Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Big G on June 07, 2005, 10:13:42 AM
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guys,
Took a nikky up and got involved in some low and slow twists and turns on a spit 9.
I had my guns converged for 275? I waited and waited and got to 200-400 on a consistint basis and never even downed him ? At one point I was way under 200 and still nothing? I aimed for wings, engine etc and before I could ry again ( 4 good firing solutions beforehand) I was hit on my six by somebody else.
Do you have to fire from a longer distance on the nikkys ?
Cheers
Big G
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I run at 300 shoot at 400 on in. Cannon rounds fall off faster than
50's, chances are your missin low. Also in ma type " .target 275 "
and fly due north and a target pops up it shows where your hittin.
You can set it for other distance too. To turn it off type .target 0
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If you guys were turning pretty hard, it sounds like you just weren't leading the guy enough.
As Deth says above, those type 99 II rounds drop a lot faster than a lot of other rounds. While the 99II doesn't have the worst Muzzle Velocity in the game, it's certainly not the best.
I guess I would like to know what you usually fly, to get a good comparrison of the guns involved.
-Sik
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Something else to consider, if your guns are set to converge at 275.........
At 400 out, your shots have already converged and crossed each other, and you are trying to hit his left wingtips with your right cannons (and vise versa), but they have probably fallen off that far from convergence and are falling below him. By the same token, if he's at 200, your shots havent converged yet and your rounds could be passing right over his wings and to either side of his canopy without hitting. These arent MG bullets with nice flat trajectories. You need to be aiming AT the convergence point, firing when you reach it, and trying to stay right close to it. Leading a target with those 20mm they will drop hard. If your convergence is 275 you should probably be shooting at a distance of 175-225, depending on how many Gs you are pulling in the lead turn (which is why, unless I'm in a tyffie or tempest with 4xhispanos, or a spit, I prefer lag turns and wait for a level shot with cannon-armed planes).
Since target ranges between 400 and 200 dont show (and this is just my opinion), you are far better off setting your convergence at a point you can be fairly sure of (either 400 or 200) and know from your rate of closure how close you are, firing just before and after your range counter clicks down to convergence range (in other words, if you set at 400, and you see the range go from 800 to 600, when you think its about to change to 400 squeeze the trigger so you are already firing when it rolls down to that 400 mark).
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funny you guys should mention Hispanos, I hardly ever miss in them, I usually fly all the spits and was trying the nikky out.
I set the hispanos and 303's (or 50's in the 9) to around the 250 mark, I get to sub 400 and i'm usually good to go, there was some tight turns so no doubt i probably wasn't leading enough, I know, I know ! back to the drawing board for Big G........
Cheers Guys
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Originally posted by Big G
guys,
Took a nikky up and got involved in some low and slow twists and turns on a spit 9.
I had my guns converged for 275? I waited and waited and got to 200-400 on a consistint basis and never even downed him ? At one point I was way under 200 and still nothing? I aimed for wings, engine etc and before I could ry again ( 4 good firing solutions beforehand) I was hit on my six by somebody else.
Do you have to fire from a longer distance on the nikkys ?
Cheers
Big G
FPS?
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i never have my convergs that close...500+
who the hell has time in the MA to get that close?/
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It seems some planes cannon drop quicker than others. The niki seems to..as does the Ki61. If Im tolin around in the F4uC, then jump in a Niki..it takes a few tries before I find the right aim point again.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
It seems some planes cannon drop quicker than others. The niki seems to..as does the Ki61. If Im tolin around in the F4uC, then jump in a Niki..it takes a few tries before I find the right aim point again.
I'm no expert by a long shot, but I believe that in game it is all (or mostly) about the weight of the round and the muzzle velocity. The Hispanos are the longest of the 20MM rounds in game. They are heavier than any other 20mm, and come out with the fastest MV of any 20mm round. As far as I can tell, this is what causes people to get such varying results.
To compare the 2 guns that Big G is dealing with, really shows the differences:
Hispano: Rate of Fire: 10 RPS Projectile Weight: 130 gms Muzzle Velocity: 860 MPS
Type 99II: Rate of Fire:8 RPS Projectile Weight: 128 gms Muzzle Velocity: 750 MPS
So in a N1K2 v. F4U-1C comparrison, the Chog will fire heavier rounds at a higher velocity, and more of them per second.
The N1K2 cannons are deadly, but if you are used to using the Hispano, or .50 cals, then you are going to have to "unlearn" how much lead you need to give people.
-Sik
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I have been flying the Nik latley I was flying the FM2. The unlearning of the lead was a problem for a bit. I have also found you need to account for your movement (turns) more with the Nik than you do for the .50s
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IJN/A cannons take some getting used to. They are probably some of the worst cannons ballistically in the game. They have good hitting power but require greater lead the more G's you are pulling. I set mine out to 325 as I find I get the best ranging with that setting. I can hit out as far as 400 with the right angle.
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I should mention that all of the data from my post is from Anthony Williams' website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
One of the coolest resources on the web if you ask me. It kind of explains a few things about the behavior of AH guns.
-Sik
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I set the convergence on the N1K 20MM at 400. I have hit as far as 800. Now, I haven't downed the plane at 800 but I got him to turn which gave me time to close to 600 or less and get some lethal hits on the AC.
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Niki's are crap as crap. I hate them. I hate this thread. The only good nik is one on fire and smashing into the ground.
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/cheer Morpheus!
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heh... wait till HTC remodels the N1K2-J and its FM to AH2 standards... the automatic flaps (whcih the N1K2-J had in real life) in N1K2-J are droped depending on the plane's AoA. This will make life harder for spitties and F6Fs...:D
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nah. its still jap, still made of paper, and still garbage.
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Originally posted by 1K3
heh... wait till HTC remodels the N1K2-J and its FM to AH2 standards... the automatic flaps (whcih the N1K2-J had in real life) in N1K2-J are droped depending on the plane's AoA. This will make life harder for spitties and F6Fs...:D
NO flaps should auto-extend UNLESS ALL flaps that already auto-retract are changed not too. There are enough crutches in the game as it is, we don't need more of the good fetures with less and less of the bad features.
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Is it really so hard to hit the flaps out button that you need auto extending flaps?
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Originally posted by pellik
Is it really so hard to hit the flaps out button that you need auto extending flaps?
HT thinks so, why else would we have the auto-retracting flaps?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Midnight
NO flaps should auto-extend UNLESS ALL flaps that already auto-retract are changed not too. There are enough crutches in the game as it is, we don't need more of the good fetures with less and less of the bad features.
So modeling the real behavior of the N1K2-J's flaps is bad?
Mmmkay. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Karnak
So modeling the real behavior of the N1K2-J's flaps is bad?
Mmmkay. :rolleyes:
Since modeling the realistic behavior of flaps for any plane has been tossed out in favor of the coddling auto-retracting flaps, why should the N1K2 be any different?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Since modeling the realistic behavior of flaps for any plane has been tossed out in favor of the coddling auto-retracting flaps, why should the N1K2 be any different?
ack-ack
Because we aren't talking about the auto-retracting flaps that you P-38 fanatics whine endlessly about even though they have zero negative effects on your precious P-38s.
Universal autoretract to be friendly to new players != auto deployed flaps unique to the N1K series.
One is a gameplay consession inflicted on all aircraft in AH and the other is a modeling issue.
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Since modeling the realistic behavior of flaps for any plane has been tossed out in favor of the coddling auto-retracting flaps, why should the N1K2 be any different?
Simple!
Because modelling automatic extension is different from automatic retraction.
This one doesn't go over the limits set by the game - limits which are set, for a good reason.
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THe real N1K2-J AUTO EXTEND its flaps (again... depending on YOUR AoA, btw it uses some mercury device that can tell when to AUTO EXTEND)... NOT AUTO-RETRACT!
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Originally posted by GreenCloud
i never have my convergs that close...500+
who the hell has time in the MA to get that close?/
omg :rofl
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Originally posted by Big G
guys,
Took a nikky up and got involved in some low and slow twists and turns on a spit 9.
I had my guns converged for 275? I waited and waited and got to 200-400 on a consistint basis and never even downed him ? At one point I was way under 200 and still nothing? I aimed for wings, engine etc and before I could ry again ( 4 good firing solutions beforehand) I was hit on my six by somebody else.
Do you have to fire from a longer distance on the nikkys ?
Cheers
Big G
Freind, the true secret is 325. And it's a hard lead shot 400 or less in a turn. By that I mean bottom or off sight (under nose).
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As for the convergence issues, if this can be of any help, the Japanese N1K pilots use full 650yds for inboard cannons, and about 300 for outboard cannons.
They use two cannons at a time. The inboard cannons for long range sniping, and outboard cannons for close range snapshots. When the distance is inside 200yds, they use all for cannons.
I'm not sure if they changed their doctrine, since after AH2 and its different gunnery, they seem to be having lower success rates in long range gunnery as a whole. They might have given up long convergence ranges entirely.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Niki's are crap as crap. I hate them. I hate this thread. The only good nik is one on fire and smashing into the ground.
A picture is worth a thousand words :)
The N1K burns
Dan/CorkyJr
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1118286382_deadniki.jpg)
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i usually dump 400 rnds of cannons (empty all 2nd fire option) and i found that the N1K2-J seem to performs better and shots are far more accurate
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Originally posted by Karnak
Universal autoretract to be friendly to new players != auto deployed flaps unique to the N1K series.
One is a gameplay consession inflicted on all aircraft in AH and the other is a modeling issue.
Sure, auto-extending flaps is unique to the N1K, then how about the "helper" features that would be uniquie to other planes?
P-51D had a K-14 active gunsite. We don't have that. It would be realistic to have it though.
IMO we should not have the EXTRA helper features some planes had if we also don't add the negative features with them.
getting off topic, but One thing I would really like to see is the REMOVAL of automatic engine management. Let's remove automatic cowl-flap and intercooler settings and see how well pilots handle their planes at all the different altitudes that we fly at....
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I second that, Midnight!
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getting off topic, but One thing I would really like to see is the REMOVAL of automatic engine management. Let's remove automatic cowl-flap and intercooler settings and see how well pilots handle their planes at all the different altitudes that we fly at....
Make it and option so you can turn it on and knock yourself out managing all that crap.
I am here for fun and fights ... not immersive engine management.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Make it and option so you can turn it on and knock yourself out managing all that crap.
I am here for fun and fights ... not immersive engine management. [/B]
Then, why not getting an aimbot, so we can get rid of all this aiming cr*p? After all, we are all here to have fun and fight, not immersive gun aiming... ;)
IMHO an airplane is a weapon as a whole. Good management of all its systems means more dangerous opponents. Bad engine management means less dangerous opponents.
I fail to understand why only gas has to be managed.
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Originally posted by Pepe
Then, why not getting an aimbot, so we can get rid of all this aiming cr*p? After all, we are all here to have fun and fight, not immersive gun aiming... ;)
IMHO an airplane is a weapon as a whole. Good management of all its systems means more dangerous opponents. Bad engine management means less dangerous opponents.
I fail to understand why only gas has to be managed.
Your absolutly right ... BUT ... HTC would drive away subscribers in numbers that they don't want to see.
If engine management is wanted, they you have to get the whole ball of wax or forget it. That means startup procedures, run-ups at the end of the runway ... etc ... get my drift.
I think I would be safe in saying that the vast majority of subscribers DO NOT want this type of management and if implemented, alot would leave.
If it was implemented as an option and you want to sit at the end of the runway doing a run-up while the endless coveyor belt of 109s and 190s vulch the crap out of ya ... knock yourself out.
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lol you guys are such tools. really you are. you ask for realism but when it hits you, you're going to ***** and moan about it.
Midnight, why not make it so we have to taxi out, sit on the runway, hold short and wait for clearance? Not before you warm up the engine, do the run up. That in itself it a good 15-20 minutes. Oh yeah and I didnt mention preflights. Another 10-15 minutes there. (if you're quick about it)
So now you just spent almsot 40 minutes just getting your plane in the air.
Hell, 40 minutes is all I've got some nights. Do you really think I want to spend my free time waiting for my 38 to warm up and be checked out, just so I can take off?
Do you honestly think that Hitech would see that crap as a good business move? ontroling throtle, fuel mixure, making sure you dont over rev the engine... There would be newbs falling out of the sky left and right because they didnt have a clue how any of it worked. And after they drop out of the sky they're going to drop their subscription.
Save that crap for real life aviation. You can never forget that this is a game, and its here to simulate dog fighting as Hitech himself said. Its not here to teach us how to fly, how to manage an air plane as they did back then or now.
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Morpheus
I'm not asking that we get all that stuff. I don't want it all and I doubt that we would be able to even control it all effectively from a keyboard. The graphics can only display so much information and there are too many gauges that would need to be drawn, etc.
My comment about cowling flaps and such goes back to another thread about engine management that would allow newbies to fly their planes with no ill effects, but would require some manual adjustments to get peak performance depending on conditions. I think it would introduce a little more variability into some fights, because, depending on pilot skill, his plane may or not be as fast as it could be. It was a long thread, but I don't want to get into all the details of it here.
My point is that the N1K shouldn't get any automatic flaps that would make it even easier for newbies to fly that UFO all over the place.
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Originally posted by Midnight
My point is that the N1K shouldn't get any automatic flaps that would make it even easier for newbies to fly that UFO all over the place.
Why not? The real one had them.
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I can't see how anyone would want to fly the Nik. But then again, I also often fly the SpitV. Like Leviathn said, its all about whats fun to you. And I can understand that.
I just dont see what thrills are to be had from flying a 4x20mm lazer equiped jap hellicopter.
If i had a choice to fly a spit1 or a Nik, and nothing else, it'd be a spit1.
I hate japanese planes with a passion. Not because they're tough to kill because they aren't at all. American men, american planes... American Iron. I should say Allie. But you get the idea.
I love nothing more than to see a Nik, zeek or Ki84 stuggling, on fire, blowing up, half a wing, being picked apart. It gives me a warm feeling... Butterflies maybe. They're crap. They all deserve to pay. And they're only good when they're going up in flames.
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Think about the N1K2 remodeled with auto-flaps. Pilots would no longer be able to make sharp turns WITHOUT the flaps deploying. Hello, E-bleed. The plane would probably show less of those "UFO" characteristics.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I love nothing more than to see a Nik, zeek or Ki84 stuggling, on fire, blowing up, half a wing, being picked apart. It gives me a warm feeling... Butterflies maybe. They're crap. They all deserve to pay. And they're only good when they're going up in flames.
So Morph, did you ejaculate when you were done typing that?
-Sik
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Guys, you do realize that you gain NOTHING from removing the automatic flap retrieval?
AT THE SPEEDS THE FLAPS RETRACT, THEY WOULD BREAK IF STILL OUT.
You're not going to be able to fly longer, or hold a turn a little faster...
You're just going to break the flaps once you hit that speed.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
So Morph, did you ejaculate when you were done typing that?
-Sik
I have screen shots printed out. They are of burning Niks.
I will leave the rest up to your imagination. :)
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Originally posted by Midnight
My point is that the N1K shouldn't get any automatic flaps that would make it even easier for newbies to fly that UFO all over the place.
the real N1K2-Js... all of them had em...
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I have screen shots printed out. They are of burning Niks.
I will leave the rest up to your imagination. :)
It's the ones that are stuck together that frighten me :p
-Sik
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I hate japanese planes with a passion. Not because they're tough to kill because they aren't at all. American men, american planes... American Iron. I should say Allie. But you get the idea.
:eek:
This is incomprehensible to me. I truely do not understand how somebody who is decades removed from the war could think this way.
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Originally posted by Karnak
:eek:
This is incomprehensible to me. I truely do not understand how somebody who is decades removed from the war could think this way.
I don't know that it's incomprehensible. My heros from the time I was a little kid were Allied fighter and bomber pilots.
I fly Allied iron, 38s and Spits for the most part. I don't hate LW or Japanese stuff, they just don't interest me as much.
I'll fly Emil's on occasion as that's the LW bird whose history interests me the most, but overall it's Allied iron for me also.
There are certainly enough LW fanatics out there that won't fly anything but the birds they're interested in as well.
Hate is probably too strong a word though :)
Dan/CorkyJr
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Originally posted by Karnak
Why not? The real one had them.
Apparently you missed my posts from above. Please go back and read those for my point.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I fly Allied iron, 38s and Spits for the most part. I don't hate LW or Japanese stuff, they just don't interest me as much
I understand that perfectly. I don't understand actual hate. Complete indifference is understandable.
Midnight,
You mean the whiny P-38 fanatic's blather?
I dismissed it as the complete fabrication and persecution complex BS it is.
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I think we have met the bridge of the aided pilot in AH at this point.
Mustang pilots have never had an automatic K-14, and N1K pilots don't have auto-deploying flaps.
Do the 109's have auto deploying slats?
Regardless, we have reached the slippery slope of what is too much of an aid to a player in the game. I believe we have to be very careful here about what comes into the game and what stays out.
It seems to me that an auto-deploying flap system on an already tight turning a/c such as the N1K would change the balance of the fight quite unnaturally.
The only REAL answer to all of this is to say that if one plane has 'em, the rest of the planes have to have their historical benifits. Therefore, -51's and -47's would have auto-computing gunsites and make short work of the new flappy wonder anyway :D
I guess all I'm saying is be careful what you ask for- you just might get it.
My gut tells me HTC will release it with auto-deploying flaps, and it's all you'll ever see in the furballs. HTC will then see what an unbalanced machine it is (like the CHog), and assign it a perk value of like 10 or something. Nothing major, but a lot of guys wouldn't want to take up a fragile plane like that on 10 points.
My $.02
-reb
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Completely unnecessary. I fly the Nik a lot and I almost never get slow enough to deploy the flaps. Maybe at the top of a loop or steep pitch back but I retract them as soon as the nose starts down. I don't T-N-B low and slow with Spits and Zekes, I take them into the vertical where the Nik2 shines. (Unless I'm already dead :lol )
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I really wouldn't mind if some planes had the k-14 or not. IIRC you need to track the con for 2-3 secs before it will apply the correct lead. It will only be useful for the inexperienced IMO which is why i wouldn't mind at all.
Likewise I have no problem with the n1ks flaps being modelled accurately. It is a different matter all together to the flap autorectract/limits/damage argumuments.
I personally don't have an issue with the auto-retract feature. I've put my mossie into stalls/spins the p38 pilots only have nightmares about.:D
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Originally posted by Pepe
Then, why not getting an aimbot, so we can get rid of all this aiming cr*p? After all, we are all here to have fun and fight, not immersive gun aiming... ;)
Man I could really use one of those. Ask that 190 that was LHAO at me last night after I emptied the full Spit ammo on him from d200 to d400. :lol
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Originally posted by Karnak
:eek:
This is incomprehensible to me. I truely do not understand how somebody who is decades removed from the war could think this way.
Well I guess that's where you and I are different.
I love US planes. Planes like the P51 or the P47 or the Corsair, seeing one in real life, imagining what it was like to have faught in one. I just dont get that same feeling about Axis planes. Sure they are great. Very cool indeed.
The P51's are just sexier. As are the 38's, corsairs, and P47s hell even the P40... than any of the other axis fighters. My opinion ofcourse. I can't leave out the Tempest or any of the spits. ;)
I just feel cheap flying a Nik or a zeek or a Ki.
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Morpheus,
I definatley understand having aircraft that you like and those that are uninvolving to you. We all have our lists and why the things on them are there can and is for a myriad of reasons.
However I don't understand hating the other stuff or believing that it should only be in flames and breaking up.
Aircraft I like:
Spitfire, Mosquito, P-38, Fw190, A6M, Ki-84, Il-2.
But there are no aircraft that I really hate, not even the La-7. :p
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Originally posted by Morpheus
I just feel cheap flying a Nik or a zeek or a Ki.
:mad: Hey. Those KIs cost me a ton of money man. They are not cheap!
Well, I have to ask. Why do you feel cheap in a NIKI? Other than ammo load it has nothing to say against a Spit, I think.
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A Honda civic is cheap.
An original Ford Thunderbolt with a 427 side oiler is sexy.
Get it?
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Originally posted by Morpheus
A Honda civic is cheap.
An original Ford Thunderbolt with a 427 side oiler is sexy.
Get it?
I got reaped off on that KI?
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on the auto flaps thing....
i scare myself for saying thie, because anything to "help" the n1k2 is bad for AH in my opinion LOL
but they seem to me like leading edge slats, which auto deploy, and supposedly help. if the plane had that particular air frame feature and functionality it should be in game
im NOT talking about gunsights or whatever, because then you have to demand the glide bomb sight for the 234, and rear gunner periscope, among TONS of other things.
oh well thats my thought on the situation