Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kieren on December 05, 2000, 04:29:00 PM
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Al Gore is now openly going for Seminole county.
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Wow - not a good move. Gore would rightly benefit from any proceeding that fell in his favour, but it's a horrible idea for him to actually get behind this wih his own lawyers/money.
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Now to be fair, he has only gotten on the media and spoke strongly about how unfair Seminole is- but there has already been a connection made between the litigant and one of Gore's lawyers. The fellow filing the lawsuit swore no contact with any member of the Gore team, then under oath was forced to admit he had. I don't know whether that should matter legally, but it is politcally dangerous.
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Of course Gore is behind it, whether he publicly admits it or not. Do you really think a private citizen would go to all this trouble and spend his own cash? Maybe, but highly unlikely. It turns out he spoke with Gore's attorneys to get find out exactly how to proceed.
(http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=view_photo&ID_Community=Raubspics&ID_Topic=2&ID_Message=5)
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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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And this surprises you?
Bore has lied the whole time this re-re-re-count has been going on.
He said he would not take legal action if Palm Beach, Broward and, Miami-Dade were able to re-re-count. They had the opportunity to count and he lost so he STILL went to court.
He said he wasn't trying to get Absentee ballots thrown out but he is.
He said if the Floriduh Supreme court rules against him again he will concede, now he is saying he won't.
How many lies does it take before the rest of the Demos start worrying about their own careers?
Al Bore has no future and he knows it so he is going to hang on and do anything it takes to win.
I'm just wondering if when he concedes will he try to make it sound like he was being the BIG man by doing so?
Will he try to make it sound like he had OTHER options but chose NOT to do them for the GOOD of the nation?
Hell the latest CNN (Clinton National Network) poll says that over 80% of the people polled said Bore should concede.
Will he? Not until he has no other options.
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Methinks as well it's time for Gore to admit defeat. Sure, the counts error margin is greater that the victory margin but it could have been to his advantage.
Just accept defeat and keep playing the game.
He is gonna lose sympathy big time if he keeps this up. I sense the Ameican people as a whole are sick and tired of the legal wrangling.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
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Okay, I'm confused, maybe some Liberals on this board can help explain the Democratic parties stance on this...
First, they say 'Every vote must be counted', but of course, only in Democratic counties..
Now they want to DISCOUNT any votes in Seminole county , which goes against their claim that every vote must be counted...
So, what is it, every vote must be counted, or only votes that favor the democrat candidate?
I'm confused on their misleading statements.
What message is it they are trying to portray?
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Hate to say it, Ripsnort, but they got the goods this time.
I would rather see Bush take the high road and say "The law is important" than to sink to the depths the Gore campaign has in the last month.
I know that is not likely to happen, but it would sure raise the respectability of the Republican party beyond all ability of Al Gore to spin it around. He would have his presidency, but he would pay dearly for it.
Fact is, law was broken. It is up to the court to decide what should be done about it. We cannot stand hard on the law on one hand, then want to bend the rules on the other.
Of course I would be remiss if I didn't point out how Al is publicly pushing this case along on the P.R. front with yesterday's news conference. He didn't want to touch this case last week because of the case with Sauls, but oh how quickly he reached for the tactical nuclear strike button when the Sauls case went sour. You are right there, Rip, it is a reverse of his position that he will pay for. Funny thing though, the Republicans are forced to use the FSC decision in part to argue against discounting the expulsion of the absentee ballots.
Stranger than fiction.
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I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, but from information I've gathered, the Voter's registration numbers were filled in (Computer glitch left them out) manually (Machine couldn't read the number)...to me that seems reasonable, but if its breaking the law, then I say throw them out, give Gore the victory, and then those Gore supporters will get to sleep in the bed they made! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (Problem is, its my bed too, and I don't like bed bugs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Theres also a conflict of interest here, the judge the Dems are asking to review this case was turned down by Jed Bush 4 weeks ago for an Appeals court judge position, talk about trying to stack the deck in your favor! Heheh, them Dems will do ANYTHING, won't they?
Seems like they are trying to throw out votes where voter intent is obvious, but they want them thrown out on hyper-technicalities...yet 'Every vote must count!'....come, where are the respectable Democrats out there? Chime in any time and flame your own party..
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 12-06-2000).]
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The twist is whether or not the Democrats were excluded from the process, or whether they just didn't take the same steps as the Republicans. I don't know, but that seems like it may be the deciding point for many people.
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:::chuckles::: Well, if its a matter of law, why aren't you flaming your own party for being hypocritical, Rip? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Its not enough to say throw those votes out. You need to denounce those nasty Republicans for saying the rule of law must be upheld with regard to the certification deadline but can be circumvented when filling out voter cards for those machines that happened to make an error. And darn, if that isn't interesting that its okay for a human to correct a machine error in regard to voter cards and not with a ballot (I am pleading ignorance up front here, I don't know whether the voter card thing is law or not, I am going by what Kieren posted)
Seriously, I don't see how anyone can be happy with either party after this. My respect for the democratic party is considerably less than it was a month ago. I certainly haven't gained any respect for the republican party throughout this mess. At best its a push for them, but then I didn't think much of Bush & co. to begin with.
All I am really left feeling after all of this is disappointment.
Gordo
EDIT: Fixed that, Rip (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 12-06-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 12-06-2000).]
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Gordo, it was the computer that didn't read the numbers (Voter registration number) correctly, not the voters failing to fill it in.
You, as a Democrat, and I gather a respectable one, need to contact your party and let them KNOW you're disappointed. Or there *may* be only one strong party after this election, they keep burying themselves day after day in this election.
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It is a matter of technical law, for which those filling out the ballot applications should be prosecuted. However, no one has made a single suggestion that the ballots cast are not real ballots, from real voters, indicating their real choices.
For the record, what happened is the registration numbers are supposed to be preprinted on the mailouts. (They were preprinted on the democratic applications. That is why the same courtesy wasn't given to the democrats (boy you have to read hard through the spin sometimes)). Not only did the printout not put them there, it didn't even leave a space for the id# to be entered.
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BOTH partys AND their candidates suck for air in this Presidential race!
Think about this a moment,would you have chosen to place either of these crooks/morons on your partys ticket if given the choice?
I seriously doubt it- time to start pushing for voting reform!
Disgusted with the whole mess at this point. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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I agree Jihad, that some of us had to hold our noses as we voted this year, but hey, I did the same with Dole/Clinton too (holding nose).
The only reform you'll see is new Florida laws so there is no more 'confusion', maybe a few more states may take a closer look at their laws too. A deadline is a deadline, but when you have another law trumping that deadline, then you need a new law. Unfortunatly the Dems wanted to change that law during the election process, thank God for the constitution.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 12-06-2000).]
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In watching the trial, it looks like the Rep,s were fudging more than braking the law.
Well, fudging is not acceptable in a Presidential election. As much as it pains me to say it. These vote should be thrown out, unless they can find a way to determine which votes were mishandled. Then only those should be thrown out.
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Though a minor point, considering the high road the Republicans took - as stated in the above thread - I don't think this looks good for Bush. I don't think it's a coincidence either that this is the last court case either, it plays into previous ones too well for the Democrats. Anyone know the judge's party, heard she had a beef with Clinton but looks like a democrat to me.
be a shame to have such a minor point sink the entire election after fighting so hard to win it.
Eagler
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One doesn't equal the other here, I think a lot of people are missing that. To prosecute the guy who filled in the applications is one thing, it's fairly likely and would be fairly easy to prove. To go beyond that and throw out all of the absentee ballots, they must:
Prove those people would not have voted if their ballot application would have been simply rejected
and...
Prove there was election fraud, not simply negligence. This would be something like preventing democrats the same access. In court today they failed on this count, after admitting the democrats never asked for access, because as their applications were pre-printed with the IDs they did not need it.
The question on the Judge's conflict (forget her name offhand), the alleged conflict is that Jeb Bush passed her up for promotion recently. She was asked to recuse herself but declined.
In other news some have asked if the shoe were on the other foot, would we not be sceaming to follow every legal option. Well, it is somewhat, with the FL legislature debating to (completely within its constitutional rights) send a group of republican electors regardless of the court outcomes. This, while legal, is not worth the political price. If it comes to that they best let Gore win, or I'm looking for new representation.
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Erhm, please explain to me Eagler.... Just *how* does she look like a democrat to you?
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Oh.... and Fatty is right here. The remedy being sought is just too high. If they knew *which* votes were affected, that may be one thing. But they don't. Ya can stop biting yer fingernails guys... this case wont amount to anything.
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Fatty you are starting to sound like a lawyer. On the one hand you say the wrongdoers should be punished. And at the same time saying nothing that wrong was done.
I couldn't care less what was legal. My concern is with what was right. Clearly the rules of the game were broken, when Rep.s filled in numbers they had no right to do. Whether this was, or was not offered to the Dem,s hardly matters. All they would have been offering to the Dem,s, was a chance to brake the rules also.
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Easymo, what exactly did the voters do wrong? They applied for ballots, those applications were granted and they recieved ballots, and they voted.
Had the applications been properly rejected, the republican party would have had a chance to resend properly prefilled applications, and/or the voters could have submitted forms downloaded from the web that actually had a place to write your voterID number. To reject those valid votes based on one person's error goes far beyond prosecuting the guilty party.
Edit note: If you're going to give those people a chance to apply again submitting the proper information, then allow them to vote absentee, a chance they would have had before, then you can toss out the original. I think all would agree that's not a very viable option.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 12-06-2000).]
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No one has claimed at any point the the voters have done anything wrong. There votes unfortunately have become fruit from the poison tree.
At the start of all of this. I saw the opinion expressed, that if the machine kicked out a lignite vote in Dade county. That was just bad luck. And that it happens in every election in the country. I agree with this.
This is exactly what has happened to these people. and the result should be the same. Mr. leach had no right under the election rules to fill in these app,s.
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This is not the same thing, this is a case where you have real, registered voters, who have cast real votes, and there is no question who they case those votes for.
The only contention is that their first applications should not have been accepted. The question of counting of those votes, of the legitimacy of those voters, of the validity of the vote total has not been questioned by either side.
What would be the same is if the republicans asked for all of miami-dade to be thrown out because of evidence that some felons illegally voted for Al Gore (there is that evidence, by the way). If they decided to pursue this, I would be outraged.
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Actually Fatty, it's my understanding that many many many more democratic voters were mistakenly taken off the approved voters list for being felons, than felons voted for Gore.
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The point being Nash that it's pretty commonly accepted that some convicted felons voted.
This isn't that big of a deal, it happens, and you try to do a better job next election of screening them. But you could concievably ask that since there is evidence of some, there are probably more that you do not find, and the only safe thing would be to throw out all of them.
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Sorry fatty but using unproven accusations to make your point ain't gonna get it.
I would be about as happy as you to hear this weasel has whined his way into the white house. But the only way to stop the Dem,s is to get into bed with them. That is something im not prepared to do.
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Easymo, that's not just something I made up. The estimated number of convicted felons that voted in the Miami area is just over a thousand, and accepted by all parties. I only bring it up because to ask that a million votes be thrown out because some of them are illegal is silly, yet probably has more legal validity than the Seminole County case.
You simply cannot throw out 15 thousand votes when the voters are legally registered, the vote count is not in question, and they have committed no wrong in casting those votes.
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btw Easymo, outside of this case I agree with you. I wish the Legislature would shut up and go home. I just don't see her ruling to throw out the ballots as a possibility, but should she actually do that I'd rather see Gore in office than the Legislature placing a Bush electorate anyway.
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Agreed, Fatty.
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Originally posted by Nash:
Erhm, please explain to me Eagler.... Just *how* does she look like a democrat to you?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Don't you watch CNN?
Eagler
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That makes no sense to me. Please explain how you think that this judge looks like a Democrat.
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I'll spell it out for you Nash, though I know you know what I mean... For the past 4 weeks, every African American woman CNN has had on, has been a Democrat. The majority of African American's are Democrats. Is it clearer now?
As for the judge, she seems pretty straight forward. I feel the evidence against the republicans could bite them in the arse no matter who the judge happens to be in this case. We will see.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Fatty:
btw Easymo, outside of this case I agree with you. I wish the Legislature would shut up and go home. I just don't see her ruling to throw out the ballots as a possibility, but should she actually do that I'd rather see Gore in office than the Legislature placing a Bush electorate anyway.
Won't happen. The Republicans will put Bush in power whatever it takes as they realize the selection of the Supreme Justices over the next four years is more important for the future of the country than any smear campaign gore and his friends can put together. I, for one, agree with the Florida Legislature if they try to force Bush in. It pales in comparison to the motivations of gore and his mentor, slick willie over the past eight years.
Eagler
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Yah, it's clear - thanks.
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Semi-decent explanation of the absentee ballot suits:
http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/06/seminole.martin.issues.pol/ (http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/06/seminole.martin.issues.pol/)
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my understanding is that it was a printing error which did not put the voter id # on the request for ballot in the first place. Mistake they made was not to fill in all the requests for ballots as the returns would favor Bush anyway. What I haven't heard is how many democrat ballot requests were not filled due to the missing voter id #. I would not think that # to be too high at all. They should of informed the democrats of the discrepancy also and gave them the chance to fill out the info also. I do not think they were denied the chance, the demos just were not informed of the error to act on it. Then the actual method they used to complete the form can be construed as flaky also. Giving them the reign of private offices to complete the forms was stupid, opening them up to exaggerated charges we are now hearing.. stupid, stupid mistakes....
Eagler
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The Demos are saying that the Repubs were given private access to the ballot applications so they should NOT be accepted but they failed to mention that ALL Demo applications were mailed to Demo HQ and THEN taken to proper offce.
They are saying because of a glitch in the application and the attempt to correct this glitch that all ballots should be ignored.
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Originally posted by Mighty1:
The Demos are saying that the Repubs were given private access to the ballot applications so they should NOT be accepted but they failed to mention that ALL Demo applications were mailed to Demo HQ and THEN taken to proper offce.
They are saying because of a glitch in the application and the attempt to correct this glitch that all ballots should be ignored.
hmm.... wonder what they did with'em at the Dem HQ before sending them to the right office.....