Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karash on June 09, 2005, 01:44:53 PM
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I would really like to see and participate in a large scale CV battle...mid 1942 or 43 era planes. Something like 4 CV groups per side about 25 to 40 miles apart (starting out). We could have designated fleet commanders so it doesn't get too hectic.
How do the jap planes match up with the American ones (yes I am a dweeb)? Maybe ban the Hog and go with FM2s or something I dont know. Jabo would be a huge problem for the jap side (if we even had sides).
Has anyone done a Midway special event yet? Maybe something like that. I would imagine the battle would take long to complete...or we could say the CV group's cruisers have to be sunk before attacks on the CV take place, but that a bit too micromanaging.
Thoughts? Is this possible? Could we get like 200 pilots on for this?
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Oh yea...I would say unlimited lives on pilots...going through the CV ack storm is quite rediculous (I would imagine even harder if 4 CV groups were near each other)
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Originally posted by Karash
I would really like to see and participate in a large scale CV battle...
Has anyone done a Midway special event yet?
Thoughts? Is this possible? Could we get like 200 pilots on for this?
Doubt it. It would be really hard to get the required amount of participation. Other problem with this type of scenario is that to make it realistic you would not know where the other CV groups are at the start, therefor it would require both sides to fly extensive patrol flights to locate the CVs. This would literally require an all-day event, with some folks flying 2-3 hour patrol flights and others just waiting around for the call to action.
Now if you wanted to just do a CV task group dual, announce the locations of the opposition carriers and go at it. You might get some peeps to jump on that.
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Not really, we can say "Japs in 8 - 4 somewhere", and "Yanks in 9 - 5 somewhere"...we can definately say that recon has already spotted the enemy, and that we are doing the scramble now.
How the fleet commanders move their boats around is another issue. I would think you would want to get near each other for some 8" action between the two...but who knows.
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Originally posted by Karash
How do the jap planes match up with the American ones (yes I am a dweeb)? Maybe ban the Hog and go with FM2s or something I dont know. Jabo would be a huge problem for the jap side (if we even had sides).
We have a 1937 Japanese dive bomber and a 1938 Japanese torpedo bomber against a 1943 American dive bomber and a 1943 American torpedo bomber.
Take a guess at how they match up.
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You should check out Special Events. We ran the Battle of The Coral Sea in April and May. It was almost what you're Asking for.
One thing though, until they get a mid-war carrier strike plane the Japanese won't be competitive after 1942 IMHO.
Anyhow, here's a thread with some screenshots in it.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150115
-Sik
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Yea not too great of a matchup for sure...
If we had fair sides maybe we would have to restrict the Jabos in some ways (or just drop the Jap vs Yank thing entirely). Another issue is the FM2 vs the Zeke...how does that matchup go?
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Originally posted by Karash
Not really, we can say "Japs in 8 - 4 somewhere", and "Yanks in 9 - 5 somewhere"...we can definately say that recon has already spotted the enemy, and that we are doing the scramble now.
How the fleet commanders move their boats around is another issue. I would think you would want to get near each other for some 8" action between the two...but who knows.
True, but as I said, "to be realistc", you would not know this. The Japs only found one US carrier at Midway.
As I said, I would not mind a carrier battle circa '42. The planes of that era are loads of fun. I just don't think you get enough folks for 7 task groups though.
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Thanks for the thread sik...I will definately try to sign up for the next one!
I would still love to see a huge battle though 4v4 or 5v5 CV action with lots of pilots, gunners, etc...
The special events I have joined before rarely had over 40 pilots total in them :(
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Originally posted by Karash
Yea not too great of a matchup for sure...
If we had fair sides maybe we would have to restrict the Jabos in some ways (or just drop the Jap vs Yank thing entirely). Another issue is the FM2 vs the Zeke...how does that matchup go?
In Coral Sea we limited the SBDs to a 500 pound bombload, that helped out a lot. The CMs did extensive work with the ord lethality and the ship hardness too, which really upped the stakes. When my side was USN, it took two full strikes before we were able to sink anything. As IJN we had a better time of it, manging to sink at least one CV on the initial strike.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Karash
Thanks for the thread sik...I will definately try to sign up for the next one!
I would still love to see a huge battle though 4v4 or 5v5 CV action with lots of pilots, gunners, etc...
The special events I have joined before rarely had over 40 pilots total in them :(
The Events that have the most participation are the Scenarios and Squadron Operations.
Scenarios only run every 3-4 months, but if you watch the BBS you will have plenty of time to register. Squadron Operations run every month, but you have to be a pilot with a Registered squadron to participate. If you are interested, post a message on the "Squadron Operations" board, and I'm sure some squad(s) will offer you a guest spot in the next one (Which is tomorrow night).
Both of these events generally have well over 100 players.
As for the 4v4 or 5v5 Carrier Duel, I think the only time you might see that in a special event would be the CAP event when it restarts (hopefully soon).
-Sik
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Should have participated in Corral Sea.. it was a BLAST!
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You should have flown in the Coral Sea Battle scenario! It was a blast. F4F's against A6M2's it was sweet! :) It sounds like this scenario was just what youre talking about.
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Yea I am totally sad that I missed it....damn :(
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You guys do know how they did it during the war, right?
They sent 3 different groups at the same time. 1 fighter group, 1 divebomber group and 1 torpedo group.
The fleets don't have the power to defend against torpedos and bombs. One or the other is getting through.
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we did a Midway Scenario, 3 US CV's vs 4 IJN CV's , US sunk all enemy CV's by the 2nd frame.
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Well the idea is kinda neat but the current CV setup is not correct as far as armorment/defense systems and overall number of ships.
Quote:
"we did a Midway Scenario, 3 US CV's vs 4 IJN CV's , US sunk all enemy CV's by the 2nd frame"
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Originally posted by Karnak
We have a 1937 Japanese dive bomber and a 1938 Japanese torpedo bomber against a 1943 American dive bomber and a 1943 American torpedo bomber.
Take a guess at how they match up.
Let's adjust those dates to reality first.... You cite dates of the first flights of the prototypes, not the dates of first service.
Our Aichi D3a entered production in late December 1939 and wasn't carrier qualified until well into 1940. This model stayed in production well into 1942.
The AH2 Nakajima B5N2 entered service in 1941.
In 1938, the XBT-2 was flown. This was the prototype of the SBD dive bomber. Our AH2 SBD-5 has 150 hp more than the SBD-3 in service when the war began.. That's the total improvement in combat related performance, and it amounts to zero difference in its role as a dive bomber.
Grumman's TBF first flew in the summer of 1941 and began entering service in early 1942. When General Motors took over Avenger production, the designation changed to TBM. The AH2 TBM-3 has 200 more hp than the early TBF-1 aircraft and one additional forward firing gun. Speed was essentially unimproved over the TBF-1.
This is not a badly skewed match-up for 1942. Differences between the actual USN versions of the time and those we have in the game are insignificant.
If you want to say that the IJN went to war with obsolesent dive bombers and torpedo bombers, I'd agree. But don't use the SBD-5 and TBM-3 as an excuse, because the outcome would not hinge on the extremely minor improvements they provide. Just tossing out dates like that can be misleading.
My regards,
Widewing
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A few things in AH make a good CV battle difficult.
A. Attrition of aircraft- Nobody wants to sign up for an event, and die early and be left out.
B. CV groups if depleted of planes would leave the area..not good for an event.
C. Searching was a key factor. In CS it was done, but we found eachother fairly early on in eachframe.
D. Arming time: Critical. Planes in AH dont sit for an hour in the hanger loaded with ord waiting for an attack that could come before they launch.
E.Carriers usually burned afloat a long time..leaving the enemy wondering if it indeed sunk. Usually scuttled by friendly DDs.
F.Anti-aircraft guns: See A.
G.Weather: Rain squalls etc.
My opinion is events are best when there is a statioary target, or better yet multiple targets..where many groups are attacking and defending targets so everyone is busy, without it being a mob all at once then over with.
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we need armor piercing bombs in AH. I'm 1000% sure that yank 'n japs used AP bombs to go straight throght deck and explode.
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CV ack is only very lethal when firing at one or two targets. When attacking a CV in concert with 10 other planes, you have a very high probability of surviving the ack.
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I would say that unlimited deaths and immediate rearm to keep the action going. Not looking for historical accuracy here...
But adding wind and some of the other advanced arena features would be cool. I agree Filth, no one wants to sit out waiting to rearm...but if we had a massive battle with both sides upping constantly, it might be pretty fun!
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Originally posted by FiLtH
A few things in AH make a good CV battle difficult.
A. Attrition of aircraft- Nobody wants to sign up for an event, and die early and be left out.
thats the idea behind a Scenario,you have to survive for your side to win, it's called "realism"
with unlimited reups, you just have the MA.
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I agree John..but its finding enough people willing to join a scenario..practice for weeks then die in the first 20 minutes, and be done...and keep them smiling.
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Originally posted by Widewing
If you want to say that the IJN went to war with obsolesent dive bombers and torpedo bombers, I'd agree. But don't use the SBD-5 and TBM-3 as an excuse, because the outcome would not hinge on the extremely minor improvements they provide. Just tossing out dates like that can be misleading.
My regards,
Widewing
And just for the record, Team Alpha laid the Wood to Zulu using the Japanese planes. The CMs did a great job of evening things up. Though to address Karnak's position; the Avenger subbing for the Woeful devistator is a pretty major leap in my opinion.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Karash
I would say that unlimited deaths and immediate rearm to keep the action going. Not looking for historical accuracy here...
But adding wind and some of the other advanced arena features would be cool. I agree Filth, no one wants to sit out waiting to rearm...but if we had a massive battle with both sides upping constantly, it might be pretty fun!
Coral Sea ended after 3 frames and the 4th frame was played exactly your way. I for one was not happy with the MA feel but you would clearly have enjoyed it. Sorry you missed it Karash.
Originally posted by FiLtH
I agree John..but its finding enough people willing to join a scenario..practice for weeks then die in the first 20 minutes, and be done...and keep them smiling.
That's why second rides in GVs or guns are provided as well as sometimes negative aircraft attrition, for those unlucky enough to buy the farm early. In my experience, it's usually the people who practice that don't die in the first 20 minutes anyway.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
And just for the record, Team Alpha laid the Wood to Zulu using the Japanese planes. The CMs did a great job of evening things up. Though to address Karnak's position; the Avenger subbing for the Woeful devistator is a pretty major leap in my opinion.
-Sik
VT-8 flew the TBD and TBF at Midway. They lost all of the TBDs and all but one TBF, which was so shot up it was scrapped.
Surviving TBDs were replaced by TBFs shortly after Midway (summer of 1942).
Without fighter cover, either type is without hope.
My regards,
Widewing
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In my opinion, the Coral Sea scenario was excellent. I rank it up there as one of the most-enjoyable scenarios I've played in, and I've played in almost 20 of them. I especially loved the aspect of carrier-to-carrier battles, with carriers that took a lot of hits to sink. Getting to fly torpedo bombers in it was very interesting -- I had never flown a torpedo bomber in a scenario before.
It is true that the US aircraft in that scenario were better in many ways than Japanese aircraft. This was mostly with the B5N2 Kate vs. the TBM-3 Avenger. The Avenger is clearly better. However, they both have to get low and slow to drop their torpedoes, and that does even it out some. For the other aircraft, the Zero and the F4F are decently matched, and so are the Val and the Dauntless. The F4F is sturdier and dives better, but the Zero turns better. Similarly, the Dauntless is sturdier and faster than the Val, but the Val turns much better and can be used as a good angles fighter even against F4F's because of that. The main effect of all of this was that we had higher mortality when we flew Kates than when we flew Avengers. Overall, having flown as both US and IJN, I think it was pretty well balanced.
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I have to agree. I was one of the walk-ons and the few times I did get to play the Coral Sea was alot of fun.
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Originally posted by Widewing
VT-8 flew the TBD and TBF at Midway. They lost all of the TBDs and all but one TBF, which was so shot up it was scrapped.
Surviving TBDs were replaced by TBFs shortly after Midway (summer of 1942).
Without fighter cover, either type is without hope.
My regards,
Widewing
I am familiar with the historic record, however I believe that VT-8 provides far too small a sample to be considered representative of the survivability of each plane.
Is the TBF a significant improvement over the TBD? I believe that it is.
-Sik
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In battles other than Midway, the torpedo bombers had losses similar to (and in some cases less than) the divebombers.
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Originally posted by Sikboy
I am familiar with the historic record, however I believe that VT-8 provides far too small a sample to be considered representative of the survivability of each plane.
Is the TBF a significant improvement over the TBD? I believe that it is.
-Sik
Then look at history a bit closer. You will note that the TBF/TBM required escort as much as the TBD. What made the biggest difference was the arrival of the F6F-3, which completely out-classed the A6M3. The Hellcats could protect the bombers where the Wildcats were hard pressed to protect themselves.
Of course the TBF is superior to the TBD. However, that means nothing in the face of heavy fighter opposition unless fighter support is equally heavy.
When unopposed by fighters, the TBD could be as effective as the newer Grumman. Don't forget that when unopposed by fighters, the FAA Swordfish was very effective despite being utterly obsolete.
Two points.
This discussion began with this statement: "I would really like to see and participate in a large scale CV battle...mid 1942 or 43 era planes."
Midway was the last combat for the TBD, already being replaced by the TBF. From there on the TBF was the standard torpedo bomber of the Navy. So if we were to have the scenario described, that’s what the USN will be flying. It's too bad that the Japanese didn't have better aircraft until later, but life sometimes bites.... If the B6N were in the game, we could have a more balanced late 1943 scenario, although the B5N2 was still their primary (in terms of numbers) torpedo bomber at that time.
My second point is this: It would make little or no difference if they were TBDs or TBFs. If caught low and slow (where they must be to drop their torpedo) by fighters both types have little chance to survive.
Torpedo bomber performance will not decide the outcome of any fleet carrier battle by itself.
My regards,
Widewing
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If i remember right the scenario first go won by the usnavy and then after the switch by the japanise. So while the jap planes may not be as strong it is still possible to win.