Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Tilt on June 03, 2005, 06:48:22 AM
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Ok i know others have mentioned such stuff..............
I noted the other evening that hits to engine hood (2 of them) passenger door, front wheel area and rear bed from an LVT4 at an M16 at a range of approx 200 ft (i was by the selection hanger he was just the other side of the runway on a small field) had no actual damage effect interms of disabling part of his vehicle.
He finally sucumbed to local ground gun fire after we captured the field. (or he returned to tower)
The M16 is basically a truck right? How many 37mm hits should it be able to survive without disabling any part of it?
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Lol.
Seen M16/M3 take Tigger hits at 800 with no effect. Also seen them bounce off M16/M3 at less than 800.
Get the feeling there is a bug in the 'armour' or hit/damage detection routines?
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Funny stuff,
I got called a cheater, amoung other things when I took three direct hits. One from a Tiger and two from a Panzer in my M3 as I was racing towards the map room on a GV base.
The only damage I received was the last shot killed my engine so I had to let the troops out early, we still got the base tho:eek:
Maybe there is hit box issue with the M16 & M3? It is kinda strange that a halftrack can take that kind of damage and not explode into a 1000 peices.
More funny yet is that I have been sprayed with the MG from a tank and it wipes out my M3 big time:rolleyes:
Oh well, just a game
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Even better -
1) Guy kills a Panzer with his .45
2) M3 takes out a Panzers engine.
I still think it's a hit/damage routine issue, something just aint right.
Assuming all GVs use the same routine that 'might' be at the heart at a lot of current GV issues.
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Couple things, the M-16 is an armored half track, not very
armored though. 50 Cal should kill it pretty quickly. This next
little datum gonna to annoy you greatly. The LVT 4 mounts a
75mm pack howitzer firing HE. A little bigger boom than the
37mm.
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Were you using HE or AP? I always use HE on the M3s/16s
of course though I once got a kill on a Panzer with a Yak-T with 1 shot, hitting the mud 3 feet from his track. Yet an LVT took 15 shots,hitting every side/angle
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You do realize that you have to hit something important for it to be a kill.
If you take an AP round and shoot the back, the AP round will travel completely through the M3.
It's just like the airplanes. Spray 200 .303's all over the plane and you will see no effect. You need to hit the correct spots. Spray those same 200 .303's on one focused spot on the wing and that sucka's comin off.
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If you shoot an AP round straight into the back of an M-16, it may well fly through the truck...then put a hellacious hole through the engine block.
The problem these guys are having is, regardless of where they shoot, these things dont die to tank rounds.
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The REALLY funny thing about the M-16 and the Osti is that they are open top vehicles, the gunners are exposed directly to gunfire, they don't even have armored glass. And yet you just don't see the gunner shot to rags. Funny how four to eight heavy machine guns don't kill the gunner easily, but an M-16 obliterates a plane with the same four heavy machine guns. If you're firing four to eight heavy machine guns or cannons, and you see multiple hit sprites on an open top GV, everyone in it that is exposed should be shot to rags. But the open top GV's we have here would laugh at an A-10 and give the pilot the finger, and a pilot wound, if he's lucky.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
But the open top GV's we have here would laugh at an A-10 and give the pilot the finger, and a pilot wound, if he's lucky.
lol
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I don't know how you guys are flying, but I haven't been shot down by an M16 in months (that I can recall).
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The M16 is basically a truck right? How many 37mm hits should it be able to survive without disabling any part of it?
Yes ... its a truck with a half-track on it.
Was up close and personal with one on Saturday at "Corsairs over Connecticut" and made a point to do a walk around and check the amour. The thickness appeared to be 1/4 thick steel plate.
1 37mm hit would trash that machine and anybody that might also be in the way.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The REALLY funny thing about the M-16 and the Osti is that they are open top vehicles, the gunners are exposed directly to gunfire, they don't even have armored glass. And yet you just don't see the gunner shot to rags. Funny how four to eight heavy machine guns don't kill the gunner easily, but an M-16 obliterates a plane with the same four heavy machine guns. If you're firing four to eight heavy machine guns or cannons, and you see multiple hit sprites on an open top GV, everyone in it that is exposed should be shot to rags. But the open top GV's we have here would laugh at an A-10 and give the pilot the finger, and a pilot wound, if he's lucky.
The turrent on an Ost isn't made out of beer cans. It is meant to be some protection for the gunner. If you are at a low angle and make a strafeing pass on it during your vulch you are making a low probability shot.
The turrent is destroyed pretty easy, The chassis is harder, but then it IS a tank chassis. Kinda makes you wonder why they needed a tank chassis to carry a turrent that is so easy to destroy. You would think it was made out of thick steel or something.
Truck vs. airplane. No convergence on the truck. Guns can still fire with flat tires on the truck. Plane can't fly without wings. If you can hit the guy manning the guns of the truck from a platform moving a few hundred miles per hour. He can hit you from his stable gun platform, and he has a tight circle of fire due to no convergence problems.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
The turrent on an Ost isn't made out of beer cans. It is meant to be some protection for the gunner. If you are at a low angle and make a strafeing pass on it during your vulch you are making a low probability shot.
The turrent is destroyed pretty easy, The chassis is harder, but then it IS a tank chassis. Kinda makes you wonder why they needed a tank chassis to carry a turrent that is so easy to destroy. You would think it was made out of thick steel or something.
Truck vs. airplane. No convergence on the truck. Guns can still fire with flat tires on the truck. Plane can't fly without wings. If you can hit the guy manning the guns of the truck from a platform moving a few hundred miles per hour. He can hit you from his stable gun platform, and he has a tight circle of fire due to no convergence problems.
You make several assumptions.
First, if attacking an open top GV, I dive from at least 45 degrees quite often, sometimes steeper.
Second, I often fly a P-38, with even LESS convergence than the M-16, and a 20MM cannon as well. Actually, the circle of fire of the P-38 is around 30 inches or less, and no convergence at all. Further, a P-47 for example, while being a large target head on, also happens to be extremely tough. To assume that an M-16 can instantly shoot a P-47 to pieces, or easily incapacitate its pilot defies logic. Oh, and I set the convergence to 650 yards in most everything I fly.
Third, and very important, you assume that the attack is always made against the front of the turret. Not at all necessarily so. An Osti or M-16 may in fact be firing at another plane or vehicle. The back of the gunner is then fairly well exposed, especially to a high angle attack. Further, any high velocity bullets that pass through any openings in the armor will ricochet around everywhere, shredding the inside.
Fourth, the M-16 will burn readily when struck by API rounds. At least according to anyone I talked to who ever worked with any halftrack.
Fifth, turret is a broad term here. The top is open, and hence vulnerable to attack from above and at high angles. We're not talking about an enclosed turret. In the case of the M-16, were talking about a standard quad 50 mount with a front shield sitting on top of a lightly armored half track. There's no armored roof over the gunner's head. He doesn't have his back against an armored wall either.
I'm not advocating having planes able to shred GV's of any type with impunity, but I am saying that open top GV's seem to be excessively invulnerable to high volume heavy machine gun and cannon fire, regardless of the angle. I do expect to see at least some considerable damage from a 5 second burst of high volume heavy machinegun and cannon fire, when I see the GV that is the target completely covered by hit sprites.
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The most important thing, which you forgot to mention would be "proof", Cap'n. Basically you're claiming stuff here which can not be really verified. Maybe your attacks on the open top vehicle isn't all that accurate as you claim it to be.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'm also as much frustrated to try and attack an Ostie without any success... but I'm pretty sure it's because I had a bad aim. Other times when I was in an Ostie or a M-16, I had plenty many occasions where a very short volley of 20mils or .50cals would just cleanly knock the turret out. Since I'm no LTAR when it comes to AA shooting, pretty much everytime an enemy aircraft comes strafing at me my turret will be knocked out. It's usually when they come in very steep.
Maybe you should pick some of your friends and run a controlled test to see if the turrets are really that strong. At least, in my impression, it's plenty easy to knock out as long as you have the right angle and right aim.
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Agreed completely... I'm betting a .45 at point blank range would go through it, or come awfully close.
Those things are like the WWI battleships, egg shells with hammers.
Originally posted by SlapShot
Was up close and personal with one on Saturday at "Corsairs over Connecticut" and made a point to do a walk around and check the amour. The thickness appeared to be 1/4 thick steel plate.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The most important thing, which you forgot to mention would be "proof", Cap'n. Basically you're claiming stuff here which can not be really verified. Maybe your attacks on the open top vehicle isn't all that accurate as you claim it to be.
Don't get me wrong, sometimes I'm also as much frustrated to try and attack an Ostie without any success... but I'm pretty sure it's because I had a bad aim. Other times when I was in an Ostie or a M-16, I had plenty many occasions where a very short volley of 20mils or .50cals would just cleanly knock the turret out. Since I'm no LTAR when it comes to AA shooting, pretty much everytime an enemy aircraft comes strafing at me my turret will be knocked out. It's usually when they come in very steep.
Maybe you should pick some of your friends and run a controlled test to see if the turrets are really that strong. At least, in my impression, it's plenty easy to knock out as long as you have the right angle and right aim.
I never claimed all my attacks were deadly accurate. I said that when I see the entire top of an open top GV covered in hit sprites and I'm firing multiple heavy machine guns and or cannons at a high angle of attack I would expect to see results, but often don't.
I know immediately when I miss, I can see it easily, I don't expect damage when I see few if any hits. I only expect results when I see the GV look like it is being attacked by an A-10, covered in hit sprites with tracers pouring into it and only a few bouncing off of it. It just seems odd to see one lit up like that and watch it sit there undamaged like nothing ever happened. I never said I was a deadly infallible expert at hitting them.
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I said that when I see the entire top of an open top GV covered in hit sprites and I'm firing multiple heavy machine guns and or cannons at a high angle of attack I would expect to see results, but often don't.
Because, maybe you didn't land any sprites on top of them, despite what you think you might have seen? Ever consider that possibility?
I know immediately when I miss, I can see it easily
Don't count on it.
Many people claim on what excellent observations they make, until they are proven wrong by actual footage/recordings of the said incident..
Try remember the "50cals can't kill acks" fiasco on the boards. They came to the boards and exclaimed that it must be something wrong with either the acks or the 50cals. Not for once, did anyone ever admit the possibility that they were the ones who were wrong, not the game.
It wasn't until controlled tests and recordings proved that they were utterly wrong. They were firing hundreds of rounds, yes... but did they land hundreds of rounds? Contrary to what they were claiming, nope!
There's a possibility you might be experiencing the same thing.
I never said I was a deadly infallible expert at hitting them.
True.
But you're absolutely convinced that what you're seeing is always coherent with what is actually happening, which I, seriously doubt.
Believe me, I've done a lot of close-range anti-GV runs and pin-point strafing runs at low alts. In such runs, things are never just what they seem.
You can swear that you're landing good 23mm shells on that Panzer, which seems to just shrug off every attack. You think something's wrong with that Panzer.. maybe lag or something.
And then, what happens is that when you check out the film recordings later, you will ALWAYS realize in embarassment that you were seeing things wrong. This happens to everyone all the time.
So, again, I suggest a controlled test. That'd be the fastest and easiest way to prove your point.
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I think a point CVH argues towards is that there are no injuries to personnel modelled out side the pilots seat.
A straffing attack of any calibre should IMO cause gunner injury in an open top or light weight vehicle.
Equally re ac gunners IMO. They should continue to regularly pass out until they die causing intermittant fire from auto guns and blacks when manning that position.
Given all this however and assuming HTC/Pyro does nothing by accident............. why do we think the M16/m3 is so robust when fired upon (in this instance) by a 75mm howitzer at short range?
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So if an airborne fighter so much as sneezes at an AA vehicle it's turrets can go dead?
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Originally posted by Tilt
Ok i know others have mentioned such stuff..............
I noted the other evening that hits to engine hood (2 of them) passenger door, front wheel area and rear bed from an LVT4 at an M16 at a range of approx 200 ft (i was by the selection hanger he was just the other side of the runway on a small field) had no actual damage effect interms of disabling part of his vehicle.
He finally sucumbed to local ground gun fire after we captured the field. (or he returned to tower)
The M16 is basically a truck right? How many 37mm hits should it be able to survive without disabling any part of it?
I put 12 rounds from and M8 into the face of an m16 running HO towards me. Is seems that the guy knew I could not hurt him since I killed him in an Osti first and then he came after my M8 in a M16 :rolleyes: He kept comming till he drove through or past me, stoped, aimed, fired a 2 sec burst and no more M8.
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Trying to defend last night in Ostis, myself and several other defenders kept getting our turrents knocked out by F6Fs. One pass *POOF* no turrent. :mad:
It seems the Allies didn't have to worry too much about German air defense artillery.
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m16 is pathetic if gunner isnt top notch...ostis will lose the turret if hit from just about anything at the right angle. try to keep moving in the ostwind if the attacker has a steep angle..take him head on if he's coming near level to ya.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
So if an airborne fighter so much as sneezes at an AA vehicle it's turrets can go dead?
Rather he was injured for a while first..unless it was a big or repetitive sneeze
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I've not trouble killing M16 they key is : 90°.
For the osty often I need 2 passes but the recipe is the same.
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Originally posted by straffo
I've not trouble killing M16 they key is : 90°.
For the osty often I need 2 passes but the recipe is the same.
The question was related to ground to ground stuff
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In this case it look that HE work better than AP (empiricism at work)
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ive tooken out a panzers turret with my m3 50 cal. Funny how i cant do that with a P-51 that has 6 50cals.
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Now that just ain't right.......
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Try remember the "50cals can't kill acks" fiasco on the boards. They came to the boards and exclaimed that it must be something wrong with either the acks or the 50cals. Not for once, did anyone ever admit the possibility that they were the ones who were wrong, not the game.
Not to hijack this thread... But.
A single .50 cal round to any firearm would disable it. Not to mention 50-100 rnds of 50cals.
I've fired a 50 cal on more than a few occasions. I know what they can do to armor plating. And it doesnt take long for one to find examples on line of what they do either.
The 50 cals we have in the game now are armor piercing rounds. One hit to any firearm or AA gun would most likely render it inoperable. Again, not to mention 50-100 hits.
The thing that I find remarkable is that 1-2 NEAR hits to a field gun with 20mm or above destroys ack with no problem at all.
Thats why I called BS in that thread.
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One hit to any firearm or AA gun would most likely render it inoperable. Again, not to mention 50-100 hits.
That's quite irrelevant, as the 'durability' of objects set by the game is at an arbitrary point which HT deems suitable for gameplay.
Remember that we have a CV that takes 8,000lbs to kill, when in real life few 500lbers might be able to sink a capital ship. We also have a light hangar construction which takes quite a few 1,000lbs bombs to kill. Pretty tough for a thin-walled, unarmoured, wood/aluminum structure I'd say.
So, whether a firearm would be damaged with one 50cals or one hundred 50cals, is a moot point.
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The only thing that matters is how many rounds it is currently required for a .50 round to hit and destroy an ack.
One or two 20mm HE round with a grenade type of blast effect can destroy a single ack in the game. According to scJazz's testings, a typical 20mm round is abour 3~4 times more powerful than a typical .50 round.
So, it would require 3~6 direct hits on the ack with a .50 round to kill it. If we assume a middle point and say it takes 5 rounds of 50cal hit to kill a single ack, a typical average pilot with 5% gunnery accuracy needs to fire 100 rounds to get just those 5 hits.
You call it BS, I call it simple logic. Acks are very small targets. They are stationary, but also very thin.
The fact is, people aren't just as accurate as they claim to be when they shoot at the ack. Nor do they have a clue as to how much rounds they are really landing on the ack.
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I just tested it.
It takes 5 rounds of .50cals to kill a single ack with default lethality settings.
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in what? A m3? If your in a 51 that sprays ammo how could you test this?
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The M3 uses the same M2 Browning as aircraft do.
HT mentions that ground structures don't matter at what ranged they were fired at - which indicates that differences in kinetic energy don't count against ground structures.
Thus, if it takes 5 rounds in a 1x M2 .50 in a M3 to kill an ack, it will take the same 5 rounds to kill an ack with a P-51.
Gotta face the facts: wing armament has its pros and cons. And shooting at teeney targets with pinpoint accuracy(since the .50 is not a HE round) is not one of its pros.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The M3 uses the same M2 Browning as aircraft do.
HT mentions that ground structures don't matter at what ranged they were fired at - which indicates that differences in kinetic energy don't count against ground structures.
Thus, if it takes 5 rounds in a 1x M2 .50 in a M3 to kill an ack, it will take the same 5 rounds to kill an ack with a P-51.
Gotta face the facts: wing armament has its pros and cons. And shooting at teeney targets with pinpoint accuracy(since the .50 is not a HE round) is not one of its pros.
That would mean that I cannot put 5 rounds on a field gun in three passes? My aim is bad, but . . . . .
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That would mean that I cannot put 5 rounds on a field gun in three passes? My aim is bad, but . . . . .
Yup! :)
The problem is that the ack is long and thin.
A maneuvering plane maybe difficult to shoot at, but at least it has broad surfaces which the dispersed bullets can land on as an "area". Instead, the ack is long and thin and the .50 shells must land EXACTLY on the ack itself, as a "line". And it seems that with typical US-style wing armament, the convergence issues make it even harder.
A simple test can be done with SBDs or TBMs - it is remarkably more easier to knock acks with these planes with merely 2x .50s, instead of Corsairs or Mustangs or even Jugs for that matter. The SBD and TBM both have nose armamament.
To be fair, I'd say that your aim is probably very good dedalos, but when it comes to landing .50 hits on the ack, you just can't beat the system with that particular armament style.
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I have film of my m3 shooting a flak osty about 10 times and poping its turret. WITH
1 50 cal. Now i really wish i could do this with other 50 cals. I would glady show film but no host. :(
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Originally posted by jetb123
I have film of my m3 shooting a flak osty about 10 times and poping its turret. WITH
1 50 cal. Now i really wish i could do this with other 50 cals. I would glady show film but no host. :(
i have done that before, you gotta aim for slot where gun/gunsight is. :)
he then proceeded to kill me with hull gun. :(
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Trying to defend last night in Ostis, myself and several other defenders kept getting our turrents knocked out by F6Fs. One pass *POOF* no turrent. :mad:
It seems the Allies didn't have to worry too much about German air defense artillery.
Sorry buddy, but unless you have film to send in, HTC will not
believe the one pass "POOF" turret out.
Yeah like we all turn on gun cam in gvs. Right.:rolleyes:
SCDR
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Trying to defend last night in Ostis, myself and several other defenders kept getting our turrents knocked out by F6Fs. One pass *POOF* no turrent. :mad:
It seems the Allies didn't have to worry too much about German air defense artillery.
Originally posted by SCDR
Sorry buddy, but unless you have film to send in, HTC will not
believe the one pass "POOF" turret out.
Yeah like we all turn on gun cam in gvs. Right.:rolleyes:
SCDR
yeah, i mean it sucks. big time.
why would 50cals or cannon shells shooting down into an open topped ground vehicle with all the crew crammed into a small space kill them. its ludicrous. absolute BS.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Furball
yeah, i mean it sucks. big time.
why would 50cals or cannon shells shooting down into an open topped ground vehicle with all the crew crammed into a small space kill them. its ludicrous. absolute BS.
:rolleyes:
Dude, I'm not saying it is not impossible. Guess I have the bad luck of having
the "eagle eyed sharp shooter" pilots around whenever I up an osti, so it only
takes them 1 pass and my turret is out. It's just frustrating.
Oh, BTW HT already called BS when I made a comment about one pass turret
out in another thread. Which, to me, means he thinks it is not a common occurance.
SCDR
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I have a halftrack at our shop.
The armour is 1/4" face hardened steel over all the vehicle except the forward windscreen which is half inch face hardened steel.
A .30 cal w/ standard military ball will penetrate the vehicle in all locations except the fwd windscreen at 400 yds.
a .50 will pop through it at almost all ranges.
The armour on the turret is not super thick, and the spray produced by hits will put most everyone out of action in the vehicle almost immediately.
An Armour Piercing rnd, if it does not hit a vital, will likely push through a vehicle and leave it only with a hole in its sides.... that would be bad for a crew inside, but the vehicle will definitely be usable provided no vitals are hit.
Personally I think the Halftrack is too strong in here, but those are my opinions...
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Originally posted by SCDR
Dude, I'm not saying it is not impossible. Guess I have the bad luck of having
the "eagle eyed sharp shooter" pilots around whenever I up an osti, so it only
takes them 1 pass and my turret is out. It's just frustrating.
SCDR
ok....
open topped GV.
f6f comes in for strafe....
it has 6 x 50cal machine guns, each one firing at (guesstimate) 500 rounds per minute.
6 x 500 = 3,000
it fires a 2 second burst onto the target, walking the fire to the turret.
3,000 / 60 (seconds) x 2 = 100
That is 100 rounds, shot at a couple of guys sitting there, in an open topped vehicle in a 2 second burst, sounds like they would get hit and killed/injured pretty easily to me.
.303's should be even more lethal vs. ostwind turrets.