Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Wilbus on June 10, 2005, 04:07:51 AM
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Need advice and compariosons? What do you guys prefer? Anyone who's used both of them?
How much resistance is there in the cougar? I've heard it was alot, too much? Difficult to make small adjustments? How much work needs to be done on the "out of the box" cougar? Replacing pots etc right away? Modifing speed brake?
What would the Pro's of a CH be except it's pretty much gurantied longlivity?
Any and all comments greatly appriciated, try though, as far as possible, to be objective ;)
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I have had both. I sold the Cougar and now have a CH Hotas system. Seriously, the CH kit is FAR superior. Works out of the box, software is excellent , reliable.
ALSO if you have smaller hands you can map the hat on the throttle for views to save stretching for the joystick hat. You soon get used to it. The Cougar is big, not that well made (especially the guts of it).
If I was being impolite I would say it is an overblown POS which arrived with great fanfare and was a great dissapointment.
CH all the way as far as I'm concerned. I only wish I hadn't spent the money on the Cougar, although I did sell it and the person seems happy with it.
The Cougar has much heavier springs if that's your bag.
CH stuff is seen as one controller so can be used in older sims easily. Cougar with USB rudders can't.
Both sticks are too big Imo, but as long as you can do the above with HAT switches its not a problem.
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OK thanks for the reply :)
It's always interesting to ask different people. I've had some replies to a similair thread over at Cougar World aswell. They say both CH and Cougar are exelent but of course they go with cougar.
I've tried the CH combat stick once before and didn't quite like the feel of it, not enough tension IMO and I coulnd't reach the hat at all.
Will keep thinking about it for a while though...
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Personally I think you are one half of the way there. If you haven't tried a Cougar you need to get your hands on one. I have had just about every HOTAS combo ever made and personally I still like my Cougar above all else. I have had some issues with it but apparently mine slipped through CCQC (Crappy Cougar Quality Control) at the assembly plant.
The only thing I have had wrong with mine was a joystick pot that failed (just like many others did) and the center play that everyone was griping about is just now after who knows how much usage is a little over 2mm from center. It doesn't effect flight in any game when I let go of the stick. Also I am going to be changing the "gimbals" over to one of the mods that is available but only because I want to eliminate the "flat" transition spots at the 12,3,6 & 9 positions.
I haven't tried the newest CH software but previous versions had nothing on Foxy. Simply put if you get a chance try one that hasn't been modified and try one that has if possible.
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I have a Cougar that I used exclusivly for about 2 years, installed cub pilots Hall effect Sensor (which are great) and have put it in the closet with the rest of my joystick museum. This was done simply out of frustration with of little issues of mine. And have since been using an old X45. But... I keep looking at the CH stuff at Frys (fighterstick and throttle) The one thing that strikes me as "different" about the CH stick is the + point where its neutral. How does that feel when flying/fighting? with most other stick you have dont have a physical hardware meeting point at the axis like that. How does the fine control of lining up a shot, or landing feel as opposed to a standard open spring center?
btw, if anyone wants a deal on a cougar....
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i have smaller hands and have a CH fighterstick
it is a major strain to reach the hat with your thumb, and it is a funky shaped button. i looked for a mod to make it a softer or more flat button, but no go.
i also can't reach the "fire" button on the top well (the red one)
it has 3 hats on the top of the stick, 2 4-way and 1 8-way. what i did was map my secondary fire to DOWN on one of the hats.
i never used a cougar, i came from an x45 (i still use the x45 throttle in game for the rotary trim, and stuff)
the CH stick was a huge difference in resistence. my x45 got "sticky" but the spring was still ALOT tighter than the CH. the CH felt like there was nothing resisting my pushing the stick full deflection. something odd to get used to myself. it felt like one of those microsoft sticks at first (i always HATED that loose feeling)
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Ok thanks all, lots to think about and consider :)
Never did like the loose feeling of the CH either, had the chance to try a combat stick a year or two back and couldn't reach the secondary fire button very well either and definatly didn't like the pointy hat. Only felt on the cougar for a brief moment, not enough to give me a good idea of it.
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Originally posted by JimBear
btw, if anyone wants a deal on a cougar....
JimBear let me know what your deal is for the Cougar. email.....reschke@gmail.com
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I had the same problem with the hat and second fire button. It's easy to remap to another button.
I wish though someone would make a stick that was ergonomic. This "F 16 replica" is kids stuff.
The most ergonomic stick is the Thrustmaster Afterburner. Beautifully shaped and buttons that just fall to finget and thumb.
Trouble is it's a budget stick and doesn't last.
By the way Wilbus, you realise you've opened a whole can of worms here :D
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Originally posted by JimBear
The one thing that strikes me as "different" about the CH stick is the + point where its neutral. How does that feel when flying/fighting?
suprisingly i like it. you really can "feel" what you are doing, and it helps in learning control of the plane i think.
it does take a bit to get used to, but in the long run i think it has helped make me a better pilot.
Wilbus, it is not as loose as the MS, but it is loose. i have gotten used to it now, and with the large base of the grip it is actually rather comfortable to fly with (except for the button thing)
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LOL Fogold, yes I'm beginning to realise that now :)
I'm starting to fall for the Cougar, like I said, the combatstick doens't fit my hand AT ALL and it's got mostly 4-way POV hats, something I am not too fond of.
CH has a longlivety no other company can compete with, which is the major reason to chose CH gear IMO.
Cougar has alot more customization capabilities, more 8-way hats, possible new sticks in the future etc but I'm pretty damn sure it will never last as long as a CH product. Of course, one can order new pots and mod it for quite some time and thus keeping it alive.
I've asked around on Cougar world aswell, specially about the small hand issue aswell as the "bugs" with the stick (pot problems and speed brake). The pot problem has been fixed since serial number 11,500 I found out, new good pots which last longer have replaced the old ones. The small hand issue was not a real isse, you're expected to move the hand up and down, as in a real F16 obviously... will take time to get used to but so will a HOTAS.
More comments, reviews etc welcome, can of worms you say? I haven't gotten started yet :P
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Got at 1st a sidewinder (RIP) next a X36 (RIP)
Then I had one of the 1st cougar it was crappy I had all the troubles possible (dieing pots ,center play broke brake buton...) and feeling was well ... pathetic ?
All in 3 weeks of AH.
I found a guy idiot enought to buy mine and put 400€ more on mods and now he is happy (and poor :D) Falcon player.
Next I got a X45 (RIP)
A bit pissed by my joystick experiences I got a complete CH setup : this is THE tool !
Feeling is great ,it beat foxy for programmation and easy of programmation Bob Church is very responsive
I've big hand so I'v no trouble reaching all hat and buton but for my daughter (5 years old) I made a "prothesis" I can duct tape on the stick so she can reach the hat.
I'll post a pict if I can find a digital camera.
Seriously I won't consider a Cougar it's to pricey.
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Got a X? X45?
Anybody know anything about the X52?
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ARGH! So freaking hard to know which one will be best for me. Very many people with the Cougar are happy, and there are also those who are unhappy with it.
Never heard anyone who's unhappy with the CH stuff. Still, I couldn't reach the Hat as I wanted to...
ARGH.
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posted too soon Wil :)
Sorry :p
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Ok thanks all, lots to think about and consider :)
dont forget thrusmaster makes some good stick too
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look at this Willbus (on page 2 there is a small hand prothesys ;)) http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=250&hl=
Btw each time someone buy a Cougar God kill a Ta152 !
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
dont forget thrusmaster makes some good stick too
thats the cougar we are discussing
LOL
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
dont forget thrusmaster makes some good stick too
At one time I would have agreed with you, but everything I've seen them make in the last few years just plain sucks.
Btw, I dont use the fancy CH Fighterstick that alot of these guys are using, I have an old Flightstick Pro. It only has 4 buttons and one hat, but everything is reachable, the stick is heavy and fits good in my hand. I wish I still had the throttle, I sold mine a few years ago when I wasnt flying anymore and needed the cash. The extra buttons on the throttle made up for the lack on the stick. Still, I prefer it to the fancier Fighterstick. Of course all my stuff is still analog lol.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Got a X? X45?
Anybody know anything about the X52?
x45 is great, thought many complain about the throw of the rocker for the rudder.
if you have pedals it is no problem then.
i use my rocker for to look behind me better.
some have complained that the x45 hat switches wear out, i never had a problem and used the stick heavily for almost 2 years.
i hear the x52 has some odd button / rotary placements, i felt it at the store once, just for a few seconds, and it was "different"
run to best buy and check it out.
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Wilbus, the CH sticks are virtually the same size as the Cougar, so don't make a decision betwen the two on that issue. The only thing is, as I said, you can map the CHl hat switch to the throttle which saves all that stretching.
Stretching for the hat was a real issue for me on the Cougar, even though I have medium/large hands. If there's one control that has to be easy and intuitive it's the view.
If you have the $ the choice is between CH, Cougar and probably the x52 of which I have no experience.
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I couldn't stand the way the CH throttle moves and that is why I tossed mine back into the sea of happy hands and went back to my old F-16 FLCS/TQS setup before I got the Cougar setup.
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Ok, still looking at both of them. Read a review (http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ch_products_saitek_x52_review/) comparing the X52 and CH HOTAS setup.
This is a quote from it: For example, the X52, while it generally accepts more accurate inputs than its cheaper cousin the Cyborg Evo, isn't a particularly accurate stick. It's not something I noticed at first not even later on, but after spending several weeks switching between the X52 and FighterStick Pro, it's noticeable. It's not that the X52 has become spikey, it just wasn't as precise to start with. There's a particularly annoying tendency to ignore the first few movements of tilting the stick forward, and rumor has it that this is actually a design issue rather than a problem with a batch of sticks. This isn't as noticeable in jet simulators, but when I'm flying World War II aircraft and my only armament is my forward-facing guns, the joystick has to be damn accurate for me to hit anything. There's little doubt in my mind that the X52 is more responsive than the Cyborg Evo, but it quite simply pales in comparison to the CH offerings.
That kind of rules out the X52 IMO as the biggest problem with my current stick (TM Fox 2 Pro) is near the center where it is far from as accurate as I want it, this is a problem I've had with all sticks.
Last time I felt the Combatstick I must say I didn't quite like the feel, not enough tension and difficult to reach different buttons.
As noted in the link Straffo posted these controls are most likely (could actually say ARE) made to have somewhat bellow you arm, not on a desk. Will have to come up with a solution there... guess a prothesis could be made for either stick, if needed, though.
More inputs welcome.
Straffo, pics of that prothesis would be great, also, can you secify the "pathetic" feeling you got?
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You know I'm like you a former glider and ultra-light pilot and the cougar is so far away from the sensation I had IRL that I don't consider it worth the price.
The real fun start when you put a cougar owner in a real plane for the 1st time :D
It's the same difference IMO between making love with your girl and raping her ;)
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I only handled a Cougar demo on display at a store, but the cold steel certainly looked and felt cool. I did a lot of research and tried many sticks also. I went for the CH setup (Combat Stick, Throttle and Pedals).
The problem with the reach issue on buttons is that a real stick is between your legs and low - not sitting on a desktop. That puts your wrist in a different position than it would be in reality.
I have no data to back up the following. It is only a theory, but I hope you don't experience what I've gone through with CH if you decide to get it. All 3 of the CH devices I bought were faulty from the start.
- The stick spiked horribly on back pressure.
- The rudders had uneven pressure and random spiking without any input.
- The throttle had random spiking.
CH Products has a good quality reputation, but it may just be in the US. They may be shipping the quality rejects or repackaging the returned products for shipment outside the US to foreign distributors. They would not be the first company to do such.
CH was not too interested in helping or replacing the products. They kept telling me that it was my fault (somewhow) and I should talk to the local distributor - who told me to contact CH Products direct.
I tricked the distributor into replacing the pedals (which work fine now), but I had to buy another stick. It was cheaper to buy another stick than ship it back to CH Products for repair. The new stick is from a US distributor and shipped from the US. It works beautifully.
I'm still using the throttle and have learned to live with it. The throttle is too light (it will slide all over your table) and the motion is a little too 'cheap plastic' feel for me, but its better than no throttle and the buttons/hats work fine.
I don't use the software since it is unecessary for AH. It only adds a slight input delay and AH handles CH set up wonderfully through stick mapping.
Good luck.
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Thanks Rolex, I've never heard any such things about CH before although my first stick ever, CH Flightstick, also bought on the European market, spiked quite early on so you may (or may not) be right.
I agree all too much with you about the cheap plastic feeling which is another reason I've never considered CH again although they do have an outstanding reputation.
Straffo, you're right, only way to get that kind of heavy force on the stick is to fly real fast in our small beautifull gliders :)
I don't want god to kill a Ta152... but...
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In the old days I used nothing but TM gear, I got all their stuff as it came out, FCS, WCS, RCS, F-16 FLCS. When I started AH a year and a half ago, I looked at the Cougar and decided I would not waste my time and money on something that cost so much and then needed to be worked on. I went with the full CH USB setup, it works and feels just like new after almost two years and I have not regreted it once. Yes the spring tension is light, but I feel once you get used to it, that makes it easier to make those tiny movements adjusting for gunnery.
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I put O rings in my CH stick to get it more like Tmaster. I also put velcro on the bottom of my throttle and stick to keep them from sliding around. I had a lot of left over velcro from the time I made velcro gloves:)
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Your CH gear is sliding around?
Mine doesn't.
Don't need anything to hold it in place.
The throttle doesn't move at all.
The stick occasionally gets moved some but that come when I push it past it's stop trying to get a little more out of it in say a turn LOL
The peds I have are the older rocker analog type but they work great.
Still have some TM Elite peds but I hate those things! The springs are so stiff the entire unit moves and I would get very little or even NO rudder movement out of em.
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Wilbuz
Ebay, get yourself a pair of Prec 2 usb's.
That way you'll have a spare.
From everything I've been hearing, (and I hear a LOT about jsticks in the TA)
General opinion is if you liked MS sticks your best bet is the x52.
If your going to go wtih the cougar go for the full mods with hall sensors. And its still going to be a heavy POS, but it will fly.
Last, you & I should get together, design and market a new stick. :)
Something lightwieght, sensitive, easy to lock twist handle in case you have rudders.
Good hat switches, and add on throttle with all the bells & whistles. (Split throttle perhaps)
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Rgr Ghosth I liked the Sidewinder alot but time to move on, and I always thought it was a bit too light when it came to resistance.
I've decided for the Cougar, non moded in the beginning as I have no money for that, we'll see in the future.
The X52 seems to be nice yes BUT, the review I read specified that it was never very accurate from the beginning (like most other cheaper sticks such as the Fox 2 Pro, Cyborg Evo etc etc) and it was definatly in on my list till I read the above.
What I want now is to get away from the cheaper, often inaccurate sticks aswell as have lots of buttons. Hopefully the cougar will be right for me but we won't know till I get it and have flown with it for a while...
As for designing a stick, I'm all in! Actually thought about it a few days ago aswell, so if you got any sugestions... :)
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Have had my cougar for 6 months now, I wouldn't trade it in for all the tea in China... Yes I had problems with the Pots spiking and replaced them, the Hall Effect Sensors form Cubplilot are fantastic and eliminate any and all spiking issues. My hands never touch the keyboard during flight other than when I must text message, and calibrate bombing run. True that the springs are strong initially but either they soften up or your muscles develop so that you don't notice any fatigue. Having all those 4 ways at your finger tips is simply a must have now.
If you do have issue with the Cougar, (ie. Pots) It is made of metal and is easily opened, with plenty of room to work, I think that in itself is a great reason. I can't tell you how many times I' ve opened plastic "toys" and never gotten them back together quite right. Anyway that's my 2 cents worth...:aok
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Thanks Alpha much appriciated and it makes me feel that my decission to go fo the Cougar is right. Maybe I will have issues (probarly) but hopefully it will be worth it :)
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Good luck Wilbus!
I am very inetersted in this subject and would love to design a joystick.
I hope you get on well with the Cougar, I don't think you will ever want to go back to a budget stick anyhow:aok
I still stick to my take on CH/Cougar debate though.;)
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Thank you very much Fogold, I hope and think I will be very happy about it once I get used to it and I hope I won't have much touble with it. I understand your opinion about CH/Cougar but a stick, no matter how durable is not a good stick if one does not feel comftortable with it :)
And no, I don't think I will ever want to go back to a budget stick, they are just too inaccurate.
As for designing sticks, no people in the world would be better suited for it then flight sim fliers I'm quite sure :)
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The CH sticks can be easily moded with O-rings to be as stiff as a Cougar.
I have my Fighterstick to be midway stiff between the cougar and regular CH. Great stick by the way.
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I have a Cougar and I think it's the ultimate joystick for me. That being said, there is nothing wrong with CH and you can't beat Saitec for the price.
It has flaws, but this is my hobby, and stick modification is part of the game. I like the ability to program the stick, and I find it a fun and a challenge to make it work as I want it to work. I think people who want to just plug it in and play a game will prefer the CH gear.
I have Cubby's Hall Sensors, and I am considerng getting some Uber gimbals for my next upgrade. I like this stick and plan to keep it for a long time, so for me it is worth it.
Good luck in your decision.
Gunner
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Cougar
Uber II Mod + Hall sensors(best stick I have ever used way far the best)
but man It wouldnt stop stretching springs.
So I sold it for 80% of what I had into it and now I just play with a full top end CH set that costs the same as the base cougar but seems to last way better.
I would never recomend the cougar, unless your a joystick hobiest and not a flight sim hobiest
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The Cougar is not worth the money. I had two and couldnt keep them in working order. ( still have one if some wants to buy it, make an offer)
I have the X52, its probably the best you can get as far a twisty sticks. Its really a nice set up. Its for sale too becuae I want CH stuff. Nothing wrong with it, I just want new toys.:D
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Slash, the review I read about the X52 vs the CH Combatstick + Pro Throttle gave both setups a very high grade. the CH setup got 90% and the X52 got 88%. He liked the X52 throttle so much that he actually prefered it over the CH throttle BUT the stick, which is the most important thing IMO, was not as accurate as the CH stick. This is what I wanna get away from. Accuracy near the center zone. The Fox 2 Pro I have is way to jumpy near the center zone for me, it's not spikes, it's just not very good just like many other budget sticks. This makes small adjustments impossible to make even though I've used the stick for a long time now.
How do you like the X52 and how accurate is it? Is it very easy to make small adjustments (and I mean SMALL) near the center zone or do you often over-do the maneuver?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Got a X? X45?
Anybody know anything about the X52?
had X45 for years with the replacement plans from bestbuy or compusa but last time I tried to replaced the x45 at compusa, they didnt carry it anymore so I grabbed the x52
not a month later I ordered another x45 from circuitcity with a 4 year replacement plan ($5 a year after original Saitek 12 month warranty)
I found x52 to hard to aim with - nice programming but not as well setup as the x45 nor as tight a feel
x45 with peds - a great setup for the money, just get the service plan as you will use it..they don't last
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Rgr Eagler, that's what I feared. The X45 doesn't work with my hands however, that's why the X52 would be better as it can be adjusted.
Maybe one could mod the X52 with better pots to make it accurate, we'll see what happens in the future. Got a Cougar on the way to be soon though and I hope and think I will be like it once I get used to it :)
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Wilbus, save yourself some trouble and just get the CH setup. :)
I have small hands too, but I adapted to the Fighterstick and now I dont even notice it.
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How do you like the X52 and how accurate is it? Is it very easy to make small adjustments (and I mean SMALL) near the center zone or do you often over-do the maneuver?
While I am pleased with X-52 set up, the "center zone" is something Ive always been annoyed with. The X-52 doesnt solve the issue. Its not really that bad in the center but it isnt a precise as I want. It was an impulse buy to begin with, I saw it on the shelf and the "MUST HAVE" voice spoke. I should have spent the cash on CH stuff since that was the plan before hand.
Like Grits said, just go CH:aok
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Rgr Grits and Slash, too late though, Cougar should be on the way soon. We'll see how it turns out :)
I hope it won't give me too much trouble, guess if I does one should be able to send it back to the store saying it doesn't work like it should.
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Best of luck buddy,Im sure youll have better luck than I did:D
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Hehehe thanks, I hope I will :)
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Wilbus if you need some rudders there are several sets of RCS pedals going through the ebay circuit right now. Just do a search for Thurstmaster on eBay and you will see them.
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Rgr Reschke thanks. I've got a pair of old analog CH Pro pedals already though which I've used for several years. However they don't work very well anymore. I eliminated the spiking with some 5-56 spray but the pot itself is a bit broken. 30% movement of the pedal give me a 100% response.
Got a pair of new USB CH Pro pedals otw to me right now aswell which I've longed for a long time :)
Although the USB peds won't be connectable with the Cougar I still consider USB far superior to gameport, and every sim/game I fly suport multiple controls.
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Wilbus,
Looks like you made your decision :) With my Cougar, I have always had the deadbands off. In the default setup (Cougar Control Pannel) it puts a little dead band, so you may want to look for this and set it to zero.
My CH pedals have to be about 8 years old. The were spikey as heck many years ago, but when run through the Cougar, they do not spike at all. I do have to use deadband for these and some dampening works for me.
On Cougar World, there are instructions by Cub Pilot for making your USB pedals plug into the cougar. If you run them through the Cougar, you can do some neat things with them. I can change my stick scaling with a flip of a switch and this includes the rudder. I have a dogfight mode that will reduce the sensitivity of the stick and rudder that gives better accuracy in aiming for the shot.
The Cougar has a long reach for normal hands. I makes a difference how high your stick sits on the table. If you set your stick lower (like it is in an F16), the top buttons are easier to reach. I just use the lower hat switch for views, and the upper buttions are for things less frequently used.
If your interested, I have my AH file here:
http://webpages.charter.net/davegun/Cougar.htm (http://webpages.charter.net/davegun/Cougar.htm)
Feel free to use it, or get some ideas on the things you can do with the Cougar. It is an older version, I just haven't got around to uploading my current setup. I have made several tweeks and additions to it. If your interested, let me know, I will update the file. (edit - file updated)
I hope you enjoy your new Couar! There isn't anything like the feel of the cold steel except maybe a real wepon :)
Gunner
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Thanks Gunner, looking at the profile right now :)
The problem with my gameport pedals is not the spiking (atleast not after I sprayed it with 5-56) but rather that the pot is broken, like I wrote above, 30% left push on rudder gives a 100% response so they are about 3 times as sensitive as they should be, makes aiming very difficult.
I will check out the USB to Cougar thread on Cougar World.
I started using Track IR2 in AH last night to see how it had improved in AH and I have to say I like it, more then I thought. Always liked it for IL2 and Lo-mac but never for AH untill now. This will eliminate some of the "reaching the hat for long periods of time" worries I had about the cougar.
Thanks again :)
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If you should need help (or ideas) for setting up your Cougar for AH with TIR, feel free to just ask, Rasmus. No matter what you might want, EVERYTHING is possible.
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Thank you very much Ulf, I am quite sure I will send you a mail or two asking about different things once I get the stick :)
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ULF,
Didn't you make a Cougar joystick file for AH?
Gunner
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ULF,
Didn't you make a Cougar joystick file for AH?
Gunner
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Originally posted by GunnerCAF
Didn't you make a Cougar joystick file for AH?
Yes, I did, a while back - and with the 3_HCO_2004 soft- and firmware it finally worked :rolleyes: , too. AFAIK it's the only set-up that really allowed you to play AH without ever touching the keyboard (except for typing), and the only one that features jumping back and forth on the fleet's ships and their guns by a simple button press.
However, I wrote it for AH1, and since I don't have an AH account I didn't/couldn't test it with AH2, yet. If not too much has changed - key mapping, procedures like aiming through the Norden sight, etc. - it should work, still.
If you're interested - or at least curious ;) - feel free to drop me a line and I'll send you what I've got.
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Originally posted by DonULFonso
If you're interested - or at least curious ;) - feel free to drop me a line and I'll send you what I've got.
I am curious :) just sent you an e-mail. I have been using a similar setup since my FLCS/TQS for all my flight sims, so it wouldn't be easy to learn another. But I would be interested to see how you did it... if I can understand it :) I thought about programing a way to jump to gun positions, but just haven't got around to it.
Thanks,
Gunner
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.
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Hm, I haven't received anything yet...
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ULF,
I sent the e-mail through this message board. I just sent another e-mail through the Cougar World board. Maybe that will work.
Thanks,
Gunner
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Saitek has fixed the X52 deadzone issue in sticks SN# 245,478 and above . You will have to check the sn number at the store to garantee that it is one with the updated firmware. I've had 2 so far, the first one was pretty sloppy , and unaccurate , the 2nd sn# 248160 is the updated one and is crisp and percise . There was alot of angry customers on the saitek site , and a whole lot of threads over there about the earliy problems. GL
38
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Thanks 38ruk, will keep that in mind for the future :)