Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: IK3 on May 30, 2005, 06:48:04 PM
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discuss...
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....ting
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i don't fly the ki84 and most of the planes with new gauges, realistic but sux,
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I liked it before it got the boosted engine rating and the WEP setting. It was like the 109F then, it had the potential to be a great contender if you flew it right. Now with that boost it's just a tad too easy, in my book. I fly it less because it's too "uber" and I go for a different ride for the sake of what pride I have left.
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I like it, I take it when I want a furballin plane with some speed.
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I should like it more than I do. It seems too touchy for me, or my control setup.
btw, how is Hayate pronounced? Is it Ha'-yah-tay?
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I pronounce it "Hi-ah-tay". I'm not sure if that's the correct way, though.
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The KI-84 kicks ass. I hated it at first. I couldnt fly it and I was getting my butt kicked by guys who were flying it. I told myself Im going to spend a week in this thing till I learn how to fly it or die. After a few hours I figured out to quit flying it like I assumed it should fly by what I read on the BBS in the months prior to its release and just fly the damned thing. I couldnt be happier.:D
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I like it, very surprised i dont see more of them.
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i fly it when i have a pink thong on. But not before i wax my legs.
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I hate them things ... there always zoomin high and low givin my spittoon a bad time.
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They are Uber l33t. No Question about it. IMO the P38s worst nme.
I have tried to make it my main ride.....
Truth is though I just cant get myself to really "Like" the plane.
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I have been flying the Hayate as my current learning plane for recent 2 tours, and found it such a great plane indeed. It has two-edge characteristics, high speed and low speed. With its flaps deployed, it turns incredibly well especially at vertical maneuver. Thanks to Soda's Aircraft Evaluation, following his explanation made me easy to learn this aircraft.
The only factor I don`t like is its cannon, comparered to N1k`s 20mm which seems to have less firing rate yet much more power.
Originally posted by oboe
btw, how is Hayate pronounced? Is it Ha'-yah-tay? [/B]
Very close:) Ha as ha-ppy, Ya as Ya-hoo, and Te as Te-xt
Regards,
Ryusei
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The Ki-84-Ia is the best general balance between speed and maneuverability.
* It is about the only plane that can contend with the P-38 in harsh, extreme low speed maneuvering. Other planes may have better overall turn rates, or tighter turn radius, but the P-38 and the Ki-84 are the only planes that can hold as low as some 90~100mph and keep turning tightest as possible, without stalling out our destabilizing.
* Its speed is as fast as a P-38L, recording 344mph at 100ft with WEP use. The acceleration, roll rate, climb rate is all very good.
* Firepower is sufficient. Not particularly great, but a mix of 12.7mm machine guns and 20mm cannons is pretty standard in the MA.
* Its weakness is the unimpressive increase in speed at higher alts, and generally over 15k, the Spit9 would begin showing higher top speed.
* A large weakness is the loss of elevator authority at high speeds. When speed is over 350mph, keeping this plane at the semi-automatic Combat Trim, will make it impossible for you to black out. The control authority is too weak to generate enough Gs to black out despite the speed. Thus, when entering a maneuvering contest at high speeds, the use of manual trim with elev. trim positioned to 'neutral', is highly recommended.
* Another very important weakness is the tendency to destabilize at about 50mph margin just before the speed range drops down to allow use of flaps.
* The construction is relatively brittle. It cannot hold is structure above 450mph. At these higher speeds, something will fall off abruptly.
* The rudder authority is not very impressive and thus, it cannot dump unnecessary E as quickly as some planes.
* The frontal struts impair vision to left and right side of the gunsight, thus, when visually tracking up a target to the gunsight, you will momentarily lose sight of him just before he enters the gunsight.
* While it can easily zoom up to almost 0mph vertical, if the recovery process at this extreme low speed is not proper, due to the torque it has a high probability of falling under a flat spin during the attempt - especially if the flaps areout. You are going straight vertical, the speed nears 30~50mph, and just when the plane has to flip over and nose down, it will start spinning at the yaw axis - the danger point cometh.
* While the larger areas of glass offer better visibilty than most other Imperial Japanese fighters, it also means a higher probability of receving pilot wounds.
* It's dive capabilities are uninspiring.
* Extreme combat maneuvering is entirely dependant on flap systems. If flap use is proper, it will outturn a Spit9s and N1Ks at deck, and even keep up with a Spit5. However, if flap use is improper, it is just above average in maneuvering. Thus, if for any reason flap systems are damaged, more than 60% of its potential is subdued.
All in all, it's one of the best MA planes and yet, for some reason, intriguingly unpopular.
Many Japanese pilots of AH still resort to their ol' N1K2s and not this new Ki-84. That is easily explainable since the the 900 rounds of 4x20mms the N1K holds is better suited to their flying styles, as compared to the 300 rounds of 2x20mms of the Ki84.
However, what is intriguing is other players of other nationalities do not seem much attracted to it - despite the fact that as a fighter the Ki-84 is superior to the Spit9 or even the Spit5 under MA circumstances. The maneuverability is roughly simular(or even better under some circumstances), but the speed is much higher. It is about 28mph faster than the Spit5 and 24mph faster than the Spit9.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
* A large weakness is the loss of elevator authority at high speeds.
Dang. I wish I could say it all so well. Always a pleasure to read your evaluations K.
Hap
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I think it is used so rarely because it falls apart in a fast dive.
Also the bomb load is not enough to drop the VH. I like it to come into a base with the p38, drop VH and start fights.
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I have always been unsuccessfull with that thing, more than any other ride for some unknown reason (ok, I know I just plainly s*ck :p)
It's a pity, because I spend loads of time in the A6m5, and this one looks much better.
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I prefer the Ki61. perhaps if they modelled the late war variant?
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KI 84 is very exciting to watch burn,...... a flying Torch...:D
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Originally posted by Kweassa
However, what is intriguing is other players of other nationalities do not seem much attracted to it - despite the fact that as a fighter the Ki-84 is superior to the Spit9 or even the Spit5 under MA circumstances. The maneuverability is roughly simular(or even better under some circumstances), but the speed is much higher. It is about 28mph faster than the Spit5 and 24mph faster than the Spit9.
I think the main difference between Spits and the Ki-84 isn't high speed but rather maneuverability at high speed. Thus while the Spits might be markedly slower than Ki-84s, they can do so much more at that speed than their Japanese counterparts. Spits handle pretty decently at high speed and require an enormous amount of speed before locking up tight. On the other hand, Ki-84s tend to stiffen up rather early and come out of it rather late.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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pilot wounds, pilot wounds, pilot wounds........
Other than that, I like it. Been flying it quite a bit this weekend and have managed to reach the point where it takes 20 seconds to die, rather than 5. :)
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I hate it. The plane sucks. Don't fly it unless you want to waste your time. Its useles against 38s and SpitVs.
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I actually liked it quite a bit. I'm not going to be as verbose as Kweassa was, but for me the manueverability falls somewhere between the Spit 5 and the Spit 9.
It is easily the 2nd best knife-fighter in the game, after the Spit 5. I think the main reason people don't fly it much is because you don't get a whole lot for the added speed. La-7s, D-9s, P-51s, G-10s... they'll all still run away from you, even though you are ~20 mph faster than the Spit 5. But you give up Hizookas, and a slight edge in turning and overall handling (the Spit 5 is much 'crisper' on the controls), which make it not quite as ideal for killing. You also have to work quite a bit harder to get the best out of a Ki-84 (flaps, flaps... you are always playing with the flaps.. at least I was). So you really sacrifice for no gain.
It is a great plane for someone who knows how to knife-fight but doesn't feel like flying the same plane as 20% of the arena. Although I guess now that the generic SPIT tag has been replaced with Spit9, etc that isn't as big a problem.
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It is now one of my main rides.
Kw basically said it all. Most who don't like it are trying to fly it like they fly other planes and this is their mistake. It took me a good 3 weeks to learn this plane. It is unlike any other plane I have flown. Both good and bad.
If you fly to it's strengths you will be successful if you fly to its weeknesses you will not. She is a tempermental girls and you have to treat her that way. Speed is both your friend and your enemy. I use a combination of energy and angles tactics. Very few planes can chase you in a climbing spiral.
I like the gun package. The 12.7s are effective even at long ranges. Although they do suffer from the typical poor IJN ballistic characteristics. The 20's seem about the same as the N1k2 20's.
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At speeds of 150 or above Spits have advantage. When you get nice and slow, neither spit can hang with it for long(spit5 can make a show of it). Basically in MA I go for rope with it or try to slow the fight down fast. IMO biggest knock against it are it's guns which don't seem to have a lot of hitting power.
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The KI-84 is a real beast if a) you don't understand what exactly it can and can not do, and b) it's being flown to it's potential. Fortunatly the prevelance of condition a usually limits condition b.
In the MA the KI-84 has two main strengths that really make it worth trying. First when you cut throttle this thing comes to a stop in no time. Turning it with 0 throtle it actually slows faster then a typhoon. I don't even attempt medium speed reversals against this plane because of this. The other strength it offers is that it can go verticle fairly quickly at low speed. This requires a great deal of care, as it's stall isn't particularly forgiving. But its this low speed verticle performance that allows this plane to consistantly out-turn the spitV in a knife fight. You just want to immel, reverse into a scissor, rinse, repeat. When things get sufficiently slow do your immel then start a flat turn on top at ~90mph. You can push the spit out of his envelope at these low speeds and force him to break off just long enough to turn back in for position.
These strengths require a great deal of care to exploit, however. Stall fighting keeps you slow, so being successful with it usually involves staying above your enemy. You need good SA to manage the E states of every con in the sector as stall fighting isnt effective with BnZers comming in. I also see a lot of KI pilots get in trouble assuming they are in the best stall fighter in the game. Despite it's good low speed handling, the KI-84 does not match the 38 in the verticle. Performance wise these planes turn at about the same rate, and nose up about as fast. Yes the KI-84 has a slight turn advantage on the 38, but it's only about 1/4th a circle every 3 rotations. And before you gain this turn advantage the 38 will go verticle to speeds below 90mph, where the KI-84 can't follow. Basically as a 38 pilot these guys are brutal if you break out of the verticle to try and turn, but they die fast if you just take em past their envelope.
The other problem I've had with the KI-84 is that 'go verticle, hit flaps, flat turn, shoot' is really the only move you get to make in this plane. It's powerful, but it's not an options ride. I can only fly one of these things for a few minutes a tour, then the repitition of it gets to me. Even the SpitV has more tricks then this plane.
-p.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
IMO biggest knock against it are it's guns which don't seem to have a lot of hitting power.
Not good news for me since I'm considering changing my handle to SprayMaster or something. I can unload a fresh clip at D400 and not hit the target, sad but true 80% of the time :(
I do however manage to stay up longer in the KI-84 because of it's ability to turn quickly, it has a tendancy to get me out of harms way a little better :)
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Originally posted by oboe
btw, how is Hayate pronounced? Is it Ha'-yah-tay?
I thought it was pronounced Hate, like I hate when I get shot down by the KI-84. :)
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Originally posted by pellik
The KI-84 is a real beast if a) you don't understand what exactly it can and can not do, and b) it's being flown to it's potential. Fortunatly the prevelance of condition a usually limits condition b.
In the MA the KI-84 has two main strengths that really make it worth trying. First when you cut throttle this thing comes to a stop in no time. Turning it with 0 throtle it actually slows faster then a typhoon. I don't even attempt medium speed reversals against this plane because of this. The other strength it offers is that it can go verticle fairly quickly at low speed. This requires a great deal of care, as it's stall isn't particularly forgiving. But its this low speed verticle performance that allows this plane to consistantly out-turn the spitV in a knife fight. You just want to immel, reverse into a scissor, rinse, repeat. When things get sufficiently slow do your immel then start a flat turn on top at ~90mph. You can push the spit out of his envelope at these low speeds and force him to break off just long enough to turn back in for position.
These strengths require a great deal of care to exploit, however. Stall fighting keeps you slow, so being successful with it usually involves staying above your enemy. You need good SA to manage the E states of every con in the sector as stall fighting isnt effective with BnZers comming in. I also see a lot of KI pilots get in trouble assuming they are in the best stall fighter in the game. Despite it's good low speed handling, the KI-84 does not match the 38 in the verticle. Performance wise these planes turn at about the same rate, and nose up about as fast. Yes the KI-84 has a slight turn advantage on the 38, but it's only about 1/4th a circle every 3 rotations. And before you gain this turn advantage the 38 will go verticle to speeds below 90mph, where the KI-84 can't follow. Basically as a 38 pilot these guys are brutal if you break out of the verticle to try and turn, but they die fast if you just take em past their envelope.
The other problem I've had with the KI-84 is that 'go verticle, hit flaps, flat turn, shoot' is really the only move you get to make in this plane. It's powerful, but it's not an options ride. I can only fly one of these things for a few minutes a tour, then the repitition of it gets to me. Even the SpitV has more tricks then this plane.
-p.
With all the respect Pellik, I think you just have not flown the KI a lot. You said you only flew it a few minutes and the repetition got to you? It can out turn a spitV but only has a slight turn advantage agaist the 38? The 38 can go vertical at 90mph? so? KI84 can go vertical at 70mph. If anything can kill a good 38 pilot, it is the KI84. What kind of tricks does the spitV have that make it more interesting?
Please don't see this as an attack. I just think you wrong. I can't count the number of 38s I killed because they thought they could go vertical with a KI on them. You are right about flying slow though. The KI can virtualy stop in mid air, wait for the overshoot, wep on and you can go straight up in a matter of seconds. I took of a CV last night with 75% fuel. Went straight up using about 1/4 or less of the CV deck.
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The high speed handling/aerodynamic-fragility is the bane of the Ki84. The speed intolerance of the Ki-84 is the real issue and how it conflicts with the average persons engagement profile. Most people in speed-inferior aircraft use the "climb high, dive in for extra speed, chase down an opponent and force them to turn-fight" profile for this type of aircraft. That's a dangerous approach in the Ki84 as it tends to shed parts easily at speed and the handling becomes very heavy. The Ki84 can also be easily frustrated by diving away, taking away the maneuvering advantage it may have and making a pretty easy escape. The Spit V simply has far better handling over the entire speed range of most aircraft.
The firepower/ammunition "weakness" is more perceived than actual in my mind. I'd agree that ballistically they are a bit weak but otherwise I think they are pretty much average in terms of ammunition duration, impact and total firepower potential. Only other thing to add is the quick cycle time on the WEP which allows you to run it on a whim and not worry about being caught without it when you really need it.
Kweassa covered the rest pretty much.
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Originally posted by Soda
The firepower/ammunition "weakness" is more perceived than actual in my mind. I'd agree that ballistically they are a bit weak but otherwise I think they are pretty much average in terms of ammunition duration, impact and total firepower potential.
Yeah Soda, I can agree with that. Guns remind me of 109 20mms which I dislike.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Please don't see this as an attack. I just think you wrong. I can't count the number of 38s I killed because they thought they could go vertical with a KI on them. You are right about flying slow though. The KI can virtualy stop in mid air, wait for the overshoot, wep on and you can go straight up in a matter of seconds. I took of a CV last night with 75% fuel. Went straight up using about 1/4 or less of the CV deck.
If a P-38 pilot lost a vertical fight to a Ki, the P-38 pilot wasn't all that good to begin with. I'm sure in the right hands the Ki-84 could be a fight but from my experience in fighting the Ki-84, I don't consider it to be a threat at all. But that's just my experience in fighting the Ki-84 so YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Soda
The high speed handling/aerodynamic-fragility is the bane of the Ki84. The speed intolerance of the Ki-84 is the real issue and how it conflicts with the average persons engagement profile. Most people in speed-inferior aircraft use the "climb high, dive in for extra speed, chase down an opponent and force them to turn-fight" profile for this type of aircraft. That's a dangerous approach in the Ki84 as it tends to shed parts easily at speed and the handling becomes very heavy. The Ki84 can also be easily frustrated by diving away, taking away the maneuvering advantage it may have and making a pretty easy escape. The Spit V simply has far better handling over the entire speed range of most aircraft.
Yup, I almost gave up on this plane because I kept ripping part off it. You have to be gentle with it. Know what speed it will perform the best at. I did have to learn not to chase planes in a dive. Stay up and be patient.
The firepower/ammunition "weakness" is more perceived than actual in my mind. I'd agree that ballistically they are a bit weak but otherwise I think they are pretty much average in terms of ammunition duration, impact and total firepower potential. Only other thing to add is the quick cycle time on the WEP which allows you to run it on a whim and not worry about being caught without it when you really need it.
Once you are used to the ballistics the guns are quite effective. Much like LW planes the ballistics take time and practice. WEP is great, burn it up and it comes right back.
BTW: Thanks Soda, w/o your writeup I would probably have given up on this plane.
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Originally posted by dedalos
With all the respect Pellik, I think you just have not flown the KI a lot. You said you only flew it a few minutes and the repetition got to you? It can out turn a spitV but only has a slight turn advantage agaist the 38? The 38 can go vertical at 90mph? so? KI84 can go vertical at 70mph. If anything can kill a good 38 pilot, it is the KI84. What kind of tricks does the spitV have that make it more interesting?
Please don't see this as an attack. I just think you wrong. I can't count the number of 38s I killed because they thought they could go vertical with a KI on them. You are right about flying slow though. The KI can virtualy stop in mid air, wait for the overshoot, wep on and you can go straight up in a matter of seconds. I took of a CV last night with 75% fuel. Went straight up using about 1/4 or less of the CV deck.
I've put some time in the KI, I just don't fly it much now because of the repitition. In stall fights between the KI and the 38 there are two aspects which the 38 can use to easily gain angles. First the P38J (what I fly) can sustain level flight as low as 50mph. Second the KI takes its time to get it's nose down when it stalls nose up. The 38 can just keep pointing up until 0mph and do a clean fast hammerhead. And while yes the KI can go verticle at 70mph, it won't recover cleanly from the verticle at those speeds.
Neither the 38 nor the KI-84 turn as fast as a spitV. Fortunately their supperior verticle performance allow them to use stall fighting tactics to "out turn" the spit reguardless. I turnfight spitVs in my 38, you turnfight them in your 84.
I can't tell you that much about spitV tricks, it's just not my plane. I can say the 38 proves much more interesting to me on account of it's much better medium speed handling. It's higher speed flap deployment allows more variation on the merge. And it's guns package means you don't have to follow some spittard through 20 turns to get close enough to shoot.
-p.
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I like how P-38 pilots always post the same stuff in every aircraft thread:
"Blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is great blah blah blah blah blah P-38 easily wins blah blah blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is the best ever blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah."
All the while trying to sound so reasonable, but always reaching the same conclusion that the P-38 is the bestest fighter ever and mocking the skill of anybody who loses in one.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I like how P-38 pilots always post the same stuff in every aircraft thread:
"Blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is great blah blah blah blah blah P-38 easily wins blah blah blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is the best ever blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah."
All the while trying to sound so reasonable, but always reaching the same conclusion that the P-38 is the bestest fighter ever and mocking the skill of anybody who loses in one.
The P38 is the standard for AH stall fighters. If you want to talk about the effectiveness of a stall fighter without mentioning the 38 you're not going to quantify it's usefulness.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I hate it. The plane sucks. Don't fly it unless you want to waste your time. Its useles against 38s and SpitVs.
TO THE DA!!!!!!
Its not that bad Dedalos, catch me in the MA some night and Ill show you what I mean:aok
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Slash..
Think "reverse psychology"..!
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Originally posted by dedalos
I hate it. The plane sucks. Don't fly it unless you want to waste your time. Its useles against 38s and SpitVs.
dedalos who you kidding? (I think he wants to keep the KI a secret)
I have seen you land plenty of kills in a plane that "sucks". lol
KI-84 is a good plane. How do I know?
Because I stink and I manage to get kills with it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Slash..
Think "reverse psychology"..!
doh! God Im easy:(
:D
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Skylab!!
Read Slash27!!
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Originally posted by Karnak
I like how P-38 pilots always post the same stuff in every aircraft thread:
"Blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is great blah blah blah blah blah P-38 easily wins blah blah blah blah blah blah blah P-38 is the best ever blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah."
All the while trying to sound so reasonable, but always reaching the same conclusion that the P-38 is the bestest fighter ever and mocking the skill of anybody who loses in one.
Hmmm...who says the P-38 is the best fighter in this thread? I just said from my experience, I don't consider the Ki-84 to be a major threat, YMMV. Don't recall saying the P-38 is better in anyway and pellik just pointed out what the P-38 can do at low speeds the Ki-84 can't.
Why is it whenever you see the word P-38, you get your panties all in a bunch?
ack-ack
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O OOOOOOOOO!! Fight fight Fight ...
:D
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Ok.
P38 Sucks and so does the Ki84 :D
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:lol
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I think some people confuse their skills and experience with the actual abillities of a plane. You guve the plane too mach credit and the pilot too little. You guys have mastered the 38. There is nothing anyone can throw at you that you wont be able to counter and win the fight in a P38. However, I think, you could probably do the same in any other plane anyway. I am not saing there is anything wrong witht he P38. Just saing that you have a lot more to do with the outcome of the fight than the p38 itself.
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Fly the mossie ya bunch of girls!:D
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Originally posted by dedalos
I hate it. The plane sucks. Don't fly it unless you want to waste your time. Its useles against 38s and SpitVs.
LOL!!! What are you smoking? And does Frank know you stole it from him? :P
When the Ki84 came out, and I had test flown it, I thought "THANK GOD!" finally something to kill those pesky P38s in. It used to be that I could hold my own in a 109F4 or G2 against a P38L, but it was a hard fight. Then with AH2's uber flappage it just got worse. And the only P38 pilots I saw always did the same tired old routine (instantly go vertical, reposition on the downside). So once I started flying the Ki84 I could zoom with the best of them, and wound up shooting down most P38s that tried the "tired and true" manuever they always use. Results? I see way less p38 drivers now. LOL!
Ki84 outflies spits. Outflies 38s. It's a fun fight vs a 51D (but have only had a few of those, can't tell which dominates). It's slower, but it accelerates in a dive like a DREAM. I've found the magical "break things off" point to be just short of 500 TAS (but more than 450, for sure).
Ammo is great. But then I'm relatively conservative in my shots.
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Outflies Spits? When I'm in a KI84, the worst nightmare is a Spit, When I'm in a Spit, well, I see an opponent that will stay and fight untill I kill him :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Outflies Spits? When I'm in a KI84, the worst nightmare is a Spit, When I'm in a Spit, well, I see an opponent that will stay and fight untill I kill him :D
A spit will give nightmares to any plane simply because of the stile of fight people get suckered into. Fly the Ki84 and a few other planes right and all the spit can do is try to dodge bullets.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Ki84 outflies spits. Outflies 38s. It's a fun fight vs a 51D (but have only had a few of those, can't tell which dominates). It's slower, but it accelerates in a dive like a DREAM. I've found the magical "break things off" point to be just short of 500 TAS (but more than 450, for sure).
Ammo is great. But then I'm relatively conservative in my shots.
I think it can take enything US made including the 51, but that does not mean it is going to win everysingle time. It has the ability to kill a 51, the rest is up to you.
If you want a good fight with a 51, find GrmRpr or TankMan
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Originally posted by Angus
Outflies Spits? When I'm in a KI84, the worst nightmare is a Spit, When I'm in a Spit, well, I see an opponent that will stay and fight untill I kill him :D
When I see a spit I'm not worried at all. Think of it this way, a KI can beat a spit slow(150 or less) or you have more speed vs a spit9(and a ton vs spit5) to rope them or at least get an alt advantage off the merge. As always, pilots a factor, but all things equal I find spit only has a narrow window where it has the advantage. The thing is, that window is where you're most likely be fighting at(150-200 range in a TnB fight).
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http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html
=)
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THang, that article is rather.. um.. "gushing".. and the author clearly believed everything he was typing, but it's not all correct. For example he says it was faster than all allied planes, including the p51 and p47 at all except the highest alts (I know this isn't right, so I checked it out). That and the dubious 40,000 ceiling on the ki84 make the article suspect, detail-wise.
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There is a way to beat any other plane in any kind of fight when you're in an 84... and it's easy to do if you have some talent. Best pure dogfighter in the game.
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When Ki-84-I-Otsu (20mm*4 150rds each ver) is out, I will be back.
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Most things have already been said but Im gonna chip in.
Awsome plane. Really great one. One of the best we have. BUT its not a easy plane to fly. While there are harder planes its still not a dweeb friendly plane to fly.
Since you cant dive very well in it and you have to trim manually when you do its not something the dweebs want. The dweebs want the "if all fails dive to the deck and run for home" option, the "if all fails turn till you puke" option or the "no matter what ho".
The turn till you puke crowed either takes a Zekke or a SpitV they wount fly the Frank because they can dive in a SpitV and dont see any benefits over the Zekke (as they cant use the vertical). The drop like a stone and feel crowed obviously go for lalas, runstangs and doras. For the HOers the gun load out aint cannonized enough so they go for the nikki. This imho is why you dont see any mass usage of this great plane.
Reason I dont fly it as much as I could is that Im currently focusing on planes that will be in ToD and learning them one by one PLUS that the Frank is a bit cursed for me.
The curse, pilot wounds and engine oil hits. I dont know why but I tend to get either a pilot wound or a engine oil hit on like 20% of the hits I take, if not more. Find it a bit frustrating actually even more frustrating then the paper wings of the spit. In the spit when I loose my wing I die, done deal. ;)
Tex
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If I'm in Ki84, my worst nightmare be a "good pilot" in a P-38 or a Spit, not A P-38 or A Spit.
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Had 4 head to head fights with Dedelos in his Ki84 and me in my 38G. I got lucky on the first two and he clobbered me on the last two.
Good fun all round. He should have had me on the first one as well. Too much E in that Ki-84 for my 38G to hang with. Thankfully he missed the shot as I stalled out first.
Not sure how some of the good 38L sticks would do though with that extra power the L has.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Had 4 head to head fights with Dedelos in his Ki84 and me in my 38G. I got lucky on the first two and he clobbered me on the last two.
Good fun all round. He should have had me on the first one as well. Too much E in that Ki-84 for my 38G to hang with. Thankfully he missed the shot as I stalled out first.
Not sure how some of the good 38L sticks would do though with that extra power the L has.
Dan/CorkyJr
L does not stand a chance (given equal pilots). It does not respond like the G. You did not get lucky last night. These fights are won by the guy that makes the less mistakes. Its not luck you flew better than me on the first two. Also, on the last two I changed tactiks. I came at 300 or less, instead of the 350 or more on the first 2.
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Originally posted by dedalos
L does not stand a chance (given equal pilots). It does not respond like the G. You did not get lucky last night. These fights are won by the guy that makes the less mistakes. Its not luck you flew better than me on the first two. Also, on the last two I changed tactiks. I came at 300 or less, instead of the 350 or more on the first 2.
Interesting enough, I watched the films and noticed that the speed advantage of the Ki was clearly evident. In general it seemed to accelerate a lot faster then my 38G and had about 50mph edge all the time.
Definately a fun way to learn something new :)
And of course it was get whacked by Ki84s night for me anyway as my first two flights I got clobbered by 84s.
Gonna have to figure out a way to counter the change in tactics for next time :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Here's my take on the Ki-84:
First, I like it very much and have had very good results with it.
Flown wisely, you can turn fight with anything short of the Zekes, and still give the A6M5 driver a major dose of angst because the Hayate is vastly better in the pure vertical.
I prefer the Ki-84 to the N1K2, which it will dominate at low speeds.
Beware of high speed dives, trim manually and exploit its terrific roll rate. Its gun package is good if not great.
I find the P-38J and Ki-84 a very good match with pilot skill being the determining factor. However, be advised that between 175 and 250 mph, any P-38 model out-turns the Ki-84. At any speed, the P-38G can turn with it. However, the Ki-84 can take the fight vertical at low speeds and gain the advantage. Not so against the P-38J or L. However, the Ki-84 has an edge in low speed turning against those. Just remember this; in a pure vertical climb, the Ki-84 WILL NOT get away from a Co-E P-38G. This type of climb is a zoom climb, and the P-38G zoom climbs better than the Ki-84 due to its greater mass. REN and I discovered this dueling a few months ago.
As for Spitfires, the Ki-84 is better in the vertical and can out-turn the SpitIX. I'd give a slight edge to the SpitV in pure flat turns, but the Ki-84 is far superior in the vertical, which easily offsets this.
Acceleration is good, but not spectacular. Climb is very good until that short WEP cycle becomes a factor.
All in all, I feel very secure when flying the Ki-84 as it one of the best non-perked fighters in the plane set.
It's not an easy plane to fly effectively, requiring trimming and close monitoring at high speeds. That is why the N1K2 is more popular. However, the more skilled the pilot, the more likely he will take the Ki-84 over the Niki.
My regards,
Widewing
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I find the P-38J and Ki-84 a very good match with pilot skill being the determining factor. However, be advised that between 175 and 250 mph, any P-38 model out-turns the Ki-84. At any speed, the P-38G can turn with it. However, the Ki-84 can take the fight vertical at low speeds and gain the advantage. Not so against the P-38J or L. However, the Ki-84 has an edge in low speed turning against those. Just remember this; in a pure vertical climb, the Ki-84 WILL NOT get away from a Co-E P-38G. This type of climb is a zoom climb, and the P-38G zoom climbs better than the Ki-84 due to its greater mass. REN and I discovered this dueling a few months ago.
That was clearly evident when flying against Dedalos. When it got real slow, he was able to take the fight vertical and I couldn't hang with him in the 38G. I could definately turn with the 84 though
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Guppy35
That was clearly evident when flying against Dedalos. When it got real slow, he was able to take the fight vertical and I couldn't hang with him in the 38G. I could definately turn with the 84 though
Dan/CorkyJr
I've been flying it for about a month and what I have seen is that if you manage to get the fight into really slow speeds, the KI has the advantage over everything cept the dreaded SpitV and A6M. The fast planes cant excelerate fast enough to get away (event the LA7) before you get a shot, and the turneres cannot follow you up.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
That was clearly evident when flying against Dedalos. When it got real slow, he was able to take the fight vertical and I couldn't hang with him in the 38G. I could definately turn with the 84 though
Dan/CorkyJr
Try the J.
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Originally posted by pellik
Try the J.
It's against my religion :)
Although I'd like to see you in action against the Ki84 in that 38J of doom you fly.
Dan/CorkyJr
Founder/member "Disciples of the P38G"
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Don't confuse your onw abilities with the plane you fly. You will probablu kill me in the J. Means nothing. You could probably kill me as easyly in any other plane.
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OK dedalos, your talking about "up". I guess I am doing it wrong (what else is new :p )
This past weekend I was in a 84 and ran into 3 enemies, a F4U (1D model I think), a C205 and ....um...and.....um...oh yeah, another KI84. Anyway, got them to start turning with me, F4U making bouncing passes and finally leaving me to the other 2. I managed to get full flaps down and turn slow..finally got a shot on the 205 and pegged him. Then it on the water slow turn, slow turn until I managed to get the 84...never won a 2 on 1 in my life until then.....headed home and got bounced (F4U again I think) Point is, if I try anything vertical I get lots of holes in my airplane pretty quick. At that slow speed, are you using flaps when you go vert? Are you faster than flap deployment speed? Whats up?
OK, granted I stink on ice, but you'd think i might manage to pull it off once. :(
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Originally posted by BlkKnit
OK dedalos, your talking about "up". I guess I am doing it wrong (what else is new :p )
This past weekend I was in a 84 and ran into 3 enemies, a F4U (1D model I think), a C205 and ....um...and.....um...oh yeah, another KI84. Anyway, got them to start turning with me, F4U making bouncing passes and finally leaving me to the other 2. I managed to get full flaps down and turn slow..finally got a shot on the 205 and pegged him. Then it on the water slow turn, slow turn until I managed to get the 84...never won a 2 on 1 in my life until then.....headed home and got bounced (F4U again I think) Point is, if I try anything vertical I get lots of holes in my airplane pretty quick. At that slow speed, are you using flaps when you go vert? Are you faster than flap deployment speed? Whats up?
OK, granted I stink on ice, but you'd think i might manage to pull it off once. :(
1st off, do you have stall limiter on? With it on, at a slow enough speed it won't allow you to go up. Also, going "up" doesn't just mean a pure over the top loop, it can be as simple as adding an up and down "current" to your turn(if you get what I mean?) I know that the F4U can hang with the KI well, me and Redd tested it so no surprise that one was tough. I don't know much about the 205 though. Also, against 2 aircraft at once it becomes a different ball game. Against either of those planes 1vs1 the verticle probably woulda worked. But against 2, while you're hanging there fighting 1 in the verticle, the other can sneak in and get ya. That falls more into the SA department and figuring what would be the best manuver to avoid/kill your 2 opponents. If you want to test the KI's ablitiies, go to the DA and fight someone 1vs1 with it, I think you'll be surprised.
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Thanks SD, I did do a bit of up down in the turn, but no over the top. I did go over the top earlier today, but against a spit V ( I lost :p ) while there were about 6 or 7 others all after me too. I pinged up 3 of 'em but didn't get a kill out of it. I do really like this plane, I just see you guys talkin about flying it in a way that I have been unable to do.
Had a similar fight to the one i mentioned above this afternoon, 3 on 1, I got one and did a lot of up and down, again without any over the top stuff. I do enjoy those fights when I can stay alive for a bit and make it interesting.
In that fight I was talkin about, both the KI84 and the 205 were turning with me about as slow as i could go, flaps down and buzzer goin off constantly. I dont use stall limiter, have not in a couple of years.