Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wolfala on May 30, 2005, 11:53:51 PM
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I read through it, twice - and find it worthy discourse.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn29.html (http://) Article link (http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn29.html)
May 29, 2005
BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
Following Sunday's vote in France, on Wednesday Dutch voters get to express their opinion on the proposed ''European Constitution.'' Heartening to see democracy in action, notwithstanding the European elite's hysterical warnings that, without the constitution, the continent will be set back on the path to Auschwitz. I haven't seen the official ballot, but the choice seems to be: "Check Box A to support the new constitution; check Box B for genocide and conflagration."
Alas, this tactic doesn't seem to have worked. So, a couple of days before the first referendum, Jean-Claude Juncker, the "president" of the European Union, let French and Dutch voters know how much he values their opinion:
"If at the end of the ratification process, we do not manage to solve the problems, the countries that would have said No, would have to ask themselves the question again," "President" Juncker told the Belgian newspaper Le Soir.
Got that? You have the right to vote, but only if you give the answer your rulers want you to give. But don't worry, if you don't, we'll treat you like a particularly backward nursery school and keep asking the question until you get the answer right. Even America's bossiest nanny-state Democrats don't usually express their contempt for the will of the people quite so crudely.
Juncker is a man from Luxembourg, a country two-thirds the size of your rec room, and, under the agreeably clubby EU arrangements, he gets to serve as "president" without anything so tiresome as having to be voted into the job by "ordinary people." His remarks capture precisely the difference between the new Europe and the American republic.
Sick in bed a couple of months back, I started reading A Declaration of Interdependence: Why America Should Join the World by Will Hutton, and found it such a laugh I was soon hurling my medication away and doing cartwheels round the room. Hutton was a sort of eminence grise to Tony Blair, at least in his pre-warmongering pre-Bush-poodle phase. Hutton is the master of the dead language of statism that distinguishes the complacent Europhile from a good percentage of Americans, not all of them Republicans.
That said, even as a fully paid-up Eurobore, Hutton's at pains to establish how much he loves America: "I enjoy Sheryl Crow and Clint Eastwood alike, delight in Woody Allen . . .''
I'd wager he's faking at least two of these enthusiasms. As for the third, Woody Allen is the man the French government turned to for assistance with a commercial intended to restore their nation's image in America after anger at post-9/11 Gallic obstructionism began to have commercial implications for France. In the advertisement, Woody said he disliked the notion of renaming French fries ''freedom fries.'' What next, he wondered. Freedom kissing?
Despite the queasy mental image of Woody French-kissing, I'm with him on that one: If you don't like the phrase ''French fries,'' there's a perfectly good British word: ''chip.'' It conveniently covers both the menu item, and what the French have on their shoulder. That the French government could think that an endorsement by Woody Allen would improve their standing with the American people is itself a sad testament to the ever-widening Atlantic chasm. And that Will Hutton could think his appreciation of Woody is proof of his own pro-Americanism only widens the gap by another half-mile.
But, having brandished his credentials, Hutton says that it's his ''affection for the best of America that makes me so angry that it has fallen so far from the standards it expects of itself.'' The great Euro-thinker is not arguing that America is betraying the Founding Fathers, but that the Founding Fathers themselves got it hopelessly wrong. He compares the American and French Revolutions, and decides the latter was better because instead of the radical individualism of the 13 colonies the French promoted ''a new social contract.''
Well, you never know. It may be the defects of America's Founders that help explain why the United States has lagged so far behind France in technological innovation, economic growth, military performance, standard of living, etc. Entranced by his Europhilia, Hutton insists that "all western democracies subscribe to a broad family of ideas that are liberal or leftist."
Given that New Hampshire has been a continuous democracy for two centuries longer than Germany, this seems a doubtful proposition. It would be more accurate to say that almost all European nations subscribe to a broad family of ideas that are statist. Or, as Hutton has it, "the European tradition is much more mindful that men and women are social animals and that individual liberty is only one of a spectrum of values that generate a good society."
Precisely. And it's the willingness to subordinate individual liberty to what Hutton calls "the primacy of society" that has blighted the continent for over a century: Statism -- or "the primacy of society" -- is what fascism, Nazism, communism and now European Union all have in common. In fairness, after the first three, European Union seems a comparatively benign strain of the disease -- not a Blitzkrieg, just a Bitzkrieg, an accumulation of fluffy trivial pan-European laws that nevertheless takes for granted that the natural order is a world in which every itsy-bitsy activity is licensed and regulated and constitutionally defined by government.
That's why Will Hutton feels almost physically insecure when he's in one of the spots on the planet where the virtues of the state religion are questioned.
"In a world that is wholly private," he says of America, "we lose our bearings; deprived of any public anchor, all we have are our individual subjective values to guide us." He deplores the First Amendment and misses government-regulated media, which in the EU ensures that all public expression is within approved parameters (left to center-left). "Europe," he explains, "acts to ensure that television and radio conform to public interest criteria."
"Public interest criteria" doesn't mean criteria that the public decide is in their interest. It means that the elite -- via various appointed bodies -- decide what the public's interest is. Will Hutton is a member of the European elite, so that suits him fine. But it's never going to catch on in America -- I hope.
As European "president" Juncker spelled out to the French and Dutch electorates, a culture that subordinates the will of the people to the "primacy of society" is unlikely to take no for an answer. And, if you ignore referendum results, a frustrated citizenry turns to other outlets.
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Ahhh...
I think we have found the guy who herited Rip's "Cut'n'Paste" duty :)
What are your thoughts about it ?
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btw in civilized world "Chips" and "French Fries" are two completely different things and I have to question the writer's intelligence when he's mixing these two.
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But I love cut and paste...but save as works better when hunting around for boobies.
But I love a writer who can molest a metaphor with the best of'm.
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If I might offer mine..
The author seems to have a nice case of the bellybutton at europe. Not much substance, and the point seems kinda phishy, but he's a heluva clever wordsmith.
I stand in aw(e) and may I add a 'schit'?
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Well that Steyn isn't as lost as it looks like:
"Nato will not be around circa 2015 - which is why the Americans are talking it up right now. An organisation that represents the fading residual military will of mostly post-military nations is marginally less harmful than the EU, which is the embodiment of their pacifist delusions. But, either way, there's not a lot to talk about. Try to imagine significant numbers of French, German or Belgian troops fighting alongside American forces anywhere the Yanks are likely to find themselves in the next decade or so: it's not going to happen."
:aok
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I enjoyed the nice piece about Cricket:
Excrept 1 -------
"if the media hadn't spent the last 3-1/2 years bending over backwards to be super-sensitive to the, ah, touchiness of the Muslim world -- until the opportunity for a bit of lurid Bush-bashing proved too much to resist. In a way, both the U.S. media and those wacky rioters in the Afghan-Pakistani hinterlands are very similar, two highly parochial and monumentally self-absorbed tribes living in isolation from the rest of the world and prone to fanatical irrational indestructible beliefs -- not least the notion that you can flush a 950-page book down one of Al Gore's eco-crazed federally mandated low-flush toilets, a claim no editorial bigfoot thought to test for himself in Newsweek's executive washroom."
Excrept 2 ---------------
"As for the wackiness of Muslim fanatics, well, up to a point. But, you know, we've been told ever since 9/11 that the allegedly seething ''Muslim street'' was about to explode, and for four years it's remained as somnolent as a suburban cul-de-sac on a weekday afternoon. Invade their countries, topple their rulers, bomb their infrastructure from the first day of Ramadan to the last, arrest their terrorists, hold them at Gitmo for half a decade, initiate reforms setting the Arab world on the first rung of the ladder to political and economic liberty, and the seething Muslim street gives one almighty shrug.
In October 2001 Faizal Aqtub Siddiqi, president-general of the International Muslims Organization, warned that the bombing of Afghanistan would create 1,000 Osama bin Ladens. In April 2003, Egypt's President Mubarak warned that the bombing of Iraq would create 100 bin Ladens. So right there you got a 90 percent reduction in the bin Laden creation program -- just by bombing a second country! Despite the best efforts to rouse the Muslim street, its attitude has remained: Start the jihad without me. The short history of the last four years is: They're nuts but not that nuts."
Excrept 3 -------------
"It's not the mobs, so much as the determination of the elites to keep their peoples in a state of ignorance. The most educationally repressive form of Islam, for example, is funded and promoted by Saudi princes who, though not as handsome as Imran, also spend a lot of time in the West -- gambling, drinking, womanizing and indulging other tastes that even the wildest night on the tiles in Riyadh just can't sate. Whereas most advanced societies believe that an educated population is vital to the national interest, many Muslim elites seem to have concluded than an uneducated population is actually far more useful. And, when you look at Saudi funding of radical madrassahs in hitherto moderate Muslim regions from the Balkans to Indonesia, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that they're having great success de-educating hitherto relatively savvy parts of the world.
This disaster took a combination of factors. We can't do much about Muslim fanatics; we probably can't do much about our self-worshipping vanity media whose reflexive counter-tribalism has robbed it of all sense of perspective or proportion. But we ought to apply pressure on the link between the two worlds: the self-serving elites who enjoy the privileges of the West even as they exploit their co-religionists' ignorance of it. That's just not cricket, is it?"
Smart cookie for sure.
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Wow, yet another factually flawed piece from one of the tame journos belonging to corrupt far-right anti-EU press baron and team Bush cheerleader Conrad Black.
Who would have thought it?
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Im gonna vote no just because the euro screwed us up.
Im tired that our little country pays for other countrys to get better.
In spain they voted yes so probably they got better with the euro.
But it screwed in my wallet.
Banks admit they overrated the euro by 10%.
Do i see my money back? i guess no
Than all store prices slowly tuned up to old guilder prices so all gets about double the price.
Guess where they calculated correctly.
Yep that my salary.
Screw europe screw the euro.
We better get dollars.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Screw europe screw the euro.
We better get dollars.
You must be an undercover American. You had me goin' there when you mentioned the Guilder, but my guess is you're really from Illinois.
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I wish Bug would get his dollar too... Bug You know that Euro is 30% more valuable than Dollar is when compared to situation couple years back?
Anyways voters like Bug are the problem;
They don't know what they are voting for but because they think either their government or EU somehow screwed them they will get their "revenge" this way.
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Funny thing is that the revenge will just mess them up even more, this time by their very own hand. Excellent thinking.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Than all store prices slowly tuned up to old guilder prices so all gets about double the price.
Didn't happen here. Infact many prices have come down recently.
I've been to Netherlands a few times after the switch to Euro. All the prices were considerably lower than here, and about the same as in Germany or any other country in the region. If the prices did indeed double, they were too low in the first place and inflation was inevitable, regardles of the switch to euro.
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Isnt the "Referendum" in the Netherlands only a "for info" vote? I thought the decision was up to the parliament?
Not sure, just asking.
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In Spain, prices of most everyday stuff have doubled since the introduction of the Euro.
1 Euro was about 170 of our old pesetas, but most shops, bars, retailers etc... used 1 Euro = 100 pesetas for their conversions.
Typical example: a coffee at a bar was about 120 pts, and they went straight for 1,20 Euro (so 200+ pts) and have climbed now to 1,40 or 1,50, more than doubling the price since the intoduction of the Euro.
But that's not the Euro fault, is just collective greediness and a de facto "reverse competition" among sellers, which as soon as someone raised their prices, followed suit ASAP.
Spain has benefited greatly from the EU in the last 20 years. Our road keeping, church restorations, bussiness starting incentives, R&D projects, etc... have been funded by Dutch, German, French and Brit people, but is well understood that now Poland, the Baltic states, etc... need the propping up more than ourselves, and we'll have to make do with what we have.
The parties opposing the EU constitution in Spain were the extreme-left, extreme-right and local nationalists. So, the result was about right considering that.
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yep its my revenche to those money grabbing politicians.
their salary went up for 30%
while they tell us not to increase more than 1,5%
fk em
Most dutch are tired of it just like me .
And the netherlands are going to say no.
Things not getting expensive??
open ur eyes
a simple fried firites costed me way back about 1.75 guilder now its about 2 euro.
Stupidly we all swallow the euroshiat
In Spain, prices of most everyday stuff have doubled since the introduction of the Euro.
yep u guys upraded looks like u got more euros for pesetas than we got for our guilder.
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europe has, is and always will be a socialist quagmire. europe and things european should be avoided as much as is possible by all Americans. the only satisfactory solution for us is that when the euros won't play nice with each other again ( hmmm any time now given precedent) and after we go in and make things right again (for the fourth time) we should just make the whole place an amusement park for Americans so we can enjoy the colorful costumes and the funny shoes. in fairness some of the beer ain't bad but that's about it.
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Better than german wanna be yankees.
Those are the kind really to evade.
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Bug the Euro didn't change how much does your fries cost to you but your stores and hamburger joints.
You have brains; try to use them at least sometimes.
Let's make it easier for you: Did the price of your fries jump to 2,5x what it was in one night in 1999?
I don't think so.
What happened was that your shopkeepers found out that people (= You) don't know how to calculate prices in Euros and they found out easy way to increase their incoming.
In here shops had to put price in both currencies available; in FiMs and in Euros.
That way we could see immediately if the seller was trying to screw us with prices.
I'd say it's You who should open Your eyes and come back to reality.
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BUG, you dream of an isolated country with stabile prices ?
lol welcome to the 21. Century! How long could you enjoy it
to not be a global player? it would function only for short
time and then it would be to late to enter the EU because
it would cost you much much more then.
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So im the only one here complaining i guess not.
This is not finland btw. oh and i could imagine the alcohol is cheaper as in finland so yes u where happy when u visited holland.
What about denmark and The UK they fare well still don't they.
screw the euro
screw europe
holland uber alles
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I got as far as nanny state then lost interest due to political bias...........
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
So im the only one here complaining i guess not.
This is not finland btw.
What about denmark and The UK they fare well still don't they.
screw the euro
screw europe
holland uber alles
good for you! now what about the funny shoes?
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yeah ban all nikes acsics tigers converse shoes buy adidas .
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Bug - be happy that you actually can vote. We germans weren't even asked.
The main problem lies IMO elsewhere. It's not the Euro or the bureaucrats in Brussels - it's the speed of the changes within the EU. I mean sixty years ago we Euros (and half of the world) were beating up each other and finding new ways of killing the other. Then we went into Cold War for 40 years which did not help friendship between countries and especially people, either.
And now these fat-prettythanged Eurocrats expect us to cheer for Europe, give up national sovereignty for a dubious parliament and let us be ruled by folks we don't know and we can't control? :rolleyes:
I think the voting in France - as well as the coming one in the Netherlands - will show one thing:
The idea of Europe is not dead, but you can't push it through in just two decades. It will take time - maybe a generation or two.
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The new europe
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39080000/jpg/_39080474_euro_gal4.jpg)
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Originally posted by Momus--
Wow, yet another factually flawed piece from one of the tame journos belonging to corrupt far-right anti-EU press baron and team Bush cheerleader Conrad Black.
Who would have thought it?
WTG !
Attack the substance/writer and the source, then for good measure tie them to Bush..
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Originally posted by Krusher
WTG !
Attack the substance/writer and the source, then for good measure tie them to Bush..
Whatever. Conrad Black owns the Chicago Sun-Times. He is a corrupt press baron currently facing charges from your own SEC over his fraudulent activities. He is an avowed anti-european pro-Israel/US right wing activist and has no shame in interfering editorially when it suits him, and I quote:
"If editors disagree with us they should disagree with us when they're no longer in our employ...The buck stops with ownership. I am responsible for meeting the payroll; therefore I will ultimately determine what the papers say and how they're going to be run."
Mark Steyn is a Conrad Black hack through and through. I am familiar enough with his UK output to know before reading the article cited that it will be long on exageration and short on fact. A reading of the article confirms this; in between the bouts of hyperbolic masturbation Steyn tries to address at least one factual issue and fails miserably since he can't even get Jean-Claude Juncker's role right. Furthermore while Will Hutton might indeed be a crashing bore, he is an order of magnitude more erudite than Mark Steyn.
But after all, this is just an Op-Ed piece that doesn't even try to masquerade as a factual article (as is typical for Steyns output) so I am quite within my rights to attack the source since it has the utmost relevance to the credibility of the article.
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Hmmm......Bug you sound like one of them real Euro's that I talk to on the street.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
This is not finland btw. oh and i could imagine the alcohol is cheaper as in finland so yes u where happy when u visited holland.
Well... At least the drugs cost the same as before so it's not all that bad.
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Originally posted by Staga
I wish Bug would get his dollar too... Bug You know that Euro is 30% more valuable than Dollar is when compared to situation couple years back?
Anyways voters like Bug are the problem;
They don't know what they are voting for but because they think either their government or EU somehow screwed them they will get their "revenge" this way.
Well I can not speak for bug, but I too will vote no, not that I am against Europe, But until the EU get there **** together I will vote against it,
When you talked about the EURO, Bug is right the prices here dubbed over night and the government let it happen (granted it's the people doing it not the EURO)
But Right now I pay 52% of my income for taxes, (This Sucks) which part of that is going to the EU to support the other member states which is ok, but make it fair for everyone right now the Dutch pay 2-10 Times the amount per person than the other member states again the government let it happen,
This is not to mention the fact, that the Government is now telling us that the Euro - Guilder conversion was 10-20% overvalued... what will the government due about it? Nothing....
Then we look at the Beget short commings, according to the EU rules it can not be more than 3% of the GNP, or you get fined and can not use EU funding etc....
How ever Germany & France + a few others are over the limited and what happens? not a ****ing thing... But Here the government raised taxes & cut programs to stay under the limit.
So again Until the playing field is level for ALL member states the Vote will be NO.
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Heater,
How do you want the eastern states to pay the same amount we do? Impossible right now... they have 1/10th of the purchasing power we have. (And still, they complain that we don't give them enough...). Like someone here above said... It will take a longer time to get there, we will need at least to wait for the eastern EU countries to come to a higher economic value before that can be done.
Some points of the constitutions aim towards that, and of course... we're the ones paying for it. Don't get me wrong...I'm for the "Yes", but it needs more "long term thinking" than what the nay-sayers are capable.
Mora, the drugs are more expensive.... not that I would know, but... ;)
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Pastries have become unbelievably expensive since euro, at least in Finland, while many other products haven't.
Before euro I was able to buy a certain bun for about 3.5 FIM (euro = ~5.97 FIM) and today it costs 1.20 to 1.40 per bun (~7.7 FIM).
Thats just ridiculous, and I don't even eat the buns anymore because of the insane pricing.
A year back I heard an old couple wondering together out loud how pastries have become so expensive so quickly.
I wonder whats the thing with over 200% inflation?
Perhaps greed.
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Sorry saint got kids to feed i just say no.
Im not against europe but my wallet is.
our counrty worked hard to get its wellfare as it has today.
Im not willing to cure other countrys who screwed up.
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That's what I'm saying BUG, it's not all black & white ... but I still trust something good's comming out of this in the future. (I do, however understand your concern ... it's around 3 € for a beer here... I used to pay 27 Bef for one before 1999, that's about 0.60€)
Fishu...pastries? WTF??? :D
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So?
I've paid 4,50€ for a small cup of bad coffee. That was last time we docked boat in that casino's anchorage :D
Price of beer has been quite stable in here; I don't think the price has changed much in last 5 years.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Fishu...pastries? WTF??? :D
it's the lil itty bitty edible cookies with tassles the rooskie 'bed workers' hang on their nippilies. Staga saw one that wuz wearing eight at a time.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Heater,
How do you want the eastern states to pay the same amount we do? Impossible right now... they have 1/10th of the purchasing power we have. (And still, they complain that we don't give them enough...). Like someone here above said... It will take a longer time to get there, we will need at least to wait for the eastern EU countries to come to a higher economic value before that can be done.
snip......
Saw the point I am making is not for the Eastern States....(should have been more claer on that)
it's for the western states.....or the "founding member states"...
once that is on a level playing field it might be different.
one point that comes to mind is Germany & France for the Budget deficit for the last 2 years... the exceed the limit and in place of playing by the rules they, first tried to change them, then when that did not work, they just ignore them.
if I am not mistaken
The Netherlands Pays €190.00 pp
Germany is somthing like €78.00 pp
France is somthing like € 43.00 pp
these are just a few examples.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
We better get dollars.
I wish you had dolars 4 years ago... i realy wish..
you probably didnt see progress of dolar for last 5 years did you ?
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Originally posted by Staga
So?
I've paid 4,50€ for a small cup of bad coffee. That was last time we docked boat in that casino's anchorage :D
Price of beer has been quite stable in here; I don't think the price has changed much in last 5 years.
umm beer cost like 0.5€ here ... for 3€ you have proper good lunch.
are you from same EU ? :D
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Im not willing to cure other countrys who screwed up.
Well .. and what do you want... cheap poor neighbour countries, where you can buy cheap vacation, car.... cheap stuff ?
hahaha... lol
You should realize, that world is made by people. Even that most FEKED UP country is run by people. Do you realy think that Eastern europ want to stay in position .... cheap playground for ritch westerners?
markets are open... now face challenche from us... eastern underhumans :D
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Originally posted by lada
umm beer cost like 0.5€ here ... for 3€ you have proper good lunch.
are you from same EU ? :D
Beer(0.5 l) 2.5€-4.5€
Lunch 5€-9€
Those are general prices, there are exceptions to both directions.
Average income 2500€/month(gross)
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Originally posted by mora
Beer(0.5 l) 2.5€-4.5€
Lunch 5€-9€
Those are general prices, there are exceptions to both directions.
Average income 2500€/month(gross)
Beer: around 1.5 €
Lunch: 7-10 € (standard, nothing fancy)
Avg. Income 2000€/month (gross)
Daniel
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A "nothing fancy" Spanish lunch would be at least 20€ here. :)
Groceries are "only" 1.5-2 times as expensive.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Isnt the "Referendum" in the Netherlands only a "for info" vote? I thought the decision was up to the parliament?
Not sure, just asking.
I think so.
But they expect that parlament will reflect will of people. :D
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Originally posted by mora
Beer(0.5 l) 2.5€-4.5€
Lunch 5€-9€
Those are general prices, there are exceptions to both directions.
Average income 2500€/month(gross)
yeep AVG income here is around 550-600 € (gross)
Good income is around 1000 € (gross)
[hard to get it outside capital]
And if you are excelent in something you can make around 2000€ (gross)
Teacher at high school is around 400€
And prices are ... beer 0.5€ .. lunch 2-4€ depend on weigh of food and place :)
Chinese restaurants are around 2-2.5€ per food... just food.
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The vote in the netherlands failed, btw. Look forward to a lively discussion if parliament decides the people don't know what's good for them and fixes their 'incorrect' decision.
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because i deal with art and high end audio equipment i can say the people pay more since the euro has arrived.
its just the case that in germany the most prices are today the same in euro like they was in deutsche mark in 1999.
so for me as businessman, i like the euro a lot, it makes the people pay the double price for the same things.
and when you have good sources you can buy a bratwurst for the same price they has cost in 1999.
i support our local german eu professionals also because its our alternative plan to take world leadership in 2045 after a global eu
military initiative ;]
dont get me wrong, its just a great time to be alive.
sorry for my bad english, i raised in east germany , we had only russian there in school.
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Orel, move here... a bus driver makes around 4K/month.
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What scholz ?
Im not gonna pay ur boat so u can slaughter whales like a totally tubular barbarian.
And holland voted no btw.
seems im not the only one thinking this.
And u should have quoted holland uber alles.
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our submarines take care of those whaling slaughtery boats.
now lets talk serious.
Why didnt norway participate yet hypocryt.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1099100867_thread_direction.gif)
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So u dont have many friends there also.
:D
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The Dutch no is also a no against our gouvernment.
Just cant stand this superdork anymore
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Hey!! He's almost as purdy as OUR PM :D
(http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/12/11/nice.agree/story.verhofstadt.reynders.jpg)
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Its a no against the fast chance without asking what we really want.
That belgian PM looks like a pervert :D
oh and why wait when they could fall over this one.
:aok
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Being a perv is part of our nationality, ever heard the name "Dutroux" ? :D
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So much for all the worries that the EU will turn into some kind of superstate with one language, one currency and a powerful military with tendency to interfere in other countries like........... well never mind.
No the Dutch and French votes prove that Europe is like it always was. Just a bunch of disparate countries each with their own separate agenda and nationalistic tendencies. As I read it, part of the reason for the no vote in France was that they were afraid the EU was heading down the road of Anglo American style economics. The kind of economics that makes America so successful and the kind of economics that made my country one of the richest in Europe after years of being a second rate supplier of immigrants to the US and Britain. The kind of economics that the newly joined Eastern Europeans are copying having seen how well it worked in Ireland. Which means one day all old left leaning social welfare countries like France and Germany and it seems Holland will be in decline and be supported by the newly affluent Poland, Hungary etc etc.
I'm neither in favour or against the European constitution. In time we may get to vote on it. Then I'll decide. But if a no vote means the tired old socialist systems of Germany and France will get the upper hand in Europe then I want this constitution.
Both France and Germany have high unemployment and high taxes. We have no unemployment and low taxes. Which would you prefer?
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we have aprox 4 Mill. unemployed, thats aprox the whole Ireland population,
imagine this ;)
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Sholtzie, Dublin is considered to be one of the best places to be in Yurop (Seen in polls posted here by Sandman a while ago, and I've seen other references pointing to this). I've only been there a couple of times myself, and I failed to see why... but maybe that's why I'm not a tour guide. (Maybe I visited the wrong spots as well).
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Ireland is rich? When did this happen? A friend of mine worked in Ireland for about a year; she told me everything was worn down and that the country looked dirt poor. She moved to Scotland.
Irelands growth is averaging 7% in 1995-2004. Per capita GDP is 10% above that of the four big European economies and the second highest in the EU behind Luxembourg.
It sounds like it is doing well to me.
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As I read it, part of the reason for the no vote in France was that they were afraid the EU was heading down the road of Anglo American style economics. The kind of economics that makes America so successful and the kind of economics that made my country one of the richest in Europe after years of being a second rate supplier of immigrants to the US and Britain. The kind of economics that the newly joined Eastern Europeans are copying having seen how well it worked in Ireland. Which means one day all old left leaning social welfare countries like France and Germany and it seems Holland will be in decline and be supported by the newly affluent Poland, Hungary etc etc.
Don't forget Ireland has done very well out of European subsidies, receiving 3 - 6% of GDP per year from European central funds throught the 1980s and 1990s (and Ireland, as of 2004, still got more money per head of population out of Europe than any other country. The UK, France and Germany are all net contributors, not beneficaries)
Certainly Ireland's economic policies have helped, it's quite easy for a country to piss away incoming foreign aid, but those low taxes have come in part because other Europeans were picking up your tax bill. (as of 2001 European subsidies were still worth an extra 4% on income tax)
I don't think the rest of Europe is going to be prepared to give the new European countries enough money for them to go the same way as Ireland. (In fact it's not even possible. Ireland has a small population, to extend the same level of aid to all the new eastern European countries would be prohibitive)
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couple of points.. is that guy in the picture a product of socialised "dentistry" ( I use the term loosely)?
and... it is now "selfish" to want to get the standard of living of your own country up over that of some former enemy who screwed up his own economy with some backward tyranny that he claimed was suprerior at the time?
and..
It sure looks like it is about time for the euro barbarians to invite everyone to another of their world war parties.
lazs
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Being a perv is part of our nationality, ever heard the name "Dutroux" ? :D
That's what I'll use If I ever need to offend a Belgian...:) :( :rolleyes:
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with a view like that in the mirror, no wonder they turn their grief towards the US
lol lol lol
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Well, sorry Eagler... I'd rather butt*** one of those guys than Condy! that thing is scarier than an alien!
... and again, I ask you: Point me to a thread where I "turned my grief" towards the US. Look hard.
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Originally posted by Krusher
Irelands growth is averaging 7% in 1995-2004. Per capita GDP is 10% above that of the four big European economies and the second highest in the EU behind Luxembourg.
It sounds like it is doing well to me.
Using the growth of a country which was retarded is not really fair.
Plus a good part of this growth is due to the subside Ireland got from the EU.
Let speak again when they will have contributed like the others.
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Nashwan, Straffo and Gscholz that is all bull manure and hogwash. I don't have time to answer fully right now. I'll get back to the subject later.
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Originally posted by straffo
Using the growth of a country which was retarded is not really fair.
Plus a good part of this growth is due to the subside Ireland got from the EU.
Let speak again when they will have contributed like the others.
You seem to have read more into my post than was intended.
CPxxx stated that Ireland is rich, GS disputed the statement and suggested it was not.
The data I posted did not state "how or why" Ireland was doing well, only that it appears to be.
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Ok , so I state Ireland is using almost unfair practices and dumping to atract foreign enterprises.
And lastly Ireland is not rich or it's pretty new.
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Originally posted by GScholz3
You guys will get front row seating as usual ... or perhaps this time we'll bring the party home to you! :)
May not have to Scholzy. I got a feeling we may have one all by our selves soon enough. Your more than welcome to join the party though as ong as you choose the "right" side that it. :D
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Gscholz when was your friend in Ireland and where? Just today I drove across the country from the west and dirt poor it is not. Ten years ago maybe. Even eight years ago. Take my word for it we are no longer dirt poor. It's no paradise but it's getting better all the time. Right now a thousand Poles a week are arriving to look for work here. Most of them find it.
Nashwan, Subsidies, yes we needed them and in fact is that not a textbook case of how they should work? They were or are used to build infrastructure. This infrastructure was used to attract foreign investment, mostly American who are also attracted to a low tax environment and a business friendly environment. On top of that income tax is low so that people get to keep the money they earn. That is where the economic success comes from. Soon Ireland will be net contributor to the EU propping up France and Germany no doubt.
Any country can do it. But they won't They'd rather pay high taxes and work short hours and maintain enormous numbers of unemployed. Straffo there is nothing unfair about creating good jobs for your people. Ireland is rich and it's pretty new, ten years ago we were second rate now we're second to Luxembourg. The figures speak for themselves.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Any country can do it. But they won't They'd rather pay high taxes and work short hours and maintain enormous numbers of unemployed.
So true. Ireland is in a remote geographical location and you still do so well.:aok Perhaps I should head over your way. Too bad I don't the understand the language.
Estonia is another exemplary country.
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If you Yuropeeins don't sort yourselves out we gonna send our Prime Minister over to sort you out!
You thought Stalin was bad... meet Auntie Helen
(http://www.dnevnik.com.hr/admin/upload/images/1089892220Helen_Clark_AP.jpg)
(http://rodneyhide.com/Diary/wp-images/uploads/helen clark.jpg)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
If you Yuropeeins don't sort yourselves out we gonna send our Prime Minister over to sort you out!
You thought Stalin was bad... meet Auntie Helen
(http://www.dnevnik.com.hr/admin/upload/images/1089892220Helen_Clark_AP.jpg)
(http://rodneyhide.com/Diary/wp-images/uploads/helen clark.jpg)
BARK*BARK*BARK*BARK...
*sniff*
YIPE,YIPE,YIPE,YIPE,YIPE, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe
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The EU constitution is 468
articles long.... the US constitution was...13., and to make it worse, was written mostly by a failed socialist president (D'Estaing is correct spelling?)
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Yah... Norway looks good on paper.
But.. you live there. That's gotta pork the numbers.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
BARK*BARK*BARK*BARK...
*sniff*
YIPE,YIPE,YIPE,YIPE,YIPE, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe, yipe
We are not amused...
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/helen.jpg)
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The problem with Europe is they have 93 different Nations all crammed together in a space smaller than Texas. Of course they're gonna fight.
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over what? who's got the grey poupon?
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GS,
Whats with the new posting account?
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is it just me or is there something about Auntie Helen's pose?
(http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mstuart/auntiehelen.jpg)
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Originally posted by bj229r
The EU constitution is 468
articles long.... the US constitution was...13., and to make it worse, was written mostly by a failed socialist president (D'Estaing is correct spelling?)
d'Estaing and if he is socialist or failed then I'm your grand mother.
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Vulcan, I wish I hadn't seen those... I will never sleep again!
Gscholtz, please... never, ever type the words "Luxembourg" and "Military" in the same sentence, or I will die laughing :D
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I think the whole thrust of the Dutch and French NO votes this week was not about the constitution (few people are likely to have read it in full) but a vote against the European parliamentary machine, and the EU's "one size fits all" approach to the member states. That, plus the fact that people don't want to be governed by an unelected assembly of politicians who treat the views of the Euro electorate with contempt. By that I mean guys like Jacques Chirac who, as soon as the result became known, are quick to point out that the show will go on - the referenda "won't make any difference - we're going to press on regardless". I think people have had enough of the Tony Blair style of doing things. The former leader of the Conservative party, Iain Duncan Smith, nailed it during an interview with John Simpson on Channel 4 news. As he put it, the Chiracs of this world simply interpret the result of the referenda as the "wrong" result, and look for ways to bludgeon the electorate into voting for the "right" result.
I have come to think of the EU parliament as a graveyard for failed politicians. I think it's the ultimate irony that the former Labour leader Neil Kinnock, who lost two consecutive general elections, should hold such high office there. In the 1970s/early 80s, Neil Kinnock was one of the most outspoken critics of the EU and was vehemently opposed to Britain's continued membership. Of course, all that changed when he could see the opportunities that it presented. For him, that was a job at the EU in 1992 on a tax free salary of around £140,000 with accommodation expenses met by the EU, and a generous cash allowance for "other expenses". I don't know much about Kinnock's role these days. I heard he was in charge of rooting out corruption, but was found to be sweeping it under the carpet. If true, the cap certainly fits.
Typical of the EU's "one size fits all" approach was last year when the ten new members joined, and it was announced that each would receive a grant of £3m for their fishing industries. But wait - three of those new member states (Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia) are land locked countries and do not have coastlines. Typical of the EU's "railroad it through regardless" approach was for them then to say "Oh, well they have rivers that can be fished..."
The EU was formed initially in 1957 under the Treaty of Rome. It was a trading bloc. In English, it was known as the "Common Market". As such, I was very much in favour of it. I couldn't see any advantage to trade barriers, quotas, and tariffs on each other's products, so it was good when that ended, and good also that we can live and work in any of the other member states without having to apply for citizenship etc., and good that in most cases we can move freely between countries, eg. drive across borders without having to stop for passport stamping.
So in 1975, when Britain held a referendum to decide upon Britain's continued membership, I voted YES. Most people felt the same way, and the vote was carried 2-1.
But the "Common Market" has undergone a metamorphosis. First it became the EEC (European Economic Community) and then simply the EC (European Community) perhaps when it was decided it was no longer economic! Now it's the EU, but it's not about trade any more. It's about being governed from Brussels, and being subjected to a parliamentary machine whose laws take primacy over the laws of the individual member states.
To anyone whose been watching from the sidelines this past few years, it seems pretty clear that the MEPs don't give a toss about the will of the people they supposedly represent - hence all this talk about pressing on regardless of what the population says in those countries which have at least been allowed to voice their opinion. And it's that that the people of France and the Netherlands voted against this week. If Britain were to hold a referendum, the result would be the same - and for the same reasons.
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Hey Cpxxx, I just took a quick look at the HDI numbers:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/
HDI rank
Norway 1
Ireland 10
Luxembourg 15
Human development index
(HDI) value
Norway 0.956
Ireland 0.936
Luxembourg 0.933
Long-term unemployment
(% of labour force)
Norway 0.2
Ireland 1.2
Luxembourg 0.7
Health expenditure per capita
(PPP US$)
Norway 2,920
Ireland 1,935
Luxembourg 2,905
Life expectancy at birth
(years)
Norway 78.9
Ireland 77.0
Luxembourg 78.4
Public expenditure on education
(as % of total government expenditure)
Norway 16.2
Ireland 13.5
Luxembourg 8.5
Public expenditure on education
(% of GDP)
Norway 6.8
Ireland 4.3
Luxembourg 4.1
GDP per capita
(US$)
Norway 41,974
Ireland 30,982 (second to Luxembourg ... yeah right)
Luxembourg 47,354
Military expenditure
(% of GDP)
Norway 2.1
Ireland 0.7
Luxembourg 0.9
Well, Ireland does have a higher HDI rank than Luxembourg, but that's to be expected since Luxembourg isn't much a real country, but more of a tax paradise French province like Morocco. 10th HDI rank is very respectable indeed, but to say that Ireland is second to Luxembourg in wealth is more than a stretch of the truth.
No wonder the Norwegians are paying $35 for a pizza with extra cheese. Your purchasing power is way lower than Luxembourg or Ireland.
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Originally posted by bj229r
and to make it worse, was written mostly by a failed socialist president (D'Estaing is correct spelling?)
Valéry Giscard D'Estaing was a Gaullist conservative who lost the 1981 presidential election to Mitterand, who was a socalist.
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That's only GDP per capita, not real purchasing power. I'm not in the mood for searching real purchasing power figures. But I know that Norway is only a little if any better than Finland, which is on the same level as Portugal.
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Daniel... Didn't go to Spain very often, but yes... I tend to agree that they are HOT too :)
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Hey Cpxxx, I just took a quick look at the HDI numbers:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/
.
What does any of that have to do your original claim that Ireland is poor? Even your stats seem to prove that statement to be false?
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Originally posted by GScholz3
What part of "Purchasing Power Parity Method" did you not understand? Norway has a GDP per capita of $41,974 . Adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity it is $31,479 per capita. This is still higher than Ireland. Now, was that so difficult to understand?
I'm talking about the purchasing power of normal people in their everyday life. The biggest flaw of the PPP system is that it doesn't take tax rate into account. It also doesn't reflect the prices of everyday goods strongly enough. Even the Big Mac index is better.
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Originally posted by GScholz3
ANY facts at all.
A pizza costs 30$ in Norway and it costs 10$ in Finland. An average Finn earns 2500€/month. An average Norwegian earns 5000€/month. Tax rate is higher in Norway. Do the maths.
That's a joke of course, but gives an idea what I mean.
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Originally posted by GScholz3
What kind of pizza cost $10 in Finland? What does a Grandiosa cost in Findland? It's $4 here. What's your tax rate? Mine is 32% I think (depends on overtime). Yeah, I'll do the numbers ... if you give them to me.
http://www.pizzataxi.fi/default.asp?f=2&t=1&p=200&subp=200
ordinary "Bolognese" 6,50€ and family size (= huge) 11e. In local pizzeria "Pizza of the day" costs 5€
Tax rate from maybe 25% to 30% and if you earn LOTS of money then even more. I'm paying housing loan and it lowers my taxes (part of interests are substracted in taxation) down to 25%; without reduction I paid 33% at the best (or worse...) few years back.
Oh and WTF is a "Grandiosa"?
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Is that what the icebears eat? :D
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Och samma på finska. (http://www.grandiosa.fi/)
I can't believe Staga didn't know Grandiosa.
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Gscholz, Norway has oil and a number or other natural resources other countries are not blessed with. Lucky Norway. Norway also has high taxes. You are welcome to them.
You might be better comparing figures with the likes of Germany or France. By any standards both should be richer than the rest. Until they reform their business and social practises. They will continue to be burdened with millions of unemployed. France may hate the 'Anglo Saxon' style liberal eoonomy. But it works for the Anglo Saxons and others.
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Staga isn't for real, he's one of Airhead's shade accounts ;)
*runs for his life*
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Now... the important issue... if we're going to compare products we have to compare the important stuff like beer?! :)
Typical beer = €2.80 - €3.00 (per 0.5l)
(in Munich)
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All I know is pizzas are coming from special owens and not from a freezer ;)
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I love purse-swinging threads like this one.
Please do continue.
BTW, in the EU, quien es muy macho?
;)
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Gscholz, Norway has oil and a number or other natural resources other countries are not blessed with. Lucky Norway. Norway also has high taxes. You are welcome to them.
You might be better comparing figures with the likes of Germany or France. By any standards both should be richer than the rest. Until they reform their business and social practises. They will continue to be burdened with millions of unemployed. France may hate the 'Anglo Saxon' style liberal eoonomy. But it works for the Anglo Saxons and others.
I don't know why it should be unfair just because Norway got oil ,when your social dumping is just "good business practice".
They are have the chance to have oil, you just cheat for me there is a difference.
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Originally posted by Staga
All I know is pizzas are coming from special owens and not from a freezer ;)
careful!
grandiosa is on my menu tonight! :D
Missus is off duty and at the a spa, so the freezer and oven is my best friend tonight.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Gscholz, Norway has oil and a number or other natural resources other countries are not blessed with. Lucky Norway. Norway also has high taxes. You are welcome to them.
You might be better comparing figures with the likes of Germany or France. By any standards both should be richer than the rest. Until they reform their business and social practises. They will continue to be burdened with millions of unemployed. France may hate the 'Anglo Saxon' style liberal eoonomy. But it works for the Anglo Saxons and others.
I am still waiting for him to back up his claim that Ireland is poor.
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you euro's crack me up... yer all redneck wannabe's.
freakin taco frozen pizza...
LOL!
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Originally posted by Krusher
I am still waiting for him to back up his claim that Ireland is poor.
If you expect an answer from me you won't have ever one for one simple reason : you are a troll
Do you remember from how many thread you have runned away just because your not secure enought to handle the truth ?
Minus habens
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Originally posted by straffo
If you expect an answer from me you won't have ever one for one simple reason : you are a troll
Do you remember from how many thread you have runned away just because your not secure enought to handle the truth ?
Minus habens
screw off
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Reading the thread might help.
Nothing
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Oh well ...
LOL
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Don't feed the minus GS
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Gscholz, I don't think I mentioned the word unfair. I'm just saying you are not comparing like with like. We are catching up after a slow start. Ireland for your information is the second largest exporter of software outside the USA. We have sheep too.
I can totally accept that Norway is richer than Ireland. But you still pay high taxes.
Straffo, you'd better explain to me what 'Social dumping' is supposed to be?
I'm also not sure why you have difficulty in believing that Ireland is rich? Please explain that too. Maybe I can answer you then.
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I thought it was obvious for a English speaker ???
A don't want the Irish regulation in my country exactly like the Irish don't want the french law for abortion.
I'm tired and need to sleep so use a online translator :
Le dumping est une pratique qui consiste à vendre sur les marchés extérieurs à des prix inférieurs à ceux qui sont pratiqués sur le marché national (ou même à des prix inférieurs à l'ensemble des coûts).
Le dumping social, c'est la possibilité de choisir, entre deux législations du travail, celle qui impose le moins d'obligations sociales. Ce qui permet, pour les entreprises, d'avoir un coût de main d'œuvre réduit. Par exemple, si le salaire minimum est moins important dans un autre pays, l'entreprise fera venir des travailleurs de ce pays. Ces travailleurs seront alors soumis aux conditions de leur pays d'origine, plus avantageuses pour l'entreprise. Les travailleurs nationaux craignent cette concurrence qui risque de menacer leurs emplois.
Where did I say Ireland is poor ?
Perhaps I posted something worng or badly translated,I'll re-read the thread tomorow and try to clarify in case I mis-translated my thought.
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Back to the initial topic. LMAO² (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2005/06/dictionary-for-eu-commissioners.html)
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LOL Saw!!
"each word of course means.... yes!"
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Originally posted by Momus--
Valéry Giscard D'Estaing was a Gaullist conservative who lost the 1981 presidential election to Mitterand, who was a socalist.
yup..was wrong:
1926–, French political leader, president of France (1974–81); b. Germany. A member of the national assembly at the age of 29, he was deputy finance minister (1959–62) and finance minister (1962–66) in Charles de Gaulle's government. He held the latter post again in 1969 under President Georges Pompidou, supporting European economic integration and closer ties with the United States. Leader of the Independent Republicans, a conservative group allied with the Gaullists, he ran for president after Pompidou's death in 1974, defeating Socialist François Mitterrand. After losing to Mitterrand in 1981, he returned (1984–89, 1993–97) to the national assembly, playing a major role in unifying France's right wing. Giscard has also served in the European Parliament (1989–93, 1997–). In 2001 he was appointed president of the Convention on the Future of Europe, which was charged with drafting a new constitution for the European Union; the draft failed to win EU approval in 2003, but a revised constitution was signed in 2004
BUT..ya gotta figger, a RIGHTEST in France is probably STILL left of US Democrats;
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Ah now I see and the answer is no. Minimum wage here is Euro 7.65 an hour. Anyone who pays that low has trouble finding and keeping employees. I can see how social dumping might apply to the 'new' countries. Poland and Hungary etc. As it happens the division of the company I work for is closing down. In an example of social dumping they are subcontracting the work to China
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Sure , after rereading faster I need to apologise Cpxxx my reaction and my wording were not correct.
Sorry.
Can't post more I've to setup the BBQ :)
(and eating raw meat is not an option for my wife :p)
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Originally posted by straffo
(and eating raw meat is not an option for my wife :p)
I feel kinda sorry for you ;)
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LOL!
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Originally posted by Vulcan
We are not amused...
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/helen.jpg)
Everyone is hitler (http://beautifulatrocities.com/archives/2005/06/in_the_future_e.html)
What's the tax rate and average cost of living in Ireland?
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Originally posted by stiehl
What's the tax rate and average cost of living in Ireland?
lower than yours/higher than yours
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Well, Ireland does have a higher HDI rank than Luxembourg, but that's to be expected since Luxembourg isn't much a real country, but more of a tax paradise French province like Morocco.
Boy the boys from Casablanca, France are sure confused.
Looks like Norway needs to spend even more on education. ;)
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Originally posted by GScholz3
Mora, do you have numbers to back that up?
Here's a reference to tax rate in Ireland:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/advice/the_tax_system.html
I'm sure you'll find information about the US tax rate somewhere. Same with the CPI number of Ireland.
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Ireland is rich !
Don't make me laugh :lol
If you take away the cash gifts from the EU then Ireland is still a poor backward country, no wonder you voted for the EU constitution, if you rob peter to pay paul then paul will never vote you out will he ?
wipass
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Originally posted by wipass
Ireland is rich !
Don't make me laugh :lol
If you take away the cash gifts from the EU then Ireland is still a poor backward country, no wonder you voted for the EU constitution, if you rob peter to pay paul then paul will never vote you out will he ?
wipass
10 years ago maybe and even when it went Euro ireland was getting significant EU funding for "projects".
But all that is now earning Ireland serious revenue exporting agriculture, software and food stuffs (processed food).
Plus Irish companies now have significant investments abroad (read UK)again particularly in processed foods. And what is the most successful airline to currently operate out of the UK? Ryanair.
Whilst salaries are roughly equitable the average standard of living in Ireland is now higher then the UK due to lower costs.