Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on June 04, 2005, 01:58:13 AM
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So when did you start?
I'd have to mark my beginning at reading the Bible cover to cover at age 14. Had to; went to a Jesuit High School and the Old Testament was assigned over Christmas vacation and the New over Easter vacation. Tested, of course.
I'd have to mark that as my true beginning.
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einstien flunked math.
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About a year ago.
When I didn't have a choice.
And when I realized that everything I ever did wrong was the result of a void that I sensed was there, but couldn't even name. Didn't truly know existed.
I didn't so much as admit defeat as ask "wtf exactly is going on here!"
It was a big problem.
I bought about $200 worth of books. It's what I tend to do when faced with a problem. They helped.
But I still sensed that void. And I knew that if I couldn't resolve it, I'd be doomed to constantly repeat the error of trying to fill it in whatever the hell made sense to me at the time. Not smart.
So there was a void. A hole. A vaccum.
I'd lived a fairly rounded life. Bases were covered, I thought. But they were not.
I don't like to go into detail about what filled that void. Because, well, different strokes for different folks. What worked for me may not work for someone else. Hell, my spirital path may piss someone off. Seems likely, anyways. These days.
But ya know.... I've come across a lot of great stuff. I'd call my spiritual belief an amalgamation of many things. I'd have no idea what to name it. That does not matter to me. If there were a heaven, the gatekeeper would not ask me skill testing questions.
In fact I am certain that there is no heaven. Just like there is no hell. Just like there is no life and there is no death.
The best thing about all this? You never stop learning. See how I said "certain?" You never actually really know. That's where faith comes in. It's a healthy thing to have.
I'm often wrong. I'm never uncertain.
But you never really know. I distrust those that think they do.
That being said, and on balance... it's a damned good road to take. Couldn't imagine life without it now.
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Sorry I didn't answer sooner; had to get some bag time.
While my road appears to have been a bit longer, it wasn't necessarily faster. I suspect we are not that far apart in our belief system.
While I understand your reticence, especially here, ah......... let's see......... did you find one or two books more helpful than the others?
I'll put it that way. ;)
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Originally posted by Nash
...I'm often wrong. I'm never uncertain.
Sorry to barge in, but what you've written here is a little scary. I thought you thought a little self-doubt was a good thing?
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Originally posted by oboe
I thought you thought a little self-doubt was a good thing?
It is. I am far from perfect. :) Plus what I said is contradictory. It almost emphasises self-doubt while seeming to say the opposite. Definitely open to interpretation.
Toad, I like the Dyer stuff you're reading. 'The Great Divorce' by C.S. Lewis is an interesting little book. 'Awakening the Buddha Within' by Lama Surya Das is about my favorite on the subject. 'Tao te Ching' by Jonathan Star is great. There are tons more, but these are the ones that immediately came to mind.
Like you pointed out, there is a lot of commonality between the various religions. That gives me comfort, not consternation. To me it represents the confirmation of an esential truth, not a reason to compare and doubt.
Of them all, eastern philosophy (Buddhism, Tao, Zen) ring the truest to me, and gives me the most peace. Dryer's stuff is essentially Buddhism, spoken in a different way. I suppose that if you took any Western religion and stripped off all of the fat, it would look much like Buddhism. So why all the fat? No thanks. But... it's all good. There's no end to be reached. All a worthwhile journey.
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I'm also sorrty to but into your conversation but you mentioned something of interest to me. Eastern philosophy.
It might surprise people but I also read a lot of Eastern philosophy (nice term 'philosophy', isn't it) books.
Among my favorites are Zen and the Art of Motorcylce Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig.
I'm finishing up The Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff. It's relatively small but puts a lot of Tao beliefs into tangible examples using the stories of Winnie the Pooh. Surprisingly, this is the best book I've read about Taoism.
I also got The Te of Piglet by the same author at the same time but haven't even cracked the book open yet, but I expect it to be pretty good also.
Some of my other favorites which are not 'spiritual' (as I gathered this thread was about) but still are philosophical include The Book of the Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi and The Art of War by Sun Tzu.
But by far The Tao of Pooh has been the most rewarding book I've read so far. Maybe it is because I've already read other books, I don't know but this one seemed to put things in such context that seemed not only functional but also applicable.
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LOL Drunky those books are all in our house somewhere.
Pirsig really captivated me - one of those rare books I stayed up almost all night reading. It led to my first motorcycle purchase years ago, and some motorcycle camping trips. They were just as great as I imagined when reading about them in his book.
I never really got into the Phaedras wolf stuff, or that his son was going insane - but the stuff about Quality and the descriptions about motorcycling make it an all time great read for me.
I'll have to find and crack open the Tao of Pooh.
Nash - I don't find what you said contradictory. There are too many 'certain' people in the world who are very often proved wrong about things. They don't seem to learn from it or be chastened by it, either. Drives me nuts, because I'd feel like crawling under a rock if I was publicly proven wrong about something I said I was 'certain' about.
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Originally posted by Toad
had to get some bag time
I didn't realize colostomy was part of your treatment.
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Originally posted by Nash
Like you pointed out, there is a lot of commonality between the various religions. That gives me comfort, not consternation. To me it represents the confirmation of an esential truth, not a reason to compare and doubt.
[/b]
Exactly. Couldn't agree more.
So why all the fat? No thanks. But... it's all good. There's no end to be reached. All a worthwhile journey.
Perhaps because in my Father's house, there are many mansions?
Perhaps there HAS to be different "flavors" of the same essential truth in order for it to reach minds that have been raised in different environments/social systems?
As you pointed out, they all reach towards essentially the same thing. Is the exact method of "reach" the key? Probably not. IMO, anyway.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I didn't realize colostomy was part of your treatment.
That's not my bag, man. Well......... yet. ;)
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Originally posted by oboe
I never really got into the Phaedras wolf stuff, or that his son was going insane - but the stuff about Quality and the descriptions about motorcycling make it an all time great read for me.
This is what I got out of the book. You're mind, or mental well-being as it were, needs to be maintained just as you would your body.
If you're arm hurts for three days, you begin to wonder why does it hurt. Same goes for your mind, or mental well-being.
Hence the analogy to motorcycle maintenance. Which is personified by his care of his motorcycle and contrasted by his friends' care of their motorcycle. They don't listen for things. They don't check to see if something is going wrong. They ride until it breaks even if it becomes apparent that something is wrong.
That could be said what happened to Phaedras. He broke.
While this book is about Zen it also parallels Taoism in a way. Discard things and live a Natural life. Not only achieve Nothing but also become Nothing.
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Drunky, 'The Tao of Pooh' is excellent.
oboe, how can admitting errors and in the same breath be proclaiming absolute certainty about anything not be contradictory? I know what you're saying though, that it's those who proclaim certainty and never admit their errors that is the true frustration. But certainty is a good thing to have up front. Bolstering it are the lessons learned from past mistakes and the ability to admit future ones. Certainty itself, in life, is often required. It's how we handle the results of it that is telling.
Toad, I must admit not knowing the "father's house/mansions" analogy.
"Perhaps there HAS to be different "flavors" of the same essential truth in order for it to reach minds that have been raised in different environments/social systems?" - Toad
Erhm, it's not that I can disagree with your take on it. Because, for sure, there is that angle. Breaking it down into a simple language barrier makes your point correct. It's more like I see it as a defense of every religious excess in the name of necessary marketing. Or something like that.
I'll just tell you straight up that I think that (and I am talking about my personal evaluation which is no stranger to course adjustments) Western religion has lost the plot. Somewhere along the way. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years ago, to be vaguely precise.
I do find value in it, because as we agree there is an essential core at the root of all of it. But you're creating an "ends justify the means" argument, and to discount the means is to discount the ends. Because they are the same thing.
I'm reticent to go further, as I really do have strong opinions about the subversion of spirituality by certain establishments that take perhaps the highest and most noble callings of mankind and uses them instead for the lowest, most base and antithetical pursuits.
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"vaguely precise" lol, what a great phrase!
Do continue, Nash. It sounds to me like your just getting to the good part...
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Originally posted by Nash
Toad, I must admit not knowing the "father's house/mansions" analogy
This is straight out of the one of those religious books (trying to be vague) and I think what he is saying is that despite how you might view things you will find your 'heaven', whatever that might be.
This should go along with what I have seen you comment on how all things tie together. It's not being restrictive, rather the opposite, it's saying however you believe, there is a place for you.
That is my take. Take it for what you will.
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Oh, okay, cool. Thanks Drunky.
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I love you guys.
Once I'm done ****ing up my life I'll be in line behind you at the bookstore.
-Sik
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Good. See ya there, then.
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Originally posted by Nash
Good. See ya there, then.
I'm looking forward to it. I just have some more deconstructing to do before the rebuilding effort.
-Sik
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Best of luck with that.
(how about skipping the sarcasm and saying what yer trying to say straight up?)
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Originally posted by Nash
Best of luck with that.
(how about skipping the sarcasm and saying what yer trying to say straight up?)
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be cryptic. I really just hit a rough patch in life, and now some things that I had always assumed are coming undone. I'm in the middle of a divorce, I'm not going to be seeing my Daughter as much soon, and my career is at a very odd cross-roads (which is amusing since I'm still in school).
So really, I need to start over at this point, however I don't feel comfortable moving forward until I've taken care of everything that I'm in the middle of right now.
Really, I wasn't being sarcastic, just trying to avoid being so dramatic.
-Sik
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Oh hey, it's cool.
(yowza - you kind of caught me off guard. :) )
I'm not really one to give advice for a situation I know nothing about. Uhm...
Yeah geeze, I just don't know.
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Originally posted by Nash
Oh hey, it's cool.
(yowza - you kind of caught me off guard. :) )
I'm not really one to give advice for a situation I know nothing about. Uhm...
Yeah geeze, I just don't know.
No worries on my part. I mean, like you said if I have something to say and all...
Just that it's refreshing to read this thread at a time when I know that there is something that I need to figure out. It is comforting to know that my not knowing a damn thing isn't unusual, and to read about people from various stages of life seeking the same basic truths.
But at the same time I understand that right now I'm particularly vulnerable and more likely to latch onto the first thing that I read. So I need some distance from my current situation before I can move forward if I want any real hope of any discovery.
-Sik
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Namaste
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Originally posted by Sikboy
So I need some distance from my current situation before I can move forward if I want any real hope of any discovery.
-Sik
Wise.
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Actually, that's BS. I only said that in case you really were the type who gets influenced and buys into whatever just happens to be near you. I don't know you, so I have no idea what kind of person you are. Which includes your propensity for being led astray by things just because they happen to fill an immediate need.
SO....
It's never wrong nor too soon to start looking into it. Aside from merely helping you cope with the outcome of a current predicament, it may in fact help you see it more clearly, and by virtue of that, salvage it.
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Originally posted by Nash
Toad, I must admit not knowing the "father's house/mansions" analogy.
[/b]
John 14:2 Drunky explained it. Interesting bit I found here
http://www.askrealjesus.com/R1_LIVING_WORD/manymansions.html
that seems somewhat in the Dyer vein. Again, don't think that I think I have all the answers. THAT would be one thing I am certain about, that I don't have all the answers. ;)
It's more like I see it as a defense of every religious excess in the name of necessary marketing. Or something like that.
I believe we're limited here by the electronic ink medium. I'm sure you realize I don't condone or suggest religious excess in the name of marketing or any other reason.
Rather, it's more "different strokes for different folks". Take Dyers intention/force. It's there for all of us, I'm sure you'd agree. But our individual "receptors" shaped by our societies, upbringing, languages, mores, etc., etc., may be different. May HAVE to be different. So, while there might have to be different flavors, is not the essential truth(s) the same? Take snowcones; you can have cherry, grape, orange or whatever but really... they're all essentially the same. Sorry for the oversimplification.
Western religion has lost the plot.
Yes... and "know". That's a generalization and you know the danger. However, remember my comment about "the closer to the source"? My Native American phase lasted a while just for that reason. ;)
But you're creating an "ends justify the means" argument,
Certainly not my intent; perhaps again the limitations of this medium?
I'm reticent to go further, as I really do have strong opinions about the subversion of spirituality by certain establishments that take perhaps the highest and most noble callings of mankind and uses them instead for the lowest, most base and antithetical pursuits.
I think you'd be in good company there. ;)
Matt 18:1-6
18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them 3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, [1] it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
And I'm sure we can find similar thought in other places. This is the one that springs to mind for me at present.
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Is any of that stuff really needed?
Can't yu just enjoy stuff as it happens realizing that everything (and logicaly even life) is transitional?
Since we have no way to know what is to come.. why not just enjoy the ride? When the right time comes... all will be revealed.
lazs
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..given it's very strict entry requirements, there is only one explanation which makes sense to this raised as catholic but accept the parallels from the eastern wisdom, soul..
reincarnation
you know it used to be in the Bible before it was removed during one of it's edits...they felt that multiple lives gave the sinner to many chances and figured if they cut it back to just one, we'd all try harder :)
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be cryptic. I really just hit a rough patch in life, and now some things that I had always assumed are coming undone. I'm in the middle of a divorce, I'm not going to be seeing my Daughter as much soon, and my career is at a very odd cross-roads (which is amusing since I'm still in school).
-Sik
****... sorry to hear it SB. Wish you the best.
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Hey Toad, I see what you're saying now. Yeah, I can get behind that. And thanks for the "Father's house..." info.
Lazs, regarding:
"Is any of that stuff really needed?
Can't you just enjoy stuff as it happens realizing that everything (and logically even life) is transitional?
Well no, it's not needed. But that doesn't make it any less desirable. I'll try to put it in a way that answers your question and also touches on the discussion Toad and I have been having. And yeah, blah blah blah it's just my opinion and sorry if it offends anyone blah blah blah.
I had been brought up to understand that spirituality was religion.
And I had come to see that religion was about adhering to its tenets in this life in order that one may enter heaven in the next. And that the only real difference between the various religions were the tenets that had to be adhered to.
The practice of it being these little he-said/she-said history lessons, which are used to demonstrate how we can follow the tenets in modern, everyday life.
So you've got the rule book. Then you've got the guys who every Sunday will pick out a little section of the rule book and make the hard to understand language easier to understand. Then everyone goes off in their own separate directions to follow the rules.
If you break the rules, you have to do something or other. Admit it to someone, or do a ritual or something like that. You can break them seriously enough to get kicked out of the club, but you can never break them seriously enough to get kicked out of the ultimate club, as any death row inmate will attest to.
Then, the rule followers achieve heaven, and the rule breakers suffer hell.
All there is to it. Or it would have been, had not there emerged a group of people not content with just abiding by the rules, and instead find it their business to see that everybody else abides by them aswell. But that's another subject....
I could never get into it. Even when it was being made a very accommodating thing for me to do, when I had to do something.
Because by making the next stop on the ride (some call it heaven) the goal, and by making life a proving ground in order to achieve that goal, they lessen this life here, that we're living. Get through 'X' as you're told, and you'll be rewarded with "Y."
I don't want to just get through life according to some rules. I want to live it fully. And just what the hell is heaven, anyways?
It didn't make any sense to me, so I did my own independent research. :) From guys who've been around a hell of a lot longer than JC and since.
So here lazs, finally, this brings me to the "why bother" part. You say: "Can't you just enjoy stuff as it happens realizing that everything (and logically even life) is transitional?." I say: you've hit the nail on the head.
I don't think that there's a beginning to life, nor do I think that there's an ending to it. When those starting/stopping points are removed, what's left? What does that make the life we're existing in now? Just a part of its continuation. So in that context; "why bother with spirituality?" You bother with it because you are already living it.
It is not about acting differently in this stage, in order to fulfill some requirement of the next. It's merely recognizing your place in all of this, and embracing that. Enjoying life through it. Toad, Dryer said that "we are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are spirits having a human experience." It succinctly gets at the core of what it's about.
Socrates said "The unexamined life is not worth living." I believe this to be true also. So why would spirituality be left out of the equation? I believe that we need to be attentive to our physical health, that we should be attentive to our relationships, that we be attentive to our aspirations, security, creativity, and last but not least, our spirituality.
So it's not a question of "why not just appreciate the life you're living." Because it's not exclusive. "Why bother?" You bother because it's an essential part of your existence, and its consideration leads to greater awareness, which leads to greater selflessness, greater appreciation, colors become more vivid, interactions become more profound, and life ultimately becomes more meaningful, more fulfilling, and just basically more fun to be a part of.
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Thou art God. All art God. The rest is mental masturbation.
Now, quit beatin the bushes for 'faith'.
Clue... if God's dealing; always cut the cards.
Now, Get Happy!
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(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000009UU.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
What a great record.
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substituting one complusive behaviour for another. i do it all the time, you're still a feak tho. j/k
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Nash... I guess I was making a comment on trading one obsesive behavior for another.
I went to catholic school for my grade school years and one thing I did like about the catholics...Sin was in your head to them. Sure.. they had rules...lots of rules but... ignorance of the law WAS an excuse. the oppossite was true also... if you wanted to commit a sin but were thwarted or.. simply didn't do it out of fear yet... lusted for the sin... it was still a sin.
Not a bad way to live. If you don't think the rules are divine or even right... say... miss mass one week... go to hell... then... why would heaven be denied you? better yet.. why would you want to go to such a heaven if your mindset was still that obeying senseless (to you) laws was wrong... you wouldn't fit in or be happy anyway.
In the end.. you can't really force spirituality... it forces it self on you.
lazs
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Originally posted by Torque
substituting one complusive behaviour for another. i do it all the time, you're still a feak tho. j/k
Originally posted by Lazs
Nash... I guess I was making a comment on trading one obsesive behavior for another.
Au contraire. A fundamental part of my belief is balance. In all aspects of life. To be obsessive about spirituality defeats the purpose. It'd be as harmful as an obsession to anything else.
If you want to see obsession with religion, you don't have to look very hard to find examples. I would definitely not be among them.
My situation is less about compulsion than it is a quiet awareness. Blame Toad for getting me to talk about it. :)
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This is a nice thread. Good reading.
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Originally posted by Nash
Blame Toad for getting me to talk about it. :)
You had to talk about it because you were supposed to.
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And we found out that Laz is probably naturally and normally at a higher level of energy than 90% of the world's population.
Maybe that was the purpose.
;)
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Originally posted by Nash
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000009UU.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
What a great record.
*sheesh*
Oh well, sometimes I deserve what I get.
well, ok; usually.
well, if yah wanna nitpick.. it's always.
'reap what you sow'
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Originally posted by Hangtime
*sheesh*...'reap what you sow'
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/brang.jpg)
watch how & where you throw it .. it always comes back
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Originally posted by Eagler
..given it's very strict entry requirements, there is only one explanation which makes sense to this raised as catholic but accept the parallels from the eastern wisdom, soul..
reincarnation
you know it used to be in the Bible before it was removed during one of it's edits...they felt that multiple lives gave the sinner to many chances and figured if they cut it back to just one, we'd all try harder :)
Please I would very much like to see where that information comes from. Can you list the proof for me? Where I can find that information?
Thanks in advance.
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to me... considering my past...karma means that if I rescue 20 orphans a month from burning orhanages from now till the end of my life...
I will have earned a lukewarm glass of tea every eternity or so in hell.
Still.... trying never hurts..
lazs
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Originally posted by wrag
Please I would very much like to see where that information comes from. Can you list the proof for me? Where I can find that information?
Thanks in advance.
"Most of the references to reincarnation were formally removed from the Christian Scriptures at the Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church in 533 AD (under the Roman Emperor Justinian)."
wrag
you can start here:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/esoteric/bible_excerpts.htm
and then do a google search on "bible reincarnation Constantinople 533 AD"
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Originally posted by Eagler
"Most of the references to reincarnation were formally removed from the Christian Scriptures at the Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church in 533 AD (under the Roman Emperor Justinian)."
wrag
you can start here:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/esoteric/bible_excerpts.htm
and then do a google search on "bible reincarnation Constantinople 533 AD"
Thank You.
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All that I have seen of the things of this world causes me to trust God for the things that I have not seen.
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Lasz, did you know that there isn't a single reference to a literal, burning hell in the entire Old Testament. That is solely a feature of the New Testament.
Which raises the question, "Where did the idea of a burning Hell come from?"
I've come to believe that it was the invention of ambitious, early church leaders who used it to frighten superstitious secular and religious opponents into submission. I've come to believe that because the concept of a loving God casting his children into a lake of fire to torment them eternally is diametrically opposed to the very things that Christ taught.
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Hmmm read the stuff contained within the address sent.
Don't see how the author got reincarnation out of those scriptures. Thinking the versus actually refer to a spiritual rebirth and don't have anything to do with an actual reincarnation rebirth.
Care to share your view re this with me as I don't seem to understand?
Gonna do the search now.
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shuckins... I don't really care about a burning hell one way or the other... reading about it or it's origins does not interest me.
lazs