Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Shuckins on June 07, 2005, 12:09:37 PM
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Thought it might be fun, and helpful, to exchange notes on what works for you and what doesn't.
Might also be helpful to those who don't know a lot about ACM.
Personally, while I sometimes fall prey to an insidious desire to dive into a furball with my hair on fire, I'm just not that good at it.
When I do that, I die. A LOT!
Currently, I'm trying to learn energy tactics. Taking a leaf from Hartmann, my basic style involves:
1. Have at least 15k of alt
2. Never fly at less than 250mph
3. See and assess
4. Select a single enemy
5. Dive on his 6, getting slightly below him
6. Make a firing pass, opening fire at 200
7. Blow through...extend for at least 5k...climb back up to my perch.
8. Reasses the situation and/or look for another target.
Things to not do:
1. Get involved in low-level furball
2. Follow a slower moving target for more than 45 degrees
3. Feel bad about taking a split-ess and fleeing from higher cons
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you will get a good kill to death ratio but you will learn nothing from flying like this
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Fly the way you want and ignore everyone else - especially the AH T&B mafia who can't fly anything but Spits and whine when you don't play the game their way.
Also this ain't flying - it's a video game with cartoon planes.
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6000 tops, if it's a single high I usually fall asleep. Once in a while he knows what he's doing and fights. Good E fighting is a lost art, no one breaks out the rubber band any more. If it's a couple I usually nod off also. Tag teaming is done by but a few.
If theres one low, he runs. I've found you need two or three low so they stay around.
I usually find a fight, I usually die. But fighting is what I enjoy.
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these people in 109, p51, and 190's are annoying. all they do is run. its beginning to get on my nerves. When i find someone willing to stay and fight (mind you I usually lose) its a joy.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
1. Have at least 15k of alt
2. Never fly at less than 250mph
3. See and assess
4. Select a single enemy
5. Dive on his 6, getting slightly below him
6. Make a firing pass, opening fire at 200
7. Blow through...extend for at least 5k...climb back up to my perch.
8. Reasses the situation and/or look for another target.
Things to not do:
1. Get involved in low-level furball
2. Follow a slower moving target for more than 45 degrees
3. Feel bad about taking a split-ess and fleeing from higher cons
Some comments:
1. 15K is way to high to engage the majority of targets you will find in the MA. 8 to 10K is a good all around working altitude.
2. 300 mph is a much better minimum speed for your style of fighting. Of course you will go under 250 on the climb out.
5. Get a bunch below him. Many planes have a pretty good low six view. You want to be low enough so that when he gets a check six call, he will look back and not see you.
6. I start shooting at about 300-350. You can judge your distance by you closure rate. If it takes 4 seconds to go from 600 to 400, then wait 2 seconds after the range changes to 400 before opening fire.
7. Start climbing immediately after disengaging. You want to re-establish alt as soon as. This will discourage La La's from running you down. They see that you are getting alt and leaving them they will break off. La Las suck above 8k, as they lose any gain from WEP. If you run, they will run with you, and given their acceleration and speed, they will soon be co-e with you at low alt. They will force you to take evasives, lose speed, and the Spittie following them will chew you to pieces (Spitties live for those kind of kills)
As for running from higher cons, if they aren't much higher, take them on. Most will run from any kind of aggression on your part.
Some additional suggestions:
Turn off tracers, you don't need them, and they give you and extra edge in surprise.
Use a plane with lots of cannons, like the 190A8 or the Typhie. Or if you really need to run, a Dora, a G10, or a PonyD. Of those the 109G10 compresses to easy for my liking, and the PonyD only has 50 cals. The Dora's guns are hard to hit anything with for some reason.
For all around fighting the PonyD has it all. Speed, maneuverability, excellent views, good acceleration, lots of fuel, can take a fair amount of ordinance.
Learn to read a book as you fly, it will help with boredom.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
6. Make a firing pass, opening fire at 200
7. Blow through...extend for at least 5k...climb back up to my perch.
8. Reasses the situation and/or look for another target.
Extending as far as you do only allows the enemy pilot regain any E that he lost while evading your high speed pass. Basically, the fight becomes a stalemate and you're forced to run to look for far easier targets.
Don't be afraid to press your BnZ attacks. The object is to make the enemy burn his E that it sets up an angle for you to shoot at. You can't do that if you extend 5k and allow him to regain his E and some altitude.
ack-ack
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I hope I do not fight you as it sounds very boring...
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Some comments:
1. 15K is way to high to engage the majority of targets you will find in the MA. 8 to 10K is a good all around working altitude.
I used to agree with this, but lately I've been finding if I stop at 10k I'm running into lots of guys above me. So I started going to 12k. Now its 15k. Just to be coalt. I think it comes and goes.
2. 300 mph is a much better minimum speed for your style of fighting. Of course you will go under 250 on the climb out.
Agreed. If you want to play BnZ with multiple targets and survive, stay 300 and above. At 250 warning bells should be ringing.
5. Get a bunch below him. Many planes have a pretty good low six view. You want to be low enough so that when he gets a check six call, he will look back and not see you.
I have to disagree here. Most planes I've found have a HORRIBLE 6 view, even rolling. A mild barrel roll is required in most planes to truly be sure of a clear 6. Go too far below and you blow your egress speed on the climb back to target. If he's going to miss seeing you, he's missed you whether you are way lower or not.
6. I start shooting at about 300-350. You can judge your distance by you closure rate. If it takes 4 seconds to go from 600 to 400, then wait 2 seconds after the range changes to 400 before opening fire.
Agreed. I have my convergence set at 200, I start when I feel he's around 300 (maybe 250 if my rate of closure isnt as fast). I want to be firing already when I hit convergence. One burst to make sure I'm on target, then hold it down until I'm past.
7. Start climbing immediately after disengaging. You want to re-establish alt as soon as. This will discourage La La's from running you down. They see that you are getting alt and leaving them they will break off. La Las suck above 8k, as they lose any gain from WEP. If you run, they will run with you, and given their acceleration and speed, they will soon be co-e with you at low alt. They will force you to take evasives, lose speed, and the Spittie following them will chew you to pieces (Spitties live for those kind of kills)
As for running from higher cons, if they aren't much higher, take them on. Most will run from any kind of aggression on your part.
Absolutely. Although I wouldnt be so confident about the lala's performance above 8k. You never know if its a newb or a shark in that lala, and taking it for granted just because you have alt is a dangerous mistake.
Some additional suggestions:
Turn off tracers, you don't need them, and they give you and extra edge in surprise.
Use a plane with lots of cannons, like the 190A8 or the Typhie. Or if you really need to run, a Dora, a G10, or a PonyD. Of those the 109G10 compresses to easy for my liking, and the PonyD only has 50 cals. The Dora's guns are hard to hit anything with for some reason.
For all around fighting the PonyD has it all. Speed, maneuverability, excellent views, good acceleration, lots of fuel, can take a fair amount of ordinance.
Learn to read a book as you fly, it will help with boredom.
Nonsense on the cannons. Unless you are going to fly a Tyffie or Tempest all the time, or a CHog. I use the F4U-1 and -1D in exactly the same manner (at least when entering the fight initially), and if you are shooting using convergence as your guide then .50s are just as deadly as any cannon, and you can be more free with the ammo. I choose the F4U for the same reasons you laid out for the Pony, and I'd take a Hog over a Pony any day if it gets down and dirty.
Of course, there are guys who would say the same thing about the Jug.
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1st...
Alt is relative....you need about 2k advantage...more than that is often less....since excess speed kills as well. There is a big difference between "E" fighting & B&Z....
2nd....
Speed differential is more important than your actual speed....
3rd....
"see and assess" is mumblespeak...in air combat you are either proactive or reactive. Your goal is to use your superior tactical position to force the action...
4th...
You have as many enemies as are around...you do however select a single "target" at a time...retaining your focus on that one plane exclusively results in tunnel vision.
5th...
You can't have a single plan like that...for example I'll often come in from the 4 or 8 position...less checked then the 6 many times. you also cant assume suprise. True "cherries" are few and far between....
6th....
You shoot if you have a shot...again you "read & react"...if the con goes in to a nose low tightening turn..your alt & excess speed just set you up for the dreaded "drex shot you down" or such message. fly right and the shot happens...chase the shot and die....
7th....
Just flat out wrong, you never ever "blow thru" if your E fighting. E fighting is the death of a thousand cuts. A good E fighter never extends more than 2.5 out once he engages. Always above never below & never giving you time to reaccess or retrim or regain your SA...just always there forcing your hand, taking your E until your a low slow wallowing piece of barely moving metal to busy fighting gravity to avoid the kill shot....
8th....
done correctly, you have nothing to assess.....
E fighters are relentless merciless stone cold killers who leave no doubt that they smacked the snot out of you....dont confuse them with the either the C@ndyoscar shoot & scoot bozo's or the switchblade toting hide in the weeds assassins like my friend foder.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Don't be afraid to press your BnZ attacks. The object is to make the enemy burn his E that it sets up an angle for you to shoot at.
ack-ack
Originally posted by humble
E fighting is the death of a thousand cuts. A good E fighter never extends more than 2.5 out once he engages. Always above never below & never giving you time to reaccess or retrim or regain your SA...just always there forcing your hand, taking your E until your a low slow wallowing piece of barely moving metal to busy fighting gravity to avoid the kill shot....
humble
That's the rubber band. Sometimes it goes out a ways, sometimes it snaps right back. But never far enough out for you to regain what you've lost.
Low in a spitty that's a fight. Low in a spitty with a bore and zoomer above is a sleeping pill :D
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Hartmann's tactics can be boring.
Marseille's tactics is fun.
for the ones that are starting out learning BnZ, try Hartmann's way.
for the ones that want to go a little more advanced in BnZ, try Marseille's way.
from what I have been reading, Marseille was by far more deadly than Hartmann was.
Hans-Joachim Marseille : The Star of Africa.
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Thanks for the input guys. :)
As I said, I'm experimenting with the bnz style...and need to refine it.
I fly the F6F almost exclusively, and find that it is a perfectly adequate bnz aircraft which has the ability to maneuver if the situation requires it.
The 50 cals are devastating at a firing range of 200, and seldom require excessive time on target.
When making a pass, I tend to keep my control movements as gentle as possible in order to conserve energy. If the target pulls into a high g turn, I will go sometimes go into a low g vertical turn, trying to stay about 1k to1.5k above him near his 5 or 7 o'clock positions. This allows me to keep him in sight and easily correct for his evasive actions. I them make short dives for his tail, causing him to take more high g evasives, bleeding his energy.
Ack-Ack, I'll keep your instructions in mind about extending too far before going vertical.
Appreciate any further suggestions you can make.
Regards, Shuckins
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Originally posted by DieAz
Hartmann's tactics can be boring.
Marseille's tactics is fun.
for the ones that are starting out learning BnZ, try Hartmann's way.
for the ones that want to go a little more advanced in BnZ, try Marseille's way.
from what I have been reading, Marseille was by far more deadly than Hartmann was.
Hans-Joachim Marseille : The Star of Africa.
I couldnt have said it better. :)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Ack-Ack, I'll keep your instructions in mind about extending too far before going vertical.
Appreciate any further suggestions you can make.
Regards, Shuckins
Search the Intertardnet for BulletHead's wonderful lectures on E management and BnZ fighting. Probably the best write up on the subject for us arm chair aces. Rocketman's lectures as well as Worr's are first rate and those I'm sure can be found on NetAces.org.
ack-ack
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Worr..now there's a blast from the past.
The ultimate E fighter with dead on gunnery. It rarely took more than the second pass.
Jeez I hated that guy ;)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Thanks for the input guys. :)
As I said, I'm experimenting with the bnz style...and need to refine it.
I fly the F6F almost exclusively, and find that it is a perfectly adequate bnz aircraft which has the ability to maneuver if the situation requires it.
The 50 cals are devastating at a firing range of 200, and seldom require excessive time on target.
When making a pass, I tend to keep my control movements as gentle as possible in order to conserve energy. If the target pulls into a high g turn, I will go sometimes go into a low g vertical turn, trying to stay about 1k to1.5k above him near his 5 or 7 o'clock positions. This allows me to keep him in sight and easily correct for his evasive actions. I them make short dives for his tail, causing him to take more high g evasives, bleeding his energy.
Ack-Ack, I'll keep your instructions in mind about extending too far before going vertical.
Appreciate any further suggestions you can make.
Regards, Shuckins
One of the good things about the hellcat is that it can slow down quite quickly when you want it to (rudder and flaps) . So drop in on them sometimes instead of zooming back up, you should be able to stay with them for a few turns (enough to make a shot) Do it just when they start to yawn , thinking that you are a boring bnzzzzer, and you might catch them napping.
Also , as others have mentioned - keep those little vertical extensions as short as you are game to make them, keep working them shorter and shorter - experiment , Depending on e-states etc , I usually use the change to 1k icon as the reversal cue , you can try just hovering over them in a little circle for a second to make sure they don't have enough E to climb up to you, before you head back down. If you are lucky they might even try to keep flying up to you while you do the little circle :)
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Originally posted by nopoop
Worr..now there's a blast from the past.
The ultimate E fighter with dead on gunnery. It rarely took more than the second pass.
Jeez I hated that guy ;)
Good guy Worr, and very dangerous.
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I concur with nopoops no rubberbands left out there anymore ( well very few )
concur with Ack-Ack's, humble's, nopoop's ideas.
Learning to do "Pure E-Fighting" takes time( sometimes many many years of practice) and their are very few in these Flight Sims that come close to mastering it ( can you paint a perfect picture? )
yes this is just a video game, but it is a video game where you virtualy fly WWII Fighter Planes!
"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor
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On those rare occasions you run into one....you come away sliced diced and frapped....but somehow it's ok. Nothing like watch a "true master" at work....even if your on the wrong end of the gunsight:)
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The road to E fighting takes many high yoyos. Forget pass and extend, just do high yoyos until you get the perfect shot. There arn't many people who have the skill to exploit lag persuit tactics anyway.
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Originally posted by humble
On those rare occasions you run into one....you come away sliced diced and frapped....but somehow it's ok. Nothing like watch a "true master" at work....even if your on the wrong end of the gunsight:)
Some of the wisest words ever typed:)
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I like to believe my tactics are a bit different from most. They are
1. Up from a base climb to most any altitude
2. Fly to enemy base get within sight
3. See multiple red dots.
4. Fly toward said dots with good intent.
5. Get blown up fast.
6. Repeat with gusto.
:D
Peace
Pillur
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Old school Turn and Burner here. I'm currently working the Corsair, which can get the job done once you understand its envelope. (It ain't a spitfire!)
I like to use a lot of out-of-plane maneuvering. I spend 90% of my time with some kind of vertical component during a dogfight.
Diving from altitude is a useful tactic for any pilot, whether BnZ, TnB or "other." Engaging with superior E is always useful. However, once on six, I like to stay there, which involve throttling back and giving up all that stored E to finish the engagement.
My biggest weakness is defensive BFM. Barrel rolls don't work well in AH and I always think in terms of gaining altitude instead of extending, which gets me killed far too often. This is the one disadvantage of TnB: once your commited, you are stuck in the fight until you either win or lose. There is very little opportunity for escape.
The best tactic, however, for any pilot of any style, is gang banging. working with fellow pilots to get the kill on a target beats any other tactic or style hands down.
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1. Not getting mad when you die helps. It's not often i get mad on ch200 about dying, tho i am partial to some ch200 action if someone is being overly timid.
2. I find playing with music on in the background helps too- perhaps it prevents me from over concentrating.
3. Up a mossie and have some fun mixing it up.
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Originally posted by SixWhiskey
Old school Turn and Burner here. I'm currently working the Corsair, which can get the job done once you understand its envelope. (It ain't a spitfire!)
I like to use a lot of out-of-plane maneuvering. I spend 90% of my time with some kind of vertical component during a dogfight.
Diving from altitude is a useful tactic for any pilot, whether BnZ, TnB or "other." Engaging with superior E is always useful. However, once on six, I like to stay there, which involve throttling back and giving up all that stored E to finish the engagement.
My biggest weakness is defensive BFM. Barrel rolls don't work well in AH and I always think in terms of gaining altitude instead of extending, which gets me killed far too often. This is the one disadvantage of TnB: once your commited, you are stuck in the fight until you either win or lose. There is very little opportunity for escape.
The best tactic, however, for any pilot of any style, is gang banging. working with fellow pilots to get the kill on a target beats any other tactic or style hands down.
A couple of things that work in your favor in a hog...I tend to fight two or three fights...I'll T&B high...then mid level...then if I have to on the deck. With the flaps you can suck the guy in...then pop the wheels and force overshoots almost at will...if you dont connect you can clean up and dive for E and rinse and repeat...often by round three the guy is timid enough you can run out of dodge if you need to...
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I concur with Pillur...
Gusto is a must. :)
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Currently, I'm trying to learn energy tactics. Taking a leaf from Hartmann, my basic style involves:
if I might interject to try and help....
1. Have at least 15k of alt.
suggest climb to alt you plan to come overhead the enemy with
2. Never fly at less than 250mph
reason for the climb to planned alt immediately is you can go level and allow the plane to accelerate to is cruise speed. You will find even a spit 9 will cruise at 290 mph without effort. The means a lil nose low from cruise gives you lotsa of high speed options.
3. See and assess
strictly SA related. How many, how hi, where the conveyored belt dumps more into the fray, which way is home.
4. Select a single enemy
whomever you choose, if you can remain undetected, thats nice :)
5. Dive on his 6, getting slightly below him
an esse turn may be required if you in on the some guy turning. esse turns allow you to time you pass so you actualyl make it on his 6.
6. Make a firing pass, opening fire at 200
speed is relative. closure that is too high may not give you time enoough on target to make him blow. Hi speed means you may want to open up at 300.
7. Blow through...extend for at least 5k...climb back up to my perch.
again speed is relative. you can turn up to an easy 40 degrees with the guy then go for the extend. in fact, if he doesnt break on your pass you should have shot him so plan your aiming pass wisely :)
8. Reasses the situation and/or look for another target.
just a thought a true dogfight uses both bnz and turn-n-burn tactics which will change as a fight progresses. It does not have to be just one of the other. It's a matter of how fluidly you can transition from one aspect of the fight into another and your ability to recognize the change as it happens.
Things to not do:
1. Get involved in low-level furball.
why not? as long as you follow the above SA rules and use esse turns to time the pass then exit toward home...
2. Follow a slower moving target for more than 45 degrees
in general you are correct but you miss alot of easy kills. you may be able to turn with some guy and kill him yet still exit. Circumstances are as individual as the guy/plane you get in on
3. Feel bad about taking a split-ess and fleeing from higher cons
nope never feel bad if you decide the situation is untennable. Just go do it. However, just because there is some guy diving in on you doesn't mean you have to run from it. If you learn how to take that position and turn it aggressively back into him then you may take the advantage away from him. Why do you think all of the old sayings/dicta regarding dogfighting, all the way back to WW1 say, "turn and face the oncoming enemy"?
Hope this helps....
Ren
The Damned
Aces High II Training Corps
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I just wait till da wittle red pwane gets weeeeally cwose then i pull muh joystick all the way ot muh belly and try to wun to muh ack.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
1. Have at least 15k of alt.......................... .
First off Id suggest placing less emphasis on a seperate target alt and speed, and more on your total E state.
Example: If you are cruising along at 15k and I am several thousand feet lower, but can zoom up to you and stay with you, we are co-E. The difference is you are telegraphing your E state, and I am masking mine.
Now lets switch roles. Im the high plane, you are the low fast one. I observe and suspect that I am co-E or less. I may zoom up to as slow a speed as I feel necessary in a fasion reminicent of a cobra rearing up threatenlingly. Now instead of masking my E state I am exagerating it. It's a bluff...just like poker, human nature still applies.
"select a single enemy" Well that's ok I guess. When I see that quote, I can just picture you telegraphing again (your intent this time). You can drop your hook in the water and hope for a nibble, or you can toss out a net and see if you snag anything. Id much rather select multiple targets, and look for the one that is likely paying the least intention. Or to throw in some more sleight of hand&trickery and telegraph "look at me, look at me, Im in on the spit...psyc, just kidding I was actually in on the nearby La who just got surprised"
"Dive on his 6, getting slightly below him...Blow through...extend for at least 5k...climb back up to my perch....Reasses the situation and/or look for another target."
I have two much simpler and less constrained rules that go hand in had with each other:
Establish an attack pattern. Then break it.
Observe the enemies defensive pattern. Then exploit it.
My point is that though its good to know the do's and dont's, trying to strictly adhear to a by the book rules can box you in to ignoring an important aspect of the game...human nature.
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Well, apparently I left the impression that I strictly adhere to the attack plan I set out at the first of this post. That is definitely not the case.
I sometimes use the trick of faking an attack on one con in order to surprise another, which is something you mentioned in your reply Murdr.
Thanks for your reply