Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Morpheus on May 31, 2005, 01:13:04 PM
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I was curious as to the usage of the Ta152. I personaly love this plane. I think it is one of the coolest looking planes in the game.
I dont think its worthy of its cost to get it out of the hanger tho. I think its a pig down where the fight is. And if you were to fly it where you'd have any advantage in performance, you wouldnt find anyone else to have an advantage over. Its a novelty plane at best in its current state. And thats a shame.
Thats just my opinion of course. ;)
The La-7 has 32127 kills and has been killed 24935 times.
The Fw 190D-9 has 12756 kills and has been killed 9080 times.
The Ta 152H has 384 kills and has been killed 226 times.
The F4U-1C has 8439 kills and has been killed 3525 times.
The Tempest has 5619 kills and has been killed 922 times.
Those stats are current.. As in today. Its simply a comparison between several planes. The reason I chose the Chog is because it too is perked. At basicly the same cost... And its usage far exceeds that of the Ta152.
It certainly seems to be impacting the MA to the point where it needs to be perked. (Not)
Anyways, threads like this are a dime a dozen, that i know for certain.
I would like to see the Ta, unperked. Even for just a tour... as a "test" if you would. 8 Perks may not make much of a difference, I know they dont to me. The cost that is. But when you see a Ta152, atleast when I see one, I hit it first. Its a "perk" plane... Everyone goes after the perk rides. I highly doubt that it would have that great of an impact on the MA if it were unperked. But I've been wrong before.
I really do NOT understand why it is perked. Where most fights (i would say ALL but i wont) are, D9's, 51s, and La7s just to name a few,can run it down like a 3 legged mangy mut. And unless by the power of god you manage to out turn them and kill them quick, you're going to die. If not from a 1 on 1, then from the horde with dollar signs in their eyes that will soon follow.
Thoughts? :)
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on a side note i was kind of suprised to find it was not re-done with the other 190's
it does not fare as bad now because of the neon perk tag being somewhat gone... try it on the deck ; )
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I'm not really sure why it's perked either, aside from it being a late-war novelty plane.
I say try it for a month without the perks, like you said. I doubt it will cause much whining.
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I did 73. I took it up the other day. I con'd Dipstick into flying one with me lol.
Anyways, I flew at medium to low alt. I ended up on the deck... Thats just the way I am. I get too bored flying up and down. I have to turn...
Make a long story short... I was on my way back home running on fumes, on the deck. I look back to see an La7 on my long 6... 5.5k, 5, 3.5k.. I REALLY didnt want to stick around any longer... But I turned anyways. I brought the La7 within 1k of me, forced an over shot and by the good grace of the AH god, managed to get a shot with 30mms on him.
Before that, I wasnt turning, wasnt slow. Just crusing along at a steady speed. And was still run down as if I was in a P40.
There is nothing spectacular about this plane in its performance down WHERE the fights are. It poses no more of a threat than a D9. Infact, I find that D9s are harder to kill than a Ta because they are that much faster on the deck than a Ta.
To be honest. When I get the urge to take up a Ta... I grab an A8 instead. And I live longer. One, because it doesnt show perk tag inside 800d... And two, its just about as fast. Lastly, it has the firepower.
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Sure, go ahead and unperk the Ta152 right along with the Spit XIV :)
What's the stats on that kite?
Dan/CorkyJr
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I'd fly that cow if it were unperked. As it stands I believe I've flown it twice, and once was when Heretik conned me into it =)
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I like chasing bombers in it. Only problem is, whenI go out looking for serten ### and frenchfries guys, I get jumped by fighters. When I am in a plane without 30mms, I always seem to run into the two death stars :D
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"On April 14, 1945, two Hawker Tempests of 486 (New Zealand) Squadron took off from the Volkel airfield in Holland in order to attack the railway yards at Ludwigslust. As they initiated their low-level attack, three Ta 152s of Stab/JG 301 were scrambled against them from Neustadt-Glewe, five miles away. Within minutes, the German aircraft hurriedly fell upon the New Zealanders. Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground. In the following dogfight at almost tree-top level, Sattler's comrade Oberfeldwebel Willi Reschke displayed the superior maneuverability of the Ta 152 by out-turning and shooting down the Tempest flown by Warrant Officer Mitchell, who had no chance to survive."
notice:
Maneuverability !!! outturning the Tempest !!
since AH1, i think the Ta152 is undermodeled, and perked without reason as long as is modeled worst than P47 , P51 @ high/low alt
http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html?k (http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html?k)
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I would support unperking the TA-152. I might try it a few times more if it were unperked, but I am sure it would not have a destabilizing effect on the current balance of power in the MA. I am 100% sure that unperking the SpitXIV would have a dramaticly higher effect on the MA than the TA-152.
Hey Ghi, you should note your sources there. I like the quote, and I agree that the TA-152 seemes nutered compared to its reputation.
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you know, ive never used this plane yet...
now im gonna have to give it a try
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The Spitfire Mk XIV has 515 kills and has been killed 376 times.
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Looked up a little info for ya Morph.:cool: Only 150 Ta-152,s were manufactured between Jan.1st 1945 untill the soviets over ran the assembly plant in Cottbus Germany.
Most 152,s operated in the close support role, and some flew top-cover over 262 bases to keep the jets from being bounced by allied fighters. Guess it worked cause no 262,s were lost when the 152's were known to be circling the airfields.
Most of the 152,s had the junkers jumo 213E-1 12 cylinder liquid-cooled engine rated at 1750hp for takeoff (2050hp with MW50 boost)(methanol-water) and 1320hp at 32,800 feet(1740hp with GM1 boost)(nitrous oxide)Max speed at sealevel:332mph(350 with MW50 boost)465 mph at 29,530 feet with WM50 boost, 472 mphat 41,010 feet with GM1 boost.Max service ceiling was 48,550 feet with GM1 boost.Initial climb ratewas 3,445 feet/minute with MW50 boost. Weights were 8,642 lbs empty 10,472 lbs normal load , 11,502 lbs max load. Wingspan of 47 feet 4 1/2 inches, length of 35 feet 1 2/3 inches, height 11 feet 1/4 inches, with a wing area of 250.8 square feet.
The 152C was to be fitted with the DB-603 engine , but the plant was captured before the it could go into full production.:cool:
Panman
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Originally posted by ghi
notice:
Maneuverability !!! outturning the Tempest !!
since AH1, i think the Ta152 is undermodeled, and perked without reason as long as is modeled worst than P47 , P51 @ high/low alt
http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html?k (http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html?k)
Not directed at you ghi, but . . . This whole this plane out turns this plane blabla bla, that leads to the 200 coments of "BS, there is no way your plane X could out turn my plane Y" and so on, has to stop. Its meaning less. X outturns Y at what speed? what alt? flat turns or imels? fuel load? pilot? pilot? pilot? What does it mean when a Spit outturns another Spit? Was one of the difective?
I've been "out turned" in SpitVs from flying bricks simply because their pilot knew the bricks envelops.
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Thanks for the info panman. Good stuff.
I am aware that they Ta152 was produced in low numbers. But that begs the question. Does that simple fact make it a perk plane?
At sea lvl it can just barely out pace a spit9. A 51, no chance.
In and around fights in the MA...where most of them are at low to medium altitude... The Ta152 poses no more threat than a D9, a P51D, or a Spit9 (all of which are unperked and over used).
I think unperking it would make it much more fun to fly. A horde sees a perk tag, and they're drawn to that plane like flies on poop. A tempest can hold its own. A Ta is fish bait.
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does it fly like the d9?
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I don't think it should be perked myself. The only way to use it is Bn&Zn or hi alt buff killers.It,s like the P-47 the higher u get the faster it goes. I fly it sometimes & your right. They see that tag & everyone is gunnin for ya:eek: So I guess the best way to use it is keeping the bad guys under ya:cool:
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
does it fly like the d9?
sort of... but that's like saying the F8 flies like the A8. it's a similar plane, but not that similar.
imagine a dora with uber guns, less speed, fragile wings, and a much bigger target.
if it's E is kept really high (never dipped below 325) it will get away from some planes at least to the point of friendly help...
but a dora with a teensy bit of alt will run it down and kill it (not to mention la7 p51 typhoon f4ud and others)
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so in other words.
unless im going to vulch with it, forget about it
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Yeah, I really don't see a situation where if it couldn't outrun its opponent it wouldn't be a chew toy. I could pick about 7 other planes I'd rather BnZ with that would turn better than this thing and are free. So since the AH2 ceiling is really at about 10-15K its perk value is really unwarranted.
Freakin' morph fishing again :p
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
so in other words.
unless im going to vulch with it, forget about it
No, i wouldnt say that. The Ta is a very capable plane. Certainly capable of getting kills without vulching. If you get into SOME trouble you can use its fairly good high speed turning ability, turn hard and force an over shot. But plan on being run down if you are on the deck.
As JB73 said, a D9 with just a little more alt will run a Ta down on the deck or at medium alt with very little trouble. Once you turn, and your energy is gone in the Ta... you're in that fight till the end. And then you have to get out. Which, when slow in a ta on the deck, you should plan on staying slow for a while. Its acceleration is average at the very best.
It would be nice to see it used more. The perk tag forces people to fly so very timid. And it may not be because of the perks. Its more likely because if they know you are in a perk ride, theyre going to come to kill you at any cost.
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i tryed her in the ta, and found it exceptional for killin bombers as well
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I'd go for unperking it. Like it was stated if I had to choose between an unperked A8 or the Ta I'd still more than likely go with the A8.
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the more i think about it, the more i'd fly it alot more if unperked. only for the guns.
i have bad enough aim, i pepper the guys with bb's from my dora all the time, just for split seconds, not enough to cause major damage.
i'd probably fly the TA 1/2 the time or more, but in the same style i fly the dora now, low on the deck, knife fighting like in the movie morph made.
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Things I remember about Ta:
Wings broken all the times
Terrible stalls
Very poor acceleration
But very good dive
For some reason its engine cold down slower than D9 jumo 213A.
A P51D can outturn, outclimb, outaccelerate, outrun, outzoom and outroll it.
Of course, no idea how it performs over 30k.
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Shouldn't you be able to knife fight in it better than the Dora? Take 50% or less fuel, burn off the wing tanks first whichever gets it lighter. Where's Wilbus?
mauser
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Originally posted by mauser
Shouldn't you be able to knife fight in it better than the Dora? Take 50% or less fuel, burn off the wing tanks first whichever gets it lighter. Where's Wilbus?
mauser
not really, it rolls slower than the dora, so you dont get that line or reversal as fast / easy
if you do get guns on target for a split second you will damage them alot more, but thats if...
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Originally posted by JB73
"i have bad enough aim, i pepper the guys with bb's from my dora all the time, just for split seconds, not enough to cause major damage."
cuz the 20mm shell MG151/FF minegeschoss, was not modeled, or poor modeled,
mostly used 2 out of 5 shells with 18-22grams of high explosive should make more damage than Hispanos 20mm shell with higher kinetic energy,
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I have no doubt that if the fighting was between 25-30k, it would shine. As it is, it doesn't. I found it lacking at best. A D-9 would chew it up down low. Be surprised if a C-47 didn't turn better. Until it's free I won't fly it again. Not sure about after... ;)
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i think the Ta152 out turns the 190d9 in a flat circle low speed go around fight
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The fantastic stats of the F4U-1C probably has something to do with the circumstances it is used.
I've seen some excellent pilots flying F4U-1Cs on land sorties, but most usually the F4U-1C is used as a vulch-jabo plane when CV planes effectively suppress the targetted shore field. Even if a hectic fight evolves around the CV, the F4U-1C always has its own diabolic AA platform floating nearby it within a 15 mile radius. The F4U-1C is not a slow plane, and as long as it has about 5k alt even La-7s cannot catch up to it before it makes it to the safety of CV ack and 5" guns.
Add in to the fact that their guns are so much powerful over the F4U-1D, and the success of the Chog is nothing strange in particular. It's a good plane, a cheap perked plane too, which happens to almost always fly under promising situations.
If I am correct, our AH2 Ta152H-1 is directly derived from the AH1 Ta. The only real difference is that the Ta wings don't fall off so easily in AH2, which is a good thing.
However, like in AH1, under typical MA conditions of low-mid alt engagements, the Ta152H-1 is indeed, uninspiring. The only real edge it has against its contemporaries is the wonderful armament, long range, and the best of diving capabilty there is. In my experience it's the only plane that can really catch up to a P-51 in a dive. The rest of its specs are quite average at best;
If we compare the speed(AH1 values by Whels);
-Deck Speed with WEP usage-
TEMPEST 386
LA-7 380
F4U-4 378
190D-9 375
TYPHOON 370
P-51D 367
109G-10 366
TA-152 361
SPIT-14 358
F4U-1 358
P-51B 358
F4U-1D 357
F4U-1C 356
LA-5 356
YAK9-U 355
190A-8 349
....
IMO, +15mph advantage is the point where a faster plane can really be considered to be able to "disengage at will" when fighting a slower plane. If the speed difference is within 10mph, it is barely noticeable. With the exception of the Tempest and the 4hog, every fighter faster than the Ta, is also a free plane. Most every MA competent fighter will run it down under some circumstances.
It climbs much slower than the Fw190D-9, roll rate is about half that of the D-9, and general speed between 0~25,000ft is all slower than the D-9 too. Despite the significantly larger wing area, it only turns just a little bit better than the D-9. It is also prone to fall under an almost unrecoverable flat spin when it goes vertical upto under 100mph. (the "Falling Cruciform" stall)
I am aware that they Ta152 was produced in low numbers. But that begs the question. Does that simple fact make it a perk plane?
And yes, that is the real question.
IMO, low production numbers should be a just reason for perkage. Keeping a rare plane rare in the MA, is also one of the objectives the perk point system is trying to accomplish, I believe. But as it is, my guess is it'd be pretty rare even if it was perked.
The Chog is perked at 8 points, the Ta is at 20.
IMO, the Ta should be lowered to about 10.
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Its FM's gotten worse since AH1. It used to be possible to seriously tangle with Spit14s. It was easy, with enough practice, to kill even N1Ks in the first part of co-E stall fights.
Even so, I think if it were unperked, it'd soon be reperked as enough players'd learn to exploit the very few but effective good qualities enough to put it on par with the Chog.
Which'd effectively lower its perk price.
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2 words: Tru Dat.
Well, I guess those aren't really words. However, I think that the only justification for using perks on 152s anymore are for the high-alt "fun police" buffs that are out to milk run an allready overrun base to hit the FHs.
Unperk it! Give the "fun police" a run for thier money!
There has to be some incentive for climbing as high as it takes to put the "kurt tank special" in its proper domain. :aok
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It climbs much slower than the Fw190D-9, roll rate is about half that of the D-9, and general speed between 0~25,000ft is all slower than the D-9 too. Despite the significantly larger wing area, it only turns just a little bit better than the D-9. It is also prone to fall under an almost unrecoverable flat spin when it goes vertical upto under 100mph. (the "Falling Cruciform" stall)
Last night I forced dedalos to go to the DA with me and do some flying... The TA152 vs the D9. I got much of it on film. I was very impressed with the D9s ability to control the fight. Even when VERY slow, around or below 200mph, the D9 could literally disengage in a shallow climb and regain an advantage... One of both alt and or speed. If the D9 isnt carful, and if he turns too much with the Ta, chances are the Ta will win.
We kept mostly to turn fighting. Altho we both did used tactics in concerving or gaining energy back many times during the fights. When I would fly the Ta I would win the majority of the fights. If not all. When Dedalos was in the Ta, he was clearly out turning me. I had to bring him into a stall and use the D9's better climb, roll rate and better low speed stall characteristics to keep in the fight.
Basicly, the D9 will be in control in a fight with a Ta down low like that. And as Kweassa stated, the Ta will go into an unrecoverable stall and literaly fall out of the sky if pushed too far. It just climbs better, rolls better, and over all is a much better plane suited for fighting at those alts.
Now. If a D9 can control a turn fight, and out accelerate a Ta down low like that... 90% of the planes in the set will have no trouble with a Ta on the deck or at medium altitude.
Even tho the Ta152 was a rare bird... I dsagree with those of you who say it should be perked because of that. Just because it was a rare bird and held its own in real life, at extreemly high altitudes, doesnt mean it will have a huge effect on the MA where the majority of the fights are. It is really no better than a Spit9 until it gets above the stratosphere. It does have better guns, and a better dive than most planes. But that doesnt constitute perking it. Not from my perspective.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Last night I forced dedalos to go to the DA with me and do some flying...
Yeah, he was flying. I was playing the part of the moving exploding target :lol
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Last night I ....
was basically "acused" but not really of cheating in the TA 152
"NO WAY a 152 out turns my spit on the deck"
muhahahahaha was in the canyons by A27 / A46 against a spitV down in the trees. i literally thought i'd clip a wing i was so low and slow, full flaps about 110 mph LOL
; ) made me feel good for just a second LOL
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Even tho the Ta152 was a rare bird... I dsagree with those of you who say it should be perked because of that. Just because it was a rare bird and held its own in real life, at extreemly high altitudes, doesnt mean it will have a huge effect on the MA where the majority of the fights are. It is really no better than a Spit9 until it gets above the stratosphere. It does have better guns, and a better dive than most planes. But that doesnt constitute perking it. Not from my perspective.
Agree.
Only about 368 3 cannon LA-7s were built and it is not perked. So why TA-152?
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I'd like to see the short-span heavier 152C-0. It was the precursor to the 152H, and had 2 extra cowl-mounted MG151/20s. That's 4x MG151/20s and a 30mm through the hub! Slower, heaviers, I don't care! I'd fly THAT any time!!!!
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'd like to see the short-span heavier 152C-0. It was the precursor to the 152H, and had 2 extra cowl-mounted MG151/20s. That's 4x MG151/20s and a 30mm through the hub! Slower, heaviers, I don't care! I'd fly THAT any time!!!!
taka a A8...
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Just un perk it for a tour 'n see how it goes.
Im not even a luftweenie. But Id fly it more just because its a cool looking plane.
Its just not a "Perk Plane" as far as the MA goes.
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HTC should model and perk a D-12/13 Dora , or a Fw 190 A9 those would be very perkable indeed, then again there were a couple of hundred built of the latter negating its perkability.
But the Ta-152 in AH 1 or 2 is and was a puss, y, cat as far as performance is concerned, I do not understand how it would upset the MA balance.
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Down where the fights are, all the 152 is good for is slowing down really fast, scissoring, and blasting people with taters while they overshoot. The trouble is, the G10 is soooooooo much better for that. It slows down faster, is easier to aim taters in (my opinion), and is a MUCH smaller target. But almost noone gives up speed willingly in "fast" planes to go for kills on overshoots (the only people who do are probably in the top 1-2% of the population or so), so I guess my point is moot. Speaking of moot, he's really good in a 152. Ask him what he thinks.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Thanks for the info panman. Good stuff.
I am aware that they Ta152 was produced in low numbers. But that begs the question. Does that simple fact make it a perk plane?
I don't think #'s alone determine perkability. If that were the case, the C205 would be perked!
But agreed, unperk it and see what happens...can't hurt...
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Originally posted by XrightyX
I don't think #'s alone determine perkability. If that were the case, the C205 would be perked!
But agreed, unperk it and see what happens...can't hurt...
The C205 would be perked, and he C-Hog wouldn't. I think MA unbalance is the real reason things get perked in this game, and I agree that Tank's Toy doesn't qualify.
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Shouldn't you be able to knife fight in it better than the Dora? Take 50% or less fuel, burn off the wing tanks first whichever gets it lighter. Where's Wilbus? mauser
Mauser is right. It turns quite a bit better then the Dora, specially when used with 50% fuel (which still gives it a very long flight time). Burning off wings tanks first will make it roll a bit better and make the wings less prone to braking off (in my experience atleast, could just be imagination). Dora rolls a bit better yes butthe Tank has got it beat in terms of turning radius.
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Wilbuz, the Ta152 has changed a bits since AH1. Burning off fuel tanks first, is EXTREMELY unadvisable in the fact that heavy aft tanks have a much more impact on stability, than it used to in AH1.
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Oh ok Kweassa, the AFT tanks always had quite a big impact but maybe more now if you say so. Wil have to try it more in AH2.
Still, the plane outturns a Dora IMO, speically with 75% or less fuel. 100% it's just has heavy on fuel as a Pony so not a good idea to fight like that.
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Funny how the unperk the TA-152 brigade are the same ones against unperking the Spit 14.
Both are high alt fighters, both have much better opponents at the alt most fights in the MA occur.
Can argue all you want about about Spit 14 turns this way or climbs that way. Once its in the typical MA furball its as much up for killing as any other plane. Same goes for the TA-152.
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i think the spit14 still is a perk ride for what it is. as i said 1000 times already, i think the perk cost should be lowered on the spit14.
Its a completely different animal compared to the Ta. Thus you cant compare them.
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Kev, there's no credibility in comparing the '14 and the 152 in terms of full-on furballing.
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Originally posted by Tails
The C205 would be perked, and he C-Hog wouldn't. I think MA unbalance is the real reason things get perked in this game, and I agree that Tank's Toy doesn't qualify.
Erm... No. There were a total of around 250 C205s made. There were a total of about 200 C-hogs made. That makes the Chog even MORE rare than the c205. It'd still be perked, even if the c205 were.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
i think the spit14 still is a perk ride for what it is. as i said 1000 times already, i think the perk cost should be lowered on the spit14.
Its a completely different animal compared to the Ta. Thus you cant compare them.
Still say at the alts the furballs occur in the MA it's no more of an uber plane than any of the big 4. If they took place at 20k/25k+, I'd agree, but they don't.
Same goes for the TA-152.
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yep!!!
definately good for killing buffs:D