Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TheBeeg on June 05, 2005, 02:43:30 PM
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I'm a 62 year old whose lifelong passion has been aviation. In real life I've reached many related goals including a commercial license with instrument and flight instructor ratings. One thiing however that I never accomplished is flying a complex warbird in combat the closest I came are two hours of aerobatics in an AT-6. Truthfully, it isn't going to happen here either as this is a game. It is however the best combat flight sim around for less than a couple of million. I've played most of the online games; Fighter Ace 1.5 years, Aces High I 1.5 years, WW2OL 2.0 years and WarBirds 1.5 years concurrently and have now returned to AH2. As I said, after careful consideration there is no doubt in my mind that AH2 best simulates the actual environment and flight dynamics of a high performance warbird as well as offering the widest range of tools which real life WW2 fighter pilots would have been inclined to use e.g. mission planning, fuel calculations, navigation etc. Unfortunately, that's where the realism ends. The reality is that as an open commercial enterprise anyone with the subscription money can come in here and pretend he's Dick Bong or Adolf Galland. However, and this is reverse age bias, most people in these games have only a vague idea of who these men were and the world they lived in. To most this is an opportunity to shoot and kill things. I don't have a problem with that and I've surely found that ranting about my opinions on how others should play this game isn't going to do anything about removing my white hair. So, what can I do? Well, I can make this post and ask if there's anybody out there in this vast community that would like to consider themselves more as a re-enactor than a gamer. Who out there is willing to come in to any of the arenas and fly a mission as a real WW2 pilot would have flown it? Who's willing to spend time first planning what is to happen, determining who will do what and only when things are nailed down take off and execute the mission? Who would be willing to apply real life combat tactics on a consistent basis and to share the glory with a wingman or other squadron mates? Who here understands that with few exceptions, real combat airmen flew as a team if they were to have any chance of survival? Should these attributes ring true to you then I want to hear from you but remember what others do isn't important, what's important is that we get to play the game in a way that enhances our immersion level and wins the war for our side.
ElCondor
Rook
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Hi elcondor.
dont loose hope, i agree with you that the main arena has nothing to do with real WW2 combat. But the AH community do run special events that simulate real ww2 missions.
i find those events to be the Gem of the game. and you should give it a try.
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Welp, one of the most important things to remember is that the MA is a "roll your own" enviroment. Its purpose is to allow free-style game play. What you seek is better found in scenerios and snap shots...not the MA.
Additionally, ToD sounds right up your alley. :)
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Good luck with the squad you form. Sounds like it could be fun.
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The MA is not now, nor ever was a place designed for WW2 Re enacment.
It is a place to partake in fighter combat... Ie Dogfighting...with ww2 planes.
It is not designed to be a controled enviorment. You fly what you want, when you want, how you want. And are to answer to no one.
As you may well know ToD or Tour of Duty which is in the works as we speak will be much, MUCH closer to the realities of WW2.
Mission planning, assignments, groups, wings, tactics, actual ranks... From air ground and sea... ToD will convey to the you the player, what WW2 was like as you play it.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The MA is not now, nor ever was a place designed for WW2 Re enacment.
It is if thats what you and yours want to do with it.
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Have you been looking for a way to more fully immerse yourself in the WWII air combat experience? Well, now there is a new squad in AH. It has been formed by a group of pilots who want to develop their skills in the same way that all USAAF pilots did during WWII. From a six month ground school, through primary flight instruction, right on to advanced fighter tactics, we're out to reproduce the experience.
The training will be intensive. It will include the basics of taxiing, take-offs, approach patterns and landings as well as advanced topics such as instrument flying, formation flying, trim control, and advanced Air Combat Maneuvers. All the training will be conducted by a real world pilot with military flight experience. The instruction will make extensive use of multimedia materials, detailed manuals, checklists, actual WWII training films, video conference lectures and practical homework assignments. The training will be accompanied by a program of rigorous testing to ensure that our pilots meet the highest military standards of the WWII period.
Membership is open to anyone who is willing to dedicate the time and effort necessary to achieve the high level of proficiency we've set as our goal.
We try to the the same thing Beeg... If your interested drop the Commanding Officer (longdist@vfs1000.org) a line.
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Originally posted by Tumor
It is if thats what you and yours want to do with it.
No, its the way it (THE MA) was designed. So simulate WW2 fighter combat.
Originally posted by hitech
It is my belief that everone wants to play a game, but want to belive it is a simulation. In reality AH makes a game out of a simulator. And TOD will be no different in that respect. But the game will be quite different.
The goal of TOD is not to be more realistic, even though it may have things that many people would consider more realistic, but rather to simulate a military career and to simulate mission, rather than to just simulating dog fighting as is AH's primary purpose.
TOD will just simulate other things to create a fun game for people who's primary interest in flight sims is not just the dog fights.
HiTech
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Sounds to me like you need a double dose of fri night Squad ops.
Want to hook up with a good squadron to check us out, just drop me a line.
ghosth@mcleodusa.net
We are always glad to be host to someone interested in checking it out.
Squad ops is a one life event, preplanned by CMs. Side CO's decide what targets to attack and defend, and who fly's what where. (escort, bombing, sweep etc) Those orders get sent out during the week. Then Fri night we all do our best to follow those orders and defeat the enemy.
Seriously, it is in my opinion the best flying available in AH. But don't take my opinion for it. Ask anyone who regularly fly's in a squad ops event.
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TheBeeg, the good news is that what you want has been around in spades for quite some time: scenarios. Those are what I fly for, and for the same reasons you mention.
Scenarios are to regular main-arena flying what regular main-arena flying is to a single-player stand-alone game.
For information on scenarios and what they are like, click here:
http://www.electraforge.com/scenarios
Check out the pictorials and the after-action reports and especially the "anatomy of a scenario" page.
I think it's just what you are looking for. Also, if anyone ever wants to talk to me about scenarios, about why I think they are one of the most awesome hobbies that any WWII aviation nut can have, feel free to send me e-mail (brooke at electraforge.com) give me a call at my home number: 425-827-2486 (Pacific time zone in the US).
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I would look to joining a Squad that participates in the Friday Squad Ops Thebeeg. Thats where "WW2 is reenacted" in AH2. Not the MA.
Also the Snapshots that are run weekly, as well as the larger Scenarios.
Imho the MA is a poor fit for somebody looking for WW2 style action, but is your dime.
That might hold you over untill TOD comes out.
Regards.
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My old squadron was the Buccaneers; a squadron very different than most because we all (at first) lived in the same town. On a weekly basis, we would all meet for diner to go over our mission briefings. We would bring maps, written orders, etc. On occasion, some of us would even show up in authentic WWII Army Air Corps uniforms. Sometimes our original CO would have a lesson planned on a particular tactic or aspect, complete with props. We would end the evening by driving home and flying our planned missions. Before RW or VOX, we would make a 12+ person "conference call", to be used as an in-flight radio. When our CO passed on, one of our members stepped up for the job; he was a retired fighter pilot.
Our missions would typically start with the conference call. When everyone was in the call and online we would start in a hanger, taxi out one by one and line up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway. We were all assigned to 4-ship elements and would taxi out in order and take off in pairs in our elements, loop around the field picking up a pair or element on each lap. We would fly in formation and observe strict military radio protocol.
You would hear something like,
Leader: “Blue flight, right to 270 line abreast”
His wingman would reply, “Two”
The second element leader would reply, “Three”
His wingman would reply, “Four”
We spent forever training on how to make all kinds of turns that would either reposition us or keep us in the same positions and we kept pretty tight formations. As a squad we were often terribly ineffective because we spent so much time, effort and focus on protocol, position, and formation; we were, however the most authentic “looking” and “sounding” squad that I have ever seen.
Often our missions were re-enactments of actual WWII air battles or missions. It was not unusual to have a history lesson as part of our pre-mission meeting. Sometimes the mission planner would email News Releases or Top Secret Information to the squad days before a mission.
We often would write after action reports after a mission.
A particular SAR mission stands out.
A Buccaneer intentionally flew deep into enemy territory, but in the middle of nowhere. He then ditched and sent out a radio distress call. We sent 2 C-47s with fighter escorts in to pick him up. (A pick-up was to exit flight when the goon was stopped next to the downed pilot and then join as an observer.) It took forever and we lost about half of our squad, but did manage to get the man out.
Landing from missions was also to military protocol. In fighters or bombers we would fly past our base, peel off in pairs every 10 seconds to spread ourselves out and then land in pairs. We wouldn’t exit until everyone was once again lined up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway.
Whitey
May you rest in peace.
eskimo
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Holy Cow, our website is still up. We havn't been active in years.
Check out some of our old missions:
Buccaneers Mission Archives (http://home.att.net/~the_buccaneers/missionarchives.htm)
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Holy Cow, our website is still up. We havn't been active in years.
Check out some of our old missions:
Buccaneers Mission Archives (http://home.att.net/~the_buccaneers/missionarchives.htm)
eskimo
Here's one of Whitey's:
Pasta Patrol
Historical Information:
The little island of Malta lies strategically in
the middle of the Mediterranean Sea. Situated approximately 60 miles to the south of Sicily, it is well-placed to dominate the sea routes between North Africa and Southern Europe. Sitting astride the narrow central Waist of the sea, it is also positioned to deny east-west passage to vessels travelling between the Suez Canal and the straits of Gibraltar.
All throughout 1941 and 1942. The British on Malta were subjected to continuous and intense air activity from the Axis powers. Many times during the period the island came within days of falling to the German and Italian forces. Italian tactics mainly involved the despatch of large formations of fighters, grouped around a small nucleus of perhaps
three or four bombers, in an effort to bring the Hurricanes and Spitfires up to fight. The forces on Malta continually harassed any shipping or aircraft supply of German and Italian forces operating in the Mediterranean and Rommels forces in North Africa. The situation was so desperate at one time that President, Franklin D Roosevelt agreed to
loan to the royal Navy the carrier USS Wasp and her crew for a short period for ferry duties. Wasp was ideal for the job and 47 Spitfires were loaded aboard her during April of 42 for delivery.
On Oct 26th 1942 Montgomery's great offensive at El Alamein had begun. On Nov 8th Anglo-American forces landed in French Morocco and Algeria, and advanced into Tunisia. At once Kesselring's air forces were
redirected onto this new threat. At a stroke the long Battle of Malta was over. Within six Months the island will become a major base for the first Allied landings on European Territory.
Bombers:
Cant Z.1007bis ( B-26) 33 deg Gruppo/9deg Stormo BT [ 50% fuel 8 500
lb bombs]
Pasta Lead:(B-26s) 15K drop altitude
Uno Capitan Hall "Eskimo"
Due Sergente Hall "Oosik"
Tre Sergente Pace "Jarbo'"
Quattro Sergente Fanning "Gronk"
Macchi C205 374> Squadrigila,153 deg Grouppo CT.[ Full Fuel]
Spaghetti Lead: Capitan Lackey "Knife"
Uno Sergente Forbes "Stingray"
Due Sergente Wannemacher "Whitey"
Tre Sergente Jernejcic "Sabre"
Quattro
Spumoni Lead: Capitan Barrow "Budhman"
Due Sergente Gonzelez "Delta"
Tre Sergente Baschal " Brack"
Quattro Sergente Baschal "coda"
Pizza Lead: Capitan Eager "Wabbit'
Due Sergente Patterson "Bourbon"
Tre Sergente Davis "Qgun"
Quattro Sergente Lankford "Reno"
Briefing at "Denneys" 5:30 pm. Wed Jan 19 th . Will discuss the mission and Four ship tactical Maneuvering. Again you will have but ONE LIFE .
This is as close as we will come to trying to capture a field, as historically the Axis forces were trying to destroy the British airfields as a pre-requisite to invasion of the Island. Our job will be to neutralize a field of our choice. We will not try to take the field ourselves but will advertise for anyone who wants to bring paratroops to the Field we destroy . If you are dead you will be allowed to bring paratroops . Once airborne our bomber lead Capitan Hall will determine the field for attack and the fighters job will be to intercept any enemy fighters coming up to intercept. Manual fuel management . Spagetti flight will range out in front of the bombers. Spumoni flight will range to the right of the bombers. Pizza flight will range to the left of the bombers. Fighters must stay in sight of the bombers at all times.
Sergente Wannemacher
Operations
374> Squadriglia,153 deg Gruppo CT.
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We actually went to a Japanese restaurant before a Zero mission once.
eskimo
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Flyboy;
Thanks. Let me say something about the MA and all the pro and con I've been reading about it since I came back. From my perspective it has nothing to do with the arena, it's what the pilot does with it. I just came from a sim where for almost 2 years I flew nothing but Bf109e or at best 109Fs. Looked very real with trees, towns, roads, infantry to strafe etc. etc. Guess what? It sucked and what people most complained about was the flight model. I agreed but stuck it out. Now back in AH2 I haven't heard one complaint about the flight modeling (ok maybe a couple small ones). I believe that its' the best FM around under the premise that as a real life pilot I know that even I with over 4000 hrs. in "heavy" Cessna 150s and 172s would kill myself if I ever tried to fly the airplanes we have in here. It's about the immersion factor and what the game looks like not about the airplanes for me. I can enjoy the MA as well as the CT or any scenarios as long as things look realistic to me e.g. I don't like seeing a formation of B24s escorted by 190's but I don't have a choice because I like to play every day and it's only in the MA where I stand even a remote chance of being able to escort a group of B24s in my P38 or P51. Also, believe it or not, I'm somewhat impressed with the discipline that most if not all show while on vox. I left AH1 just as vox came out and back then nobody used it. Conclusion; Nothing wrong with the MA as long as you're flying with a bunch of like minded individuals. I most definetely will check out all the available scenarios.
ElCondor
Originally posted by Flyboy
Hi elcondor.
dont loose hope, i agree with you that the main arena has nothing to do with real WW2 combat. But the AH community do run special events that simulate real ww2 missions.
i find those events to be the Gem of the game. and you should give it a try.
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Thanks NoBaddy;
Yes, I'm up for TOD but I just hope that it's implemented better than the system in the sim I just left which provided us with full military hiarchies but provided too much latitude to squads who would or would not get with the master plan depending on how the CO's wife treated him that day. Nothing wrong with rolling your own. Frustration only comes when one tries to ram their style of game play down others throats. Amazingly though there isn't any high command calling the shots I'm impressed with the way that many play in the MA and very unimpressed by the Napoleons who feel it necessary to choke the country buffer with their opinions and statements like "somebody post a mission" What's wrong with their fingers is the only thing I can bring myself to think.
El Condor
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Welp, one of the most important things to remember is that the MA is a "roll your own" enviroment. Its purpose is to allow free-style game play. What you seek is better found in scenerios and snap shots...not the MA.
Additionally, ToD sounds right up your alley. :)
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Agree Morpheus. The MA is what you make it. As I said elsewhere TOD is a great idea and I can't wait but in my book to be successful it needs to follow a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad" You can't run a military operation when people have the option to do this and not do that. Unless the rules are as stringent as they would be in real life things would just deteriorate into the kind of situation I just left where it took me two years to rise to the rank of Oberst (Colonel) and yet I didn't have one bit of authority over anyone of lower rank. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a power trip I'm talking about, it's just that if you have a military simulation without somebody giving and somebody taking orders then all you have is a bunch of huns running around in loin cloths with no purpose other than to kill whomever is in front of them. Wars are won by channelling that aggression into a coordinated effort. I hope TOD will simulate that or it will be deja vu time.
Thanks
ElCondor
Originally posted by Morpheus
The MA is not now, nor ever was a place designed for WW2 Re enacment.
It is a place to partake in fighter combat... Ie Dogfighting...with ww2 planes.
It is not designed to be a controled enviorment. You fly what you want, when you want, how you want. And are to answer to no one.
As you may well know ToD or Tour of Duty which is in the works as we speak will be much, MUCH closer to the realities of WW2.
Mission planning, assignments, groups, wings, tactics, actual ranks... From air ground and sea... ToD will convey to the you the player, what WW2 was like as you play it.
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Eskimo2;
Your post if very interesting and I'll read it all. However something struck me that I think is very important in getting along with people in this game. I notice that you list where you live. You'll notice that I do also. My reason is that I want to meet and play with anyone with whom I can have a truly personal relationship. What you mentioned about meeting face to face with other members of your squad is an excellent idea. I've met a lot of great guys online but nothing is ever going to replace the kind of camaraderie you'll get if you can get to meet your mates face to face or at bare minimum know a little more about them than an 8 character nick. No matter how much we want to BS ourselves, nothing takes the place of real human interaction and I suspect that a squad made up of people who know each other would be a much more rewarding experience. So if you're location shows that you're in bum****, IA just because somebody told you that there were nasty ugly people on the internet, may I suggest you tell us where you really are and who knows you might find out that your boss is the bastage you've been shooting down regularly :lol
El Condor
Originally posted by eskimo2
My old squadron was the Buccaneers; a squadron very different than most because we all (at first) lived in the same town. On a weekly basis, we would all meet for diner to go over our mission briefings. We would bring maps, written orders, etc. On occasion, some of us would even show up in authentic WWII Army Air Corps uniforms. Sometimes our original CO would have a lesson planned on a particular tactic or aspect, complete with props. We would end the evening by driving home and flying our planned missions. Before RW or VOX, we would make a 12+ person "conference call", to be used as an in-flight radio. When our CO passed on, one of our members stepped up for the job; he was a retired fighter pilot.
Our missions would typically start with the conference call. When everyone was in the call and online we would start in a hanger, taxi out one by one and line up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway. We were all assigned to 4-ship elements and would taxi out in order and take off in pairs in our elements, loop around the field picking up a pair or element on each lap. We would fly in formation and observe strict military radio protocol.
You would hear something like,
Leader: “Blue flight, right to 270 line abreast”
His wingman would reply, “Two”
The second element leader would reply, “Three”
His wingman would reply, “Four”
We spent forever training on how to make all kinds of turns that would either reposition us or keep us in the same positions and we kept pretty tight formations. As a squad we were often terribly ineffective because we spent so much time, effort and focus on protocol, position, and formation; we were, however the most authentic “looking” and “sounding” squad that I have ever seen.
Often our missions were re-enactments of actual WWII air battles or missions. It was not unusual to have a history lesson as part of our pre-mission meeting. Sometimes the mission planner would email News Releases or Top Secret Information to the squad days before a mission.
We often would write after action reports after a mission.
A particular SAR mission stands out.
A Buccaneer intentionally flew deep into enemy territory, but in the middle of nowhere. He then ditched and sent out a radio distress call. We sent 2 C-47s with fighter escorts in to pick him up. (A pick-up was to exit flight when the goon was stopped next to the downed pilot and then join as an observer.) It took forever and we lost about half of our squad, but did manage to get the man out.
Landing from missions was also to military protocol. In fighters or bombers we would fly past our base, peel off in pairs every 10 seconds to spread ourselves out and then land in pairs. We wouldn’t exit until everyone was once again lined up wing tip to wing tip in a perfect row along the runway.
Whitey
May you rest in peace.
eskimo
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Ghost, Brooke & Squire;
Thanks, will try your suggestions.
Beeg
aka ElCondor
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Eskimo2;
Your post if very interesting and I'll read it all. However something struck me that I think is very important in getting along with people in this game. I notice that you list where you live. You'll notice that I do also. My reason is that I want to meet and play with anyone with whom I can have a truly personal relationship. What you mentioned about meeting face to face with other members of your squad is an excellent idea. I've met a lot of great guys online but nothing is ever going to replace the kind of camaraderie you'll get if you can get to meet your mates face to face or at bare minimum know a little more about them than an 8 character nick. No matter how much we want to BS ourselves, nothing takes the place of real human interaction and I suspect that a squad made up of people who know each other would be a much more rewarding experience. So if you're location shows that you're in bum****, IA just because somebody told you that there were nasty ugly people on the internet, may I suggest you tell us where you really are and who knows you might find out that your boss is the bastage you've been shooting down regularly :lol
El Condor
Most of our squad was recruited from R/L as aviation buffs. Whitey sold is on Warbirds (96ish) and taught us how to fly online. A few were found who already lived in the area and flew WB.
eskimo
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It has been mentioned upstream, but I thought it would bear repeating. If you have your Friday nights free, you should try to hook up with a "Friday Squad Ops" squadron. Just start a thread here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=60
telling people what you're looking for some squad will probably jump to get you. I'm sure the Shillelagh Squadron would have room for you if you want to fly with them, however the Shills probably lack the level of organization you're looking for.
In the end you will probably be best served starting your own squadron, but just keep FSO in mind, since I really think it would be the best environment for your squadron to thrive.
-Sik
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Agree Morpheus. The MA is what you make it. As I said elsewhere TOD is a great idea and I can't wait but in my book to be successful it needs to follow a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad" You can't run a military operation when people have the option to do this and not do that. Unless the rules are as stringent as they would be in real life things would just deteriorate into the kind of situation I just left where it took me two years to rise to the rank of Oberst (Colonel) and yet I didn't have one bit of authority over anyone of lower rank. Don't get me wrong, it isn't a power trip I'm talking about, it's just that if you have a military simulation without somebody giving and somebody taking orders then all you have is a bunch of huns running around in loin cloths with no purpose other than to kill whomever is in front of them. Wars are won by channelling that aggression into a coordinated effort. I hope TOD will simulate that or it will be deja vu time.
Thanks
ElCondor
I agree with most of what you said. Not that, that matters much.
In my humble opinion ToD will either live or die based on finding a happy medium between rules/regs and fun.
a "true" military hiarchy and whomever is in charge needs to have the availability of a "virtual firing squad"
I can tell you right now, if I see this as a part of ToD, my stay will be short lived. That entire statement gives no idea for "fun".
Ok what is fun?
Obviosly thats a loaded question. Fun can be anything to anyone.
Maybe some enjoy the thought of being ordered about vigorously by some over weight,47 yr old gas station attendant who lives his on line life as a supreme general in the virtual world of Aces High. I personally do not.
The ultimate say in what goes on with ToD, should reside with HTC. I will bet the family farm that no one player will have the right nor ability to "order" someone to your virtual "firing squad". If, by the slim chance, that is the case... you wont find many players there.
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Ahhhhhh my friend, now you give me food for additional discourse. You've brought up some points which have often been on my mind.
1. "FUN" - Personally I hate that word strictly from the perspective upon which I look at these sims. To me they are a vehicle to re-enact an extremely ugly human condition - War. War is not fun. War is an ugly and deadly business into which ordinary men are thrust. How these ordinary mortals survive within this horrible condition is what I'm interested in. My enjoyment in playing comes from being as realistic and true to what these real men must have experienced and not solely from the act of simulating the destruction of human life. My enjoyment must come from utilizing the lessons of history and the human condition to relive history through the proper use of the tactics and strategies available to these men.
2. I've had many a thought about those fat 47 year old non-credentialed nitwits who have absolutely no idea of what war is or how to best lead men in battle living out their fantasies at night by ordering others to horrible flaming deaths. However, I think I have a solution for a simulator like what I envision the TOD arena to be in AH. What's necessary is that the publisher totally control the high command of each side. How? By canvassing for and "hiring" for hard money people who have the necessary credentials e.g. strong military background in the appropriate field or other provable life experience as temporary part time consultants. These people would then be charged to recruit likely capable candidates from the player base to act as lower echelon commanders who would in fact have the authority to execute (ban) anyone not playing within the rules. All candidates would need to be screened thoroughly, as you would any prospective employee, to verify their capablity to handle the job at hand and to show the necessary maturity and business skills which would prevent them from abusing the power given to them. I wouldn't have any problem, and in fact would suggest, that resumes be posted listing each candidates true identify and credentials and allowing the community to vote on their preference. However as you state, the ultimate control must remain in the hands of the publisher. Anyone who tells you that a player based control of a war game simulation works, without some kickass rules from the publisher, is living a fantasy. I just left a place where this is supposed to work and my experience was that it was full of jobless Napoleons who wouldn't take advice from a Norman Schwartzkopf or even Mommy or Daddy. Undoubtedly there are some dedicated people trying to do their best but their efforts are totally screwed up by unrespectful adolescents of all ages. Give me total structure and control in a military simulation or it's just an other shoot-em-up.
El Condor
P.S. Nothing beats following a leader you truly respect.
Originally posted by Morpheus
I agree with most of what you said. Not that, that matters much.
In my humble opinion ToD will either live or die based on finding a happy medium between rules/regs and fun.
I can tell you right now, if I see this as a part of ToD, my stay will be short lived. That entire statement gives no idea for "fun".
Ok what is fun?
Obviosly thats a loaded question. Fun can be anything to anyone.
Maybe some enjoy the thought of being ordered about vigorously by some over weight,47 yr old gas station attendant who lives his on line life as a supreme general in the virtual world of Aces High. I personally do not.
The ultimate say in what goes on with ToD, should reside with HTC. I will bet the family farm that no one player will have the right nor ability to "order" someone to your virtual "firing squad". If, by the slim chance, that is the case... you wont find many players there.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
How? By canvassing for and "hiring" for hard money people who have the necessary credentials e.g. strong military background in the appropriate field or other provable life experience as temporary part time consultants. These people would then be charged to recruit likely capable candidates from the player base to act as lower echelon commanders who would in fact have the authority to execute (ban) anyone not playing within the rules.
El Condor
P.S. Nothing beats following a leader you truly respect.
Don't suppose you could suggest any outstanding candidates for such a job to HT?
Yourself maybe?
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This isnt war, its a game.
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Amen.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
No, its the way it (THE MA) was designed. So simulate WW2 fighter combat.
Your being narrow minded, if you want to re-create WWII tactics and Operations, you can. It's been done. Fighter Combat is nothing more than a piece of the pie, and you don't have to have a map of Europe or the Pacific to fly with a group that want's to do that.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Your being narrow minded, if you want to re-create WWII tactics and Operations, you can. It's been done. Fighter Combat is nothing more than a piece of the pie, and you don't have to have a map of Europe or the Pacific to fly with a group that want's to do that.
No I am not. I am telling it like it is. HT himself said it. ToD is otw for those who want to be real life imaginary WW2 pilots. The MA always was to simulate dog fighting. Did you see what HT said?
I understand the fact that anyone can do what they want in the MA. But while you have this great new squad forming up to "re-enact" some battle.... The rest of the MA will be rolling La7s, Niks, Spits and anythign else to come and ponce on them. What's so historical about that? Nothing.
The MA was never meant to be historical. If it was, we'd have had axis vs allies, a rolling plane set and it would have failed miserably like the last bunch who tried it.
ToD is coming for those who want that kind of thing. And not just throwing people in to a server either. Its going to be an organized and orchestrated arena. Missions, air bosses, CO's, ranks that will allow you more authority.
There's an ass, for every pot. HT's just making sure he's got one of every seat. Smart move.
I personaly can't wait to see what ToD is like. I doubt it will be able to keep me occupied and away from the MA for long... I dont like long flights, with no kills. I am here for the fight. But once in a while that kind of thing is a nice change of pace... Which is why I enjoy the squad ops from time to time in the special events arena. I am sure I will enjoy ToD from time to time as well.
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Absolutely not. Closest I've been to combat is reading about it. I have no credentials to fill a job as I've described. Under the assumption that TOD is to be as close a simulation to being a combat airman in WW2 and not the run of the mill arena where as others have stated we have a game vs. a truly strategic combat simulation then and only under those circumstances, the kind of candidate I'm talking about would be someone with legitimate credentials. Since some people might have a problem understanding what I'm talking about or just want to argue for the sake of arguement, I'll elaborate. The kind of person I'm thinking about could be a retired military officer with extensive study in combat tactics and strategies and preferrably actual combat experience. Somebody whom if you met him in person would immediately earn your respect. Somebody whose credentials are clear and unimpeacheable. One thing I've learned in 6+ years playing these sims is that respect is as rare a snow in June when the only thing you know about an individual is an 8 letter nick. People have the tendency to be extremely rude and just plain ignorant when they have no fear of being seen for what they really are and will definetely not follow orders which is necessary if a true war game. Again, this assumes that TOD would be such if not then it don't matter one hoot.
El Condor
Originally posted by Toad
Don't suppose you could suggest any outstanding candidates for such a job to HT?
Yourself maybe?
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. "FUN" - Personally I hate that word strictly from the perspective upon which I look at these sims.
As I said before buddy, "Fun" is what you enjoy doing.
If you think my idea of fun is being orderd about by some fat over weight 47yrd old brick layer is fun the you have another thing coming.
War. War is not fun.
HELLO!
This AINT war my friend. This, the MA is just a game. It serves no purpose to me other than to fight. I do not wish to take bases, thus I fight.
Fighting is my idea of fun.
If you want to get ordered about by all means, go right ahead.
Btw, those words you quoted didnt all come from me... They came from the owner and creator of the game. So you go ahead and you tell that to Hitech. I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing I did.
You think hes stupid? You think he thinks that the entire population of aces high is here to be ordered about in some clever plane orchestrated to win the war? Who's war? For who's country? not mine. I dont fly for anyone but myself.
You think that I am the only person with this mind set? Think again.
I just left a place where this is supposed to work and my experience was that it was full of jobless Napoleons who wouldn't take advice from a Norman Schwartzkopf or even Mommy or Daddy.
Give me total structure and control in a military simulation or it's just an other shoot-em-up.
Jesus... If that aint the Pot calling the kettle black than I dont know what is.
You think you are the only player ever to step into a sim that wants to "lead"?
It begs the question... Who are you to think you have the right, yet authority to lead? More right than them?
I really dont give a rats behind who you think you are. In the MA im going to fly how I want to fly, when I want to fly, where I want to fly, what I want to fly. Why? Because I can.
When ToD comes out, you can devote you're entire on line life to becoming that 4 star general you always longed for... Like I said... that is your idea of what is fun. If you didnt think it was fun you wouldnt log on in. You wouldnt pay.
If you wanted war, hell, blood, tears and wanted to pay for it, get married.
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You're 100% correct. The present version is a game with very little control by anyone. I'm talking about what I would like to see in a TOD arena which would present me with an opportunity to re-enact vs. game e.g. I show up, am assigned a career parth which would probably put me in whatever airplane I'm best capable of flying and I'm stuck there for the duration rising throught the ranks dependent on my performance and ability to follow orders and complete my missions. I spend my time in hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror and hopefully I survive, leave the military, study law under the GI Bill, get married, have lots of children, make money and then die with Tom Brokaw calling me part of The Greatest Generation. Don't like my idea of re-enactment? Don't worry unless I win the lottery and buy HTC this won't happen :lol
El Condor
Originally posted by Grits
This isnt war, its a game.
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I really dislike the term "re-enact" and I much prefer the term "wargame".
Re-enacting is just that, its a scripted battle where participants follow a set course, and the winner and loser is pre ordained. Example, re-enacting Gettysburg. We know who will win.
Wargaming is two sides fighting in a simulation (board game or pc game usually), where the outcome is not already decided.
As for requiring real life officers to "wargame" with - this has never been a requirement that I have ever heard to have a succesfull session, most wargamers are civilian military history buffs.
I think you just need to find a group of friends (thats what a squad is to me), that share your enthusiasm for historical missions.
Im retired from AH2 for now, otherwise I would invite you for a few Friday Squad Ops with my old unit.
Your post struck a chord with me because of all the great times I had with my squads over the years, and I hate to see somebody so obviously bummed out about historical style play. I had a lot of fun doing it, like I say, you just need to find the right group, but I dont think you have to enlist for real to find that.
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Well, if Beeg's vision is the future ToD, I predict it'll have about the same success as the current CT. Or even the CT in it's heyday.
I know I won't be there and that'll make both of us happy, I'm sure.
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Squire;
You're probably right that a better term would be wargame. Re-enactors also "act" the part and this might be carrying things a little too far for the average war sim gamer e.g. going out and spending a couple of thou for the proper high boots and leather jacket. Occasionally I've heard a "horrido" or "tally-ho" online but when it's immediately followed by "kill the dude" I suspect the immersion level goes right out the window :lol
Regarding my suggestion about retired officers. This isn't cast in concrete, it's just an opinion based on my own personal perception that perhaps those charged with running such a massive undertaking need some kind of serious management credentials whether from the civilian or military sectors and be accustomed to the level of planning required to run a large scale operation. Voluntereers just don't cut it by my experience in the other game I play. The "war" needs to be run on a full time basis to eliminate those "where the hell is the high command" complaints and "were getting killed because nobody is around to call the shots" Morale goes down the tubes fast in that environment. Again, this again supposes that we're talking about TOD being a strategic and massive "war game"
Last but not least I'm not bummed out at all. I play almost every day in all the arenas as well as venturing back to the other two sims I play. I've accepted the fact that what you see is what you get. I have no qualms with others playing any which way they please. I just think that it's much more enjoyable for me to play as realistically as possible and the purpose of this post was to find out just who those people are who would agree with me. I suppose that the only negative I have about how others play in AH is that many don't seem to appreciate or properly use some of the fantastic tools which HT has provided e.g. mission planner, films etc.
El Condor
Originally posted by Squire
I really dislike the term "re-enact" and I much prefer the term "wargame".
Re-enacting is just that, its a scripted battle where participants follow a set course, and the winner and loser is pre ordained. Example, re-enacting Gettysburg. We know who will win.
Wargaming is two sides fighting in a simulation (board game or pc game usually), where the outcome is not already decided.
As for requiring real life officers to "wargame" with - this has never been a requirement that I have ever heard to have a succesfull session, most wargamers are civilian military history buffs.
I think you just need to find a group of friends (thats what a squad is to me), that share your enthusiasm for historical missions.
Im retired from AH2 for now, otherwise I would invite you for a few Friday Squad Ops with my old unit.
Your post struck a chord with me because of all the great times I had with my squads over the years, and I hate to see somebody so obviously bummed out about historical style play. I had a lot of fun doing it, like I say, you just need to find the right group, but I dont think you have to enlist for real to find that.
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TheBeeg ? / El Condor ? / Voss ?
Food for thought........ :eek:
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ElCondor, for realistic missions (albeit single player) you should check out Il2 Forgotten Battles. Graphics are stunning, cockpits look like their real counterparts, damage modeling is light years ahead of AH2 and the plane handling is also better.
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Scenarios are the solution. Try the next one that comes up, and you'll see.
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Late to the party as it's been a busy week.
Just my take. I am also an aviation history nut and love the historical aspect of the game.
That being said, I've always looked at it from the viewpoint of the experiences of the civilllians turned combat pilots of WW2.
The wartime set up was a whole lot different from the peacetime set up of the Squadrons. It was a lot less spit and polish and a lot more figuring it out on the fly and guys using their own initiative.
As others have mentioned, Scenarios are where you can find some of what you are looking for. They are much better for letting you get into the role you want to play.
Even then it's still gotta be about guys having fun though. Going back to the Airwarrior scenarios for me, I tended to have fun with the history surrounding whichever squadron I was basing the scenario group I was a part of on . Lots of folks played along with that too, but it had to be fun. The armchair general stuff just doesn't work for most and that would include me.
I wish you luck finding a crowd that wants to play it the way you want, but all it takes is a couple guys bouncing your impeccable formation and it's still going to be the individual pilots making it work.
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by DipStick
TheBeeg ? / El Condor ? / Voss ?
Food for thought........ :eek:
I think Beeg might be Beeger? Rampaging Rooks of Retribution? He was from PA too I believe.
Hell, if it is, he is one of the people that showed me the ropes when I first started playing.
So Beegerite if it is you.
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Originally posted by Brooke
Scenarios are the solution. Try the next one that comes up, and you'll see.
'
Yep. If you would have seen the effort that Brooke and the other Torpedo guys put into the Coral Sea Scenario, you would never want for organization again. It was just amazing to see so many people working together for a common goal in aircraft that are usually considered "throw away" (B5N and TBM).
-Sik
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Daaaaam! Recognized by a coal cracker. Yes, that was me in the olden days. Thanks for remembering the RRR :)
Originally posted by Nefarious
I think Beeg might be Beeger? Rampaging Rooks of Retribution? He was from PA too I believe.
Hell, if it is, he is one of the people that showed me the ropes when I first started playing.
So Beegerite if it is you.
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An aside: I do enjoy scenarios and have been graciously invited to check a couple out as a guest. I'm going to be there in spades as I have been in every single sim I've played. No substitute for organized team work in my book. At the risk of starting an arena wee wee contest let me relate an experience tonight in the MA. At least 100 Rooks were attempting to take A9 Wave upon wave of bombers, fighters, fighter-bombers took off, did their dirty work and I hope returned to base. We had a fleet sitting in close proximity and it sure looked as it should have been a gimme. But nooooooooooo! No missions posted, no coordination, no nothing just a useless slaughter. Fun? I had a couple of nice heart pounding encounters and I guess that was "fun" but where is the satisfaction of working together? Why wasn't the base taken in 15 mins? It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it was the MA, it has to do with the fact that there was no organization, communication or any one person willing to put their name on the line as the leader of the Great A9 Debacle. On the other hand I have been in the MA when somebody has taken it upon themselves to organize a formal mission and not only was the initial target base taken but a momentum was created which resulted in multiple bases falling to the Rook juggernaut. Now, I'm pretty new around this new version but I promise you that once I learn the ropes I'm going to be posting missions till my fingers fall off. The only concession to my realistic urges would be that if I posted a mission it wouldn't be a mix of Allied and Axis aircraft. Both sides have good enough aircraft that missions can be constructed to have the look and feel of reality. I would urge anyone familiar with the process to post missions. Maybe nobody will join but to me it's the best way to learn the process and change the mindset from that of the rampaging Capital One horde (I love them guys) to an organized fighting force that can get things done. Simple as that.
El Condor
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
We had a fleet sitting in close proximity and it sure looked as it should have been a gimme. But nooooooooooo! No missions posted, no coordination, no nothing just a useless slaughter.
For a lot of us, the useless slaughter is the only reason we play. The longer the useless slaughter lasts the better IMO.
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that it was the MA, it has to do with the fact that there was no organization, communication or any one person willing to put their name on the line as the leader of the Great A9 Debacle. On the other hand I have been in the MA when somebody has taken it upon themselves to organize a formal mission and not only was the initial target base taken but a momentum was created which resulted in multiple bases falling
A couple things. 1) come to the bishops. 2) missions can and do work when for whatever reasons the hoard becomes inspiried. It reminds me of the warner bros. cartoons of either the pack of hounds after a fox and the heads of the dogs poke out of their swirling pack or . . . and i forget which cartoon, but the line is "dahhh, which way did they go which way did they go?" In either case, it's lots of fun and i like what is accomplished. 3) many people love to play this game for . . . someone said it earlier "sensless carnage?" for them, that's the thrill.
hap
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I hear ya El Condor,
If you're looking for that type of teamwork and or type of gameplay there is only one place to find it
L T A R
What you discribe we do on a daily basis, less of course we're getting 142 500lbr's dropped on our heads from dive bombing Lanc's or B17's.
Have a wonderful day
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Beeger? I think I remember you from WB! I was scrmbl.
Good luck finding what you're looking for here. I can understand your somewhat thinly veiled frustration. I've long believed that the pricing plan affects who plays, and how the game is played. You can remember the old $2/hr days. A price like that meant that only reasonably well heeled guys, typically in their 30s/40s and up could afford to play. This was good for two reasons. 1) There WAS, I believe, more respect - maybe not that much, but some, and I never EVER saw any of that "it's MY $14.95" crap (or "it's MY $2/hr") in WB that I was seeing on a daily basis in AH. 2) Because the average age of player was higher, guys like us whose fathers actually served in WW2 (my father served in the RAF) had a direct link to what WW2 was about. People like you and I are interested in re-enactments. For me, I wanted to be able to see what the various planes were like, and explore the role they might have had in WW2.
But with no hourly fee, and a price of a mere 50 cents a day, anyone can have an AH account. So the average subscriber's age is much less. So we get the teens/20 somethings. Because they are so much younger than us, there are one or even two intervening generations of their families before you get up to the generation that served in WW2. So they are not interested in re-enactments. They were never able to talk to their fathers - as we could - about what WW2 was really like. To some of them, it was just an event that their great-grandparents lived through and knew about, and they probably never knew their great-grandparents. To them, it's just a Quake-style shoot-em-up. A lot of people lamented the gunnery change in AH2, and wanted the AH1 800yd gunnery because it was "more fun". To you and me, that would be anathema!
Funked was so right about what was missing in AH - "$2/hr keeping all the tardz out". :lol
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There isn't any reason the MA can't be made more realistic, and it wouldn't require a tremendous amount of planning.
Anyone remember Filth's bomber mission from a few months back...which he advertised in advance? When I logged on that night I was flabbergasted to see a massive green line advancing on our hq. My squad members were all on to witness and take part in the spectacle.
Per the instructions of my squad co I upped a fighter...a 109 G-10 with a drop tank. I climbed and paralleled the stream and eventually entered combat above 30k, where I and many other defenders mixed it up with the escorts.
Managed to shoot down a mustang, got jumped by another, entered a rolling, jinking dive to try to wipe him off, got shot to 'ell before a teammate waxed his little red wagon, and managed to land that wreck at one of our bases.
That was the most fun I've ever had in the MA. I'd love to see more missions like that.
Regards, Shuckins
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Beetle;
I would tend to agree with you that one needs a sense of the history of the period to be able to see things from the perspective I see it. One thing that helps me with that is that I do a lot of WW2 TV watching, listen to 40's music on XM radio and read all I can on what the world was like in that decade. Also, I'm somewhat fortunate in that I'm able to afford having subs in AH2, WW2OL and WB concurrently so if the dweeb factor gets to high anywhere I can always shift gears and cool down a bit.
Beeg
aka ElCondor
Originally posted by beet1e
Beeger? I think I remember you from WB! I was scrmbl.
Good luck finding what you're looking for here. I can understand your somewhat thinly veiled frustration. I've long believed that the pricing plan affects who plays, and how the game is played. You can remember the old $2/hr days. A price like that meant that only reasonably well heeled guys, typically in their 30s/40s and up could afford to play. This was good for two reasons. 1) There WAS, I believe, more respect - maybe not that much, but some, and I never EVER saw any of that "it's MY $14.95" crap (or "it's MY $2/hr") in WB that I was seeing on a daily basis in AH. 2) Because the average age of player was higher, guys like us whose fathers actually served in WW2 (my father served in the RAF) had a direct link to what WW2 was about. People like you and I are interested in re-enactments. For me, I wanted to be able to see what the various planes were like, and explore the role they might have had in WW2.
But with no hourly fee, and a price of a mere 50 cents a day, anyone can have an AH account. So the average subscriber's age is much less. So we get the teens/20 somethings. Because they are so much younger than us, there are one or even two intervening generations of their families before you get up to the generation that served in WW2. So they are not interested in re-enactments. They were never able to talk to their fathers - as we could - about what WW2 was really like. To some of them, it was just an event that their great-grandparents lived through and knew about, and they probably never knew their great-grandparents. To them, it's just a Quake-style shoot-em-up. A lot of people lamented the gunnery change in AH2, and wanted the AH1 800yd gunnery because it was "more fun". To you and me, that would be anathema!
Funked was so right about what was missing in AH - "$2/hr keeping all the tardz out". :lol
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Shuckins;
I totally agree and would add that it doesn't matter what others do as these games are all about giving the player the perspective he/she wants to see. Paralelling what you're saying, if I'm in a large bomber stream of B-17s escorted by Jugs and Pony's at 25,000 feet I'm in WW2. Doesn't bother me at all that when the enemy shows up they're flying a Spit as when the action gets hot and furious I can always turn the icons off with a flick of my pinkie finger. The key to the kind of experience you recount is taking the initiative to create realistic missions for others to join or not as they see fit. It's about how "I" play not what others do or don't.
Beeg
aka ElCondor
Originally posted by Shuckins
There isn't any reason the MA can't be made more realistic, and it wouldn't require a tremendous amount of planning.
Anyone remember Filth's bomber mission from a few months back...which he advertised in advance? When I logged on that night I was flabbergasted to see a massive green line advancing on our hq. My squad members were all on to witness and take part in the spectacle.
Per the instructions of my squad co I upped a fighter...a 109 G-10 with a drop tank. I climbed and paralleled the stream and eventually entered combat above 30k, where I and many other defenders mixed it up with the escorts.
Managed to shoot down a mustang, got jumped by another, entered a rolling, jinking dive to try to wipe him off, got shot to 'ell before a teammate waxed his little red wagon, and managed to land that wreck at one of our bases.
That was the most fun I've ever had in the MA. I'd love to see more missions like that.
Regards, Shuckins
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Wait, I'm still stuck on the contraposition of 'mature' and 're-enactors'.
I always that the two of them couldn't exist together in our universe.