Never.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The US is not perfect by any means. Yes, they've shot down planes by accident also. Perhaps even on purpose, who knows.
I've visited soviet russia and ex-soviet russia so I have a pretty good view of the country.
Poor. Hostile. Corrupt. Polluted. Full or organized crime. A paradise huh?
If Stalin really saved your country, the saviour was for many, worse than death.
This guy is a perfect example of a poor, hostile, pulluted mind. He makes me smile sometimes tho, which is a good thing.
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P.S. Finland didn't complain USSR in Kaleva's destruction. Never.
Maybe that had something to do with a lost war in between? Lol.
Nevertheless soviet fighters shot down a civillian aircraft once again on international airspace.
To Despair: If you're from russia, you picked a telling name for yourself. :)
I'm not quite sure if I regret visiting the country, afterall it was an experience to remember. Hardly fondly though. :D
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06/20/1940
LOCATION: Near Ouistreham, France
CARRIER: Air France FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Dewoitine D-338
REGISTRY: F-ARTD S/N: 22
ABOARD: FATAL: GROUND:
DETAILS: Inadvertently shot down by French anti-aircraft fire.
02/15/1942
LOCATION: English Channel, near Plymouth, England
CARRIER: British Overseas Airways FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Consolidated Liberator
REGISTRY: G-AGDR S/N: 9
ABOARD: 9 FATAL: 9 GROUND:
DETAILS: Shot down in error.
08/13/1942
LOCATION: Algiers, Algeria
CARRIER: Air France FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Liore et Olivier H-246 Air Boat
REGISTRY: F-AREJ S/N: 403
ABOARD: FATAL: 4 GROUND:
DETAILS: Attacked by Royal Air Force fighters. Crashed in the
water while attempting to land.
12/15/1944
LOCATION: English Channel
CARRIER: Military FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: UC-64A Noorduyn Norseman
REGISTRY: 44-70285 S/N:
ABOARD: 2 FATAL: 2 GROUND:
DETAILS: Disappeared over the English Channel en route from
Bedford England to Paris, France. Band leader and musician Glenn
Miller, 40, killed. It has been theorized the plane may have been hit
by bombs being jettisoned over the English Channel by RAF
bombers on their way home from an unsuccessful raid.
07/30/1949
LOCATION: Chesterfield, New Jersey
CARRIER: Eastern Air Lines / USN FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-3 / F-6F
REGISTRY: N19963/BU72887 S/N: 2260 / ?
ABOARD: 17 FATAL: 17 GROUND:
DETAILS: Midair collision with a US Navy F-6F. The F-6F was
buzzing a small private aircraft which was cruising below the DC-3.
The F-6F had pulled up into a climbing turn and collided with the
DC-3. Sixteen killed on the DC-3, one on the F-6F. Reckless
conduct of the Navy pilot in performing aerobatic maneuvers on a
civil airway.
11/01/1949
LOCATION: Arlington, Virginia
CARRIER: Eastern Air Lines / US Air Force FLIGHT: 537
AIRCRAFT: Douglas C-54B / USAF P-38
REGISTRY: N88727/NX26927 S/N: 18365 /
ABOARD: 56 FATAL: 55 GROUND:
DETAILS: Midair collision. The pilot of the P-38 survived and was
accused of causing the accident by executing a straight in approach
without proper clearance. He was later tried and cleared of the
charges. George Bates, U.S. Representative from Massachuttes and
Michael Kennedy, U.S. Representative from New York killed.
07/27/1953 12:30
LOCATION: Near Kanggye, North Korea
CARRIER: Aeroflot FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Ilyushin IL-12
REGISTRY: S/N:
ABOARD: 21 FATAL: 21 GROUND:
DETAILS: Shot down by a U.S. Air Force F-86 jet fighter towards
the end of the Korean War. The Russian government claimed the
plane was over Chinese air space.
04/21/1958 08:30
LOCATION: Near Sloan, 10 miles SW of Las Vegas, Nevada
CARRIER: United Air Lines / U.S. Air Force FLIGHT: 736
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-7 / F-100F
REGISTRY: N6328C/56-3755 S/N: 45142 /
ABOARD: 47 FATAL: 47 GROUND:
DETAILS: The DC-7 was en route from Los Angeles to Denver
flying at 21,000 ft. The military jet was on a training mission being
conducted under VFR. The fighter initiated an evasive maneuver
just prior to colliding with the airliner. The F-100 pilot ejected
safely. All forty-seven aboard the DC-7 were killed. Inability of
both aircraft flying under VFR conditions to see and avoid each
other.
05/20/1958 11:29
LOCATION: Brunswick, Maryland
CARRIER: Capital Airlines / Air National Guard FLIGHT: 300
AIRCRAFT: Vickers Viscount 745D / T-33A
REGISTRY: N7410/53-5966 S/N: 108
ABOARD: 13 FATAL: 12 GROUND:
DETAILS: Midair collision at 8,000 ft. four miles ENE of
Brunswick. Failure of the T-33A pilot to exercise a proper see and
avoid procedure to avoid other traffic. One aboard the T-33 ejected
safely, all aboard the Viscount were killed.
02/25/1960 13:07
LOCATION: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
CARRIER: REAL / U.S. Navy FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-3 / USN R-6D
REGISTRY: PP-AXD/131582 S/N: 13326 / 43685-307
ABOARD: 64 FATAL: 61 GROUND:
DETAILS: Midair collision between a DC-3 and a US Navy R-6D.
The pilot of the USN plane disobeyed instructions transmitted by Rio
Approach Control. The Navy disagreed and placed no blame on
either pilot.
09/20/1969 c 16:00
LOCATION: Near Hoi An, Vietnam
CARRIER: Air Vietnam (South Vietnam) FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-4 / USAF F-4E
REGISTRY: XV-NUG S/N: 10860
ABOARD: 77 FATAL: 75 GROUND: 2
DETAILS: Midair collision. The F-4E landed safely. The DC-4
crashed killing all seventy-five aboard and two on the ground.
Misconstrued instruction on landing by the DC-4.
06/06/1971 18:11
LOCATION: Near Duarte, California
CARRIER: Hughes Airwest / US Marine Air Corps FLIGHT:
706
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-9-31 / F4-B
REGISTRY: N9345/151458 S/N: 47441 /
ABOARD: 51 FATAL: 50 GROUND:
DETAILS: The DC-9 was climbing to FL 330 under radar control of
the LA ARTCC and the F4-B was en route to El Toro under VFR.
Visibility was good with no clouds. The collision took place at
15,500 feet. One of two killed on the F4. Forty-nine killed aboard
the DC-9. Failure of both crews to see and avoid each other and an
inoperable transponder on the F4.
02/11/1972 13:20
LOCATION: Near Vientiane, Laos
CARRIER: Royal Air Lao FLIGHT:
AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-4
REGISTRY: XW-TDE S/N: 43126
ABOARD: 23 FATAL: 23 GROUND:
DETAILS: Shot down while flying at 10,000 feet.
07/03/1988 10:55
LOCATION: Persian Gulf
CARRIER: Iran Air FLIGHT: 655
AIRCRAFT: Airbus A300B2-202
REGISTRY: EP-IBU S/N: 186
ABOARD: 290 FATAL: 290 GROUND:
DETAILS: Shot down by the U.S. Navy vessel U.S.S. Vincennes
with a surface-to-air missile.
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Not a propaganda. Just facts. Civilian planes shooted down or destructed in midair by USAF and foreigners.
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Бля, как перевести обращение "Мой дорогой недалёкий друг!"... :confused:
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
To sum it up, the legacy of USSR time brainwashing still lives strong and reverting back to that will ensure that the russian population will live in thier distorted reality a few more generations.
Legacy of USSR time brainwashing? Compared with a huge wave (tsunami!) of **** poured on us according to "Western version of truth" it's not brainwashing at all.
Look at the subject of a discussion: another "prisoner of unconsciousness" screams that evil regime banned his "history" book that repeats Western "truth" hallucinations and tells young Russians that they are evil and their best choice is to kill themselves.
I don't want to live in the same "reality" with you. Sorry.
Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I still can't figure out how they don't see the heinous mess thier country is today when they defend the past regimes.
I don't defend regimes. I defend my country and it's glorious history.
Why don't US history books focus on genocide of Indians? Then why should we focus on deprotation of Chechens and Crimean Tatars, where Evil Communist Regime (tm) showed humanism unknown to people in the West who keep on teaching us what to do?...
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LOL
Check out Estel's list of american crimes against civilian aircraft! Too funny.
This is almost as funny as when you commies were arguing that soviets invented the airplane.
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Originally posted by genozaur
Staga, your zombied Western "civilization" cracked its pot when it adopted idiotic total dualism.
That's why you can always give a yes-or-no answer to any imaginable question.
BTW, is the grey colour white ? (Yes\No)
Or is the grey colour black ? (Yes\No)
:p :D
It's called "Manichaean heresy" :D
Look, we are not a part of the "brave new world" of Western Christianity. It's one of the reasons for a hatered that's 1000 years old...
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Originally posted by Suave
LOL
Check out Estel's list of american crimes against civilian aircraft! Too funny.
This is almost as funny as when you commies were arguing that soviets invented the airplane.
What's so funny? As far as I understand - it's from ICAO official documents...
The problem is that West still believes that all crimes in XX century were committed by "red side", while the number of their own victims is simply too big to fit into an average imagination.
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Estel; Looks like you cant make the difference between shooting down a civilian passenger by accidentally or by intentionally.
Typical Russian behaviour.
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Originally posted by Staga
Estel; Looks like you cant make the difference between shooting down a civilian passenger by accidentally or by intentionally.
Typical Russian behaviour.
I can. An Aeroflot and Iran Air was shot not accidentally. In other cases there were rules violations by USAF or NG pilots. Or maybe you think, that violating the rules, i.e. flight rules is not a crime?
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Originally posted by Estel
I can. An Aeroflot and Iran Air was shot not accidentally.
No, Staga is right. You can't.
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Originally posted by Suave
No, Staga is right. You can't.
Ok, explain. But only in facts.
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Originally posted by Estel
Ok, explain. But only in facts.
He means it's OK when Fighters for Peace and Democracy shoot down a civilian plane in international airspace only because the ship commander pissed his pants, but Evil Communist Regime doesn't have a right to shoot down an enemy recon plane that doesn't reply to signals and goes over vital defence objects for hours.
This Manichaean view includes that whatever they do is OK, and whatever we do is always eeeevil.
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The very fact that you listed accidental COLLISIONS on that desperate list tells a lot.
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Compared with a huge wave (tsunami!) of **** poured on us according to "Western version of truth" it's not brainwashing at all.
Yeah its your version against rest of the planet.
Go study in NK it fits your style. :D
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The very fact that you listed accidental COLLISIONS on that desperate list tells a lot.
As I said before, all of that collisions was a result of rules violations by USAF or NG pilots. If you don't know, I'll tell you, that rules violation wich become a reason of death is a crime.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Look, we are not a part of the "brave new world" of Western Christianity. It's one of the reasons for a hatered that's 1000 years old... [/B]
Is this some obscure veiled religious reference. Of what hatred do you speak of? Just asking.
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Originally posted by JAGED
Is this some obscure veiled religious reference. Of what hatred do you speak of? Just asking.
I mean Western "churches" hating Eastern Christians more then Moslims for example. I mean "crusades" in Eastern Europe and overall attitude to Orthodox nations. Ever heard of Vlad Ţepeş? It's how Western propaganda works.
For Manichaeism - check this please:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
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Originally posted by Despair
To sum up: USSR educational system was prolly the best in the world and it was free. If Russia reverts to USSR standards, I am all for this.
(ehh kinda off-topic)
:aok Yep, under USSR's ciriculum, they produced THE most talented engineers, and scientists... tons of them! (psst discount history and government class:D)
Btw it IS the Soviet education that forced us Yanks to start a crash program and wire more $$$ to schools, ect.
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Estel; if you can understand the difference between shooting down a civilian aircraft because you thought it was military one and performing an attack and shooting down an civilian aircraft knowing well it's civilian passengerplane carrying innocent travellers...
Well You truly are hard core communist and a "hero" of soviet union; here's a medal for you.
(http://www.collectrussia.com/images/o/874.jpg)
Congratulations.
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Stega,
That is very low brow and disrespectful.
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Oh no disrespecting the stalinists!
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Disrespectful? Well that was kinda the idea behind that post.
Nobody who's defending the crimes Soviet Union and its communist regime did won't get anything else from me.
In my books they are just like revisionists and neo-nazies denying holocaust never happened; they all should be put in camps and gulags and lock the gates forever.
Don't like it? Not really my problem.
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Originally posted by Staga
Disrespectful? Well that was kinda the idea behind that post.
Nobody who's defending the crimes Soviet Union and its communist regime did won't get anything else from me.
In my books they are just like revisionists and neo-nazies denying holocaust never happened; they all should be put in camps and gulags and lock the gates forever.
Don't like it? Not really my problem.
Werd
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even if Germany lost WW2, the joke still was (and always will be) on the Russian people. That is because the Germans (smart mother****ers) figured that Lenin would cause the Tsarist Empire to collapse thus ending Russia's contribution to the First World War (which is what actually happened). I think Vladimir was at the time living in Germany, so they put him on a train and sent him straight to Russia. Thus started the revolution, and in the end the Russian people suffered cruel dictatorships and mass exterminations for a lot longer than Germans ever did in the past century.
The USSR is basically another German invention. :rofl
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Originally posted by Boroda
I mean Western "churches" hating Eastern Christians more then Moslims for example. I mean "crusades" in Eastern Europe and overall attitude to Orthodox nations. Ever heard of Vlad Ţepeş? It's how Western propaganda works.
What is that about ? Never heard of western churches 'hating' eastern churches, much less 'hating them more than moslims'.
:confused:
I do know of a serb christian making common cause with american & european christians on an islamic board. No strife there.
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About the Swedish DC-3.
It was finally found 2003 and recovered from the water spring 2004. Big stuff locally. The 1952 shoot down of the DC-3 was a defining event for swedens attitude towards Soviet. Not that many had hankering for communism before ...
It did carry american equipment and was gathering SIGINT on USSR radar stations with intent to share info with the americans. No civilians on board.
The swedish government states it was cruising north - south on neutral waters.
The wreck being recovered east of 'Gotska Sandцn' supports the swedish government on that point (they did deny for decades it was an intelligence mission claiming instead it was a 'training' mission).
It went down rapidly after getting attacked (reported home on radio, no survivors) so it didn't have time to get far before splashing.
Here's a map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/balticstates.jpg
'Gotska Sandon' is the little island due north of Gotland.
And btw russkies, thank you very much for shooting down the rescue Catalina as well.
I'm no expert on these matters but I doubt very much sweden would have sent a plane into USSR air space, they simply feared the Soviet Union to much to make unneccesary provocations.
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You Russian guys have no idea of how strange you views come across. Look we all like paint our country in a good light. But how would you feel if a bunch of Germans came on and claimed Hitler was only trying to protect the world from Bolshevism? Some do in fact. The Japanese have made a big effort to do much the same.
There is a big difference between Stalin and Hitler and the Japanese. Most of his repression was against his own people. You should at least recognise that. It is not slur on Russia. It is a slur on Stalin and whole Bolshevik idea. In my history in school I was told that Russia was not the ideal country for Communism. Not enough industry at the time. Germany was the ideal candidate. It went in another direction in the end.
Stalin was a tyrant. The political system he presided over was brutal and repressive. If you can't accept that or try to play it down because you feel it embarrasses Russia. Then you need to modify your views. The regime shares the guilt not the country or it's people. The only way you can avoid a similar situation in the future is to know what went wrong with your history and try not to repeat it. It can happen again. The countries and citizens of the Soviet Union were the victims. The Russian people themselves were victims of Stalin who wasn't even Russian.
One other point, I really find it surprising that someone living in New York, Russian or not still equates Western propaganda with Soviet propaganda.
Remember Genozaur you are quite free to produce your own propaganda leaflet refuting the Pole's views on Stalin. Try that in the old Soviet Union.
Interesting too, that the old resentment against the Poles is still festering. The feeling is mutual I assure you, based on those I've met.
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На какой хуй с этими блядями надо нервы ебать так? Паслть их всех в сраку вез фонарика….и хуй с этим!
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Originally posted by scout
About the Swedish DC-3.
Hm. I have heard that a few years ago there was a serious scandal in Swedish media about Swedish armed forces and civilian organisations working on CIA missions against USSR...
WTG, "neutros".
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Swedes have been like that for decades... nothing new.
If they'd be neutral for real, they would have kept distance to a few things in the past.
However still doesn't make any it any more right to down their planes over international waters, let alone the rescuers.
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Originally posted by Russian
На какой хуй с этими блядями надо нервы ебать так? Паслть их всех в сраку вез фонарика….и хуй с этим!
А кто нервы-то трепет? Мне, например, интересно. Я про такой животный антисоветизм только в газетах читал, в детстве. Вот так близко сталкиваться никогда не приходилось. По-моему, даже любопытно.
Ребята настолько одурманены, что потеряли даже зачатки способностей логически мыслить. Они признают, что Сталин если и совершал преступления, то против своего собственного народа, но при этом ненавидят его больше Гитлера. Почему? -"потому чо так учили".
Маразм крепчает!
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I see Stalin's defenders are once again putting on their comedy show.
I particularly liked the one where completely accidental mid-air collisions are morphed into something more heinous than deliberately shooting down civilian airliners.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Toad
I see Stalin's defenders are once again putting on their comedy show.
I particularly liked the one where completely accidental mid-air collisions are morphed into something more heinous than deliberately shooting down civilian airliners.
:rofl
Comedy? Hm. Shortly after the war, Yak interceptor violated all rules and made a head-on collision with DC-3 over Berlin while making aerobatics. All western mass-media claimed USSR in "war crime". I do not debate. Really, it was crime. But if it is crime for us, it should be the same for you. There is no place for double standarts in understanding. Thus because I'v to put all cases of midair where military pilots were guilty. I didn't take all other when their guilty wasn't proved.
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Originally posted by Estel
Comedy? Hm. Shortly after the war, Yak interceptor violated all rules and made a head-on collision with DC-3 over Berlin while making aerobatics. All western mass-media claimed USSR in "war crime". I do not debate. Really, it was crime. But if it is crime for us, it should be the same for you. There is no place for double standarts in understanding. Thus because I'v to put all cases of midair where military pilots were guilty. I didn't take all other when their guilty wasn't proved.
Nice spin you put on that Estel. The Yaks were deliberately buzzing the Dak. This was a typical commie tactic.
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If the Yak was unaware of the DC-3, that incident was just an unfortunate accident. There's no "war crime" there. Possibly a civil violation, of course, the sort usually handled by lawyers and remuneration.
OTOH, compare and contrast to KAL 902 and KAL 007... just to name two of many.
Or the Canadair Limited CL-44 transport, registration number LV-JTN rammed by Kulyapin.
Or the unarmed Iranian helicopter downed when it strayed across the border near Ashkhabad in foggy weather on June 21, 1978.
I could go on, but the difference is quite obvious to any open minded person.
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Originally posted by Toad
OTOH, compare and contrast to KAL 902 and KAL 007... just to name two of many.
KAL 902. April 20-th 1978. At 2119 crossed the USSR border and began to intrude the Soviet territory. The plane was visually (as it was possible in the dark) identified as 707/RC-135 type. After few attempts to contact the crew via radio or visually it was clear that jet crew don't respond and denying commands. And at 2142 capt. Alexander Bosov (Su-15TM, 365-th IAP, home base Afrikanda) shot R-60 into the outer left engine. After that jet began descend and slowed the speed. Few minutes after, Bosov lost visual contact and was ordered to return to the base. At that moment 902 was 23 minutes flying into the Soviet airspace.
Approx. at 2250 capt. Anatoly Kerefov (Su-15TM, 265-th IAP, home base Poduzhemye) established visual contact with jet at altitude 200m. And jet crew began to maneuvre (left and right turns from 270 to 360 degrees). After signalling Kerefov reported that jet crew denying commands (follow me and etc.). At 2305 he was ordered to force jet to make landing outside of the airport. It was done and jet landed onto iced Kolpiyarve lake at approx. 2310.
2 of 110 passengers were killed due to R-60 blast and 13 injured. All injured and all kids from the plane were evacuated with helicopters into Kemy town hospital. After that all others were delivered into the garrison officers block on the trucks.
At April 23-d 95 passengers have been transferred to PanAmerican at Murmansk to bring them to Helsinki.
The crew hasn't been condemned in connection with that has completely recognized the fault.
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Originally posted by Vad
А кто нервы-то трепет? Мне, например, интересно. Я про такой животный антисоветизм только в газетах читал, в детстве. Вот так близко сталкиваться никогда не приходилось. По-моему, даже любопытно.
Ребята настолько одурманены, что потеряли даже зачатки способностей логически мыслить. Они признают, что Сталин если и совершал преступления, то против своего собственного народа, но при этом ненавидят его больше Гитлера. Почему? -"потому чо так учили".
Маразм крепчает!
Хорошо загнул.
Давно закралась мысль, что по их мнению - ежели они не станут тут гнать эту пургу, а напишут то что кумекают сами - за ними прийут из фебеэр, или там из комиссии по расследованию антикокосовой деятельности, как она там называется сейчас, хоумлесс дефенс? :D
Я кажется рассказывал как меня в крайний раз банили на АГВ. Там просто пришли специяльно-обученные люди к хозяину, и сказали недвусмысленно чтобы он меня отправил до Бобруйска.
If lifting the "iron curtain" means adopting "internationally-approved" view on our history - then, can I please kindly ask to put it back? We don't get any advantages from being "open", and this openness is one-way only, so - who cares?
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
The very fact that you listed accidental COLLISIONS on that desperate list tells a lot.
DATE: 11/01/1949
LOCATION: Arlington, Virginia
CARRIER: Eastern Air Lines / US Air Force FLIGHT: 537
AIRCRAFT: Douglas C-54B / USAF P-38
REGISTRY: N88727/NX26927 S/N: 18365 ABOARD: 56 FATAL: 55 GROUND
DETAILS: Midair collision. The pilot of the P-38 survived and was accused of causing the accident by executing a straight in approach without proper clearance. He was later tried and cleared of the charges.
George Bates, U.S. Representative from Massachuttes and Michael Kennedy, U.S. Representative from New York killed.[end of quote]
You call the killing off of the Kennedy clan members "accidental" ?
Too many "accidental" deaths.
Especially suspicious looks the above accident:
the USAF P-38 plane is executing a straight in approach, but the pilot of this P-38 miraculously survives the midair collision. What's the P-38 pilot's name ? "Titanium Eagle" ?
:rolleyes:
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Ah, now we have a suicide P-38 pilot involved in a clandestine plot to kill the Kennedys?
These guys are the absolute BEST EVAR!
As for KAL 902, recorded intercepts show the fighter pilot identified the aircraft as a civilian airliner.
Old news though, no point in rehashing. The Stalinists can't even admit the murder of Poles at Katyn and will never admit they shot down civilians knowing they were shooting at civilian aircraft.
As I said in a similar thread, it's just a good thing they freely post like this so that the rest of the world understands what they're dealing with.
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There's an unexpected strange problem with my text editing. So I repeat the above question.
George Bates, U.S. Representative from Massachuttes and Michael Kennedy, U.S. Representative from New York killed.[end of quote]
You call the killing off of the Kennedy clan members "accidental" ? Too many "accidental" deaths. Especially suspicious looks the above accident: the USAF P-38 plane is executing a straight in approach, but the pilot of this P-38 miraculously survives the midair collision. What's the P-38 pilot's name ? "Titanium Eagle" ?
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Remember not every Russian is like these; most of them are very intelligent people.
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Perhaps, Staga. You'd think there'd be at least one Russian saying these guys are not the norm though. But there isn't. Maybe we got a bad sample.
Genozaur, it was a top secret P-38 built to enable the pilot to survive head-on collisions with much, much larger aircraft. We still keep this technology secret. We learned it from aliens; one of their UFO craft later crashed out at Roswell. (Well, actually we rammed that one with a P-38 too.)
Beyond that your Kennedy was apparently not one of the KENNEDYS. He's not listed with descendants of Joseph P. and Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy. But at least you tried, eh?
Wait... maybe aliens ARTIFICIALLY INSEMINATED ROSE KENNEDY!
KENNEDY, Michael Joseph, a Representative from New York; born in New York City October 25, 1897; attended the Sacred Heart Parochial School, New York City; hotel clerk 1914-1921; clerk of the New York City Board of Elections 1921-1923; served as marshal of the city of New York 1923-1938; became engaged in the insurance business in 1939; elected as a Democrat to the Seventy-sixth and Seventy-seventh Congresses (January 3, 1939-January 3, 1943); was not a candidate for renomination in 1942; resumed the insurance business in New York City; was killed in an airplane accident at the Washington (D.C.) National Airport on November 1, 1949; interment in Gate of Heaven Cemetery, Hawthorne, N.Y.
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Originally posted by Toad
Ah, now we have a suicide P-38 pilot involved in a clandestine plot to kill the Kennedys?
These guys are the absolute BEST EVAR!
As for KAL 902, recorded intercepts show the fighter pilot identified the aircraft as a civilian airliner.
Old news though, no point in rehashing. The Stalinists can't even admit the murder of Poles at Katyn and will never admit they shot down civilians knowing they were shooting at civilian aircraft.
As I said in a similar thread, it's just a good thing they freely post like this so that the rest of the world understands what they're dealing with.
What plot ?
Kennedy clan members are being killed off on a regular basis as soon as they approach the corridors of power.
That's all. There's no plot in it. Just the special treatment.
:rolleyes:
And calling me a "Stalinist" ??? :confused: :mad: :D
Sir, your evaluation of my position is
an ansult to me and all of my Don Cossack-Ukrainian-Celtic-Latvian-Severin family.
:p
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Michael J. Kennedy was not one of the Joseph P. Kennedy line.
There's a TON of Kennedys in America, some in politics. You think the CIA kills them because of their name.
Don't like Stalinist? How about "lunatic"? "Idiot"?
You certainly seem to come from an alternate, parallel dimension where everything is exactly the same only completely different.
Maybe that's just the USSR though...........
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Originally posted by Fishu
Swedes have been like that for decades... nothing new.
If they'd be neutral for real, they would have kept distance to a few things in the past.
I am reading Vaino Tanner's "Winter War" now, so I think I understand your feelings better now ;)
Originally posted by Fishu
However still doesn't make any it any more right to down their planes over international waters, let alone the rescuers.
Do you think that shooting a recon plane is worse then bombing a neutral country's airfield in perfect weather, "accidentally" invading Soviet airspace? I bet Toad will say now that Soviet airfield at Sukhaya Rechka was in international airspace! :D I am writing now a letter to US Congress, demanding this episode to be included into every US history school book immediately! :lol
I also demand that every US history schoolbook should describe Vietnam war as a criminal act of aggression that resulted in at least 2 million deaths, and to portray all US soldiers there as murderers from Calley's platoon.
How about that?
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Originally posted by Toad
Or the Canadair Limited CL-44 transport, registration number LV-JTN rammed by Kulyapin.
Canadair CL-44D4-6
LV-JTN Transporte A‚ reo Rioplatense - TAR
July 18 1981.
Stuart MacCafferti, the Schotland businesman, has chartered the specified plane to deliver weapons to Iran. At July 17, captain Ektor Kordero enroute from Turkey to Iran, in attempt to bypass a site of the Iranian-Iraq front has violated the Armenian border and flyed just 50 km. from Erevan (Armenian capitol). Not looking at that radars have found out LV-JTN in time, fighters did not rise in air and air defence staff has ignored the plane-infringer. Thus at July 18, LV-JTN crew being assured of the impunity, on the back way from Iran crossed the Armenian border again. But this time, 2 pairs of Su-15TM (982-d IAP) took off from Vaziany airbase (Georgia). Due to radar operator errors, they ran out of fuel and have been compelled to RTB. So, at 1430 capt. Alexander Kulyapin (Su-15TM, 982-d IAP, home base Vaziany?) was ordered to intercept LV-JTN and force it to land. After gaining visual contact, in current of 13 minutes Kulyapin tryed to force LV-JTN to follow him. But LV-JTN crew ignored commands. After report Kulyapin was ordered to destroy LV-JTN. Considering that fact, that R-98M missiles should have enough distance from target to fire, Kulyapin has made a decision to ram LV-JTN. After impact he ejected and was picked up by local residents.
3 crewmembers of LV-JTN and one passenger (possible MacCafferti himself) dyed.
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Originally posted by Toad
Don't like Stalinist? How about "lunatic"? "Idiot"?
Toad, I have to say that you are not a "lunatic" or "idiot".
Sorry, but IMHO You are just a former disposable gear in an inhuman war machine that planned and prepared genocide of my people, at the same time practicing genocide routinely against other nations, totally brainwashed to the stage of removal of basic human instincts and feelings.
How about that?... Should this be included into all US histroy school books as the only point of view? And this opinion is shared by millions of people who felt what US "democracy" is, when their homes and families were "bombed to stone age"?
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Originally posted by Estel
Canadair CL-44D4-6
LV-JTN Transporte A‚ reo Rioplatense - TAR
July 18 1981.
Stuart MacCafferti, the Schotland businesman, has chartered the specified plane to deliver weapons to Iran.
LOL!
Let me remind you that USSR stopped all weapons shipments to Iraq after the Iran-Iraq war began.
Definetly, this guys in LV-JTN deserved it. Or, I think that with their navigation skills they had a wonderfull opportunity to land at some Iraqi airfield :aok
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Originally posted by Toad
Or the unarmed Iranian helicopter downed when it strayed across the border near Ashkhabad in foggy weather on June 21, 1978.
June 21 1978
At 0621 radar site near Bagir village, detected four slow-speed contacts that had come from Iran and penetrating 15 to 20 km into Soviet airspace near Dushak, Turkmenistan. At 0626 these targets were detected by radar at Ak-Tepe Air Forces Base, and deputy commander of 152 LAP, Lt Col J A Miloslavsky, ordered one MiG-23M, flown by capt. A V Dem'janov, to scramble and intercept. Once over the area, Dem'janov found just one helicopter, but misidentified it as friendly. In addition, the command post told him "not to turn weapons on and not to come too close to the target". As Dem'janov's answers to calls from the GCI station sounded uncertain, he was ordered back to Ak-Tepe and instead, at 0652, Lt Col Miloslavsky dispatched another MiG-23M, flown by capt. Valery I Shkinder. He approached four contacts, identified them properly as Boeing CH-47C Chinook helicopters of the Imperial Iranian Air Force and got the order to attack. At the time, Iranian Chinooks were flying in two pairs to the northwest along the Garagum Canal. But when their crews detected the interceptor above them, they turned to the southwest and flew towards the Kopet mountains and the Iranian border. Diving behind the two rear Chinooks, Shkinder fired two R-60 missiles. Both found their mark and exploded against the rearmost helicopter, the wreckage of which crashed near the village of Gjaurs, killing all eight crew members. Shkinder reported the destruction of the first target to his base and announced that he was attacking the second helicopter. Turning around, he positioned his MiG-23M behind the damaged helicopter and opened fire with GSh-23L. He hit the starboard engine of 5-4092. The Iranian pilot managed to land near the Soviet border post at Gjaurs. All four crew members survived, but were captured by Soviet border guards. The remaining two Chinooks got away, crossing back into Iranian airspace.
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Hey, something to be proud of there Estel.
Shooting down two unarmed helos that were about to conquer the USSR!
Boroda, I really don't care about your assumptions, assertions or fractured history.
As I said, it's enough for me that the world has an obscure record like this BBS that shows the continuing denial of history by you and your countrymen.
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Originally posted by Toad
Hey, something to be proud of there Estel.
Shooting down two unarmed helos that were about to conquer the USSR!
Toad, tell me please, what happens if four helicopters like Mi-8 have come close to Miami from Cuba? How long they would remain in alive?
P.S. Looks like it's to be proud of shooting down own planes with people like you did at 9/11.....
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Originally posted by Toad
Hey, something to be proud of there Estel.
Shooting down two unarmed helos that were about to conquer the USSR!
Toad, Estel again showed that you lie. Lies are the only thing that you can offer, as usual.
Unarmed helos? Damn, with Iranian AF colours!
Flying along the Garagum Canal!!!
They were there only to get some water from the Canal, or probably gor lost and wondered what is this huge river in a desert?
Shooting possible enemy's heavy helicopters that fly along a canal that provides water supply to half of Central Asia - I think that the only bad thing about it was that they didn't shoot all four immediately.
Originally posted by Toad
Boroda, I really don't care about your assumptions, assertions or fractured history.
As I said, it's enough for me that the world has an obscure record like this BBS that shows the continuing denial of history by you and your countrymen.
No Toad, it's you who denies your participation in preparing nuclear genocide of Soviet people, who denies war crimes in Vietnam, Korea and dozens of other places, getting hold of your rotten Goebbels's propaganda lies about Katyn as a last resort, deliberately refraining from using your brain cells in favour of paranoid McCartyist slogans imprinted into your mind during your glorious military service as a disposable pawn, that didn't even provide you with a decent pension.
Edit for Russian-speaking people: Чегой-то меня понесло, хоть я и тверёзый. Задолбали вихри яростных атак. Квака-задавака запизделся окончательно, становится жаль что не его пепелац мочканули вместе с тем боингом. Они видите-ли рисовали "маршруты вхождения" на Д. Востоке, чиста невинное занятие, наверное по этим маршрутам в обход ПВО нам бы гумпомощь повезли, бля, на полсотни-вторых...
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Originally posted by Estel
Toad, tell me please, what happens if four helicopters like Mi-8 have come close to Miami from Cuba? How long they would remain in alive?
P.S. Looks like it's to be proud of shooting down own planes with people like you did at 9/11.....
Why we let them land and give them a new life in a land without communism!
Happens every now and then. See, we're not so paranoid that we have to kill anyone that crosses our border.
On March 20, 1991, Orestes Lorenzo Lorenzo suddenly appeared in the Florida skies over Boca Chica Naval Air Station in a MiG-23, circling three times in the noon sun and waggling his wings to signify friendly intentions.
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Originally posted by Estel
Toad, tell me please, what happens if four helicopters like Mi-8 have come close to Miami from Cuba? How long they would remain in alive?
In 1978, most likely they would not be shot down. A close eye would have been kept on them for they could be filled with those escaping from Castro. Miami is not some backwoods, out in the boonies, place like Armenia is.
All you commies are showing is your paranoria.
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Originally posted by Boroda
No Toad, it's you who denies your participation in preparing nuclear genocide of Soviet people, who denies war crimes in Vietnam, Korea and dozens of other places, getting hold of your rotten Goebbels's propaganda lies about Katyn as a last resort, deliberately refraining from using your brain cells in favour of paranoid McCartyist slogans imprinted into your mind during your glorious military service as a disposable pawn, that didn't even provide you with a decent pension.
Thank you Boroda.
That's EXACTLY the type of thing that needs to be preserved.
Pension? For 7 years work that left me exceedingly well trained for an outstanding and lucrative job in the private sector? Whatever for?
Oh... you don't understand... you guys had no private sector. :rofl
Anyway, don't worry about my pension. It's pretty nice and I owe it all to the USAF, really.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
In 1978, most likely they would not be shot down. A close eye would have been kept on them for they could be filled with those escaping from Castro. Miami is not some backwoods, out in the boonies, place like Armenia is.
Boonies? What does it mean?
This "boonies" were a possible route for bombers to Caspian oil wells. Since 1940 our "allies" plan to burn them.
Originally posted by MiloMorai
All you commies are showing is your paranoria.
We have some reasons to be paranoid, I already wrote about Drop Shot plan and other plans of nuclear attach (first attack!) against USSR, they were declassified over 30 years ago. That plans look absolutley insane, because our "fighters for peace and democracy" planned a nuclear attack, at the same time estimating that Soviet Army was able to capture all Europe, Mid East and Persian Gulf in no more then six months, regardless to nuclear genocide of Soviet cities...
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After the way you back-stabbed the Poles, it was a smart thing to have a war plan prepared wrt the USSR. :)
Oh and don't pull out the "they were gonna use nukes" whine either... or I'll pull up the data on your in-service dates for USSR nuclear bombers, missiles and missile submarines.
Didn't want to talk about those did ya? Ignored them last time, but I can find the thread easily enough I think.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
In 1978, most likely they would not be shot down. A close eye would have been kept on them for they could be filled with those escaping from Castro. Miami is not some backwoods, out in the boonies, place like Armenia is.
All you commies are showing is your paranoria.
If you spoke about nowadays, probably that I would believe you. But not about 1978. Perhaps their wrekages would lay in vicinity of Key.
Paranoya? Wow, guys, our paranoya is nothing against yours. To take away matches before flight..... And send personal data-files within a month before arrival. This is the real paranoya.
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Originally posted by Toad
Oh... you don't understand... you guys had no private sector. :rofl
We have :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Thank you Boroda.
That's EXACTLY the type of thing that needs to be preserved.
Pension? For 7 years work that left me exceedingly well trained for an outstanding and lucrative job in the private sector? Whatever for?
Oh... you don't understand... you guys had no private sector. :rofl
Anyway, don't worry about my pension. It's pretty nice and I owe it all to the USAF, really.
Toad, what surprises me is that you risked your life, flying almost criminal missions violating Soviet airspace, when your life was a question of good will from Soviet side, and your "beloved party and government" didn't even bother to give you a pension...
It's a beautiful world of capitalism. Unfortunately, we live in the same crap now... :(
Your words about "private sector" in USSR show your total, complete ignorance about the enemy you planned to eliminate. No surprise, it's always like that, at least on "blue" side.
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And don't relax. Tomorrow I will post Aeroflot at 1953 and IranAir at 1988.
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Toad,
do you have any examples of commie a/c entering North American air space and being allowed to go on their merry way?
How about commie a/c that overflew USN ships and were allowed to go on their merry way?
How about commie ships that put themselves in the way of USN ships? They could very well have been suicide ships.
LOL Borada. How far away was the Canadair from your precious Caspian oilfields?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
How about commie a/c that overflew USN ships and were allowed to go on their merry way?
I don't think that I'll tell you something secret. But. Due to international agreements the ships CAN BE OVERFLYED. The Dot. So, these overflights were in the past, have place in the presence and will be in the future. From all sides.
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Originally posted by Boroda
getting hold of your rotten Goebbels's propaganda lies about Katyn as a last resort,
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Originally posted by Toad
After the way you back-stabbed the Poles, it was a smart thing to have a war plan prepared wrt the USSR. :)
War plan means defence, aggressive war plan means victory.
Your plans didn't mean any of that, they meant starting a war with bombing 30 Soviet cities to ashes killing 8 million people within first week, and then losing war on the ground with no other option.
I find it absolutely insane. At least from our barbaric point of view.
About Poland - you'd better STFU, you'll look more clever. Ask UK and France about guaranties to Poland, then ask why they didn't declare war on USSR in Sept, 1939, and then go find a Churchill's radio adress that says USSR saved millions of people from Hitler in 1939.
Oh, sorry, you don't read anything except your propaganda comic books like this:
(http://www.authentichistory.com/images/1960s/treasure_chest/v17_14_09.jpg)
Originally posted by Toad
Oh and don't pull out the "they were gonna use nukes" whine either... or I'll pull up the data on your in-service dates for USSR nuclear bombers, missiles and missile submarines.
Well, enlighten me. It's obvious that we had all the above-mentioned things years later then you.
Originally posted by Toad
Didn't want to talk about those did ya? Ignored them last time, but I can find the thread easily enough I think.
I ignored it because of obvious absurdity of using this dates and numbers as a confirmation of Soviet "aggressive intentions".
And you type or cut and paste faster then me, at least you post your hallucinations in your native language.
Face it: you prepared a horrible death for millions of people in Soviet Far East. I mean - you, mr. Toad took part in it personally.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
LOL Borada. How far away was the Canadair from your precious Caspian oilfields?
Ask Toad about "ingress routes", he's a specialist in plotting flightplans for B-52s. Anyway - they are only several minutes of flight for modern aircrafts.
I only wonder how PVO didn't use SAMs against violators, and always sent planes to risk the lives of pilots to save the bastards.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, what surprises me is that you risked your life, flying almost criminal missions violating Soviet airspace, when your life was a question of good will from Soviet side, and your "beloved party and government" didn't even bother to give you a pension...
Here's what surprises me.
I flew Recon for over 5 years and never once violated ICAO airspace rules. I was NEVER in Soviet airspace.
But I had threats from Soviet fighters...while I was in ICAO International Airspace.... to either land immediately or be shot down.
Which we of course ignored.
The only Soviet "good will" was their decision not to butcher me and my crew like they butchered so many other military aircraft in ICAO International Airspace.
My deal with the USAF was a pension after 20 years. Plenty fair and a good deal, really. I left for the airlines at 7 years... no obligation and I did REALLY well with the training and experience I got in the USAF. I feel blessed; I love the AF. ;)
I'd do it all over exactly the same way too. I'd do it right now in Iraq but they wont' take me because I'm old. But I did volunteer.
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What kind of putz expects a pension after only 7 years? Somebody that likes to leech off of society.
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Depends on what height Estel. If the Americans were as paranoid as you commies are those flights would be considered hostile.
Yup, the commies could only defeat the Poles in 1939 after the Germans had already wiped out most of the Polish forces.:rofl
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
How about commie a/c that overflew USN ships and were allowed to go on their merry way?
Really?! :D
Usually a mock attack on your carriers results in wet pants and inability to do anything. OTOH - US carrier-based planes have a glorious record of shooting down MiGs in international airspace, miles from CV groups, but - usually when Soviet CAP has orders not to return fire in any case.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Face it: you prepared a horrible death for millions of people in Soviet Far East. I mean - you, mr. Toad took part in it personally.
Face it? I'm proud of it.
The war plan was never to make a pre-emptive first strike. I know. I was tested on the SIOP.
However, if the USSR started it, you would have ceased to exist. Period.
And even if that cost the existence of the US, it would have been better than you lot dictating to the world.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ask Toad about "ingress routes", he's a specialist in plotting flightplans for B-52s. Anyway - they are only several minutes of flight for modern aircrafts.
I only wonder how PVO didn't use SAMs against violators, and always sent planes to risk the lives of pilots to save the bastards.
Nope,:) I asked you.
On the copters, it only shows how incompetent the commie soldiers are that they could not take care of a minimum of 24 'enemy' soldiers when the copters landed.
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Originally posted by Toad
Here's what surprises me.
I flew Recon for over 5 years and never once violated ICAO airspace rules. I was NEVER in Soviet airspace.
But I had threats from Soviet fighters...while I was in ICAO International Airspace.... to either land immediately or be shot down.
Which we of course ignored.
Yeah, and wolves are vegetarians, LOL! :D
Toad, US recon planes violated Soviet airspace at least every week in the Far East in late-70s, I wonder how did you manage to escape it in 5 years. Hint: if you see an interceptor that orders you to land - you are probably in somebody's else airspace. :D
Originally posted by Toad
The only Soviet "good will" was their decision not to butcher me and my crew like they butchered so many other military aircraft in ICAO International Airspace.
Proof please. If a plane was shot down - it happened in Soviet airspace. Soviet chain of command simply had to avoid any doubts in such cases. Unfortunately (fortunately for you) it was too long, so usually "doves of peace" like you (preparing the way for other 8-engined doves) had time to escape or interceptors ran out of fuel.
I expect a bunch of great arguments like "Soviets are evil by nature" and so on.
Originally posted by Toad
My deal with the USAF was a pension after 20 years. Plenty fair and a good deal, really. I left for the airlines at 7 years... no obligation and I did REALLY well with the training and experience I got in the USAF. I feel blessed; I love the AF. ;)
So - you were not on "combat service"? Here one year in combat counts as 2-3 years.
Originally posted by Toad
I'd do it all over exactly the same way too. I'd do it right now in Iraq but they wont' take me because I'm old. But I did volunteer.
Don't worry, they'll turn to you later.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I only wonder how PVO didn't use SAMs against violators, and always sent planes to risk the lives of pilots to save the bastards.
Because of an order. You must visually identify target before shooting. This was a problem of IranAir.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Nope,:) I asked you.
On the copters, it only shows how incompetent the commie soldiers are that they could not take care of a minimum of 24 'enemy' soldiers when the copters landed.
For your information. The density of soldiers per square kilometer in that place was something about 1 soldier per 30-40 square kilometers. There is a decert.
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Originally posted by Toad
Face it? I'm proud of it.
Still feel pity it didn't happen?...
Originally posted by Toad
The war plan was never to make a pre-emptive first strike. I know. I was tested on the SIOP.
Yeah, you know, and the Drop Shot plan was published in 1968 IIRC. Better try to find anything about it, there was a book devoted to it widely published, and then - try to say something about "denying history".
Originally posted by Toad
However, if the USSR started it, you would have ceased to exist. Period.
And even if that cost the existence of the US, it would have been better than you lot dictating to the world.
Lunatics. Absolute, complete insanity.
Fortunately your plans didn't come true - you realised that USSR can retaliate. Thanks to Khruschev's "missile bluff", otherwise there was nothing to stop you, criminals.
BTW, who's dictating to the world now, even reasoning about history school books? Is it USSR?
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Originally posted by Estel
For your information. The density of soldiers per square kilometer in that place was something about 1 soldier per 30-40 square kilometers. There is a decert.
Sure Estel, the copter soldiers were to walk across tens of km of desert to get to the precious oil fields.:rolleyes: No commie soldiers in the near vicinity of those precious oil fields? Not like the commies to leave such a precious installation so unprotected.
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Originally posted by Toad
Michael J. Kennedy was not one of the Joseph P. Kennedy line.
There's a TON of Kennedys in America, some in politics. You think the CIA kills them because of their name.
Don't like Stalinist? How about "lunatic"? "Idiot"?
You certainly seem to come from an alternate, parallel dimension where everything is exactly the same only completely different.
Maybe that's just the USSR though...........
Toad, you are really trying to look as an intelligent person.
But maybe you trying too hard?
:D :p :rofl
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Toad,
do you have any examples of commie a/c entering North American air space and being allowed to go on their merry way?
How about commie a/c that overflew USN ships and were allowed to go on their merry way?
How about commie ships that put themselves in the way of USN ships? They could very well have been suicide ships.
LOL Borada. How far away was the Canadair from your precious Caspian oilfields?
Milo, this CIA cargo plane (as we now know) was closing on Yerevan,the capital of Armenia, the city with the population of over one million (one third of the population of Armenia). Yerevan is situated in the Araratian Valley where there lives over one fourth of the rural population of Armenia.
That makes together about one million six hundred thousand Armenian people under immediate threat from the sky (slightly over one half of the whole population of Armenia).
Armenian nation suffered the Turkish genocide in 1915.
You think any Soviet pilot would hesitate to shoot down or even ram those bastards flying "a civilian plane" ?
The problem is that the "humanistic" intentions of the USAF highest command (and of higher circles) directly resulted in the thousands of deaths in the WTC inferno on 9/11. And still some retired pilots are trying to defend that "humanistic" approach to the concept of the national air defence system.
Take for instance the notoriously known here at these BBS Mr Toad. He is a tipical volunteer stool pigeon (in Russian "podsadnaya outka",literally="set duck") who thinks that he is defending his country against the threat of Communism. On the contrary, with the kind of attitude he has, he is just handing his country out to the home "Bolsheviks".
:(
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Sure Estel, the copter soldiers were to walk across tens of km of desert to get to the precious oil fields.:rolleyes: No commie soldiers in the near vicinity of those precious oil fields? Not like the commies to leave such a precious installation so unprotected.
Wait, Milo. Look up the posts of Boroda here.
He's just said that those copters were flying all over the important water supply canal.
Taking into account the use of the chemical weapons during the Iraqi-Iranian war, (not mentioning the recent WMD scare that led to the USA-Iraq war), can you just imagine what the presence in the USSR air space of four Iranian Air Force copters could mean for the Soviet air defence command at the time ?
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Originally posted by Staga
Disrespectful? Well that was kinda the idea behind that post.
Nobody who's defending the crimes Soviet Union and its communist regime did won't get anything else from me.
In my books they are just like revisionists and neo-nazies denying holocaust never happened; they all should be put in camps and gulags and lock the gates forever.
Don't like it? Not really my problem.
Staga, there is a very good derogatory term in Russian: "gandon shtopaniy" ("mended condom").
But you are even bigger that that, so this term won't fit you.
:D :rofl
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Originally posted by cpxxx
You Russian guys have no idea of how strange you views come across. Look we all like paint our country in a good light. But how would you feel if a bunch of Germans came on and claimed Hitler was only trying to protect the world from Bolshevism? Some do in fact. The Japanese have made a big effort to do much the same.
There is a big difference between Stalin and Hitler and the Japanese. Most of his repression was against his own people. You should at least recognise that. It is not slur on Russia. It is a slur on Stalin and whole Bolshevik idea. In my history in school I was told that Russia was not the ideal country for Communism. Not enough industry at the time. Germany was the ideal candidate. It went in another direction in the end.
Stalin was a tyrant. The political system he presided over was brutal and repressive. If you can't accept that or try to play it down because you feel it embarrasses Russia. Then you need to modify your views. The regime shares the guilt not the country or it's people. The only way you can avoid a similar situation in the future is to know what went wrong with your history and try not to repeat it. It can happen again. The countries and citizens of the Soviet Union were the victims. The Russian people themselves were victims of Stalin who wasn't even Russian.
One other point, I really find it surprising that someone living in New York, Russian or not still equates Western propaganda with Soviet propaganda.
Remember Genozaur you are quite free to produce your own propaganda leaflet refuting the Pole's views on Stalin. Try that in the old Soviet Union.
Interesting too, that the old resentment against the Poles is still festering. The feeling is mutual I assure you, based on those I've met.
CP,
Hitler WAS trying to eliminate Bolshevism. But he did not see that Stalin had already beheaded
the Bolshevism in Russia and the USSR. Just try to name the top Bolsheviks who in 1917 led the October (Socialist) revolution. Almost all of them were executed on Stalin's orders by 1941. The rest who survived were in hard labor camps or in prison.
You history teacher was following the guidelines
laid out by communist theoretitians Marx and Engels in XIX century. They were the guys who considered Germany as the first candidate for the socialist revolution.
Stalin WAS a tyrant. Nobody here is trying to deny it. Where did you take it from that myself,
Boroda, and other reputable "Stalinists" here ever denied that ? Because our opponents are calling us "Stalinists" ? It's just laughable.
Debilitating Western propaganda in no way can be compared to the "soft core" Soviet Agitprop.
Try to find here on these BBS my posts about the so-called "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact".
And don't forget to apologize for the above remark of yours.
Sincerily,
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Originally posted by Estel
After report Kulyapin was ordered to destroy LV-JTN. Considering that fact, that R-98M missiles should have enough distance from target to fire, Kulyapin has made a decision to ram LV-JTN.
Don't tell me that Russki pilots are so stupid. They might be misguided and clueless commies but no one is that silly.
This is probably the most idiotic thing I've read on this BBS.
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Originally posted by scout
What is that about ? Never heard of western churches 'hating' eastern churches, much less 'hating them more than moslims'.
:confused:
I do know of a serb christian making common cause with american & european christians on an islamic board. No strife there.
Scout, haven't you heard of the late Pope officially apologizing for the crusades against Eastern Christianity and the peoples of eastern Europe ?
:confused:
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Originally posted by Boroda
No Toad, it's you who denies your participation in preparing nuclear genocide of Soviet people
Put down the bottle Boroda... now!
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My dear russian friends.
Your efforts to convince our dear american friends are amazing but it is complete waste of time. You can't do that.
They hate russians. It is just the fact, and you can do nothing with that.
Let see. America has never been at war with Russia. Moreover, almost in all great wars we were together. Russia was one of the first countries who recorgnized the United States after the war for independence, and who even helped the States at that time sending fleet. But they hate us.
They don't hate Germans with whom they were at war twice in the last century. If you tell them that they hate Japanies for Pearl Harbor they will laugh. No, they don't!. May be, they hate only commies? No, they have no problems with Chinese, half of Americans even don't know that the ruling party in China is Communist Party. May be USSR harmed USA during Cold war, and they can't forgive us? Don't tell them that!. They are convinced that they won the war, and as a result the USA became the most powerful country in the world. Actually, they are right in that. May be, the reason of this hate is few incidents with Korean, Finnish or American planes? My God, a lot of such incidents happen every year, but Canadians and British don't hate Americans for friendly fire, Israel doesn't hate Ukraine for good missile shot, etc. May be, they hate us in responce, because we hate them? It is funny, even during cold war I don't think that anybody in USSR seriously hated Americans. We disliked our own goverment and Party much more. Most of us dreamed to visit New York or Los Angeles, they had much more interesting supermarkets than Russia had.
So, why? Why do they hate commies so much that even now want to send us in Gulag? I don't see any reason. We did nothing wrong to Americans, at least we didn't do anything so serious that it could be reason for such strong feelings.
Why?
Ask any psychiatrists how they call people who hate somebody for no serious reason. Yes, they call them psychopaths. But it is absolutely impossible that the whole country, the most strong and prosperous country in the worls consists of psychopaths.
I know only 2 examples in history when the major part of the population became psychopaths: Germany in 1933 and Russia in late 1920's. In the both cases it was the result of brainwashing.
Seems, we are having the third now.
And you, my dear russian friends, can't compete with free press!
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Toad,
do you have any examples of commie a/c entering North American air space and being allowed to go on their merry way?
[/b]
“On February 27, 1974, a Soviet AN-24 reconnaissance aircraft was low on fuel and made an emergency landing at Gambell Airfield in Alaska. The crew remained on the aircraft overnight. They were provided space heaters and food. They were refueled the next day and they departed. The crew was not detained and the aircraft was not detained.
A Soviet reconnaissance aircraft, refueled, crew fed and sheltered for free and sent on their way.
There's the difference between us and the "Kill 'em all" Russians you see defending their country's murders.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hint: if you see an interceptor that orders you to land - you are probably in somebody's else airspace. :D
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Not likely. 2 of the best navigators in the USAF on each RC using an inertial nav platform coupled to a stellar astrotracker that was proven accurate to within 1/8th of a mile after 8 hours of flight and each Nav having to use another method of plotting position every thirty minutes.
What the interceptors wanted was to capture an RC. Wasn't going to happen. Ever.
Proof please. If a plane was shot down - it happened in Soviet airspace.
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Just ONE example:
22 June 1955 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune of VP-9 (BuNo 131515), flying a patrol mission from Kodiak Alaska, was attacked over the Bering Strait by two Soviet MiG-15 studmuffinots. The aircraft crash-landed on St. Lawrence Island after an engine was set afire. Of the eleven crew members, including pilot Richard F. Fischer, co-pilot David M. Lockhard, Donald E. Sonnek, Thaddeus Maziarz, Martin E. Berg, Eddie Benko, David Assard and Charles Shields, four sustained injuries due to gunfire and six were injured during the landing. The USA demanded $724,947 in compensation; the USSR finally paid half this amount.
Here's another:
1 July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Sea was downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 studmuffinot. Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed. Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.
Wait.. one more..
1967 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet of the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over Iran, near the Soviet border, was reported to have been hit by a Soviet surface-to-air missile. The damaged aircraft managed to reach the mountains north of Tehran, but crashed before being able to land, killing the entire crew.
I expect a bunch of great arguments like "Soviets are evil by nature" and so on.
No, not by nature... by choice. Which is far, far worse.
So - you were not on "combat service"? Here one year in combat counts as 2-3 years.
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How could we be on "combat service"? There was no war going on with you guys, other than the Cold War. It was no big deal.
Don't worry, they'll turn to you later.
I hope so but I think not.