Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev367th on June 03, 2005, 07:29:25 AM
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How about when it gets doen having the following Mks.
I
LFV - Both 'C' wing and 4x20mm wing
HFVII (extended wing)
LFVIII (clipped wing)
HFIX
XII
XIV
Or any variation of the above. We need something to fill the post 1942 Spits that are FREE.
Or would it be possible to pick the Mk then in the loadout selection pick HF/F/LF engine and clipped/normal/extended tips depending on which alt bands you expected to be working in?
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I suspect all the US planes will be re modled first! Just a guess.
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Originally posted by Skydancer
I suspect all the US planes will be re modled first! Just a guess.
You may be right, I am definately getting that feeling myself :( .
Come on HT the war was going on prior to 1941 ya know. Plus Spits served throughout the war, something that can't be said for some of the planes already done.
Or don't tell me T.O.D. is a USAAF vs Germans.
After all the Brits didn't bomb Berlin, didn't bomb Brest, didn't conduct fighter sweeps across the channel, didn't attack coastal shipping etc etc.
In fact one thing Mossies crews used to boast about - They could carry the same bombload as a B17....only FASTER.
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It would be very nice if they updated the Spits, but I seriously doubt that will happen anytime soon.
Ugh.
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Forgot
Basically same airframe so will prob get done same time -
Seafire IIc
Seafire III
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Free - I
Free - LFV - Both 'C' wing
Perk - 4x20mm wing
Free - HFVII (extended wing)
Free - LFVIII (clipped wing)
Free - HFIX
Free - XII
Perk - XIV
Tex
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Forget making new models. With the UFO stamp on the SpitV now, nobody will ever fly anything else (except the 4x20mm -- stupid idea, will totally destabilize gameplay and VERY few were ever used).
What they need to do is quadruple check their physics on the current spitties, THEN give us representative spitVs and spitIXs (not an uber late SpitV and a porked early SpitIX). Make the SpitV like it was, and the spitIX like it was.
And for anybody that needs 4x20mm hizookas in a SpitfireV to get kills, I laugh hard and long in your direction. 2x is enough for more than 10 kills. Then you still have all that 30call to get kills with. Hell it only takes 1 ping to kill with hispanos, if oyu can't do it with 2 of them and 250 rounds, you don't really think you'll do better with 4x and ~500 rounds, do you?? :P
I don't think we need all those spits. What I think we DO need is a better modeling for SpitV, SpitIX, SpitXIV, and then I think it would be interesting to have a clipped wing LFIX (with poorer maunverability because of the higher wing loading).
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Originally posted by Kev367th
How about when it gets doen having the following Mks.
I
LFV - Both 'C' wing and 4x20mm wing
HFVII (extended wing)
LFVIII (clipped wing)
HFIX
XII
XIV
Or any variation of the above. We need something to fill the post 1942 Spits that are FREE.
Or would it be possible to pick the Mk then in the loadout selection pick HF/F/LF engine and clipped/normal/extended tips depending on which alt bands you expected to be working in?
Here's how I'd revise the list.
Spit I/II
Spit LFVb-While I love the Spit, I wouldn't have a 4 cannon option if only because it was not a dog fighter and used so rarely it wouldn't be worth it. By doing the Vb with only the 60 rounds instead of 120 of cannon shells of the Vc, the Spit V-driver has a bit of a penalty for flying that bird that does so well.
Spit FIX-with the Universal wing. This would be the early bird with the 2 20mm and 4 303s. It would cover the 42-43 time frame. Drop tank or single bomb on centerline
Spit LFVIII-This would cover the 43-44 time frame. Not many VIIIs had clipped wings so it would be standard wing tips but with the Merlin 66 that would fit better for the medium-low alt fights. Skinners heaven for the MTO, PTO camo. Single hardpoint for a bomb or drop tank on the centerline. 2 20mm and 4 303
Spit LFXVI-This would be the ground attack bird of 44-45. Packard Merlin 266 Clipped wings fitted with E wing armament of 2 20mm and 2 .50 cals. Three hard points with a centerline bomb and two wing hardpoints for bombs or the two rocket set up. Drop tank capable as well.
None of those would be perked.
As much as I've lived and breathed the XII for 20 years, the LFXVI would be the better choice for the low alt bird based on numbers built etc.
I would guess that in the MA the LFXVI would become the Spit of choice, in particular if the Spit V is a Vb with less ammo.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Krusty - We need a Spit post 1942 that is free, the current choice is just so unbalanced.
The ONLY two dogifters post 1942 (Spit 14 and Tempest) are both perked.
So, yes we do need more Spits if only to give a free post 1942 choice.
Like your list Dan, pretty balanced.
Why not leave the Spit 5 as it is? We have other planes just as rare. (3 cannon Lala eg).
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Krusty - We need a Spit post 1942 that is free, the current choice is just so unbalanced.
The ONLY two dogifters post 1942 (Spit 14 and Tempest) are both perked.
So, yes we do need more Spits if only to give a free post 1942 choice.
Like your list Dan, pretty balanced.
Why not leave the Spit 5 as it is? We have other planes just as rare. (3 cannon Lala eg).
Just trying to look at it by actual numbers, potential scenario use and the MA.
Right now the LFVc that we have is better then the IX.
Since the Vb was the main 41-42 bird, it might be better representative of the Spit V in it's service life and it wouldn't be as uber as the present Spit LFVc we have.
And if you have a Seafire that is essentially a Vc, you get both.
I figure if we ever get a clipped wing LFIXe/XVIe, that would be the MA bird of choice anyway.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Yup, unfortuneately I can't see a XVI or the XII for that matter going unperked.
Just looks like the RAF is destined to have no post 1942 free Spits.
Geez they can't be that good, can they :) ?
Going by the current values would even expect a VIII to be lightly perked.
A XII at a value between the VIII and XIV, and the XVI at a value between the XIV and Tempest.
Knowing our luck we will get no new ones, the Spit 5 will be castrated and the 9 left as the dog it is at the moment.
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It would be rediculous to perk any Merlin Spit. The XVI is nothing more then a Spit IX with an American made Merlin 266 in place of the Rolls Merlin 66 and a beefed up wing for the ground attack role.
You'd have to start perking 109G10s etc then and that won't fly either :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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As regards the perk system, NOTHING would surprise me.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
The ONLY two dogifters post 1942 (Spit 14 and Tempest) are both perked.
I consider the 1944 typh an excelent dogfighter.
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id like to see the seafire remodeled first, then the spit1, been actually seeing the stit 1 used a bit lately, it always dies but hey at least someones useing it;)
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Can’t we just have a Spitfires only arena for these folks?
eskimo
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Originally posted by MANDO
I consider the 1944 typh an excelent dogfighter.
1944 Tiff?
Might wanna check your dates try -
First flew 1940
Deliveries Sept 1941
The only differences between the 1941 and 1944 Tiff were a strenghthened tail, bubble hood, adapted to carry ord.
So to say our Tiffy is a 1944 plane is misleading, its still basically the same airframe and engine as the 1941 Tiffy. If it had a more powerfull engine or major design changes then I would say 1944 also, as it is it's a 1941 aircraft.
Would be a bit like saying if they converted a Mk1 Spit to carry a bomb in 1944 that made it a 1944 aircraft.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
If it had a more powerfull engine or major design changes then I would say 1944 also, as it is it's a 1941 aircraft.
It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor). Of course, you dont want a 1941 typh in AH.
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I wouldn't mind an early tiffie, not sure many LW peeps in the CT would. :)
I agree we have a 1944 tiffie, but it is hardly representative as the mainstay fighter for the RAF for '44. The tiffie had a brief period as a superiority fighter combating 190 raids, before being employed as the RAF's primary fighter-bomber. A spitfire or two would be nice to fil a '43, '44 gap.:)
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It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor).
Not to mention the critical tendency to shed tails at high Gs is also solved.
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Seafire mk 8
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1117919749_lspit6.jpg)
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Originally posted by MANDO
It had more powerfull engine (7 lbs cleared) and major design changes (i.e. propellor). Of course, you dont want a 1941 typh in AH.
OK 3 engines were fitted to the Tiffs -
Sabre IIA - 2180HP
Sabre IIB - 2200HP
Sabre IIC - 2260HP dont think we have this.
The +7 boost was rated for 1hr, how long does ours last, which Sabre we have?
Re- Tail problems
Could hardly say that just because they added a row of fishplates to keep the tail together it makes it a 1944 plane, considering this was carried out 1942 as soon as the problem occurred.
Now if we have the Tiffy with the Tempest tail I might agree.
Would hardly say a prop change constitutes a major design change. Conisdering the major difference in performance was 150-200ft reduction in take off run. (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/typhoonpropsf_1.htm)
If we had the IIC Sabre Tiffy with the Tempest tail, then yes I'd say 1944 also, as it stands it is essentially a 1942 plane.
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The tiffie had a long and troubled development. The fact that it was AROUND in 1941 does NOT make it a 1941 plane. It means it was being worked on. Consider the FW190. If you talk about the first version it's a 1939 plane, one might guess.
The reason the tiff is a late war ('44) ride is because it had far too many teething problems and was in limited use until later in the war, when they were able to train pilots to properly fly the bird, and were able to properly fix most of the defects.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The tiffie had a long and troubled development. The fact that it was AROUND in 1941 does NOT make it a 1941 plane. It means it was being worked on. Consider the FW190. If you talk about the first version it's a 1939 plane, one might guess.
The reason the tiff is a late war ('44) ride is because it had far too many teething problems and was in limited use until later in the war, when they were able to train pilots to properly fly the bird, and were able to properly fix most of the defects.
Not saying it's a 1941 plane, but 1942.
In fact it saw a lot of use from late 1942 onwards.
IF our Tiffy had the IIC Sabre and a Tempest tail I would agree 1943/4. But it doesn't.
Which Sabre we have, anyone know?
Anyway we're getting slightly off topic.
The Tiffy was not a dogfighter. What I was asking for was a few Spits to cover the 1942 to end of war period that are FREE. As it stands our last free Spit is a 1941/2 bastardised Spit 9. That leaves 3 years of Spit development in which they could have FREE models. i.e. Spit 8, 12 or as Dan said the 16.
It's not as though it represents major time in modelling them, most shared almost identical fuselages/wings. Only big difference would be in the flight model.
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Here's the thing... I was advocating not only a representative SpitV, but a representative Spit9. Spit9 was around til the very late stages of the war. Sure there were 14s, 16s, etc, but the 9 was the mainstay for spitfire versions for a long time.
I think that IF we had a decent spit9, we wouldn't need a 16 or a 21 or a whatever. The spit9 (when properly modeled) would keep the heat up from '42 to '44.
So we don't need a 16, if the "9" is done properly. Then it'd be a contender even in the later years. And for uberness, well we'd have a properly modeled "14" (which reportedly turned just about as well as a spitV did, but still had its high alt abilities, high climb rate, higher speed, etc etc).
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Spit XVI had a few other things over the IX - bubble canopy, clipped wings appear to be the norm as opposed to unusual. Same goes for having 4x20mms, seems a lot more 'common'.
Prob with Spit 14 is it's perk cost, frickin ridulous thats its only on average 5-10 less then a Tempest.
Trying to give a mice mix of post 1942 Spits that would be free.
Mixing Dans and mine would seem to give -
I/II
V
VIII
IX
XII
XIV
XVI
Even I realise that's too many but it's a good starting point to whittle things down.
Is there a plane usage count anywhere, not how many have shot down what plane, but overall plane usage count?
Would guess apart from scenarios Spit 1's are hanger queens and that due to perk cost so are Spit 14's.
Something along the lines of plane has been flown number of times.
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Actually having thought about it -
7 different Mks Spits isn't a lot for an aircraft that fought throughout the whole of WW2 in numerous theatres.
Considering that apart from the BoB and a few other occassions the Hurricane became more and more sidelined or changed to a different role.
So 7 different Mk Spits to represent a whole line going back to 39/40 and up to 1945 isn't really a lot.
Same would go for the 109 series. 190's less so.
I'd even be in favour of dropping the 14 out of the current lineup it's used that infrequently, replace it with a FREE Spit of similar attributes to a D9 or G10.
Have to keep the Mk1 for BoB scenarios.
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wish they would have gave us the 190A3 or A4 but it didnt happen.
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Originally posted by TrueKill
wish they would have gave us the 190A3 or A4 but it didnt happen.
I reckon theres room for them also, look at current FREE planes in German/US/Brit planesets that are 'fighters'-
190 x4
109 x5
110 x2
Total =11 ...Nice selection of early to late war
P40 x2
P38 x3
P47 x3
P51 x2
Navy x5
Total =15 ...Excellent selection of early to late war
Hurri x3
Spit x3
seafire x1
Tiff x1 (failed as a fighter, sent to ground attack)
Mossie x1 (threw it in as technically it's an FB)
Total =9 ...Good selection ealry war only.
Realistically the 110's and Mossie shouldn't be included, but this only makes things worse numbers wise. 9,15,8
US total does not include any new models (P51,47) which I am sure are on the way. Possibly add another 1 or 2 to the US total.
Include perk planes -
Add 3 to German Planeset.
Add 2 to Brit Planeset.
Add 2 to US planeset.
And people say theres no room for more Spit variants?
Maybe get 1 more Mossie (BIV) and Seafire (III) variant.
People forget that the Spit became the mainstay fighter of the RAF, we didn't have the variety the US did, so logically there would be quite a lot of Spit variants.
You could add a Spit VIII,XII and XVI, Mossie BVI and Seafire III and still be one less that the current U.S. set.
Of course the Russian, Italian and Japanese planeset are even worse off numbers wise, but at least have late war free fighters.
Just call it Aces U.S. High.
Come on HT time to start catering to your non U.S. customers of which I am sure there are many.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
And people say theres no room for more Spit variants?
Maybe get 1 more Mossie (BIV) and Seafire (III) variant.
People forget that the Spit became the mainstay fighter of the RAF, we didn't have the variety the US did, so logically there would be quite a lot of Spit variants.
You could add a Spit VIII,XII and XVI, Mossie BVI and Seafire III and still be one less that the current U.S. set.
I don't want to come off as argumentative (though I can be at times, this isn't one of them), however I disagree. Yes, the spitfire has many variants in real life. And yes it did fly throughout the entire war. And yes it was the mainstay of the RAF forces for a long time. However I disagree that this equates to a need for more spit variants. The thing with spit variants is that many were small-run specialized variants (was it the spit7 that had the pressurized cockpit, and never really made it into mainstream production? The spit 16, while it had a bubble canopy is essentialyl a spit14, which we already have. Etc).
With the spitfire, yes it served through the entire war. Yes it had many variants. However the majority of all spits were a select few categories. HTC had decided in the past which planes represent those categories. I think that the selection is a good one (albeit poorly modeled in my opinion). The SpitV is undoubtedly one of THE most important spits ever. I just wish it was an early spit, that didn't hover like a UFO and accelerate like a jug in a dive from 40k to the deck. The spit9 was one of the main forces keeping pressure on the new LW menace (the 190). It did a marvelous job, too! And then in the latest stages of the war you have the super powered Spit14, which is one of many similar-performing late-war spits, but I think a very representative on (not too many active spits had bubble canopies), despite the fact that it can't turn half as well as the SpitV, that it shares 90% of its airframe with.
So, when not considering AH's modelling, but when considering the spits themselves, the spitV is a must-have. The Spit9 is the advanced killer that keeps the odds even against the advanced later-war planes. The Spit14 is the latest-war ride that keeps the uber planes in check.
AH doesn't have them balanced, in my opinion. They're out of whack, so to speak. Perhaps because of this off-kilter balancing, people think the spits need more variants.
I say "nay, they need not more numbers, but they need more representative performance for their kind!". Were that the case I think we'd have NO arguments about needing more spits at all.
Erm.. Sorry for the long post. :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
I don't want to come off as argumentative (though I can be at times, this isn't one of them), however I disagree. Yes, the spitfire has many variants in real life. And yes it did fly throughout the entire war. And yes it was the mainstay of the RAF forces for a long time. However I disagree that this equates to a need for more spit variants. The thing with spit variants is that many were small-run specialized variants (was it the spit7 that had the pressurized cockpit, and never really made it into mainstream production? The spit 16, while it had a bubble canopy is essentialyl a spit14, which we already have. Etc).
With the spitfire, yes it served through the entire war. Yes it had many variants. However the majority of all spits were a select few categories. HTC had decided in the past which planes represent those categories. I think that the selection is a good one (albeit poorly modeled in my opinion). The SpitV is undoubtedly one of THE most important spits ever. I just wish it was an early spit, that didn't hover like a UFO and accelerate like a jug in a dive from 40k to the deck. The spit9 was one of the main forces keeping pressure on the new LW menace (the 190). It did a marvelous job, too! And then in the latest stages of the war you have the super powered Spit14, which is one of many similar-performing late-war spits, but I think a very representative on (not too many active spits had bubble canopies), despite the fact that it can't turn half as well as the SpitV, that it shares 90% of its airframe with.
So, when not considering AH's modelling, but when considering the spits themselves, the spitV is a must-have. The Spit9 is the advanced killer that keeps the odds even against the advanced later-war planes. The Spit14 is the latest-war ride that keeps the uber planes in check.
AH doesn't have them balanced, in my opinion. They're out of whack, so to speak. Perhaps because of this off-kilter balancing, people think the spits need more variants.
I say "nay, they need not more numbers, but they need more representative performance for their kind!". Were that the case I think we'd have NO arguments about needing more spits at all.
Erm.. Sorry for the long post. :)
Spit XVI is a Spit IX with an American made Merlin. Late versions, just like the IX had a bubble canopy but not introduced until roughly March 45.
I don't care if it's an LFIXe or an LFXVIe. Same bird, with one having a Rolls Merlin 66 and the other a Packard Merlin 266. BUT! It was the D-Day version and more often then not a clipped and strengthened wing to handle the two wing hard points along with the centerline hard point. It was the ground attack Spit and optimized for the low alt world that AH is fought at.
The AH airwar isn't fought at 25K. It's fought from about 15K down which is where an LFIX/XVI belongs.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Well, then going back to my arguments, we only need a spit9 that is representative. Perhaps the proper representation is an LFIX. I don't know. However I'd be against clipped wings. I've read a few sources over the years that say it added to top speed and roll but suffered at even medium altitudes.
P.S. Catering a model directly to AH's gameplay is cheating. Find the plane, make the plane right. Then where/how people fly it is up to them. If they want to fly only on the deck that's their business, but don't cater to it or you'll only give them that option (philosophically speaking).
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These three.
Top covers 42-43.
Middle covers 43-45 in the MTO, Pac and CBI. SKinners heaven with that one.
Bottom one covers 44-45 ETO
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1105648128_3spits.jpg)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well, then going back to my arguments, we only need a spit9 that is representative. Perhaps the proper representation is an LFIX. I don't know. However I'd be against clipped wings. I've read a few sources over the years that say it added to top speed and roll but suffered at even medium altitudes.
P.S. Catering a model directly to AH's gameplay is cheating. Find the plane, make the plane right. Then where/how people fly it is up to them. If they want to fly only on the deck that's their business, but don't cater to it or you'll only give them that option (philosophically speaking).
It's not catering to anything. The reality is the Spitfire LFIX was the main production version of the Spit IX series as the airwar was not being fought at high alt.
That it applies as well to AH doesn't mean it's catering. Production numbers of LFIXs is so far beyond the F and HF versions there is no comparison.
And I have no idea where this resistance to a clipped wing Spit comes from. I've got 20 years of dealing with clipped wing Spit XII drivers under my belt and at no point have any of them complained, said it hurt the plane etc. The roll rate in combating the 190 was an issue and the performance loss at the alts the airwar was being fought was minimal.
Those XII drivers were the top scoring Spit drivers in the Fall of 43. They sure didn't mind their clipped wings. And it's a beauty of a Spit too :)
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1103870266_41spitxiis.jpg)
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Spit 16 wasn't essentially a Spit 14.
Spit 16 (1000+ made) had a U.S. Manufactured Merlin NOT Griffon engine, as the 14 (900+ made) had. Completely different animals.
Yup the Spit 7 was the high alt pressurized one (140 built I think, but not asking for a Spit 7 anyway).
Spit 8 (1943) was supposed to be the Mk 9 replacement (1600+ built)
Spit 12 (1943) was the low level version with the Griffon II engine that could catch 190s (100 made)
OK granted the Spit 14 (1944) is the one to keep the late war rides in check....yet compared to the La7, G10, D9, and P51 it is the ONLY perked one.
So what you are saying is that there is no single Spit between the Mk 9 (1942) and the 14 (1944) that should be included?
Thats a 2 year gap!!!!!
What I am asking for is a free Spit(s) for the mid/late war years to fill that gap.
The current situation is ludicrous.
90% of AH fights are on the deck anyways!!!!
Not catering to anything, in fact by your reasoning the La7 shouldn't be in AH2. After all your catering to a crowd who like to fly a low alt fast aircraft where most of the furballs are - at low alt.
Sorry Krusty your original premise is half assed.
At a MINIMUM we should get the VIII and XVI, both as the LF versions. Or substitute the XII for the XVI or XIV, at least it would get used.
Dan - Wasn't the clipped wings in direct response to the 190s roll rate, i.e. to INCREASE the Spit roll rate?
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Yep Kev, the clipped wing was to increase the Spits roll rate.
Pointing upward towards the three profiles in agreeing with you. Minimum the LFVIII and LFXVI to go with the present 1942 Spit FIX we have.
Regarding the clipped wings again and hopefully to put to rest this BS about loss of performance. From the RAF trials of a clipped Spit vs a Standard wing Spit.
"At all heights to 25,000 feet the rate of roll is considerably improved by the removal of the wingtips. The response to aileron movements is very quick and very crisp. Four dog-fights were carried out starting with the standard Spitfire on the tail of the clipped wing Spitfire. On two occasions the clipped wing Spitfire evaded so rapidly in the rolling plane that it was able to lose the standard Spitfire and reverse the positions in about 20 seconds. On the third occasion the clipped wing Spitfire was able to lose the standard Spitfire. The fourth occasion was at 25,000 feet and the standard Spitfire was able to keep the clipped wing Spitfire in sight.
The minimum turning circle of the clipped wing Spitfire at 20,000 feet has been increased by 55 feet . This slight increase does not detract in any way from the fighting qualities of the aeroplane..."
So bring on that clipped wing Spitfire LFIXe and lets go LA7 and 190 hunting :)
That would be a clipped wing Spit LFIXe that served with 127 and 129 Squadrons in the pic below:)
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1087932462_pt961.jpg)
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Naw bring on the Spit LF XII with clipped wings, then go Lala, and Run-nine-oh clubbing.
So final list
I
LF V
LF VIII
F IX
HF XIV (Doesn't matter basically a hanger queen anyways)
LF XVI or LF XII
or replace the Spit XIV with a LF XII (at least it will get used), and leave the LF XVI in.
e.g.
I
LF V
LF VIII
F IX
LF XII
LF XVI
Much more balanced for the MA and gives free post 1942 rides.
Not much to ask considering the D9 was a 1944 ride of which only 700 were built, La-7 1944 also, the version most use (3 cannons) only 368 built. Yup that means there were almost more Spit 14's made than both combined, yet it remains the only perked one.
So as it's very rarely used, ditch it and go with the second list.
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Quoting Jeffrey Quill, Supermarine Chief Test pilot on the clipped wing and Merlin 66 LFIX.
"Then at some in definate time in 1942, there seemed to be a change in the tactical philosophy on both sides. It was rather as if, by some sort of mutual tacit consent between enemies, it was realized that the band between 30,000 an 40,000 feet was a silly place in which to have an air battle, and the fighting tended to drop down into the more practical regions roughly between 15,000 and 25,000 feet. I remember how, at the time, this trend interested me very much indeed. It WAS CLEARLY REFLECTED in the LF MK IX(Merlin 66) with engine performance adjusted to the reduced height band.
IT WAS ALSO REFLECTED in the fact that, by removing the wingtips of the Spitfire, an improvement in lateral control could be achieved, but because it increased the wing loading and the span loading of the wing, an aerodynamic penalty was incurred at HIGH ALTITUDE. Such a proposition was unthinkable in 40/41 but in 1942/3 the idea was ENTHUSIASTICALLY adopted by squadrons in 11 group and the "clipped wing" Spitfire became a common sight in the sky."
Note Merlin 66 LFIX introduced early 1943. Clipped Spits in 42/43 a "Common sight in the sky"
Performance loss at high altitude, not at the 15-25K band the LFIX was designed for.
So lets have em :)
Dan/CorkyJr
And yes Kev I'd love a Spit XII considering my history with them, but I don't dare imagine the possibilty :)
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Don't see why not Dan.
Spit XIV is so rarely used no-one would miss it if it were replaced with a FREE XII,,,AND IT WOULD GET USED.
Starting to lean toward the 2nd list heavily. (the sans 14 one).
Doubt it will happen also, can't have mere Spitfires competing on equal terms with P51's, Lalas, D9's and G10s.
Krusty - I'll bet I can find a lot of Spit Mks that were manufactured in close to bigger quantities that the La7 drivers 3 cannon version (368 built).
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I hope it will come. I would love to see a whole update to the RAF line. That would be soooo cool.
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Ok quick list -
Mk - #'s made - date
VIII - 1652 - 1943
XII - 100 - 1943 (only 'rare' one requested, dedicated low level bird)
XVI - 1054 - 1944
XVIII - 300 - 1945 Really the last wartime Spit
Didn't include the obvious Mk V, IX etc. Other Mks come very close to matching the La7 3 cannon prod numbers.
Seafires
III - 1218 -1943
VX - 450 - 1945 (a 392mph Seafire lol)
No reason why we couldn't have the Spit VIII and XVI, and either the Seafire III or VX, all produced in more quantities the the 3 cannon LA7, in some cases MUCH more.
So Krusty if the current planeset is representative why do we have the Spit 14 instead of the 16?
Spit 16 introdued in the same year and manufactured in greater quantities.
Could it be Warbirds Spit lineup is identical so the current AH lineup is in direct competition?
Now's the time to get a step or two ahead of them.
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Well, first, I would like to say that calling my posts half-assed isn't nice.
And second, what the hell does the LA7 have to do with anything? It's modeled for how it flew. The fact that everyone flies it like they want goes hand-in-hand with what I said earlier "Make the plane. Model it properly, then let the people fly it however the hell they want".
You might be right. The spit14 might be a throwback from Warbirds. Maybe they just had a certain base of information and built from there.
However AH is not in competition with warbirds. Warbirds is quite dead.
To answer the question: No. I don't think we need anything between the 9 and the 14/16/whatever the perked ride will end up being. The real 9 was more than a match for most planes modeled in AH. Considering the fact that the major differences between 9 and 14/16/whatever are the speed, the climb, and the high alt performance (not considering LF), why make several differences with only minor speed changes? If you do that then every 190 from the A-0 to the A-9 is needed. They all had slight speed changes throughout their development, so they all must be unique, right?
All sarcasm aside, there's a point when a spit is a spit is a spit. There are marginal differences (not considering LF) between the mid war variants. And marginal differences between the late war variants. Timespan of 2 years or no, you only need 1 bird to represent it, in my opinion. I just wish that bird DID represent, but that's another issue.
I can see adding a spitV (I like that SpitVB idea!), a spit9 with 303s, and a spit LFIXe with 50cals. Because then that LF would fly like a totally different plane. Worth modeling.
But adding a 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, ... is not needed. In fact it would just "clog" the game, so to speak.
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Sorry about the half-assed, was early in morning.
Ok-
Spit of any kind with only 303's would be yet another hanger queen like the Mk 1.
Current Spit has the 303/20 or 50/20 options.
Spit VB would be another hanger queen with our current Spit V being the max boost version.
Spit is a Spit - True, 109 is a 109 yet there a 5 of them, 190 is a 190 yet there are 4 of them.
So you have 9 free German frontline fighters up against 4 free (incl Hurri 1) frontline Brit fighters. So either the Germans wasted a lot of time, or the RAF fighter planeset is under represented. Even if you include the 2 Hurri 2's its still 9 to 6.
Every Spit Mk was either a response to a new German plane or an attempt to leap ahead.
So by your theory theres no need for 4x190s and 5x109s also? After all they were the Spits adversary.
If not are you saying that 3 free Spits are enough to cover 9 free LW models?
Remembering the 190D9 came out in 1944, and your putting a 1942 Spit 9 up against it, even a 1943 Spit 9 LF wouldn't catch it, thats what the XII's were originally for.
Speed and climb have become the dominating factor in the MA. Look at the rash of Lalas, D9's, G10's and Ponys, so the RAF shouldn't get the same or similar free performing aircraft also?
Apparently a free Spit 14 is too good for the MA, so we have to look at other options.
Yup Warbirds is dead, time to move on from the Spit 1,5,9,14 only setup, as they are hardly representative of a family of aircraft that flew from the BoB untill 1945.
Tell you what - take the free fighters from the Brits and Germans and pair them up, and post your list. Then we'll do a performance and historical opponent comparison.
Start is easy -
Hurri 1/spit 1 - 109E
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I'm sorry, allow me to clarify.
I meant "A spitVb that replaces our current spitVc -- which would no longer exist. Then a spit9 with 20mm and only 303s, no 50cal option, THEN another spit9 but an LFIXe with 20mm and only 50cals, no 303 option".
I also meant these in addition to the 14 (14/16/whatever the perk ride is).
I liked Dan/guppy's idea.
Also I don't like how you keep throwing out the numbers. Number of versions means nothing. Why, we have 2 zeros but an f4f4, an fm2, and f6f, 4 types of f4us. But the zeke flew throughout the war, the other planes didn't.
When talking about 109s you have the F4 the G2 the G6 and the G10. F4 was a short run. It wasn't there for too long. G2 came out and also lasted a short while. Once G2 came out F4s were phased out. Once G6 was the standard, the G2s were phased out. And so forth. Once G10/G14 (G14 was an attempt to standardize late models into the same package) came out the G6s started getting phased out.
But when a new spitfire was produced, it flew right alongside old spitfires. The SpitV flew on long after new models arrived. The Spit9 flew to the end of the war! So these planes were not simply phased out (RAF didn't have the numbers to match LW, they kept every plane in service that could still fly).
So what if the 109s have 4 competitive models? The spits have seaf spitV and spit9. That's only 1 less. (plus a perk ride that outflies a G10 easily).
As for 190s, we have the A-5 the A8 and the D9. Yes there are 3 of them. But that doesn't matter. We don't need to match them plane for plane. SpitVs were flying well past the time the IX came out. The IX was flying well past the time all those other variants came out.
I will admit that at first I didn't think we needed any spits at all. However I have rather grown fond of Guppy's idea for a separate LFIXe. I think it would be different enough in most ways to have a meaningful impact on gameplay.
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Spit VB to replace our current V, yup lets further handicap the RAF.
Just as easy to have a Spit F IX with either gun package.
Spit 16 would never be a perk ride had a Merlin 266 not a Griffon.
Actually there are 4 190's (not 3) and 5 109's (not 4)
True old Spits flew right alongside the new ones, no need to ignore the new ones though.
Seafire is basically a Spit 5, so can hardly count it as a completely different model. If it was a Seafire III maybe, definately if a XV.
Yup the perked Spit 14 outflies most in the MA, but it's PERKED, was comparing free planes on both sides.
Try listing the German fighters and putting the equivalent performing Spit against them, you'll find you'll need the other Mks.
Just because Spit 5s and 9's flew throughtout the war doesnt mean we should be deprived of the Mks that were developed to counter a specific German fighter in the game.
e.g.
109E - Spit I
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Krusty your statement about Spit V's flying with Spit IX's is a little misleading. It did depend where on the globe the spits were. For instance in the med it was common for the Spit V in use as a fighter-bomber and Spit IX to escort. 11 Group RAF however was mostly Spit IX's by feb '43. Spit IX squadrons were only shipped to Africa once the 190 arrived in order to counter the threat.
Spit V's were transferred to theatres of a lesser priority and to groups with less "action". The spit IX filled up the ETO first and then trickled down to other theatres at a smaller rate.
I wouldn't mind a Vb and a Vc. The Vb for ETO '41 and the Vc for '42+ (ie malta, sicily)
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Another reason for the Mk VIII -
Its the historical opponent of the Zero in the Far East. All but 1 of the Far East Sqns were equipped with Mk VIII's.
All this no more Spits when there is a TA-152 (of which ONLY 67 actually reached service) in the game. There are 'rare' Spits with a production run longer than this.
Even the MkVII had 140, MKXII had 100, MKXVIII the last wartime Spit had 300....INSANITY.
The ones I am requesting -
Mk VIII - 1652 produced. For Far East scenarios etc
Mk XII - 100 produced. 1st Spit that could catch 190s
Mk XVI - 1054 produced. Nice to have a bubble canopy, clipped wing Spit.
None would require perking and thus give a nice range of free Spits from the BoB up to 1944. Something we don't have now.
Nothing you can say will convince me that an aircraft that flew throughout the war can be represented by 3 free and 1 perked model, considering the LW has 9 free and 3 perked to represent them.
Rough dates LW
109E4 1939
109F4 1941
109G2 1942
109G6 1942
190A5 1943
190A8 1943
190F8 1944
109G10 1944
190D9 1944
Rough dates RAF
Spit I 1939/40
Spit 5 1941
Spit 9 1942
Big gap free Spits 1943/44
Spit 14 1944 (perked)
And no-one sees anything wrong with this?
Now add what I'm asking
Spit 8 1943
Spit 12 1943
Spit 16 1944
Much more balanced.
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I did not count the Emil nor the Spit1, as those are not contenders. Aside from the novelty piece, you will not see them in most of your MA career I bet.
The 190F is a bomber, not a fighter. It is slow and lumbering. Thus not listed as a fighter.
If you want me to list how the planes stack up, I shall.
Emil -- spit1
190a5 109f4 & g2 -- SpitV (A-5 being an even match if you ask me, but the spitV we have can outfly the others)
190a-8 109g6 -- spitIX
190d9 109g10 -- spitXIV
As you can see the SpitV we currently have is so porked that it spans about 3 years of the war. It takes on planes from the F4 to the A5, and does it with ease.
Perhaps that is why I initially thought "we don't need any more spits!" because the SpitV was too porked. Well, if it were a 1941 spitV, that is to say were the FM fixed/changed/"de-ufo'ed", I agree that more versions would be good.
Please clarify, perhaps I am ignorant, but what is the different between griffon and merlin 266? I mean when you say "it's a merlin 266, not a griffon - it wouldn't be perked" what is the difference in performance? I don't understand, might be part of the confusion.
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Griffon engine is the much more powerful replacement for the Merlin.
Spit XII Griffon IIB 393mph @ 18,000 (low level interceptor)
Spit XIV Griffon 65/66 - 448mph @ 26,000ft
Spit XVI Merlin 266 - 406mph @ 22,000ft
Notice the XIV with the later Griffon is a lot faster than the other two.
Although the XII is slightly misleading it was designed for lower alt fights.
Will try a Spit XIV offline at 18k see what it tops out at.
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"by removing the wingtips of the Spitfire, an improvement in lateral control could be achieved"
What kind of lateral control problem does a normal wing have?
-C+
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I'll throw out my prefered list:
Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitifire Mk Vb/Mk Vc (+12lbs boost)
Spitfire F.Mk IX (Merlin 61, universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full span universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk IX/LF.Mk XVI (Merlin 66/Merlin 266, razorback, clipped wings, "e" wing)
Spitfire F.Mk XIV (perked lightly)
Seafire Mk III
Dump the +16lbs boost Spitifre LF.Mk V and Seafire Mk IIc.
I am still at a loss as to why the Spitfire Mk V was remodeled from +12lbs boost to +16lbs boost.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I'll throw out my prefered list:
Spitfire Mk Ia
Spitifire Mk Vb/Mk Vc (+12lbs boost)
Spitfire F.Mk IX (Merlin 61, universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk VIII (Merlin 66, full span universal wing)
Spitfire LF.Mk IX/LF.Mk XVI (Merlin 66/Merlin 266, razorback, clipped wings, "e" wing)
Spitfire F.Mk XIV (perked lightly)
Seafire Mk III
Dump the +16lbs boost Spitifre LF.Mk V and Seafire Mk IIc.
I am still at a loss as to why the Spitfire Mk V was remodeled from +12lbs boost to +16lbs boost.
Nice list, I'd go one further, dump the hanger queen Spit XIV and replace it with a free Spit XII.
Also I'd have the bubble top, clipped wing XVI, just for something different.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Nice list, I'd go one further, dump the hanger queen Spit XIV and replace it with a free Spit XII.
Also I'd have the bubble top, clipped wing XVI, just for something different.
I don't think those changes would be good for a few reasons.
The Spitfire Mk XIV was a far more common and representative Griffon Spit than the Mk XII, almost 10 times as many made.
The bubble canopy Spits only enter service in the final two months of the European war. That makes them non-representative of a fighter that will be used in 1943 scenarios.
And lastly, but most importantly, the Spitfire F.Mk XIVc is my favorite WWII fighter.
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Problem with the XIV is it's hardly ever ever used. A free Spit XII would be used.
More Spit XII's seen service that TA-152's, yet it is in the game.
Was just looking for a early Griffon Spit that wouldn't need to be perked and would therefore actually see some use.
Bubble canopies - OK fair enough, but since when has representative had anything to do with the planeset?
Is our current F IX representative, no, because more LF IX were produced than ony other.
Would be nice to have a bubbly canopy XVI, it saw combat, would just be different.
Wouldn't be for 1943 scenarios, XVI wasn't introduced till 1944.
For 1942 scenarios V, F IX
For 1943 scenarios you would have the LF IX, VIII and XII
For 1944 all the above plus the XVI
As things stand for anything after 1942 you have to use a 1941 Spit V and a 1942 Spit IX.
I would set thing up so the LF IX and XVI had the 50/20 as an option, and the XII only had 303/20. That way you get a choice, faster plane or better guns.
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Why would a Spit XII see more use than a Spit XIV? The performance at low altitude is almost identical, IIRC, and the XIV has superior high alt performance.
Banking on any Spit after the Merlin 61 Spitfire F.Mk IX being free is a long shot in my opinion.
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Think the Spit XII would be free because unlike the XIV
Performance is at lower alts.
Around 40mph slower.
More comparable to 190d9 or La7 and they're free.
Assuming it was free it would see a lot more usage then the XIV.
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It is a Spitfire that will do better than 350mph on the deck and is from later than 1942. It'd be perked almost certainly. The Bf109G-10 and Fw190D-9 do fine at altitude and they are not perked. That has nothing to do with why the Spit XIV is perked.
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Lol Krusty just noticed in the skins forum you would like another 109, talk about hypocrasy!!!!
That would then be 6x109's!!!! AND 4x190's!!!!
And you begrudge a more balanced Spit planeset?
Even if I got the extra I was asking for that would make 6 Spit models v 10 (if you got yours) LW ones.
Just think LW fans don't want a mid/late FREE spit that could cause havoc with run-oh-nines and run-one-ninetys.
How would you feel if HT suddenly decided-
a) You could have 2 1944 planes from the current 3 109/190 choices, both perked, one ridiculously high.
b) You kept the 109E4
c) You had a choice of 1 from1941
d) You had a choice of 1 from 1942
i.e. a total of 5 (2 perked)
Not too happy I would guess.
Now you know how RAF drivers feel, thats our fighter selection.
Karnak - Definately starting to wonder why 1942/350mph (ish) is the magic figure for a perk, but ONLY for the RAF it seems.
You'd think that the all plane development stopped in 1942 until the Spit 14 in 1944 from the current setup.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Just think LW fans don't want a mid/late FREE spit that could cause havoc with run-oh-nines and run-one-ninetys.
Not all LW fans... there are enough 190's to satisfy my intended uses. I don't think it matters to some of us whether AH2 gets a Spit LF IX, XII, unperked XIV or all of the above. Or even a Meteor MkIII.
mauser
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Originally posted by mauser
Not all LW fans... there are enough 190's to satisfy my intended uses. I don't think it matters to some of us whether AH2 gets a Spit LF IX, XII, unperked XIV or all of the above. Or even a Meteor MkIII.
mauser
You can understand my frustration though.
You'd think all Spit development stopped in 1942 until the advent of the 14 in 1944.
We had the -
VIII in 1943
XII in 1943
XVI in 1944
XVIII in 1945
Intermediates
X,XI,XIII were all PR versions so no place for them in AH2.
No idea about a XV, only XV's I know of were Seafires, same for XVII, can't find anything.
God only knows the perk value on a XVIII if it ever appeared, but it would be the current perk value of a XIV.
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Kev.....
Keep up the good fight bud:aok
Any new Spits would be fine with me. They were my favorite aircraft in WW2. And , although I dont have yours or most peoples knowledge of the planes and performance levels...I would welcome them for more things to fly as welll as having more of my favs in here.
I would doubt that many of the LW types , tho not all , would want anything that could give them a better "RUN" for there money.
Just a guess tho.:D
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Lol Krusty just noticed in the skins forum you would like another 109, talk about hypocrasy!!!!
That would then be 6x109's!!!! AND 4x190's!!!!
Leave me out of your personal crusade to include your own pet planes into AH. I started out not thinking we needed any new spits. THen I was swayed by the statements in this thread. Now it's just past debate. It's just shouting for better spits, now.
For the record, I suggested that the 109E-1 be added, as it was essentially an E-4 with 7mm wing guns.
There are only 3 190 fighters. 1 is a bomber. As for the 109s, don't even count the Emil (E-4 or E-1) as it will never (repeat NEVER) see the light of day in the MA. It's more because there are some cool early 109 skins I've been looking at, that wouldn't apply to an E-4 but I would like to do.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Leave me out of your personal crusade to include your own pet planes into AH. I started out not thinking we needed any new spits. THen I was swayed by the statements in this thread. Now it's just past debate. It's just shouting for better spits, now.
For the record, I suggested that the 109E-1 be added, as it was essentially an E-4 with 7mm wing guns.
There are only 3 190 fighters. 1 is a bomber. As for the 109s, don't even count the Emil (E-4 or E-1) as it will never (repeat NEVER) see the light of day in the MA. It's more because there are some cool early 109 skins I've been looking at, that wouldn't apply to an E-4 but I would like to do.
You are right, the E4 or the Spit I will very rarely be seen in the MA, but they are a 109 and a Spit, so I included BOTH.
Put it this way how would you feel if the LW only had a choice of 1 perked 1944 plane, 2 1942 planes and 1 1939/40 plane?
Obviously not too happy, even more obvious because you feel the need for yet another 109.
It's the double standards that irk me, its OK to have 9 free LW planes from 1939 all the way to 1944, but geez how dare I ask for a few 1943/44 free Spits, considering our current free 3 plane lineup is all 1942 and earlier. Unless your willing to spend 40+ perks on a 1944 Spit 14.
Saying 1 190 is a purely a bomber because it carries eggs is ridiculous, I guess because a Spit IX carries eggs thats a bomber also?
Nothing to do with pet planes, my pet plane would be Spit XVIII and we will never see it.
Just a recap of our line-up
Spit I - 1939/40
Spit V - Late 1942, over boosted model (best free Spit in AH2)
Spit IX - 1942 FIX, the lowest number produced of any Spit IX.
Spit XIV - 1944, great plane ridiculously priced at 40+ perks on average
Seafire IIc - 1941, lowest numbered production run of ANY Seafire, the III had approx 4-5 times as many made. Even the Seafire VX had more produced than the IIc.
And thats a representative planeset...please.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Or don't tell me T.O.D. is a USAAF vs Germans.
I thought that was exactly how TOD will be introduced.
I would agree with the massive introduction of AC variants however..............TOD could then offer them as options as a player "progresses" moving from squad to squad.
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Krusty what is your MA handle ?
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O.K. slight change
Make our Mk IX a 1944 L.F. IX Merlin 66 - 150 grade fuel with 25lbs boost. You'll never see me in a Tiffy again.
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/merlin66_18_25.jpg
So final list
Mk I
Mk V (left as is, the Merlin 50 16lbs boost 1942 one)
LF Mk VIII (for Far East 1943)
LF Mk IXe ( Merlin 66, 25lbs boost, 150 grade fuel 1944 - NOT RARE)
MK XIV (left as is, perhapes reduction in cost)
Ditch the Seafire IIc in favour of the most produced III.
No XII no XVI
Only one extra Spit (Mk VIII) and a redo of the IX's and Seafire III flight model.
RE the LF IX - Two squadrons converted to 25lbs within 1 month of the clearance being given.
A few months later the 2nd T.A.F. was cleared to convert 5 sqns of XIV's, 5 sqns of XVI's and 20 sqn's of IX's to 150/25lbs boost, so hardly a rare bird for 1944.
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Very good argument kev:aok I agree in full for what its worth.
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Originally posted by MENDEZ
Very good argument kev:aok I agree in full for what its worth.
TY
Just as an addition
Our current hybrid Spit F IX is probably the least manufactured version of ANY Mk IX.
Put that with the least manufactured Seafire, the IIc, and I can't see how HT can even come close to saying the RAF has a 'representative' planeset.
Interestingly enough for T.O.D. the main Spits 'should' be the LF IX, XIV and the LF XVI at 150 grade/25lbs boost. (2nd T.A.F.), anything less would be a travesty.
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"Just think LW fans don't want a mid/late FREE spit that could cause havoc with run-oh-nines and run-one-ninetys."
Eh, the generously modelled IX does the job just nicely, thank you. From 42 to 44 LW planes, that is.
-C+
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Hehe.... generously modelled.....suuuure.
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Oops... :D
-C+
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I, V, IX and XIV.
These were the milestone spits in the ETO/MTO.
I - to represent BoB spits (with hurri I)
V - 1942 chanel fights / malta (with hurri II)
IX - 1943 till 1944 DDay (with typhoon)
XIV - 1944-45 (with Tempest)
This covers the RAF for the entire war. We just need the proper sub-variants of them. This just means an earlier spit V and later IX than we have now. Spit I and XIV are fine, save the perk over price.
Bozon
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Interestingly enough for T.O.D. the main Spits 'should' be the LF IX, XIV and the LF XVI at 150 grade/25lbs boost. (2nd T.A.F.), anything less would be a travesty.
What part of the 8th flew spits after 1942?
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USAAF Spits after 1942 were mainly the Med Fighter Groups, like the 31st FG that flew VIIIs in Italy untill converting to P-51s.
8th AF FGs converted to P-38s and P-47s after 1942, after flying Spit Vs.
Spit I <1940
Spit VB < 1941
Spit VC (+16 lbs boost, bomb rack) <1942
Spit F. IX (Merlin 61) < The current model in AH2, from 1942.
Spit LF IX (Merlin 66) < The 1943-45 model. The most widely used IX in WW2...
Spit XIV <44-45
Seafire LF III, the "main" Seafire used by the FAA in WW2, from late 43-45.
That would round it out. Im not sure you would need a LF VIII and an LF IX as well, they are very close in specs. I would pick one or the other.
*There seems to be this pervasive notion in some posts that the LF IX was retired after D-Day. It was not. It flew operationally untill wars end.
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R.A.F. 2nd T.A.F. ORBAT for 5 June - listing Spits only.
83 Group
125 Wing - 132,453,902 Sqns - Spit IX
126 Wing - 401,411,412 Sqns - Spit IX
127 Wing - 403,416,421 Sqns - Spit IX
144 Wing - 441,442,443 Sqns - Spit IX
84 Group
35 Wing (recon) 4 Sqn - Spit XI
131 Wing - 302,317 Sqns - Spit IX
132 Wing - 66,332 Sqns - Spit IX
134 Wing - 210,312,313 Sqns - Spit IX
135 Wing - 222,349,485 Sqns - Spit IX
145 Wing - 329,340,341 Sqns - Spit IX
85 Group
141 Wing - 91,322 Sqns - Spit XIV, 124 Sqn Spit VII
150 Wing - 56 Sqn - Spit IX
34 Wing (recon) - 16 Sqn - Spit XI
Air spotting pool - 26,63 Sqns - Spit V, 808,897,885,886 Sqns -Seafire III
10 Group
1,165 Sqns - Spit IX (had already converted to 150 grade/25 boost)
41,276 Sqns - Spit, type not listed.
126 Sqn - Spit IX
131,616 Sqns - Spit VII
610 Sqn - Spit XIV
11 Group
33,74,127 Sqns - Spit IX
64,234,611 Sqns - Spit VB
80,229,274 Sqns - Spit IX
130,303,402 Sqns - Spit VB
345 Sqn - Spit, type not listed
227 Sqn - Spit, type not listed
350 Sqn - Spit VB
501 Sqn - Spit IX
275,277,278 Sqns - Spit, type not listed
12 Group
504 Sqn - Spit VB
13 Group
118 Sqn - Spit VB
106 PRU Group
541,542 Sqns - Spit XI
Approx 37 Sqns Spit IX's, approx 20 aircraft per sqn = 740 Spit IX's
http://www.raf.mod.uk/dday/units.html
Spit XVI came on-line shortly after D-Day.
Squire - The Spit 8 is need for the Far East, all but 1 Far East squadron were equippid with Mk 8.
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I would like to see the VIII, but HTC isnt going to model everything, so, I think its probably a choice, thats my only point. Would I like to see it? hell yes.
Btw I think the XVI (Packard Merlin 266) was October 44 or so before it saw action. 1945 in large #s, mainly as a fighter-bomber.
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Originally posted by Squire
I would like to see the VIII, but HTC isnt going to model everything, so, I think its probably a choice, thats my only point. Would I like to see it? hell yes.
Btw I think the XVI (Packard Merlin 266) was October 44 or so before it saw action. 1945 in large #s, mainly as a fighter-bomber.
Yup but considering the LF IXe and the XVI were almost identical, I'd lose the XVI in favour of -
LF IXe - Merlin 66, 150 grade fuel and 25lbs boost.
Mk VIII - Merlin 66.
Pros - Only requires one completely new model.
Cons - No way we're getting a 350mph+ Spit until the powers that be realise how porked the RAF frontline is between 1942-44.
Considering very nearly half the fuel available to the RAF in 1944 was 150 grade I dont think i'ts asking too much.
Karnak - Sorry missed it earlier, why would any Spit after a Merlin 61 be perked? A Merlin 61 Spit is hardly a fair representation of the Mk IX series. Or was it sarcasm and I missed it?