Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Goth on June 09, 2005, 12:43:58 PM
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Seagoon brought this up in a previous thread. Question------
The Serpent of Old I am assuming he is referring to is Satan. Satan is not God, so going on that assumption, could we also assume that Satan could ask for redemption....and if he asked for redemption would he be forgiven?.......or
Is it just a fantastical tale to keep you boys in line?
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Satan isn't designed to ask for redemption.
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satan and hell were invented by the church to make you go to church on sunday and obey their rules.
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satan is in your heart john9001, and mine too. it is built in to us all and it is called the "animal". Humanity and the "animal" are sperate entities existing in the sam bio mass and they constantly fight one another resulting in much damage.
Can satan ask for redemption? would be a hell of a twist to the plot wouldn't it! But I believe the intelligent answer would be yes.
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Satan?
Little red guy with hooves and head kinda like a goat?
What handle does he fly under?
RTR
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Originally posted by Yeager
satan is in your heart john9001, and mine too. it is built in to us all and it is called the "animal". Humanity and the "animal" are sperate entities existing in the sam bio mass and they constantly fight one another resulting in much damage.
Can satan ask for redemption? would be a hell of a twist to the plot wouldn't it! But I believe the intelligent answer would be yes.
given the dualistic nature of the question and the observance of general relativity one might postulate that should god decde not forgive him, god would then immediately switch places with satan.
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satan = ignorance of spirit,darkness
darkness = lack of Light, not understanding the illusion of the material world and the false conception of you and I as not One
we are all full of this ignorance or else we would not allow one Brother to live on a trash heap in a cardboard box in India while the other Brother lives in a 50,000 sq ft house, has more cars than they can drive while blowing thousands on egotistical possesions and events ...
one day maybe we will all get it and live in peace, harmony and love ... just ain't gonna be that day any day soon... in the meantime say hello to your own satan, we all carry it around
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locks a bunch of interesting threads to don't he?
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Originally posted by Goth
Is it just a fantastical tale to keep you boys in line?
Bingo.
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Originally posted by john9001
satan and hell were invented by the church to make you go to church on sunday and obey their rules.
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Originally posted by JB88
given the dualistic nature of the question and the observance of general relativity one might postulate that should god decde not forgive him, god would then immediately switch places with satan.
:lol
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What the hell did I do now??????????????
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Originally posted by Goth
Seagoon brought this up in a previous thread. Question------
The Serpent of Old I am assuming he is referring to is Satan. Satan is not God, so going on that assumption, could we also assume that Satan could ask for redemption....and if he asked for redemption would he be forgiven?.......or
Is it just a fantastical tale to keep you boys in line?
no, he's not a man. he doesn't play by the smae rules as us.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
no, he's not a man. he doesn't play by the smae rules as us.
Not a man, just a "he"?
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Originally posted by Goth
Seagoon brought this up in a previous thread. Question------
The Serpent of Old I am assuming he is referring to is Satan. Satan is not God, so going on that assumption, could we also assume that Satan could ask for redemption....and if he asked for redemption would he be forgiven?.......or
Is it just a fantastical tale to keep you boys in line?
unbelievable, tell me if you want them filleted or if you intend to roast them. kudos to you sir.
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Originally posted by storch
unbelievable, tell me if you want them filleted or if you intend to roast them. kudos to you sir.
I'll be honest Storch....I'm not trolling here...and I have seen enough religious threads locked to know this could be in danger itslf by its mere content...however, I was honest in my approach in getting a general feeling from some people.
I am actually please with the answers so far. It's a philosophical question I have asked myself.....and I still don't know if I have fully explored it yet.
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If I were God, and the Devil wanted to play ball again, I'd say sure. What the hell. Keep your friends close. Keep your enemies closer.
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The hell with that, if it's my ball; I'm takin it and going home if either one of 'em shows up.
'screw me once, shame on you. screw me twice....'
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(Wherein Toad chimes in to claim that Blitz is in fact the Serpent of God. Out of nowhere. He then deletes the post, but not before I ask: )
Blitz of the "redicleousous" fame?
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(Wherein Toad says something about Blitz being TSoS, and I ask: )
What's TSoO?
Anyways, what he said in every post was "Iraq a threat to the USA? It's redikleoussous." (before the invasion)
Too bad about the language barrier. That kid got the snot beat out of him on a daily basis by the proud 101st Fighting Keyboarders. It was ugly.
But, hey, turns out.... well, we all know who was right and who was wrong.
And.... now Blitz is gone.
(Wherein Toad deletes all his posts, and advises me to do the same. Toad - if you don't want me to ask what the hell yer talking about by raising an off-topic subject, don't raise it.)
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Originally posted by VOR
Not a man, just a "he"?
what's your point?
my birds a 'he' but not a man. 'he' is a designation of gender, not species.
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Hey! We have a nice safe religious topic underway here, and you guys are trying to derail it with nasty politics. No good can come from that.:mad:
Charon
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All of this metaphorical stuff like "Darkness" and "Ignorance of spirit" were applied by man to try to explain the evilness of Satan. Satan can do whatever he likes and isn't bound by the confines of our definitions.
Plus God doesn't have to forgive anyone. While I don't agree that religion and Satan are a means to "Keep people in line," the idea that all who ask for redemption recieve is to try to gain more members. It's utter nonsense actually.
Anyone who willingly does something will never truly be sorry for having done it. If they are sorry, they wouldn't have done it in the first place.
To quote a friend's profile, "People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent."
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Hmmmm...
God is holding "3 Kings, a Queen of Hearts and an Ace of Hearts"
Satan is Holding an "Ace and King of Spades and three discards" Bet he's looking for the Queen, Jack and Ten of Spades"
My money is on God.
:aok
All the Chips!!!
:D
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It was my mistake, Nash.
Charon's right; I made a couple of flip comments that really had no place here.
Clip yours and put 'em in the other thread if you like. Leave 'em here. Whatever. At least I told you what I was doing.
This is sort of a 'jack too, so I'm done.
Sorry Charon and all others.
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Hi Goth,
I almost feel like the thread has gone to far for me to chime in at this point with an answer to your original question. But I figure, hey why start exercising discernment now, eh?
Originally posted by Goth
Seagoon brought this up in a previous thread. Question------
The Serpent of Old I am assuming he is referring to is Satan. Satan is not God, so going on that assumption, could we also assume that Satan could ask for redemption....and if he asked for redemption would he be forgiven?.......or
Is it just a fantastical tale to keep you boys in line?
The "Serpent of Old" is indeed Satan. This particular title (ho ophis ho archaios) hails from Revelation 12:9 and 20:2. It refers of course to the Devil's role in the Fall of man from Genesis 3 when he assumed the form of a snake in order to tempt Adam and Eve with the lie that they could be "as God" if they would simply rebel against Him and His Law.
There is no possibility of Redemption for the Devil. In fact, Hell is spoken of as a place of eternal torment designed from the very beginning for the Devil and his angels and those who would follow him in rebellion against God.
For instance, Christ speaking of the final judgment declares that he will say to the damned: "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41) and his doom is assured: "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10) in fact the Bible specifically states that this is why his bitterness towards God's creation is particularly accute: "Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." (Rev. 12:12)
The reason why the Bible tells us he has no possibility of turning or redemption is that his heart is entirely given over to rebellion against God, and Christ did not atone for his sins or the sins of his fallen angels on the cross*, therefore there is no possibility of his heart changing and him turning. His fate is absolutely sealed, but he is determined that he will not suffer alone. Rather like the bitter "scorched earth" desire of Hitler except on a scale monumentally more vast.
- SEAGOON
* Christ's work of redemption has two parts, usually described by theologians as his active and passive obedience. His active obedience consisted of his taking on a human nature and keeping God's law perfectly, by which he also remained the perfect and sinless sacrifice. While his passive obedience consisted of his dying on the cross by which he endured the righteous judgment of the Father for the sins of all "His Sheep" thus suffering the punishment due to them for their rebellion. The redeemed therefore have their sins paid for in full by Christ, and in the place of their imperfect righteousness, have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them. Thus, when God looks at the redeemed, He sees not their sins and failures, but the perfect righteousness of His own dear Son, Jesus. This is perhaps summed up most succinctly in 2 Cor. 5:21 which states:
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
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Wow, politics AND religion in one handy thread.
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Sooo are Democrats beyond redemption or can they be saved - any public figures that the mob feels are beyond redemption - say like ex Pres Clinton for instance?
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Thanks Seagoon...
I know the whole hell eternity thing.....and I know Christ did not die for Satans atonement, but.........
God is and was omnipotent, so is it safe to assume that Satan was designed as he was by God for the expressed purpose that he serves.
And, if you go on that assumption, either you have to agree that God has a cruel streak or there is a chance for the old dancing fool below.
Thinking strictly bound by Christian scripture, I cannot accept the rules laid down in print (The Bible).
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Seagoon
Isn't it possible that we are in hell right now? Some of us in a more intense version than others possibly due to our actions in this & previous lives? That living for and in a materialistic manner is serving "satan" instead of living in a selfless manner and serving our fellow man which would be an enlighten lifestyle. And that by living in such an unselfish manner, as taught by just about all religious/enlightened beings though history, while concentrating on tuning out the outside world, realizing it's temporary and illusional nature, while quieting our "monkey mind" through prayer and meditation to find and experience the Divine within us all would lead us to a state of Peace, Bliss, Love and Understanding beyond mortal description is then "entering into the Kingdom of God", Heaven? IMO, you don’t half to die to get there and just by dying, doesn’t get you a pass to enter it .
Sorry, I just cannot buy the idea that we are judged for Eternity based on, what is comparison is not even a mere flicker of time, what 80 years if you are lucky? And I do not see the justification, the cause and effect, of someone committing a horrendous "Sin" (take your pick here) and then being forgiven just because he thinks he truly asks for it or takes "Christ as His Savior". Nope, I think he'll have to pay for that action, when he least expects it, through the laws of Karma.
A Christian path to the Divine is way better than no path at all but IMO it is not the only path that leads to that Location. The most important thing is for one to realize they are all indeed on that Journey, that material things will never make us truly happy and to turn within oneself and try to locate the Divine drop within each of us that is actually part of, now and always will be, the same Omnipresent Holiness which we are not aware of as we are fooled into believing we are separate from each other by our ignorant egos and never ending thoughts produced by our untrained monkey mind.
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I was joking a bit Toad. I probably shouldnt have erased my diversion on Satan, Joseph Stalin and the Katyn Forest massacre with the follow up on Jesus and the 2nd ammendment :)
Charon
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'llo again all,
Schaden: There is a certain way to tell that someone is beyond redemption, namely they stop breathing and rapidly assume room temperature. This condition, known as "being dead" is the only permanent and unchangeable impediment to salvation, and not nationality, race, political affiliation, past history, sins committed, or anything else.
If Christ can save a man from the most self-righteous and self-serving political party in Judea, a man who zealously persecuted, tortured, and imprisoned innocents, and confessed to having made himself a willing accomplice to the brutal murder of holy and selfless man (Acts 22:20), and not only save him but make him into one of his greatest and most useful servants, then even the inside the beltway mob are a doddle by comparison. Forget Paul, He can save me...
Goth: It was a good question, and one that has attracted no little speculation in the past. But, as you note, the answer I gave was what the scripture teaches on the subject, and that which my conscience is bound to. A couplah brief notes though, many things God is - longsuffering, righteous, Holy, merciful, just, etc. but cruel isn't one of them. Everyone in creation, including the fallen angels will receive one of two things, either mercy or perfect justice. The punishment that Satan receives will be just and fitting considering his actions. Also, we need to remember that God is not compelled to grant mercy to anyone, in fact, we need to remember that the price of doing so, was paid for by his Son discharging their debt. Mercy is the most costly and precious gift God can give.
Eagler: As you probably know, I spent 23 years of my life playing at being the god of my own universe, making up the rules as I went along, playing mix and match with various philosophies and religions, speculating endlessly, and ultimately making my own fickle preferences, self-serving desires, and subjective opinions the final arbiter of all things. That process ended in 1993 when I became a follower of Christ (although it obviously isn't finished yet, I still have the remnants of rebellion at work in me), and in acknowledging his Lordship over my life, I said you are God, not I, and I will trust your word, not my speculations.
As a pastor, I am literally called to be an ambassador of Christ, and to deliver only the words of the King, which I strive to do, keeping in mind that I will be called to stricter judgment based on how faithfully I contended for delivered his good news which was "once for all delivered to the saints" (and that with gentleness and respect). So going over that word, no Heb. 9:27-28 says "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
The clear message of the NT is that we all get one go round, we are all sinners, and that even if we had a thousand lives to live we could not pay for our sins or live a sinless and perfect life - only Christ could and did that, and we are saved only through faith in Christ. It also teaches that both heaven and hell are real and that both are eternal.
I know that the simplicity of this message will sound like foolishness, it certainly did to the philosophers of Paul's day (1 Cor. 1:23, Acts 17:32) but hey, I'm one of those people who believes the word that "the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor. 1:25) and certainly is wiser than I.
Oh, and my sincere apologies to Beet1e for gettin' all biblical yet again...
- SEAGOON